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Why is it always a man who has to be there for a woman?
August 20, 2008
2:15 am
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marypoppins
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I'm in complete agreement with you, Fantas. However, because my previous experiences have been with emotionally unavailable and abusive men, I gave away everything and got little in return.

With no man in my life at the moment, I take care of myself and my daughter, and this works out fine. I try to support others when I can, and I find support from friends and family, male and female.

Hopefully, I'm getting strong enough to participate in an intimate relationship in which both people give and receive in a healthy way.

(((all of us)))

Mary

August 20, 2008
11:09 am
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Fantas

>> I never feel offended if my man forgets my birthday

That is awesome, really. I mean that. You're different. We know that the majority of women think like this though:

>> "But I do expect him to WANT to be the strong one. To want to be there for me, to feel a sort of manly honor in strength and protectiveness and in providing and to get satisfaction from fulfilling those duties."

That is, they expect the guy to be a "man", stronger and more supportive. Why do they think like this, whats your opinion? Very interesting question.

>> No two women like to be spoilt the same way and not two men do either...

True, but, majority of women expect the guy to be emotionally stronger and to be spoilt etc.

See the bottomline is, you dont expect your man to be "a man", am I right? This is great and progressive thinking, which is rare. The majority of woman expect their man to be "a man" (oops, sorry for the repetition). I want to know why, from a woman who has gotten over and stayed away from this sexist backward kind of thinking.

August 20, 2008
11:24 am
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Bevdee, you said somwhere else you disagree with me on men and women. What do you disagree with? What did I say, that was not correct?

August 20, 2008
11:51 am
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soofoo
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Excuse me guest, why do you quote me and then ask fantas to explain? Fantas is an intelligent, sensitive woman but she is still not me, the sensitive, intelligent woman who wrote:

"But I do expect him to WANT to be the strong one. To want to be there for me, to feel a sort of manly honor in strength and protectiveness and in providing and to get satisfaction from fulfilling those duties."

Guest, this is a matter of personal preference. I am not saying that all men must be this way. Men can be however they want to be.

I am talking about what I find attractive. I would not find a man attractive if he was babyish or if he whined a lot. I can sense the type of guy who would leave me in a crisis to save himself, and I don't like him. I don't like men who make a big deal out of their problems. This is my preference. It is not a prescription for male behavior. It is not sexist or backward of me, to have preferences. There are plenty of women who feel differently and I don't judge them just like I don't judge people for their preference in ice-cream flavor. My friend has a boyfriend (also my friend) who waxes his eyebrows, needs a lot of attention socially and personally, complains often and dramatically and gossips. I don't mind these traits in him, because he's not my boyfriend, but I would never, ever date him. My friend likes him and that's all that matters.

Those who know me, know that I took care of my BF during his illness, which completely debilitated him, and also during his subsequent unemployment, when I took care of him financially (and still do, to some extent). I could have left him at this time, and some people thought I should have, but I didn't. I take care of those I love when they are weak, and everyone gets weak sometimes. Sometimes what a person has to give is not that much. But some people will never give you anything, regardless of what they have.

Your captain obvious,
soofoo

August 20, 2008
11:53 am
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fantas
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That is, they expect the guy to be a "man", stronger and more supportive. Why do they think like this, whats your opinion? Very interesting question.

Guest, interesting question indeed and interesting discussion...

Well, my opinion is that soceity has programmed both men and women this way. From when we are little, the girls are encouraged to aspire to a day when they will get married, we are taught how to dress and look appealing to the opposite sex and we are even given a timeline of the appropriate time to be married. We are also taught to be coy and feminine so as to feel the men needed because if we are too independent, bold, progressive, we will frighten away the men. So what you see now is just our soceity norms and values at work.

The men most of us women encounter tend to be manly and those who aren't are called very interesting names. Like you, I often wonder why we expect the men we marry to all of a sudden be sensitive when they have spent their whole life being taught how to be openly unfeeling and to supress their "feminine" side. Most of us women didn't even grow up with men who behaved this way. It's a mystery to me.

As for why I'm this way, I have to say that I've always felt this way. My family of origin is very traditional and women and men have their place. As a little girl born between my brothers, I learned that I could do anything as well or better than they could so I never was convinced we were very different from each other. Something about me has never been able to buy that stuff. It's been very interesting negotiating romantic relationships with men to say the least.

My Faith of choice also believes and encourages the equality of women and men which I absolutely love. I finally found people who actually believed what I had always believed. Even in the Faith community I see people struggling with these issues but there is always the underlying understanding that men and women may be different, but they are equal. What is good for the goose is good for the gander:) which includes the good and the bad. To say that someone did anything because they are man or woman is seen as scapegoating.

I applaud you for raising this question as a man. It's time the men started asking it and challenging those men and women who are stuck in this state to rise to a higher purpose of themselves and each own their own happiness and sadness.

August 20, 2008
12:15 pm
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soofoo
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I would like to add that in addition to being attracted to a man who wants to be strong and to protect and to provide, I also like a man who can express his feelings, who is in touch with them.

My preferences have developed as a result of my life experience, and most certainly not due to societal programming. I've dated them all, married one of them , had a child with another, had my heart broken several times, and this has definitely shaped my preference!

I don't speak for anyone else. To do so would be sexist and backward. There are as many different flavors of folks in this world as there are folks.

August 20, 2008
2:08 pm
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Soofoo,

>> I would not find a man attractive if he was babyish or if he whined a lot.

Did I ever say that? You went to the non-existent extreme in order to appear right. Ok whatever.

August 20, 2008
2:17 pm
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Thanks Fanta, I loved your post. It is so very true. I definitely did not expect somoene like you on this thread who broke away from these silly gender-based cultural games and norms.

Now Soofoo will think I'm praising you cause I finally found someone who agrees with me. I dont care about Soofoo or anyone.

There's very few people in this world who can think on their own. If its not religion, its customs and norms that they're simply not able to break away from. I will come back and read your post again sometime. Its great to hear this coming from a woman.

I have gotten so much hate and vitriole on this thread, because of the question I raised here. Its fine, whoever did that to me, you dont have my respect at all. I was hammered, mud-slinged and hissed and spat upon, honestly. Back at ya, whoever it was, lol. Oh well. I'm good.

August 20, 2008
2:32 pm
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soofoo
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No guest , I, soofoo, not the representative of all women, said that about babyish and whininess. Why would I want to appear right? How can my preferences be right or wrong? They are right for me.

Who mud-slinged, hammered and hissed and spat upon you, you poor, poor thing?

August 20, 2008
4:47 pm
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Well... you speak for the majority of women, who want their man to be "a man". There's no doubt that most women are currently like this. I cant bring a survey to give you as proof but I'd try if you asked me.

August 20, 2008
4:52 pm
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Who did? You just did, Soofoo. duh? whatever.

August 20, 2008
4:53 pm
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Can I start with remember how you called me a monkey? There ya go.

August 20, 2008
4:53 pm
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remembeRING

August 20, 2008
4:58 pm
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Soofoo, you're till mad at me huh. Alright well. What can I do. I'm ok.

August 20, 2008
6:04 pm
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soofoo
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Monkey was a nickname, not an insult. I'm tempted to say it was a pet name, but then my manly boyfriend will have to kick your butt. So we'll say nickname. "Guest_guest" seems so ... something not fun and friendly. I really wanted to call you LM for "little monkey" but I understand that primate names are out of the question, so guest or guest_guest it is. When you asked me to stop calling you monkey, I did. Remember?

I don't mud-sling, hammer, hiss and spit upon. I bite the head off, chew it up and spit it out. Sometimes I pulverize in the palm of my hand. Or I bash into tiny unrecognizable pieces.

I eat men like you for breakfast every day. That's why I'm so healthy and strong.

Yes, I do think that survey would come out that like 99% of women want their man to be "a man". Most women do not want their man to be a woman or a child or a beaver. Duh. Whatever.

Not mad at you, (very tempted to say "little monkey" right now but controlling myself) guest_guest.

Now tell us, what do you want in a woman? All I know is that you like a big ass. What else?

August 20, 2008
6:25 pm
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>> Yes, I do think that survey would come out that like 99% of women want their man to be "a man". Most women do not want their man to be a woman or a child or a beaver.

You do know what I meant when I put that that in quotes, right? Or I gotta explain it?

August 20, 2008
6:50 pm
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If you want me to agree with you or disagree with you, you gotta explain it.

LM, did you read that I like my man to be in touch with his feelings?

Captain obvious

August 20, 2008
7:01 pm
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By putting "a man" in quotes, its referencing back to the same chain of thought which was:

>> But I do expect him to WANT to be the strong one. To want to be there for me, to feel a sort of manly honor in strength and protectiveness and in providing and to get satisfaction from fulfilling those duties.

I'm gonna call you FM, female monkey then if you're gonna call me LM, ho'ws that, lol. Sup FM!

>> LM, did you read that I like my man to be in touch with his feelings?

Yes I did.

August 20, 2008
8:03 pm
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marypoppins
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willingness to challenge cultural stereotypes? check

willingness to prepare healthy meals in exchange for laundry duties? check

willingness to maintain big ass? check

okay, Guest, what else? how else can a woman be there for you?

Sincere Mary

August 20, 2008
8:21 pm
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fantas
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Soofoo,

Although there is ample philosophical, sociological, anthropological, you name it, research to support that most if not all of us are direct products of our environment, I chose to use the terms IMO because long before I ever studied any of these researches I still felt this way. Like I shared, my background is very traditional and I was trained and socialized this way but it never felt true and authentic to me. I asked questions of people/women who didn't even know why they did what they did. All they knew is that's how it has always been. There is something to the nature vs nurture debate. I also do not assume that everyone would view this issue the same way I do and I'm cool with that. I love that through your experiences, you have finally narrowed down what characteristics you wish for in a man. Lord knows many of us are still shutting our eyes and throwing the dart with the hopes that it will land somewhere/anywhere:)

Guest,

I too like that you are asking this question. I wish more men came on this site and asked questions such as these so we all can actually begin to see each other differently. Having read your post, I can no longer continue to assume that men do not wish for their women to be their "knights in shining armours" all the time, not just in special occasions or during a crisis. I can't ever pretend not to know that that possibility exists there. My question to you is, how should I as woman, communicate with my man so that he feels comfortable enough to share with me, this very personal needs? How would you let your woman know that it's okay for her to fuss over you the same way men fuss over woman, without her being called bossy?

August 20, 2008
8:44 pm
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Guest
I've got no problem with FM, if you've got no problem with LM. I prefer Captain Obvious for ... well... obvious reasons, but FM is okay. Maybe one day when you're not mad at me you can call me CO. Your personal savior from the darkness of ignorance, using my pulverizing powers for good and not for evil ...

So are you saying that the definition of "man", that is, "man in quotation marks" is whatever soofoo wants?

Wow! You must have believed all that nonsense about how I bite people's heads off, chew them up and spit them out! Cool!

Then I agree. 100%. It's whatever I want. Right now it's a plate of pancakes with real maple syrup. I'll get back to you when it changes.

Man up!

August 20, 2008
8:52 pm
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fantas
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MP...we must have posted at the same time....I laughed so hard when I read your entry. Thank you for that!!! How are you doing hun?

August 20, 2008
9:10 pm
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soofoo
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Fantas,
About the nature vs. nurture debate, I think that both nature and nurture play a part in a person's development.

Of course, people have different opinions on issues. But why would anyone consider someone else's preferences in a relationship a debatable issue?

August 20, 2008
9:41 pm
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Mary, you guys are making fun of me liking a big ass huh. I just wanna make sure any potential baby I have gets enough protection and cushion while he's in the creation capsule, whats that called, womb or something. How's that sound, I like that term better. Creation Capsule. A game I'm playing calls something like a Vita Chamber where the player is born again.

Ok I liked 2 and 3 but not 1 that much, which is ok as long as she doesnt argue with me. Wonder if I'm expecting something from her which I myself dont have. I'm dreaming though, I'm single.

August 20, 2008
10:09 pm
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fantas
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Soofoo,
Ones preference shouldn't be a reason for debate IMO. I hope you didn't feel that your choice of characteristics in men was questioned by me. If you did, that wasn't my intention at all. I do, however, think every now and then, each one of us should constructively examine the reasons why we do the things we do. I think this is why I find Guest's question so awesome. I for one I'm always questioning the motivation why I do anything. Many of us on this site got here because we needed to unpack a lot of learned relationship baggage that wasn't working for us anymore. I started to actively and intentionally look at myself because I was in so much pain. In the future I wish to do this before my embedded beliefs cause me pain.

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