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Worried_Dad’s Embassy
July 10, 2006
3:05 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Juanita,

Well, if you and I fine by you, then I am satisfied.

And I do think you should consider taking thar trip without your husband.

July 10, 2006
3:21 pm
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Juanita
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Alas, my NYC trip did not pan out 🙁 Timing was off.

However, there is a chance at a different adventure ~ possibly going to Chicago in August to meet a another girlfriend.

My spouse admitted to being a bit jealous that I was offered or asked to go to NYC, Chicago, FLA, and Germany all this summer! Mind you, finances would never have allowed it ~ but it was wonderful to receive the invites!

July 10, 2006
9:04 pm
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Juanita,

Absolutely try to make the Chicago trip.

And don't forget the beautiful and large Chicago Art Museum!

July 10, 2006
9:52 pm
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Juanita
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The musuem is one place my friend has already mentioned. She used to work in a musuem & is a college professor. She is very worldly & appreciative of fine art. (Her parents are painters & sculptors.) I'm sure us gals will try to take in as many highlights as possible, but it will be a short trip. We tend to have fun & get a little goofy when together... the musuem may kick us out if we have too much fun.

This would be my first trip EVER away from home alone... and I am 38. OMG, what a late bloomer!

Dare I ask how things are your way now that things have settled down on this thread? I understand if you don't reply to that question. Hope you & your sweetie are rejoined soon though.

July 10, 2006
10:10 pm
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Hi Juanita,

I only made it to CAM once for a Juan Miro exhibition.

How are things my way.

Well, I am happy that you and I feel better about each other. That counts for a lot.

I am, however, still upset about the ugly things that have been said about me on this and related threads.

If it were not for the fact that you and Sew, the two most recent of my purported many vicims, are still feeling friendly towards me, I wouldn't feel like posting here at all.

July 10, 2006
11:11 pm
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Juanita
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WD,

You have never said an unkind word to me in the past, & the comments we exchanged on this thread were discussed, reviewed, and clarified. Must admit, you got my temper up with the 4 points, but I didn't back down from it either (I am proud of myself, but confess I was tempted). You expressed your temperment when writing those points, and explained how you meant them. That was good. Everyone has disagreements, miscommunications, & 'bad' days in the 'real' world, we wouldn't we here? Just b/c I don't see you face to face doesn't mean I'll treat you any different than if I did. That is in part why I felt comfortable enough with you to express myself.

You are human & so is everyone else. No one is perfect.

An old boss once told me, "The only person who can not or will not make a mistake, is a dead person." He is also the same one who told me "Giving compliments grave side doesn't do the dead any good". (Think he was fascinated by the dead?)

Having shared that last quote, I also say, bear with me if I should revert into old habits & point out your good points once in a while, but sometimes I think you may need it.

July 10, 2006
11:39 pm
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Juanita,

I think we understand each other better than we did a few days ago.

You haven't ever offended me or anything like that. It is only in the last few days that I have figured out that there was anything you had said to make me uncomfortable--I wasn't even really conscious of it until I said it. I think your assessment of yourself as a loyal and loving person is accurate. You have a very warm online presence and I wouldn't change that about you.

I think that people who know and like each other for a long time, if they have any significant interaction and are at all real with each other, will always find times when they need to adapt to each other's personalities, style, and needs.

I don't mind putting in a little effort of consciousnees to be nicer to you. And I can accept that you are going to be supportive or sometimes complimentary to me. And I hope you will understand it can be hard for me to respond to that.

It's wierd, I have so much training about how to respond to criticism, bullies, ninjas with swords....but I don't recall ever getting any instruction about how to respond when people are nice to you.

July 11, 2006
8:41 am
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Juanita
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WD,

Perhaps that is part of why I am here? For you to be able to learn from me & take from me some 'niceness' and warmth. I don't mind.

I, too, agree that I have to learn and adapt to different people's styles. I will try my best to accept those times when you don't respond, that you are doing so with WD reasoning, and to respect that. However, as you are a questioning person, one who likes more info, the people you interact with will in turn ask you questions & like more info too. It is a part of interaction... like the tides, give & take, sometimes more one way than another - but always give & take. People would not ask questions of you if they did not care about you or respect your opinions & intelligence.

Got to go! .... BAD thunderstorm!

July 11, 2006
9:30 am
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on my way
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WD...
This (i pasted what you said below) is difficult with certain people isn't it? Any ideas why? I sometimes have the same wall.

"It's wierd, I have so much training about how to respond to criticism, bullies, ninjas with swords....but I don't recall ever getting any instruction about how to respond when people are nice to you."

July 11, 2006
6:37 pm
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Juanita
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uh-oh...

Look, I accept the fact that I can post a question to WD, and him choose to not respond for whatever reason - time constraints, privacy, whatever. He has no obligation to respond to me, and I have a choice whether or not I continue to post to him. My gently posted question was an attempt to return to a 'normal' feel - I don't "really, REALLY want to know" ... I do not stay awake at night with lack of sleep due to WD not answering my question. If he wanted to open up & share, that was his option. We can talk about other things if he likes, or nothing at all.

I do not have the time to visit here every day & read lengthy posts - so I am definite I miss a bunch of stuff. I never saw ...

""I think she just likes to hurt men.""

and, well, even if I did, a person reading my posts can figure out what kind of person I am for themself & draw their own conclusions. If they think I like to hurt men, well then, they didn't read very much of what I said & I will probably never interact with them as they will choose to stay away from me. If WD actually thought I was hurting him, or men in general, I'm sure he would DIRECTLY engage me about that issue. Afterall, WD likes passionate, direct, debateable, intense conversations more than just 'nice' ones.... and he would especially call anyone to the rug about abusive behavoir.

Many people say things in the heat of the moment they really do not mean... remember Twinks, you told me that on the 'Juanita' thread about someone else here who attacked me earlier?

Twinks, WD ~ both of you have helped me in the past, both of you have supported me. I care about both of you, and interact with both of you on different levels. What I learn and gather from each of you is different. Just like with anyone else I know. I can selectively choose what good points I want to take out of the relationship. If everyone saw eye to eye with everyone else, there would be no diversity in life. That would be dull.

You both possess many wonderful traits. Neither of you are perfect.

I hope people stop disecting my words & intentions. If the person to whom I'm addressing doesn't have a problem with me, or me with them, I don't want to be the stick to stir the pot.

Juanita

July 11, 2006
7:02 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Actually Juanita, the hurting men comment was in reference to twinks, who has done this sort of thing before with other men.

July 11, 2006
7:03 pm
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Hi Twinks,

I stand corrected. You only like to hurt “certain” men.

You have said that you want to know what makes me tick. The way to accomplish that is to read what I have written here for that very purpose and to take what I say seriously.

No Twinks, I do not feel personally responsible for anyone’s healing here. Rather than infer things about me, you will do better to just take me at my word. I do believe that people here have the power to help each other in healing, or impair each other’s healing process. I prefer that people refrain from the latter.

“Forgive me if I am wrong. “

I am trying hard to manifest forgiveness Twinks, because on this thread, you have been wrong a lot.

“Again, I am sorry, but I do believe you have serious issues, which prevent you from communicating in a valid and helpful way with the women on this board.”

Twinks, as far as I can tell your belief is not shared by the consensus of posters on this site.

Regarding the personality disorders described: It is clear that you just do not have the faintest idea what you are talking about. As best I can tell, you are speaking from a deep and profound ignorance regarding that subject. You simply do not have the education or training to speak wisely about that subject, and I don’t feel like taking the time to educate you and bring you up to speed.

Furthermore, your perceptions of me and of the relational events you are commenting on are highly distorted.

For example, you are making a big deal over “the fact” that I did not answer Juanita’s most recent question. But the simple fact is that I DID answer Juanita’s question, very clearly.

Twinks, it is clear to me that your perceptions and your thinking are being distorted by your anger, and that anger is so deep and implacable, so immune to reason, and so quick to flare up that it seems very clear to me that your anger really has very little to do with me.

Twinks, I believe that deep down inside, there is part of you that means well. But I believe that your perceptions and thinking are not sufficiently clear, your emotional life is way too volatile, and your self-knowledge as well as your psychological knowledge is not sufficient for you to be helpful here in the manner you have tried to be. You simply have not behaved as a wise and mature person here.

I submit Twinks, that you would benefit by spending a period of time, perhaps a year, doing your own work, and not getting involved in the work of others. I suggest that you use a lot of “I-statements,” and meticulously refrain from analyzing any person or relationship here at AAC.

July 11, 2006
10:35 pm
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free2choose
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Wow. Well, at least I know it is not just me.

Wow.

Twinks, I see myself in you. Just stop. The arguing will do nothing but drive you crazy. It's easier just to ignore it.

July 11, 2006
11:02 pm
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Ah but that's the problem free2choose. It is me who who is put in the position of "ignoring" things. twinks took it upon herself to hijack a thread, interrupt a conversation, and interfere with relational work already in progess. Twinks has been asked asked to back off she has refused.

This would be about the 4th repetition of twink's pattern of randomly selecting a male and launching a surprise attack full of verbal abuse, unsupportable and ridiculous accusations, and grotesque misuse of the language of psychology. To me that last is reprehensible because people who don't know any better might be mislead into thinking that twinks actually knows what she is talking about.

I submit that if you want to be supportive of Twinks that you would encourage her to be self reflective and to try to follow posting guidelines.

July 12, 2006
9:52 am
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YES, Twinks! Full-blown, horse-obvious PROJECTION indeed. As in so many other posts ... it has become totally perdictable. Don't fret, girl. I'm sure many of us can see with crystal clarity what is going on. One day I'll take the time & effort to post all the "evidence" any "scientist" could wish for in support of what stares those of us with any psychological knowledge & training in the face. But of course, he will then play "victim" & scream "foul" in a mega-huff, with loud threats & appeals to the sc etc, as usual. And start being "nice" to Juanita & Sew, all of a sudden, in a panic - to keep open his "supply" when he senses that others can see through his unhealthy behaviour patterns. Pass the sick-bag.

Recognising & revealing our own vulnerability is essential, imho. It is the touchstone of true self-knowledge & healing. Not endless rounds of castigating the "enemy" in terms of personal relationships. Nor whole threads of self-justification & self-aggrandisment to make oneself seen in the best possible light and thereby invite adulation.

Admiring a self-consciously put-out "image" can never fulfil the deep human longing for Real Love ... as ***NARCISSUS*** discovered, to his cost, in that great & profound Myth that gives this personality-sickness its name. All he could hear was that tragic, love-sick nymph, ***ECHO***, forever calling his self(reflection)-regarding name in vain ...

If WD is suffering emotionally because his engagement / relationship broke up, whether it be feelings of loss of love or sex, of confusion, of frustration, of anger, of lack of control over his personal emotional environment - why not openly say so? All the heartfelt sympathy, understanding & support in the world would then pour in from many posters here - myself most definitely included. And / or, if required, practical suggestions, open-minded discussions, any analysis needed to further understanding of what went wrong, etc, etc.

All WD has to do is ASK.

Instead of "acting out" & projecting all sorts of self-hidden stuff onto other, equally human, hurt & moody posters coming here with their own problems, also wanting support, validation, reassurance, help & friendship. They don't deserve to be engaged with one day but blown off the next, according to his volatile whims.

I don't mean to sound harsh. But some things need to be said, to flag up serious emotional dangers here for innocent & trusting, sincere, vulnerable posters who pour out their feelings in good faith, perhaps seeking a clever male "protector" & friend... but don't see the lack of reciprocal empathy and take his replies to heart - only to be further hurt & their trust damaged later. Inevitably.

It's not my job to protect anyone, I know. But until I'm totally recovered from co-dependent excess of empathy & pain at witnessing sincerity manipulated, I still just can't help it. I must stop trying to "rescue".

I must withdraw before my feelings get the better of me. I can't apologise for speaking my Very Important Truths; but I don't want to get banned from this wonderful site.

So: I meant all I said, but sorry I saw it so clearly, felt it so passionately & expressed it so fiercely. It's the best I can do right now. BB - gazelle.

July 12, 2006
11:52 am
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Until you are able to take me at my word, you will be unable to understand me. It is as simple as that.

Here is my response to the "projection" hypothesis.

1) Twinks wrote:

"I only like to hurt certain men"

Most people do not like to hurt anybody.

2) One common difficulty faced by people whose loved ones have experienced abuse is that a person who is in recovery will usually at different stages in their healing process have a kind of hypervigilance and percieve "abuse" in many places. Even when it is not present. Transference plays a role there.

I have heard some of my recent critics describe themselves as being in a process of recovery.

My perception is that those critics (like many people who self-identify as "codependent") have trouble distinguishing between reasonable and unreasonable expectation, and also have distinguishing abusive from nonabusive behaviors.

That is a valid stage in the healing process, but it is also a stressful stage for people who try to relate to those in recovery.

How to get over that?

Accomplishing that piece of recovery requires a period of emotional stabilization where the victims are well-treated, rather than mistreated, that their feelings are validated, accurate perceptions are validated.

Education is very important at this stage of recovery, and participation in therapeutic groups can help those in recovery do "reality testing."

Refining perceptions by means of social reality testing can be powerfully therapeutic because victims of prolonged abuse almost inevitable have been subjected to some form of "gaslighting."

There is a delicate balance that must be struck between validating accurate perceptions and correcting inaccurate perceptions. Because a victim will frequently be easily triggered by persons of the same gender as their abuser, it is often desirable for recovery support groups to be segregated by gender.

Of course we can’t do that here.

July 12, 2006
2:26 pm
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Gazelle,

I have to second Twink's comment regarding your post......

Wow.....you most certainly have a gift in the written word.

It actually gave me goosebumps.

WD said: "My perception is that those critics (like many people who self-identify as "codependent") have trouble distinguishing between reasonable and unreasonable expectation, and also have distinguishing abusive from nonabusive behaviors. "

WD, I find it interesting that you find so many of us are wrong about you and that we are just confused victims of past abuse.

Isn't it just possible that we may be right?

You also said: "I have heard some of my recent critics describe themselves as being in a process of recovery"

You are absoultely correct. And I, for one, have been in recovery long enough (and DO have a formal education in psychology) to know manipulation when I see it.

And one of the major things that I have seen you manipulate here...is the truth.

Now before you go off on a tangent about how you have never LIED here....perhaps you should go take a look at some of your posts and make sure you know the meaning of the word MANIPULATE.

July 12, 2006
2:43 pm
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I have to say....WD was certainly correct in that I can be triggered......however, not because of gender...but because of behavior.

Reading some of these threads is no different than some conversations I have had with my mentally abusive ex.

No matter how many people I spoke to regarding his (the ex)behavior...ie. my therapist, my family, people on this site, members of AA and Alanon...and no matter how many times that my perception was validated....he was always right there telling me that THEY were all wrong and that I had "misunderstood", "blown things out of proportion", or was just plain "crazy". Oh and we musn't forget the ever popular...."you just hate men."

The resemblence here is uncanny.

But ya know what....when I have a half dozen or more people me that *I* am the problem....maybe then I will take a look. Until then.....

July 12, 2006
3:03 pm
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Why does anyone have the right to judge anyone else?

July 12, 2006
3:08 pm
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No one does have the "right" to judge. Unfortunately, it's just human nature.

Probably not the answer you were looking for...but it's the only one I've got.

(((OMW)))

July 12, 2006
3:19 pm
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Actually lolli, it is a good and I believe a true answer. =) So, I am going to re-phrase my question:

Why does anyone 'think' that they have the right to judge anyone else? It is a choice, a matter of decision and the will, and it is a choice with consequences, not only for the one who judges, but for the recipient. Truth be told, we are all lacking in some area, we just have holes in different places!!

omw 5:17-18 (HAHAHA...just joking BIG TIME!! about the refrence))

July 12, 2006
3:21 pm
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eve
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Wasn't one of the guidelines (or still is)?

talk about yourself - talking about others just recycles problems.

July 12, 2006
3:22 pm
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Twinks, is it really that important to you that you try to change someone's thinking here, or they way they are. If you wre God you could go ZAP!! but you aren't. This is a battle of the wills, and to be honest, you both are equal in what you are doing.

You can't make anyone do anything, no one can.
hugs dear lady,

omw

July 12, 2006
3:42 pm
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I do not comprehend how he has set one poster against another. Being honest here,,, I am going to venture to say that you are talking about Juanita (hi Juanita if you are reading, i don't mean to talk about you as if you weren't here), and of course Sew who is out of the country at the moment.

Isn't everyone responsible for thier own feelings and for how they respond?

Something is missing in this whole equation...something IS MISSING. It isn't logical, that the same would be presented over and over, over an over, without ever getting to the point.

So far no point as far as I can see has been made.

July 12, 2006
3:49 pm
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Twinks, you can't "take him on",,,and why would you want too? This is cyber world. I'll bet this is upsetting you to no end...every day...I know what this feels like, I have wanted to blast some people on aac as well, but it isn't right...and a waste of time and energy to keep it going. What it really boils down too is you...and how this makes you feel and function.

If you are like me, you just walk away, as you have better things to do!!

I am appealing to you as I know you are getting hurt by the rage. I can see how this eats at you...stop!

WD...you have nothing to prove to anyone. I advise letting it go. Here I am playing mediator, like who appointed me...so I am going to beg out as well and not say another word.

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