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Your thoughts on the use of derogatory words on this site for women
April 13, 2006
9:58 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Another source of obscenity is the Congressional Record. I am just furious that my tax dollars paid for this filth.

To amend section 1464 of title 18, United States Code, to provide for the punishment of certain profane broadcasts, and for other purposes.

(Introduced in House)

HR 3687 IH
108th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 3687

To amend section 1464 of title 18, United States Code, to provide for the punishment of certain profane broadcasts, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
December 8, 2003

Mr. OSE (for himself and Mr. SMITH of Texas) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
A BILL
To amend section 1464 of title 18, United States Code, to provide for the punishment of certain profane broadcasts, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That section 1464 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(a)' before `Whoever'; and
(2) by adding at the end the following:

`(b) As used in this section, the term `profane', used with respect to language, includes the words `shit', `piss', `fuck', `cunt', `asshole', and the phrases `cock sucker', `mother fucker', and `ass hole', compound use (including hyphenated compounds) of such words and phrases with each other or with other words or phrases, and other grammatical forms of such words and phrases (including verb, adjective, gerund, participle, and infinitive forms).'

April 13, 2006
10:12 pm
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Here is an excerpt from an interesting learning unit about Constitutional conflicts and the regulation of “indecent speech” from the University of Missouri-Kansas School of Law.

Regulation of Indecent Speech
The Issue: Does the First Amendment limit the government's ability to regulate four-letter words and other forms of indecent speech?

Introduction

Certain words, the most notorious of which contain four-letters, are offensive to many people. Many other people, of course, are not offended by these same words and may in fact frequently use these words themselves. These very different reactions to indecent words, as well as to other references to sexual or excretory functions, make for potential conflict and--why else would I be typing this?--First Amendment conflicts. (Public attitudes to certain words and phrases even affects how this introductory note is written: merely by using a word such as "f- - -" in this note might cause certain Internet filtering software to render this educational page unavailable in certain homes, schools, and libraries.)

The Supreme Court first confronted the issue of indecent (as opposed to obscene speech, which appeals to prurient interests) in the 1971 case of Cohen v California. Paul Cohen was convicted and sentenced to 30 days in jail for wearing in a courthouse corridor a jacket which, on its back, said "F - - - THE DRAFT" The Court reversed Cohen's conviction, finding his speech protected by the First Amendment. Writing for the Court, Justice Harlan noted that "one man's vulgarity is another man's lyric" and suggested that the First Amendment protects not just the intellectual content of speech, but the emotive content as well.

Questions

1. Could Paul Cohen have made his opposition to the draft as clear without using "the F word"? Would the message "I hate the draft" carry the same power and reach the same audience?

2. What result if Cohen had been arrested for shouting these three words in the courthouse corridor? What result if he had been arrested for repeating these three words over and over on a street corner?

3. If you were arguing Cohen's case before the Supreme Court would you use "the F word" during your oral argument? Why or why not?

http://www.law.umkc.edu//facul.....speech.htm

April 13, 2006
11:07 pm
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kc30
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WD-

Outstanding posts! George Carlin...laughed out loud...thanks!

This really is a fascinating topic of conversation...beyond the censorship topic...

My girlfriends all shudder at the "c" word when it crops up, which it does on occasion...we have a friend who uses it from time to time when she's riled up. So...out of sensitivity to their feelings...she always follows every utterance with the quip:

"She's a ----...with a "k" of course"...

In other words...a kunt. She's also the same friend who started spelling "phuck" in email to get around firewalls that pick up on that stuff....That woman can outcuss a sailor- what a mouth!

It takes all kinds.

kc

April 14, 2006
1:08 am
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sewunique
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Alot of "words" used to defend the use of these words in question.

Alot of "extra hot air" to defend points of view, IMHO.

I stand by my position and no explanation is going to change it.

WD,

I feel it was unnecessary here to once again re list the list of objectionable words in question. You just HAD to write them out?

I note it is also interesting all the deregatory words chosen referring to females far out list the deragatory words used for men. It must be a Freudian slip or full intention?

I also wonder if we were face to face would such profanity be used? If (it) were spoken to me face to face as it is writtten here, this is what I would do ...turn and walk away. I will not engage in this talk writtten or spoken.

I made my points before with a fair attempt to share what was on my mind and I am not wasting my breath nor my typing to re explain.

***I stated I felt it was not respectful to me many times. If an apology is not understood and only continued long flowing explanations are used to continue to defend your position WD, then so be it.

Your opinion is yours. George Carlin or not; so what? He speaks pretty ranchy and has not held high regard in many a public's eyes for years. Wasn't he even banned from TV with his talk?

So this is my opinion. It is no longer worth any more breath to tallk about it. Gutter language.

And this is one of the reasons I have to back off from here. I have more important things to do than argue when there seems to be a lack of respect and consideration of other's opinions and boundaries. I guess this is because I respect myself more than I used to and regard my own values as high standards.

Sew

April 14, 2006
1:31 am
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sewunique
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WD

This is completely unnecessary and derogatory, and devoid of sensitivity. I stopped reading what you had to say after this and skipped to your last post. You made your point. Over and over and over and blah.

"Shit, Piss, Fuck, Cunt, Cocksucker, Motherfucker, and Tits, wow. Tits doesn't even belong on the list, you know. It's such a friendly sounding word. It sounds like a nickname. 'Hey, Tits, come here. Tits, meet Toots, Toots, Tits, Tits, Toots.' It sounds like a snack doesn't it? Yes, I know, it is, right. But I don't mean the sexist snack, I mean, New Nabisco Tits. The new Cheese Tits, and Corn Tits and Pizza Tits, Sesame Tits Onion Tits, Tater Tits, Yeah. Betcha can't eat just one. That's true I usually switch off . But I mean that word does not belong on the list. "

Whatever frame of mind you are in to share your exapmles, I do not find amusing.

This smacks of your own "abuse lite" terminology.

April 14, 2006
1:54 am
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Wow here we go again. Let's say you get a cable box and it has all the channels that you can have at no extra charge. It has EVERYTHING. It has your absolute favorite channels. You love it because it is wholesome and brings joy to your life. But the box also has channels that go against your values that you instill upon yourself. The box allows you all choices. Key word is CHOICE. You have a choice. You can watch all your favorites any time you want. There would be the option to only watch your favorites and enjoy it and disregard the ones you don't like. Or you could have the choice to simply not have the box at all, get rid of it but you then lose your opportunity to watch your favorite shows. How sad to miss it right? I like choice. I like it better than not at all. I can choose which channel I will watch Sometimes I might come across that channel I do not like but I can jump right over and get to the favorite. That is what is so great about these threads. You can choose which ones to reply on. If something offends you, simply say so and move on. I don't understand why the continuing arguing over certain words to prove each of your points. Just change the channel. Isn't choice so great! I stopped, listened, said, said again and I am changing the channel. Click. Hope all of you can work it out (again).

April 14, 2006
1:59 am
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sewunique
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Yes Taj

A choice, we have a choice as we are adults and can change the channel.

condescending is another word with well put intentions.

Click.

See?

Different channel.

Poof

Sew

April 14, 2006
2:19 am
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taj64
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HelloSewUnique.

I was not trying to be condescending at all. that was not my intention. I am sorry you felt that way.

I am sorry you felt that you have a need to put me in my place.

Im sorry whatever it is that I do that causes negative response from you no matter what I say.

I felt like I was trying to use humor instead just like WD. I thought it was good analogy.

I don't think what I said was wrong in the least.

My intention was not to condescend to anyone.

If your values are so high, then why do you feel the need to belittle me? I feel you do belittle me on the site.

April 14, 2006
2:28 am
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taj64
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Sew Unique,

I personally feel you condescend to me. I don't think it is fair of you to do this.

Anymore than it is fair for you to be continuously exposed to choice words that offend you. I certainly don't like it that you are offended.

It makes me feel uncomfortable to want to express myself on this thread because of your replies directed to me. Obviously we do not understand each other.

Im ok to leave the thread and answer somewhere else.

You come across as high and mighty sometimes.

April 14, 2006
2:32 am
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sewunique
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Taj

I meant to add what was said above was condescdnding. All the swear words used over and over to make a point is intentional.

You seemed to have an answer to what I have been saying is to just turn the channel. This I can do.

I am dead sserious here about this topic and do not take it lightly as I feel it is demeaning to talk that way. I have spent much time explaining all this before.

You gave a simple answer of resolution. If my opinions are to be taken so lightly, then why do I bother with trying to explain not only myself, but what I seriously believe what WD is writing is intentional and over extentended opportunitunity to flambouyantly throw out the use of these words in a hurtful way, on the premise it is a joke.

I missed the fact that you were saying what you did in jest. It certainly did not come off that way when I read it. So therefore, my response.

I am serioulsy thinking of leaving this site as it is.

Sew

April 14, 2006
2:34 am
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Worried_Dad
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Sew,

I am surprised to discover this aspect of your personality. It seems unlike the Sew I have come to "know." I am not really surprised to discover that I never really know anyone as well as I think I do.

Sew, I am not so much "defending" my position as I am offering mild, well-informed, deep, and humorous criticism of your position and your behavior.

I mostly like you and enjoy you and respect you.

But in this case, I just find your position and your behavior to be really, really weird.

And I experience you and Seeker as attacking me and calling me names.

I understand that I have "pressed your buttons." I remember when I was sixteen years old, I heard a tape of Redd Foxx in concert and was appalled by his language.

When I was seventeen years old I was very offended when I heard tapes of Richard Pryor in concert and I was absolutely horrified. Later, when I was in my twenties, I found Eddie Murphy to be insufferably filthy.

Nowadays, when I hear gratuitous use of profanity by entertainers I just shrug and think "well, that was a cheap shot."

But to me, the study of language and our emotional reaction to language is a very important thing. And I can now appreciate the work of comedians like Foxx and Pryor and even Murphy who got me to thinking about my own emotional reaction to the use of certain words.

George Carlin, by the way, is widely considered to be one of the most kindly, decent, humane and intellectually rigorous of the "social commentary" branch of comedians in recent history. He is a revered elder philosopher and I do not think it is possible to find a modern popular comedian who does not acknowledge him as a good, honorable man as well as a master and pioneer of his craft.

On this site I have only ever used indecent language to describe or denigrate one particular person's husband, and that was male-exclusive language by the way. I believe the man is an insensitive, manipulative abusive prick, and I will stand by that assessment until he changes his ways. If you prefer to think of him as a misguided child of goodness then that is your right--I say he is a prick and I can't think of a more apt description of him.

I wish you could appreciate that I am a well-intended person who means no harm or disrespect to you or to anyone. I do not use profanity for profanity's sake.

And I wish you could appreciate that different people find different words to be offensive. Like the Supreme court Justice said, one man's profanity is another man's lyric.

Some people, for example, find words like God, Bible, Scripture, Church, Pastor, Pope, Minister, Reverend, Jesus, Savior, Lord, Faith and Prayer to be things that only really ignorant, rude, stupid people would ever say, and they find the mere use of that language to be insufferably offensive, vulgar "gutter talk," and believe that the mere use of those words is destructive, despicable, oppressive, and evil.

I sympathize with people who are offended by the use of those words, and I have compassion for people who have been harmed by misuse of that kind of language. Yes, the word "Jesus" has been used as a tool of oppression and as justification for evil acts. But I am not going to hold it against anyone for merely using those words, and in my opinion the mere use of those words is not inherently disrespectful or harmful. The intent of the speaker and the context that religiously "loaded" language is used needs to be taken into account.

I don't object to you being annoyed by any thing I have to say, Sew, and I do not require you to agree with me on any issue. I do object to you making me out to be a bad person "just because" I happen to type a combination of four letters that you do not like.

April 14, 2006
2:37 am
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"Those are aggressive sounds, they jump out at you. CocksuckerMotherfuckerCocksucker. It's like an assault, on you. So I can dig that. "

I don't dig it, man. Not at all.

April 14, 2006
2:41 am
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taj64
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SEW I really do not think anyone is out to offend you personally. I think if you read some of my responses on the other thread to others that are not as inflammatory you might think differently about my own personal wit or quirky way or style of answering. I really do try to see both sides. All is well. good luck in your endeavor to change this.

April 14, 2006
2:49 am
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Worried_Dad
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For example, Sew, you just used the words "tits" thirteen times!

Furthermore, you used more four letter words in your post than I have used here from April 1st 2003 to April 1st 2006.

Does that mean that you are a bad person, or that the point you were trying to make was invalid, or that you are unworthy of talking to?

Some people would say "Yes, SewUnique just used the 'T' word thirteen times in a row. She could have just typed 'the t word' thirteen times, but since she just had to spell it out, she must have been trying to be offensive. She should be banned from this site."

I would disagree with them, but that's just me.

April 14, 2006
2:57 am
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sewunique
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WD

You are not using four letter words in any mild manner; You are flambouyantly over extending yourself to make a point.

I have told you I feel insulted with your vivid descriptive use of these words. You apparently do not accept this, nor have the respect for me I thought you did.

If you do not see my point of view, so be it.

You said;
Sew, I am not so much "defending" my position as I am offering mild, well-informed, deep, and humorous criticism of your position and your behavior. "

Don't put me in the position of your humour of what I have written. One could see it as making "fun of" a person.

You said;

"I mostly like you and enjoy you and respect you.

But in this case, I just find your position and your behavior to be really, really weird.

And I experience you and Seeker as attacking me and calling me names."

I am not sure what "mostly" liking someone means. Either you do or you don't.

what is weird to you is not wierd to me. Defending my point is weird? Explaining how I see things and feel about this is wweird? That is condescending.

Calling you names? Where? When? I am saying I think what and how you are saying this defense on swearing is in poor taste. You would talk to me like this? Then no, WD, that is not respectful. You have over stepped MY boundaries. Hear me loud and clear on this.

April 14, 2006
3:09 am
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sewunique
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For example, Sew, you just used the words "tits" thirteen times!

Furthermore, you used more four letter words in your post than I have used here from April 1st 2003 to April 1st 2006.

Does that mean that you are a bad person, or that the point you were trying to make was invalid, or that you are unworthy of talking to?

Some people would say "Yes, SewUnique just used the 'T' word thirteen times in a row. She could have just typed 'the t word' thirteen times, but since she just had to spell it out, she must have been trying to be offensive. She should be banned from this site."

I would disagree with them, but that's just me.

WD

You are twisting words, you fight unfairly you have over stepped the lines here.

You are over board here WD, I am leaving.

No, you do not show any respect to me now with your bantereing, accusing me of using these words just because I posted WHAT YOU SAID. Nor before when you had complete disregard for what I said about how I felt about the words used.

Don't make me the brunt of your humor.

April 14, 2006
3:11 am
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Thanks, Taj,

I am sorry about the misunderstanding and hope we cleared the air.

Peace, taj, I really mean it.

Sew

April 14, 2006
3:42 am
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Okay, name calling…

“words that seedy, vile men use”

Here I have been called a seedy and vile man.

“ X claimed to do this only for instructional purposes “

Here I have been called a liar.

“extra hot air”

Here my thoughts are dismissed as unnecessary posturing.

“note it is also interesting all the deregatory words chosen referring to females far out list the deragatory words used for men. It must be a Freudian slip or full intention?”

Here I am accused of being a misogynist.

“Gutter language”

Here I am delegated to low caste, education, and status.

“This is completely unnecessary and derogatory, and devoid of sensitivity”

Here I am accused of saying unnecessary and derogatory things.

“This smacks of your own ‘abuse lite’ terminology.”

Here my attempts to communicate thirty years of contemporary domestic violence research is being dismissed as something unwholesome.

You are correct, Sew, what is weird to me is not weird to you and vice versa. And what is offensive to you is not offensive to everyone else. What is offensive to you is not, as far as I can tell, offensive to most people.

In this case, I believe that you are part of a minority. A bossy, judgmental, pushy, aggressive, dictatorial, oppressive minority.

So when I use humor to address your behavior here it is not because I am making fun of you or being condescending. It is because I am trying to be gentle with you. The blunt truth is I think you are being a bully here, and I wish that you would just agree to disagree and get the heck out of my face.

You are the one that insisted on extracting four stinking letters from years and years of text and discussion from me, and using that as a pretext for totally hijacking a conversation that other people might have found interesting, worthwhile, valuable, or even essential. We could be talking about how to identify and help actual victims of abuse. If you had just said “hey, try not to use strong language too much WD” then we could be long over it and on to more interesting conversations.

But no. You had to make a big deal about what an awful person I was for ever making you read a four letter word.

And in doing so, you and others have raised a very interesting subject about language and its emotional impact. It is an interesting and valuable subject to some of us. In America, it is actually a very pertinent and important subject, and now that you have made darn sure that we are firmly on the subject, I believe it calls for more discussion. I’ll bet some other people are curious and would like to weigh in on the subject, too.

And Sew, that conversation will probably involve a whole lot of four letter words. It might require us to research the origin and history of four letter words. We might have to go over court cases addressing four letter words. It might require post after post of absolutely nothing but four letter words in English Spanish, French, German and Polish.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to refrain from reading or commenting on those words.

April 14, 2006
3:52 am
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Worried_Dad
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Let the record show that Sew has used the dreaded "t" word not thirteen, but fourteen times, even after she was warned that the use of such language for ANY reason whatsoever, even as an illustration of someone elses behavior, might be offensive to some people.

Gosh, this is pretty serious.

April 14, 2006
4:15 am
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sewunique
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WD

How dare you TELL me what or what not to do?

" Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to refrain from reading or commenting on those words. "

WD you are badgering and attacking. Stop it.

Ab asino lanam. Absum!

April 14, 2006
6:14 am
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sewunique
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"If you had just said “hey, try not to use strong language too much WD” then we could be long over it and on to more interesting conversation."

I have asked you repeatedly not to use this language which you have ignored. You now twist what I have said. You have undermined and discounted what I have written. Making "light" or joking with what I have said is not funny to me, again it is discounting what I have said.

"Over and done with it?" YOU are the one using the strong language. Repeatedly; after I told you I was offended by it.

Stop trying to accuse me of neglecting to ask you to refrain from using this language.

Counting how many times a word used when I simply have pasted what you wrote in order that I may converse back/refer to what you said is blaming and nit picking.

Satting I have written so many times a word is blaming and nitpicking; I have only posted what you have written; as is the fashion here to show what one is referring to when conversing back.

I do not like the way you are talking to me. Not at all, so please stop it.

April 14, 2006
6:57 am
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WD,

You know that one can't always predict how people will react to one's words. A few words set me off, no matter the context. X happened to use one of them. If any guy at all had used it, no matter who he was, even God himself, I'd have reacted the same way.

I know that X is generally respectful and caring of others on this site. However, even though X intended the word in a non-offensive manner, others who respect X as I do might see it as a license to use the word in their own, not-so-non-offensive context. All it takes is one spark and the wind to ignite a forest fire.

I was only trying to look into making this site a more safe and decent place for a woman to be. I think X would also would support this end.

I was checking to see what the general consensus might be on this matter. I see that not many people are as shocked by it as I am, and I'm wondering if it wasn't a mistake to even raise this issue.

But hey, democracy rules here, as it should. If I'm in the minority, then so be it. I can live with it.

However, to accuse me of being "petty and childish, but also disrespectful, offensive, and unneccesarily violent", is going overboard, IMO, about as overboard as you think I'm being.

Seeker

April 14, 2006
7:17 am
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Hi Lolli,

Again, I appreciate your support of me as a person. I know you have a wonderful heart.

{2. If we stop the "derogatory" words pertaining to women....we must also stop the derogatory words pertaining to men. Fair's fair. That to me would then begin to cross the line into censorship. }

Since men and women have fundamental differences (not just physical), I don't necessarily agree we have to be fair in this matter.

In my experience, calling a woman a derogatory name can have quite a different impact than calling a guy one. You're not one of these women, of which I'm glad, but I'll bet you know what I mean.

And no matter how able you are to stand being called a vile word, if I ever see anybody calling you one (on or off site), I'm going to object to that person. I can't stand to see a woman called a vile name.

I take it then that you don't view a potential ban on derogatory names for women as censorship, necessarily?

Seeker

April 14, 2006
7:29 am
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Hi kc,

{I was not reading into anything you posted, nor did I "drag" the words "jackass" and "f" word into my thread as a result of somehow misreading your post.}

I see your point. Unfortunatly, though, everybody after you then acted as though I was proposing a ban on all swear words on this site, and my meaning was lost.

And I beg your pardon, but it's MY thread. :o)

And when you used the forbidden "c" word ("censorship"), everybody seemed to flock instinctively away from it and away from what I was proposing, and lost sight of the fact that if a critical mass of people support it, it would not be censorship. It would be democracy in action.

{"If it ain't broke...." }
"... fix it before it can break. That's called being proactive." :o)

Take care,
Seeker

April 14, 2006
7:31 am
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WD,

{And I experience you and Seeker as attacking me and calling me names.}

What names have I called you?

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