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Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance
September 17, 2004
9:59 pm
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workinonit
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"no-one but me will ever be able to see the 'real' him"

OMG if you knew how many times I thought that very thing but, the really sad reality is, no one will ever really know you until you decide the choice is yours.

Do you want to survive or...live?

September 21, 2004
8:32 pm
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twinks, where the hell are you?

September 22, 2004
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Twinks.

You said:

"What would Tez say? That's his problem, and he should look inside himself for the root of his reaction to my statement. "

Yes ... that is exactly what I would say. I believe that the root cause of his emotional 'pain' lies within him. You were only a trigger event.

He possibly missinterpreted or misunderstood your intentions. Attributing malevolent intent to you, he possibly also saw you as being the cause of his emotional pain. He may well have misunderstood the quote. He may well have experienced a painful re-activation of an emotional memory as a result of perceiving a threat in the quote. Amongst my many 'theories' are any number of possibilities and combinations and permutations of same.

But ... what's the point in focussing on the unknowable, when it is our own emotional selves for which we bear the ultimate responsibility - if we wish to be happy, that is?

"Tez, old chap, I have put a lot of thought into everything ... ... I am clinging to something I read, stating that such people target those who are strong, and have integrity, both attributes that they themselves are lacking. ... "

Twinks, I'm intuiting that you are still focussing on 'him', unconsciously or consciously believing him to be the source of your problem. In the depths of your psyche, do you see him as the cause of your relationship failure? "If only he was ... ... ... everything would have been fine" - is that how you see it?

" ... Oddly enough, I have just realised that those were some of the very qualities that I thought I recognised in him, and which attracted me to him. Hmmmmm........"

When I read the words "I thought I recognised in him", I immediately thought that this may be your projecting of part of your 'mother/father' template into him. Did you perceive either of your parents to be "strong, and have integrity"?

"Before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water."

Exactly!

Nirvana permeates Samsara. It is just that we cannot 'see' Nirvana. Once we are enlightened, we can perceive Nirvana. As a consequence stress, dissatisfaction and suffering is diminished to the extent of our enlightened state. But we still have to eat. We still have to interact with the world of form and emptiness, only we are now acutely aware of what 'really is'!

I look forward to the day when my turn comes. 🙂

September 23, 2004
6:49 pm
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Twinks.

Thanks for your sentiments. I know that they came from your heart with the very best of intentions. For intentions such as that you will benefit immensely as time goes bye.

September 25, 2004
5:56 pm
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Twinks.

You asked:

"Did I trip a trigger, Tez?"

No ... far from it. When I read what you wrote I saw some truth in it for me as I was some thirty or more years ago. I've come through the quagmire of which you spoke in your posting, many years ago.

However, from what you wrote, I perceived that you seem to have misunderstood the concept of this parental 'template' within us. If you have then you are in good company. Very few people do grasp it. Those that do are usually people who have undergone intense suffering in very addictive and toxic relationships. This reinforces in me the difference between intellectually knowing something and experientially knowing it.

The only feeling that I had was one of the mild frustration. I'm getting very tired of trying to communicate a very insightful and practical concept with the severe limitations of my communication skills. So ... I simply looked past what you said and instead I looked at what I thought were your motives. Not wanting to say what I have just written above in my previous post for fear of offending you, I responded to the positivity and the desire to be helpful that I saw in your intentions. I now see that you will not be happy until I satisfy your need to know why I responded as I did; so here above is the reason why.

And you said:

"Or did it just make you feel bad because you found that someone you thought was on your side suddenly seemed to have turned against you, maybe never was on your side at all?"

No, I don't see even a skerrick of truth in your statement. The concept of being on someone's "sides" suggests a confrontation, competition, an argument, or at the very least some adversative engagement. When I do find myself in this game, I usually do not like my underlying motives and intent. I generally look for the fear that is underpinning the motives and intent. It is always tied up with the past, not the present.

I do hope this posting satisfies you.

September 26, 2004
11:17 pm
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twinks,

Wow....thinking here about all you said.

My first husband was a narcissist. I was with him for 20 years, 10 too long but hey, I have my daughter! She would not have been born if I had left then.

Never regret what you do in your life ( I am sure you don't want me to tell you what to do but hey, I don't care about that, I am who I am too)You are a sum of your life experiences good and bad and lets face it, that is what planet earth is all about!

You sound as if there is a major chip on your shoulder. I know, F*** you right? Ok it's out there and can we move on?

The manipulative narcissist is the deadliest of deadly. Getting out from under takes great courage and getting rid of the guilt and responsible feelings takes time. Oh, I know that isn't you...I beg to differ. It colors your every word, your every thought and your every action. How did you expect you would know what he was doing? Now that sounds like a narcissistic comment! But I truly do not believe you are. I think you are growing and feeling the pain is part of the process so buck up and deal.

You are doing it pretty well I might add.

You say how does my past have anything to do with this? Where the hell do you think you learned to put up with it? The man you describ is aloof, the come to me type, and emotionally not even close to being there. Right? Somewhere you got the message that was good. You may have even loved the person who gave you that message and right now, refuse to admit it was that person. I did too. But, it was him. Trust me.

Just because you are feeling shitty doesn't mean you are horribly responsible for everything nor does it mean he is. Stop placing blame and look sideways for a change. Change up on that view because you are driving yourself nuts. Becoming a bitter woman? Hell twinks, do you like that in yourself? We all have things we could feel bitter about. We all feel a bit nuts now and then but knowing it will pass is the key and when it does, you'll be a different person.

So what are you going to do with all this self discovery? Are you going to let it bury you or are you going to find ways to understand you are ok.

You said here, "Deep sigh. If only he wasn’t an ignorant bastard who was only concerned with himself... ... ... everything would have been fine. Probably. If only he hadn’t been capable of pulling the wool over my stupid, unseeing eyes so effectively, then I would have bailed out before I got so involved that I nearly had to go mad myself before I could understand."

He is an ignorant bastard but that isn't your problem. You are mad at yourself for letting him pull the wool over your eyes. You would NOT have bailed. Not for all the money in the frikkin world!!! This man is my recent ex. God almighty leaving him was the hardest thing I ever did but the only choice I had, or be nuts. You hearing me?

September 27, 2004
12:53 pm
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Oh yeah twinks, I understand you. I had the same thoughts before I found this to be true for me. It is not your truth and that is ok with me. Maybe it is a method that I can embrace to help me work out the relationship thing.

I apologize if I misunderstood the profile of this man. And yes I agree, an N certainly can make you see anything they want you to see. They even change the reality to fit their new reality as you may yet find out. After my first ex, the N, I found out many occurances that I remembered apparently never happened. Or they happened completely different. Funny how I forgot !!!! (sarcasm)

You said this today, "So where has my pain come from? Maybe a little from the feeling of not being heard, which perhaps prevented me from speaking out for myself, standing up for myself, as maybe I had the notion that perhaps I didn’t deserve to be listened to. But all that did was to prolong the pain, not cause it, as it prevented me from questioning, and getting any meaningful answers." I feel this type of experience is what defines the template. Maybe I am misunderstanding the idea but, the sum of my early childhood experiences is where I feel the template emerges from.

Regardless, you are in pain and that is the point at the moment. Stop thinking and go see a funny movie!!!

""

September 27, 2004
6:13 pm
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Breathing in, I realize that I am breathing in, breathing out I realize that I am breathing out ...

All is in the here and now.

September 27, 2004
9:30 pm
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workinonit
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just the opposite of breathing out...don't forget to let it out!

Besides, you wouldn't know the one without the other.

September 28, 2004
5:42 pm
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The mind is its own place and in itself it can create 'a hell out of heaven' or a 'heaven out of hell'. The choice is ours. It is our last freedom; the freedom to choose our attitude. It's all in the mind. The world that we see is the world that we are 'projecting out there' from within. Why blame others for anything?

September 29, 2004
4:41 pm
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Interesting thought process. It sounds like a practical application of the template concept HMMMMM

Any hoo, this causes me to think about my first ex. Born 4th in the family, mother worn out from the first three. Not expected to have another child and after he was born she had a nervous breakdown and was in a hospital for awhile. His sister took care of him as the oldest child and used to dress this little baby in girls clothes because she wanted a baby sister. They were very close and I remember finding a letter to him from her when we first got married that said something aboutr their closeness and how he wouild be happy with me etc. Not sure about that.

I gotta go

September 29, 2004
8:08 pm
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I'm back twinks...just for a bit cause I am going out with a friend tonight to whoop it up some!!!

My ex was always defined by me but jeez it was a huge responsibility. One I felt guilty about being able to do for him. In fact, I couldn't. I learned I had to do for me and man did the shit hit the fan then...Whoooo.

The more I tried to do for me the more he tried to join in. Damn what a shit. Sometimes I think if he had just given the space we both needed to be ourselves it would have been ok but now I know...he didn't have a self he was comfortable with. I should feel sorry for that but it is his problem to deal with. I don't have to be responsible for that, he is.

Ok there is some of my story. That's the most I've ever talked about the first ex. Feels good.

Hope you are ok tonight.

September 30, 2004
6:33 pm
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Twinks.

No one has offended me. I will keep on repeating this untill I am blue in the face. If ever I feel 'offended', and sometimes I do, I regard whatever it was that prodded my emotions as a gift! I go to work on the signpost that is pointing to some false belief in myself. Invariably it ends up pointing to the false belief that there exists an independent, separate self that is labelled Tez, who can be offended. I then realize that what is being 'felt' is nothing more that awareness of amygdala arousal triggered by misguided cognitions.

Now to give less abstract response - I am presently being seduced by the world of business enterprise. I have ownership of a hot patent on a brand new, low cost, in home, termite, early warning device that has captivated the imagination of the highest captains of the Australian pest control industry. Watch out this device is coming your way soon - now you will know the inventor, moi! This infernal business has dragged me away from the more important job of spewing forth my dangerous doctrines on this site. 🙂

Offended??? Hmmmm! I am 'offended'(says he with tongue in cheek) that anyone here thinks that they can break through this thick hide of mine. 🙂 The bitument road surface couldn't when I fell off my motor cycle at 90 clicks - kph, not miles per hour. So what chance have you lot got? - zilch! 🙂 🙂 🙂

September 30, 2004
9:04 pm
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Tez, so glad you are cyber to me....I could fall for you!!!

Love to check out the new devise!!! When will it be coming state side?

You know, I think part of me is starting to get it when you say,....

I regard whatever it was that prodded my emotions as a gift! I go to work on the signpost that is pointing to some false belief in myself. Invariably it ends up pointing to the false belief that there exists an independent, separate self that is labelled Tez, who can be offended.

....The ego is what gets in the way here. When I might be offended by something someone says, it only means I have not gotten past or through an area of myself that continues to think it is bigger, better than someone else. We are all of the same ilk and to go further before or beyond is off. Not right or wrong just not on.

Simple yet all of the complexity necessary to confuse the ego.hmmmm

October 1, 2004
5:59 pm
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Twinks.

It's nice to read the Budddha's words above. They are so true in every respect. Thank you for transcribing them for our benefit.

October 1, 2004
6:47 pm
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Workinonit.

Luv yah too.

You said:

"....The ego is what gets in the way here. When I might be offended by something someone says, it only means I have not gotten past or through an area of myself that continues to think it is bigger, better than someone else. We are all of the same ilk and to go further before or beyond is off. Not right or wrong just not on."

Yep... the ego, for me, is that sense of a separate self, a self that has to protect and maintain its own integrity at all costs. Let someone threaten to damage our self-image and then watch the ego push all the alarm buttons in the amygdala - our emotional center.

October 1, 2004
9:02 pm
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My emotional center is taking so much in lately and really processing it. I truly think I am relating better tyo many in my life but, especially to myself. I am seeing the boundaries much better and speaking out when they are crossed. All I need to do now is figure out diplomacy while being good to me. I'll get there! I have no doubt.

Tez, I best be off before I start to feel guilty about being late for my girlfriend. Out to have some fun......!!!!!!!

October 1, 2004
9:10 pm
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twinks, maybe this is why I am feeling lucky that I have always been an optimist. Thanks, for that.

October 4, 2004
4:51 pm
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Twinks.

You said:

"No hard feelings here."

"Hard feelings" are based upon the following:

1. Belief in the existence of a separate independent self who has been 'offended' or damaged in some way.

2. Belief in the existence of a separate independent other who has done the 'offending' or damage of some kind to this 'me'.

3. Craving and attachment to the feeling of wellbeing that comes from feeling valued, wanted and loved.

4. Aversion to the feeling of being diminished in some way by someone, something, somehow - albeit self-worth, self-image etc.

5. Our inability to accept the arising, the abiding and the decay of all things; that is, the impermanence of all things including our own 'selves'.

6. Our inability to see that all things are empty of any self-nature and are interdependent on all other 'things' such as hearts, lungs, atoms, electrons, energy, etc, etc ... all of which also have no self-nature.

7. Our inability to see our true nature and that of all 'others'.

If I truly believed the above, then how on earth could I possibly have any "hard feelings" either. If I have, then I am only giving lip service to the above and not "to mine own self being true".

October 5, 2004
2:00 pm
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Funny, I come on this part of this board and feel so at home with the conversations. I only wish there was more activity but hey, then I may be overloaded with thought!

Tez, your post was very orderly. I wonder at this! It makes me laugh to see I am having similar thoughts but you get here and give it an order I can't seem to get to. Am I making sense? It almost seems intuitive and I'm sure it is on a level of understanding I don't look for yet. I may have been frightened at one time in my life by the apparent synchronicity but not now. So, I'll go about my business thinking my thoughts and you come on here and post, and when I think it's time I'll get on and see what you've posted according to my thoughts!!!

Oh well, that certainly seems to be the way it happens anyhow.

I hope everyone is well. Going into a few more lessons for living lately and getting through. I guess what looks like a repeat I should eventually make another decision about.

I'm keepin the faith!

October 6, 2004
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Workinonit.

You said:
"I may have been frightened at one time in my life by the apparent synchronicity but not now."

I suspect that all minds are one with 'not other'; the only separation of minds being our ego's illusory sense of the boundaries of the knowable constraits of selfhood.

As for "order", I only wrote what I 'saw' or perceived at that instant.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

October 6, 2004
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Twinks.
You said:

"I'm not sure what you want me to say here, Tez, or if indeed you are even expecting a reply."

I didn't expect a reply nor do I to this response. I was simply trying to trying to say: "I not offended and here's the reasons for believing me."

October 7, 2004
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Twinks.

You asked:

"Do you think that 'I' will ever be able to teach 'you' anything, oh wise man?"

All the world and every 'thing' in it is my teacher.

At my graduation, for this awareness there will be no perception of an 'I' to do the graduating.

October 7, 2004
6:38 pm
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Twinks.

Fear is the weaver of the web that binds tight.

Compassion is the key with which wisdom sheds fright.

When one becomes many and many the one,

in what place will fear abide under the sun?

October 7, 2004
11:20 pm
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Hello you two, I am reading and seeing in my minds eye the forest the waters the people. We are walking and talking about the complexities of existing but.........twinks writes.."One thing that I am struggling with now is this: once you understand something, at least as well as you can with the information to hand, how hard it is to imagine the time when you didn't understand it. How difficult it is to 'unknow' something, as opposed to the difficulties of coming to that knowledge."

Understanding would seem to coexist with life experience and then are we all doomed to conditioned response? The unknowing is easier if you know what to replace it with...that is the problem. With no other owned path to pursue, the old, worn one starts to look good again because it is known. The unknown would therefore be known if we did know what to replace it with and so lets just assume we know. Fear is what brings us back, fear is why we never try the new and unknown. Once you try it is yours!!! once you try, you are on your way to a new well worn path.

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