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Your thoughts on the use of derogatory words on this site for women
April 14, 2006
7:36 am
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Anonymous
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taj,

{Control freaks! }

I don't appreciate your implying I'm a control freak. Once again I repeat myself, I was getting the group's input on the idea of a ban on a few specific words, not seeking to impose one on everybody. The former is not trying to control anybody.

April 14, 2006
7:37 am
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kc30
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Geez, did ya'll get any sleep last night?

I would hypothesize that it is not possible for a word...a combination of consonants and vowels...to degrade, demean or demoralize another person.

A word can be used to ATTEMPT to do such a thing, but can only be successful if the recipient responds as though it is so...there is choice here.

The words a person uses is about them...their feelings. A person's choice of words tells us a lot about the person using them, not the person they are describing.

Someone calling me ignorant doesn't make me ignorant. someone calling me a bitch doesn't make me a bitch.

They are words.

In my recovery from codependancy, I have learned that other people can't "make me feel" anything. My feelings are mine to own.

Nobody can make me feel anything unless I give them permission. So, doesn't it stand to reason that if another person has no power over my feelings, than how could a word make me feel something.

Responses can be reconditioned. In a world where there are people who attempt to degrade and demean people of other races, genders and religions, doesn't it seem more proactive to change the effect these words have on us- which we CAN control- rather than trying to drive the users of these words back into the shadows- which we CAN'T control.

It's commonplace for codependants to feel victimized at the hands of another. It need not be this way.

It's all perceptions anyways. I read George Carlin's transcript and I laughed out loud. Sew read it and stated that she found it not at all amusing, and felt it "smacked" of "abuse lite".

Well, I didn't feel abused in any way shape or form. I felt entertained. So does that mean Sew is wrong and I am right?

Or does it mean she is right and I am wrong?

Or does it mean different strokes for different folks?

Personally, I feel far more empowered when I choose not to let names, words and labels exert power over my feelings.

Personally, I have friends who are quite vulgar, but that doesn't make them vile, nor does it create an unsafe atmosphere for me. Can we not consider context? I do and it makes a difference.

I suppose if I were deeply offended by such obscenities, these friends would not be my friends.

And if I were deeply offended by such obsenities, I would have stopped following this thread after reading the George Carlin transcript, not continually re-read it and copied and pasted from it. Sew- this I find interesting.

I personally feel it is my responsibility to take care of my own needs. If someone is poking me with a stick...I'm not going to stand there and cry that they are poking me. I'll ask them to stop. If they don't then I'll move. Problem solved.

We can't stop the obscenities in the real world, but we dont' have to allow them to make us feel degraded or devalued. It is time for women to stand up for ourselves by no longer allowing ourselves to be victims to such idiocies (and idiots! not you WD of course...but the "vile" men we've been discussing)

Let them have their dirty little words...they need not have power over us or the quality of our day!

I am woman- Roar!!!

kc

April 14, 2006
7:52 am
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sewunique
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KC

"And if I were deeply offended by such obsenities, I would have stopped following this thread after reading the George Carlin transcript, not continually re-read it and copied and pasted from it. Sew- this I find interesting. "

How else do you converse here without copying and pasting to what EXACTLY that perso said if we do not cipy and paste? the writing and trying to explain would be cumbersome and lengthy indeed and very often here at AAC not or mis understood.

Sooooo, when I copy and paste, I am accussed by WD as "saying" these words and interesting by you.

Isn[t it interesting if we were actually able to see and hear each other then perhaps things would be "seen" differently. Think as you wish. It was not my pleasure at pasting it. But WD just doesn't seem to "hear" me even tho he has admitted he has pushed my buttons and seems to derive pleasure from further demonstrations to make his point to me. This started from a previous thread. Had you or anyone else noticed, WD ended that thread and I choose not to further comment.

This site is not for me anymore.

April 14, 2006
7:55 am
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WD,

I've been going through this thread catching up on things.

I think it was completely tasteless of you to post that routine of George Carlin. It served no purpose other than to incite a riot, knowing that some of us, like Sew, would find it offensive. I suppose you also wanted to impress us with your knowledge of gutter language. Oh, it impresses me all right, but not in the manner you might think.

You've said you're an ordained minister. Unless you've renounced the faith, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Seeker

April 14, 2006
8:06 am
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sewunique
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WD

You can get off your high horse now. I see I will not get an apology from you. Why did I think for an ounce of one minute I would get one? With that, good bye.

and I didn't even know it was Carlin. No matter, it was the same example. I SAID I did not read past a certain point. No one seems to hear all of it what is said.

~SewUnique~

April 14, 2006
8:24 am
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Worried Dad

I am shocked and revolted at your posting of such profane language. It is unacceptable to me under any circumstances. These words are well known, indeed many of us will have experienced them directed against us in anger and aggression. I fail to see the usefulness in re-exposing those who may be vulnerable to this disrespectful, downright rude and abusive language.

I believe you were out simply to draw attention to yourself - and you have succeeded.

Maggie

April 14, 2006
8:29 am
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WD and kc,

If you want to use specific vulgar words, would you kindly take them to another thread? I really don't want my thread to become a vehicle for such language.

Thank you.

kc,

Your girlfriends shudder at the "c" word, you say. I glad you told us that.

Honestly, couldn't you stand going the rest of your life without hearing it again?

Seeker

April 14, 2006
8:43 am
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kc30
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Sew

When I feel the need to repeat myself to "make someone see" my point, it raises a red flag that I may be behaving in a codependant manner, which is very bad for me because these unhealthy behaviours rob me of joy and peace in my life...they get me riled up and upset unnecessarily.

It is not my job to "make someone see" my point of view. My job is to focus on living my life in a way that is healthy and life-giving for me.

It appears obvious to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that this thread is very upsetting to you. That is why I wonder why you keep coming back to it...only to find yourself upset again, to the point where you speak of leaving this site.

Based on my own experiences, it would appear that unhealthy, self-defeating behaviours are at work here. But again, that is just based on what I know to be true of my own behaviours.

If I had not read about the incessant, codependant need to "make others see" during my recovery, I would not have identified this behaviour in myself, which would be sad because what a wonderful feeling it is to just be at peace with my own beliefs, and leave others to theirs without trying to convince them that they are wrong.

It was about validation for me...I needed to prove I was right or that another was wrong to validate myself. Through recovery, I no longer need that. Sure, it's nice when someone pops by and says "Hey, I agree!" but it's enough to know that I agree...my truth is enough.

Sew- if you read WD's dialogue a bit farther up...the one with "Delicate Ears" and "Word Police", you may come to see what I see...he is not accusing you of using the "bad" words when you cut and pasted them. It's tongue in cheek and very clever- he's illustrating exactly what he is being accused of doing, using your post as an example. (again, WD, correct me if I'm wrong)

He reposted George Carlin's dialogue- didn't write it himself, and he used it for the purpose of point illustration and healthy debate. when he originally used the "c" word...it was an imaginary conversation stated by a vile, abusive man. It wasn't WD using the words, and more than it was you using them when you cut and pasted from Carlin's dialogue.

You did exactly what he did, and I think (correct me if I'm wrong WD) that is what he was pointing out to you.

Emotions run high and it's hard to see clearly when defenses are up.

This is a debate topic and everyone has the right to express and repeat their opinion. I just know this: when I find myself getting riled up and emotional, than there is more at work than a friendly debate, and maybe it's time for me to step back and take a look at me, rather than continuing to focus on another person.

I am enjoying this thread very much, but I don't like to see people getting hurt and upset.

I can disagree with varying points of view without having to discredit the person who holds that view or attack their character.

This is getting dirty, and I feel that saying things like "you should be ashamed" or "get off your high horse" is, at the very least, judgemental, and is far worse than the original use of the "c" word. These are pretty personal attacks. Not cool...and I find that to be MUCH more upsetting than any word that has been written in this thread.

kc

April 14, 2006
8:49 am
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kc30
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Seeker

LOL! YES...it's a yucky yucky word! No doubt about it!! Not defending the word here...just the right to say it (and I myself have used it to describe the woman sleeping with my husband. It just seemed at that time, it was the only word to capture my feelings towards her)

As for taking my profanity elsewhere....sorry Seeker, no disrespect intended, but...it's not "your" thread šŸ™‚

And again....CONTEXT is absent here.

goodness, is anyone even READING the content of the posts, or just doing the war dance over the colourful language?

It's such an awesome topic of conversation...I find this happens here a lot...a great debate topic gets lost in the finger-pointing

kc

April 14, 2006
9:00 am
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sewunique
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kc

it is okay for what others write but not me?

You are taking sides and I have been here trying to defend myself. It is your opinion that rhetoric, accusations, flagrant speech making to flame throw out points with repeated words I find offensive and abusive is okay?

No, it is not okay. You read what WD has written, You speak in his defense, it is not right.

Getting ugly? It is already past that point.

Would everyone feel better if I just started swearing? Nope not going to happen.

The bottom line is this; what are the intentions of WD's writing as he has? It is a man's intentions that often supercede the actions. Yes, the intentions of the action is key.

April 14, 2006
9:06 am
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sewunique
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KC

You stated I was judgemental, but read further as was WD, so please see both sides and not to point out only what I have written at the bottom of the thread. Too do that would be slanted without reading the other's comments before you accussed only me.

April 14, 2006
9:10 am
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cannibaltribe
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This forum seems to be primarily made up of women who have dealt with years of variations of sexual, verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse as well as many dealing with codependent and addiction problems. Some are just beginning to realize they have been abused and others have healed to the point where they can be supportive.

The process of being abused in any of these forms means the majority of these women have been beaten down and had their spirits broken at some point in time. The "C" word, moreso than others, may trigger feelings of revulsion and therefore be extremely offensive.

Using the "C" word, in this atmosphere, with all the negative connotations it brings to mind, is akin to being a lily white man blurting out the "N" word at an NAACP meeting where african americans are discussing the consequences of slavery in America.

You may be using it to simply make a point, but nevertheless, it would be very insensitive to so do at a place where people have been wounded, hurt, belittled and broken down by that "word", even if the word doesn't offend you personally.

my opinion - everybody has one.

April 14, 2006
9:13 am
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kc30
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Sew

Listen, it seems you're defensive here, and everything is being filtered through that defensiveness....

No, the point is that what you did and what WD did are the same thing. Your defense of what you did...it's the same defense that WD was trying to employ. (my own take anyways)

I am not taking sides just because I don't agree with you.

I do agree that some words are yucky and can hurt people's feelings.

I do believe that if people were cursing at each other and calling each other names on this site, then we would have a serious problem.

But that is NOT A PROBLEM HERE! There are not posts riddled with obscenities and abuse on this site.

The obscenities used on this thread were intentionally selected for point illustration, and were not directed at anyone personally, nor used to demean or degrade another AAC member.

It is not my place to question Worried Dad's intentions...how presumptuous it would be of me to assume I knew what another person (who is a stranger to me) intended, or was thinking or was tryign to do.

Again...I feel this ties to my codependancy...to try and assume I know what another person is thinking or feeling.

I am only responsible for me, my thoughts and my feelings.

This one, singular use of a not-so-nice word has been taken so far out of context that it's really quite disoritenting.

Is it wrong to assume that an abusive man would call his victim that word? Enough people have spoken up to say it has been used against them in an abusive manner for me to believe that it is, indeed, an accurate pronoun to use when presenting a scenario of abuse. Is it a nice one? NO! But abuse is not nice...and maybe one woman will read it, and realize that when her man calls her that, he's not just mad, he's abusing her.

It reminds me of something I saw on Oprah...calling it "child molestation" when the actual truth is...it's rape. Her stance...call it what it is.

Abuse is ugly. So is the word.

kc

April 14, 2006
9:19 am
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kc30
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Cannibaltribe

Funny, I was thinking about the "n" word throughout this.

Not sure that I can put the two in the same class but the point is well taken.

I've also wondered if it was me (a woman) who had used the "c" word in the imaginary dialogue, if it would have riled things up as much?

Still interesting though...how one word can trigger so much emotion...3 inncocent little letter.

Even moreso is how some women shrug it off, and others are highly offended.

Now mind you...if it were being used to address another person here, I would not be very pleased. But that wasnt' the case...if it were, I'm sure the person would be long gone by now.

SC takes care of those types for us. she runs a clean joint!

kc

April 14, 2006
9:20 am
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kc30
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I mean 4 letters...

can't spell today I guess...or count!

April 14, 2006
9:34 am
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sewunique
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KC

I disagree when you day it is not a problem here, much of the content in this thread I feel is a problem.

Or do you mean the threads overall on this site?

Cannabaltribe

I do agree. If the big nasty "N" word were used here it would be taken offense by many. Same as for cracker or whatever is the word(s).

Excellant point. People get beaten up for those words.

April 14, 2006
9:42 am
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taj64
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Hello all,

first off to Seeker W when I said control freaks, I am not implying, I am saying it! I said freaks with an "s" and I will say it again. That means a few freaks. I see a few but I won't go into it. I just see a lot of controlling going on like last time.

This is merely a continuation of the abuse thread and if you notice the same people are arguing the same point, over and over and it is turning into a circus of who can win the race. And some of you are feeling attacked again. Me included. It IS controlling to do this. It is controlling to ask the site to ban words and even select words. The request however you intended it to be has resulted in yet another battle. To me that is control. Your proposal is absurd. You are not listening. WD is not listening. He continues to overuse the language in order to prove a point.

Of course it is your thread, Seeker W, nobody denies that. But you are not listening to the group. What exactly are you trying to accomplish by starting a thread all too familiar with the abuse thread other than a ban on a few select words? I think that everyone does agree with what you say that the vulgar languange is not appropriate especially when it is used to attack. But I think you are not listening to the majority that is saying you cannot ban words. Censorship most certainly does connect with a request like that. Why would you think otherwise? Did you honestly believe that everyone would come on here and say OK here is our list of words not to use on the site...now everyone, comply or you will banned from the site. This is not control? I do think you are trying to control. Im basically repeating myself again like everyone so I suppose I am overstating as well. What am I trying to accomplish? More of the same I suppose, trying to be heard like everyone else as I tried on last post. Im trying to stop the craziness that created. I don't like it. But with my own suggestion, I can choose to leave it, just as I choose not to listen to vulgar languary or threads I find distasteful. I CAN make a choice. It is these types of threads where a leader type can jump in and set it straight. And at this point, I learned from the abuse thread to choose not to engage so I won't.

SewUnique, we are ok. I understand. Im sorry you want to leave the site. I too felt that way after that last abuse thread fiasco. But it was because I was angry. I hope you come back. Many of your posts I think you have much to offer. It is a wonderful place to be. I guess in a way that it why I tried to bring up the channel analogy. I ok this time around. This thread makes you angry and it is ok to feel this way. I don't blame you. It started to get to me to but I learned something from the last time. I just want to "prove my point" that you cannot but a ban on words. I said it a couple of times and that is enough for me. There is my limit. If you don't want to listen, then ok, don't listen. You cannot make someone listen if they don't want to. I accept that some are not going to listen to me.

I do think we need a leader though one to guide us along so that we get along better and not take it all so personal. I jump on other threads to offer something else. Have a good day everyone.

April 14, 2006
9:46 am
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Worried_Dad
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Sew,

I have long since expressed regret that I offended you.

I do not see that I did anything wrong however, so no, at this time I do not believe I owe you an apology. I do believe that you owe me an apology for attempting to impose your ideology on me and shaming me for refusing to accept that.

And I believe that you owe yourself an apology for using such vulgar language.

Seeker,

I regret being an annoying diverter of threads, but as we have seen many times, no one can "own" a thread. In fact, it sometimes seem like the threads "own" us. Come to think of it, I think I have answered your question.

What you propose would not make this site safer for women or for anyone. What the attitude supporting such a rule has done on this site is to totally knock off course a conversation about domestic violence.
That attitude has also made people feel free to shame others. It has felt like another witch-hunt.

And any attitude that would forbid the posting of Carlin's famous essay about language is, to me, anti-humanistic.

We have recently had conversations about what does it mean when a person feels overly protective of the sensitivities of others.

I try to be compassionate about people's sensitivities, and I try to be careful of what and where I post. All of the material that you have found objectionable, for example, has been safely posted back here in the Liberation Brew category.

We have recently had a conversation here about the use of religious language here. It was observed that many people have been badly hurt by misuse of the language and concepts of religion. There were some people who felt that the naughty words associated with religion, like "God,"
are so harmful and oppressive that they should never, ever be used here.

What was decided is that although many, many peoiple find any reference to religion whatsoever to be an abomination, that rather than ban the "G" word entirely, we would just ask people to be circumspect about the use of that word, and to mainly keep that kind of objectionable language back here in the Liberation Brew threads. I think that was a nice compromise.

April 14, 2006
9:53 am
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sewunique
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Nicely said, Taj

There are several reasons why I am at this thread; personal of course. I won't share them. Some reading may see between my lines, some clearly read my lines, others wil jump hoops over my lines. Some will get me, others assumptions will be wrong. No matter, I know in my heart what I believe and the whys; that is all that truly matters.

I am glad we are at peace with each other. Next time I have a question of understanding, I will ask you before I jump in. Sometimes I think we both do not completely understand each other, but I am getting to understand you better as I hope you do me.

That feels good!

Sew

April 14, 2006
10:06 am
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sewunique
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"Sew,

I have long since expressed regret that I offended you."

AND WHERE WAS THAT? BUT YOU OWE ME NO APOLOGY?

"I do not see that I did anything wrong however,"

I WOULDN'T EXPECT YOU TO TRULY SEE THIS.

"so no, at this time I do not believe I owe you an apology. I do believe that you owe me an apology for attempting to impose your ideology on me and shaming me for refusing to accept that."

NONSENSE, RHETORIC, WD

"And I believe that you owe yourself an apology for using such vulgar language."

YOU DO? YOU MAKE A JUDGEMENT STATEMENT I SHOULD APOLOGIZE TO MYSELF? I DON'T THINK SO; YOU NEEDN'T TURN IT AROUND THAT I WAS WRONG.

This has been a great review, lesson and reminder for me.

April 14, 2006
10:09 am
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kc30
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Sew

Yes, I meant on the site in general. Although, now that you mention it, the only instances of the obscenities in this thread were cut and paste jobs...not anyone directing anything to anyone, nor using as part of the casual conversation.

Context context context...I will continue to repeat it until someone comments on it!! It's all about CONTEXT šŸ™‚

kc

April 14, 2006
10:26 am
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taj64
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Sew, believe me I do understand you more than you think. I know what you are trying to do here. I think it is great that you feel so strongly to want to end the abuse of words. I cannot stand the word either. That "C" word makes my heart sink to hear it. It rhymes with runt. I just want you to see that this issues affects you too deeply and get to you too much, don't react to it so negatively that you don't hear what others say and take what others say (me) to mean the wrong thing. It won't do you any good to do this to yourself. Take a little break if you have to. It takes away from who I see you are on other threads. That is why I got angry this time at you. Righteous is very good quality and I admire but overboard, and you end up looking like you want to be better than everyone else and yes condescending. You can be compassionate if you try to understand, and that requires listening to really what the person is trying to say. I hope you listen to KC. She is saying what I am trying to say too. Of course it is personal for you or else you would not get so hot and heavy about it? I do understand you simply do not want to hear those words period, no matter how it is used or not. Unfortunately it would be nearly impossible to control it. You can listen to the person and hear how the person is using it. This is something so serious to you and close to the heart, I feel it from you. I know what is it like to feel this way and yet I know I cannot change something I have no control over. Just don't lose yourself or your compassionate side in the process. I did feel you to be too defensive. I feel if you listened more, you would understand. I certainly think there is room for me to grow in understanding. I have a problem with others trying to control thing becuase in reality I let everyone control me and that is the reason why I get defensive to people who try to be too controlling. It is a defense mechanisms. It is part of my codependency. I am willing to learn. That is reason why I wrote piece on choice. I am learning. And I am always going to keep on learning. I already put too much time in this but I can go forward now...not backward. Im always willing to listen if I am not put in defense mode. Understanding is very good even if not completely. Who wants perfect anyway? It is too hard to be perfect.

It feels good to say this.

April 14, 2006
11:12 am
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sewunique
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KC and Taj

I do appreciate your thoughts and concerns.

I really do see the picture here and beyond and the introspective of it all though I may not be posting in that respect. But I do hear you and understand.

How I am doing here? I am sitting here as with the other thread dry eyed and with a pretty calm deameanor dispite what it appears here in type.

I had a therory or two before I go into this thread resulting from the other thread's conclusion. I suspected all would end in this manner and views would not emerge but collide.

I guarantee you this; others may not post on this thread nor be able to post here, nor come here, but many do share my views. Haughty taughty or whatever you call it, talk of this nature would have me or my circle of friends turn and walk the other way. And this has to do with no religious demoniations that I or my world of people are aquanted with.

Sew, I leave with the thought it has been "Much Ado About Nothing", knowing there is much more to a play than the actual stage. It is also what goes on behind the scenes and what created the play that gives it's true color and script.

Sew

April 14, 2006
11:25 am
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eve
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geee, folks.

I feel inclined to ask if you would maybe think it was a good idea to take a timeout. Things are heated, and highly emotional, and maybe need to be adressed another time? It sounds like hurt feelings and grief, and Easter should be the feast of peace and renewal of life.

I'm wondering at the moment if this could be another bout of hoydays-are-coming-up crisis, like we usually have before christmas and new year?

Take care, and please try to be careful with each other

April 14, 2006
11:37 am
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Cici
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Word, I'm with Eve. It's amazing how a break can change your perspective. Time out. Relax. no one is trying to hurt you, but when you poke at each other with sticks long enough, someone will get hurt.

chillllax.

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