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Your thoughts on the use of derogatory words on this site for women
April 15, 2006
6:02 pm
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readyforachange
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Hello, all. While I do not typically post on threads of this type, I have been intruiged by the recent threads which involve discussions of "language".

I hope that we have all learned something from these threads, and I wish to post what I have learned from reading them. As SC said: "We're here to learn about ourselves. So I could ask, Did anyone learn something about themselves on this thread?"

In contemplating this, I have concluded that I learned quite a few things from these threads, and from my life experiences that relate to the use of "language".

1. Words hurt. While they do not hurt all people at all times, words can definitely hurt. Be careful with words.

2. Written words are different than spoken words, in a way. The spoken word is fluid...once it is said, it is gone. It may continue to hurt because the listener remembers what was said, but it is not there to repeat itself over and over. The written word stays, and can inflict pleasure or pain on a more permanent basis simply because of its permanence. Be careful what you put in writing.

3. We are all very different here, and we all react differently to different things. Thus, we should respect our differences.

4. Sometimes what we post can hurt someone, and when that happens we should apologize.

5. Arguing for the sake of arguing, or when people's feelings are obviously hurt, is futile. It usually leads to hurt feelings, and then no one is learning or growing.

Thanks to all who have actively engaged in these threads, and have taught me these life lessons. You have helped me to grow, which is why I am here.

I'm going to paste one of my favorite life lessons here, as corny as it might be. I spend a lot of time in schools, observing students at work and play. I think these rules should apply to all of us:

All I Ever Really Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten

- by Robert Fulghum

Most of what I really need to know about how to live, and what to do, and how to be, I learned in Kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sandbox at nursery school.

These are the things I learned: Share everything. Play fair. Don't hit people. Put things back where you found them. Clean up your own mess. Don't take things that aren't yours. Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody. Wash your hands before you eat. Flush. Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you. Live a balanced life. Learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work some every day.

Take a nap every afternoon. When you go out into the world, watch for traffic, hold hands, and stick together. Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the plastic cup. The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.

Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the plastic cup - they all die. So do we.

And then remember the book about Dick and Jane and the first word you learned, the biggest word of all: LOOK . Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation, ecology and politics and sane living.

Think of what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world - had cookies and milk about 3 o'clock every afternoon and then lay down with our blankets for a nap. Or if we had a basic policy in our nation and other nations to always put things back where we found them and clean up our own messes. And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.

Peace to each of you...ready

April 17, 2006
10:02 am
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WD,

Thanks for the compliment. That was gallant of YOU. I learned more than I expected from this thread.

And for the first time, I gleaned that Lib Brews is where you can "let it all hang out", as the expression goes.

I sure hope you're doing well with your mother's passing. My prayers are still with you.

Take good care,
Seeker

April 17, 2006
10:04 am
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Hi ready,

I appreciate your words about words. They are quite insightful. And I'm glad you posted from the "Kindergarten" book. That's a favorite of mine.

Take care,
Seeker

April 17, 2006
10:34 am
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Cici
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seekerw
15-Apr-06

kc,

Well, I'm glad we both agree that that "c" word is a "yucky yucky word"! It's nice to agree on something.

This is funny.

I spent a few weeks in Scotland last summer, and I have to say that not everyone in the world agrees with the U.S. definition of profane.

In Scotland, I heard EVERYONE, even like 80 year old grandmas, call this person or that thing a "Fu---- Cu--".

But over there, they bleep out the word "bastard"?? Weird.

I'm just saaaaaaaying.

April 17, 2006
12:24 pm
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CiCi.....LOL

I hear that. Go ahead and say the word "fanny" to someone from Ireland....and just see the looks you'll get!

I was out one night with some of my Irish friends who said the "c" word....in every sentence. I said the word "fanny" once and they all stopped and stared at me in dead silence. You could have heard a pin drop! Who knew?

Sorry Rev...I hope I didn't offend.

April 17, 2006
2:58 pm
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hiseeker, I know you might not like me (or my views or both heh) but thats OK. Now that ginger pointed this out, I saw it stand out so I wanted to comment. You wrote:

---------------

For four, some of my intensity when it comes to the subject of treatment of women has to do with the fact I feel guilty for being a man. I've never before been able to admit this to anybody. Feel privileged that you're the first to know? :o)

I've had this guilt for many years, long before I was ever married, and it's not anything instilled in my by society. It comes from deep within me. I intend to open up a thread (not right now) on this subject on Support side and see if I can't come to grips with it. I'd welcome any of your comments on it.

--------

This is not right, you shouldnt have to feel like that.

This is definitely an issue of low self-esteem, in my opinion at least. At the least you shouldnt feel guilty about being a man. You should talk to a conselor. I went to one today. Am already going to a psychiatrist and am in the depressed anonymous group in the city and stuff like that, so I'm working on myself.

The only way to enjoy life and have successful relationships is to feel great about yourself. At the least, if you're feeling bad in any way, that has to be resolved. It can but you'll have to work on it.

Nothing matters except your personal satisfaction, your inner peace.

We can get through, you know. I believe deeply I can as long as I'm aware of it and am working on it.

April 17, 2006
3:10 pm
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hey seeker bud, we are friends, you know? It doesnt matter, those conflicts and stuff. I dont like to get into them anyway, most of the time. I hope you didnt mind what I said above, but you're welcome to ignore my advice and take what you like. We can do it, we can live more enjoying lives.

I was thinking to myself today: Sometimes negativity is so pervasive and seems to be effecting everything in my life. Well, I thought, positive thoughts too can effect me in that way. If I believed I can be positive and have that effect my life like that, everything would be ok. Ok I'll stop now. Let me know if you dont want me to give you advice, thats ok with me. good luck.

April 17, 2006
4:27 pm
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Seeker, by the way, you said:

>> I've never before been able to admit this to anybody. Feel privileged that you're the first to know? :o) < < That is great that you admitted this. Its an achievement in itself, knowing that and telling it. That alone will help you resolve this issue, talking about issues helps. Let this good achievement of expression sink into you, take pride for expressing that and feel good about yourself, if for a few seconds only. I might not involve myself a lot in your thread (if you make it) because I have my own issues to work on (which is why I stay away from most threads). Gosh my head feels dazed. Didnt have enough sleep as usual.

April 18, 2006
1:15 am
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Cici and Lolli,

That is too funny. What a difference in swear words between cultures! I never would have guessed it. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I suppose to be fair and multicultural, we have to bleep out all questionable words, don't we, like "****" and "*****" and "******" (I can't even say them!) ?

April 18, 2006
1:19 am
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twinks,

I appreciate your thoughts. I never thought anybody could feel guilty about being a woman.

I'll be glad to tell you more, but right now I'm too tired to do much heavy thinking. I'll get back to you, though.

Why do you think I should open on the thread on Lib Brews and not Support, just for curiosity?

guest,

I appreciate your comments. I don't have much energy to reply right now, but I appreciate your concern, I really do. It touches me. I'll get back to you later.

Seeker

April 18, 2006
9:42 am
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hi ___Seeker___, not at all. I'm also out of energy right now. I think I'm 40% sleep, gosh. aaaaah. Had real bad sleep. sniffff. Oh well. The day will pass, hopefully I'll learn something or make myself stronger a little. Take care of yourself, remember you are not indebted at all to respond to anything I say. Do as you like. I'll feel better infact if you do what you like. Now is that CoD of me, I dont know. bleah. Ok. moving on. Will try to read that self-esteem book today.

In my real bad moods like right now, I feel sort of the same way you do, that I dont have anything exciting to offer to a woman and that, I could not attract the one I like. Its low self-esteem. I'll try to do self-love today.

April 18, 2006
11:02 am
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Hi Lolli...no offense taken at all!

I think it very funny, but very true, although we all speak english..the variations from country to country can cause serious misunderstandings!

In certain parts of Dublin for example, the C word is used regularly...probably the way people in the US would use the work "Jerk" or "Scmuck" or "A*shole"...its offensive but not the most offensive...you know what I mean. Whereas "fanny" well, thats like a really really cheap and nasty and yuck word for female genitalia...but in saying that it depends how its said...like if a girl says it to another girl in a really jokey way...like "Oh, I've a pain in me fanny with that"...well, it mmmmiiiggghhtt be just ok, but it can be REALLY offensive as well...whereas...so its the difference between how they are used....although the C word, is actually another word for female genitalia, in Ireland, its used as a name to call someone...whereas fanny, is actually used as a name to describe female genitalia, so its more offensive...d'ya get me?
But...it doesn't offend me, cuz, I know that its used as a term for your "derrier" in the US, which isn't so bad. Irish people, would rarely call someone a "C" to describe them as a loose woman, its more likely to be directed at a man, but even if its used towards a woman, its to convey anger at her perceived awkward stubborn behaviour rather than promiscuity or anything else sexual...

For example, if my friend and I wanted to have dinner in a restaurant, I wanted to go to restaurant A and she to restaurant B, and she was insistant that she would not go to restaurant A, I might say..."Oh, you are being a right C about this".

But, there is lots of other slang words which could cause confusion.

For example:

If I thought someone was really funny on the site, I might write
"Oh, lolli, I think you are gas"
gas, in Dublin slang means funny, it also means heating fuel...in the US, it means petroleum, so I can see the confusion.

We would use words like Slapper, Slut, Prozzy, Floozy, Brazzer, Whore (pronounced Hoor), to describe in a very insulting way, a woman or man who is promiscous....however, there are also slang words for a woman in general...like the way you would say the word "Chick" in the US, we would say:
Bird, Wan (as in "Yer Wan" meaning "Your Woman"), Mott (pronounced Moh'), Missus.

So, there is a teeny little lesson in Irish Slang...its very wide-ranging though, and varies from county to county, and even postcode to postcode!!! A virtual MINEFIELD of faux-pas and embaressing situations, so if I have ever inadvertently offended someone with my irish slang words, I do apologise.

Rev.

April 18, 2006
12:50 pm
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Hi seek,

I thing this "feeling guilty about being a man" is because there hasn't been any men's liberation movement that deserves the name up to this day. The female role(s) in society have been the center of a lot of discussion, thought, education and yadda, yadda, yadda. But you poor guys are largely stuck with role models that date from centuries ago. I'm looking forward for a discussion about this - are you sure that you want this on support and not on libs?

April 18, 2006
1:32 pm
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eve

"there hasn't been any men's liberation movement that deserves the name up to this day."

I dont feel guilty about being a man, or feeling responsible for women's abuse. Sure I showed some aggression to the girl I like but I promised myself not to do it again and keep myself in check. I think this is a pesonal issue for seeker, not a general one. I.e., its only his views, not of other men.

Surely most men dont feel guilty for being a man, so its a personal issue.

Men should be proud to be men, women should be proud to be women. I was watching John Bradhsaw on inner child healing where in his workshops, people were told "I'm glad you're a boy/girl"

_________seeker____, I hope you are able to come out of this guilt. Thats the least thing you could do and it might take time and convincing yourself and you can come through this. You'll need to talk a lot about this. If you think its a serious issue of self-esteem (like I have), start seeing a doc like I am. My next psych meeting is after one week. I wont give up on myself and will keep trying.

April 18, 2006
1:43 pm
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rev

Absolutely FASCINATING! Thanks for sharing...I love learning foreign slang! lol

I don't think we have anything unique in Canada...

skank and trollup...(like trawl-up) do you hear those in other parts of the world?

April 18, 2006
3:42 pm
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Hi eve,

I think it would be better to continue this discussion on Lib Brews, as you suggested, instead of Support. twinks opened a thread "I Feel Guilty" that we're discussing this on. Please, feel free to join us.

We can talk about a "men's liberation" movement there, too. I'd like to discuss this but don't have the time to now.

Take care,
Seeker

April 19, 2006
3:29 am
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Yes, I've heard and used the "C" word and the
"B" word used as generic non-gender specific ways of describing a troublesone, stupid, or mean person, occasionally to mean "you person, who, like myself, belong to a lower class." Probably just the Irish in me.

Now that I think of it, the "B" word is more commonly used to mean "my extra special close friends." Similar to "Posse." That seems American.

Seems to be especially in America that we make a big deal out of certain words being a tool of the Patriarchal Opression of Women. Of course in my world, women are the majority, while it is men who have been hunted to the brink of extinction.

That reminds me...Did you know that in some places, "Men's Liberation" is a four letter word. Them's fightin' words. You just can not and must not utter the words "MEn's movement" or "Men's Liberation," and God forbid you should evcer mention the phrase "Men's Studies" in polite company. How dare you!

Oh yes, to some people, the word "female" is repulsive to correct thinking hominds with two x chromosomes, while the "woman" or "women" is oppressive, patriarchal, controlling and offensive.

"How dare you call us 'women,' when you know damn well that the politically correct term is 'womyn.' If you use the word 'women' again I will file a sexual harrasment grievance."

My secondary education in an ultra-liberal hotbed of feminist culture. Some of that culture is separatist feminist, of the "all intercourse equals rape" school of feminism.

So I learned hypersensitivity, then grew a thicker skin, before developing a sense of humor about it.

See, you can please one person (usually yourself) some of the time. But no matter what you say, you will offend some people some of the time.

If you aren't careful, you end up walking on eggshells all the time.

Any more, all of my closest friends, and I mean all of them, are either Africans or African Americans. You wouldn't believe the language battles there. Again, it is one of those damned if you do and darned if you don't situations.

Some insist that "niggah" is a term of association, endearment, or affiliation, while other's insist it is purely a term of oppression. Interestingly, it does not even always mean a person of African descent any more.

Here's a fun one. When I was in college, I thought it was fun when my mentor called me "boy wonder" or "atomic boy." My black friend rides a super fast motorcycle, and I made the mistake a couple of times by calling him "rocket boy" or "moto-boy."

His response was "didn't you know those are fighting words?"

April 19, 2006
5:06 am
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Hi WD...I've been thinking about the whole idea of men's equality and the like just recently.

The women's lib movement came a teeny bit later to Ireland, about 5-10 years after the US...and the general public were a lot more reluctant to except it. It really wasn't until the mid-80's that things started to change...so its really only the most recent generation of newly-grown adults (Guys and girls in their early 20's right now) who were born into this new phase of Irish society....so all the guys around my age (30's)...in a way I feel sorry for them...cuz they were born at the very end of an era, and raised for the most part, by their repressed and oppressed Daddy's...and have had to learn to adapt.

My theory is...that the disorder "NPD" is a new name for an old disease here in Ireland, and that its extremely common...Men with these personality traits were just excepted as "oddballs" in irish society, they were sometimes tolerated, sometimed held-up as pillars of society, depending on their standing in the local community...their behaviours (typical N behaviour: Lying, manipulating, extreme paranoia, hyper-vigilance, refusal to acknowledge accountibility, selective memory, irrational ideas etc etc etc) were never exposed, because their female kin-folk, were raised not to have any expectations, not to question and to except their lot, the attitude of "Don't rock the boat" was ingrained deeply within their psyche. DENIAL was a way of life!!! Denial was seen as a quality in a person, rather than a flaw. Its only in recent years, where Irish women have started to expect, and question, and rattle and tap on that boat a little that NPD has started to be referred to...and there is still very little known about the disorder. My mothers generation for example, would still refer to these guys as "A bit odd" and thats it.

Deep down, these men FEAR their female counter-parts, our new found social-intelligence and sense of ourselves just TERRIFIES them. I feel really sorry for the non-NPD guys, because, Irish men at the moment, the ones aged between 50 and 30 especially, although they would never EVER admit it, are a little bewildered and intimidated by the change they see in Irish women in the last 20 years. There is a lot of ambiguity in their opinion about us and about our role in society. I'd love if an Irish bloke came on here, I'd like to ask him about it...

Anyway, thats my theory, maybe its not just isolated to Ireland...what do you think WD?

April 19, 2006
5:20 am
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KC...yeh, "trollop" is a word that kinda gone out of fashion here...it would be used to describe a "woman of loose values"....but also can be used to describe a dirty child!!! If you kid came in from being out to play and had scraped knees, a snotty nose and muck all over their face (awwww so cute!) you as a mother might say "Oh, would you look at this dirty trollop, come in for your dinner"

My nana who would have been in her 90's now, would often playfully call me a trollop!

April 19, 2006
7:05 am
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My grandmother used to refer to "loose" women as the "town pump".

I always got a kick out of that one.

April 19, 2006
7:42 am
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It's a "bike" here in England.

April 19, 2006
11:12 am
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bike is funny! lol

April 19, 2006
11:14 am
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here we use "doorknob"...as in, everyone gets a turn!

April 19, 2006
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Ofcourse its funny but sad too. My only hope is to have as many derogatory words for men as there are for women, then it would be equal. If we cant have abuse for women going down, then the least we can do is to come up with some interesting words for men too.

Come on women.. you can do it! Make up some definations for men. "charmer/abusive" is too polite and they're not male specific either. We need tougher words! I dont mean too start a "men war" though but I do wish there were as many words for men as for women. heh.

April 19, 2006
11:30 am
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Hi guest_guest...again, I think this depends on where you live...I dunno maybe the irish are just a nation of name-callers...but we have lots if not more derogatory names for men as we do for women!

Do you want some?

Gombeen
Muppet
Hoor-Master
Toe-Rag
Gobshite - thats my favourite 😉

Rev.

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