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Why is it always a man who has to be there for a woman?
August 13, 2008
11:32 am
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soofoo
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Guest_Guest,

I don't mind debating about it and I don't think you are a woman hater. I also really appreciate your honesty which is just as shocking to me as mine apparently is to you.

The expectations are not just cultural, they are also biological. Women get pregnant and have babies that require a lot of care from them. This makes them extremely vulnerable. It is not weakness, but vulnerability. For this reason, a man ought to feel a lot of protective instinct toward his mate.

It is surprising to me that this is not more obvious to you. Is it not apparent to you that men and women are different? If not culturally, at least biologically we have different roles, and consequently different needs from each other. It's okay.

I never knew you were a man before this thread.

August 13, 2008
12:03 pm
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soofoo
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More shocking and outrageous honesty from soofoo:

1. If another man threatens me I want my man to knock him out. This does not make me weak. I am also completely secure in knowing that my man would definitely do this if the situation ever arose. I hope it doesn't.

2. My man will offer his seat to me, any other woman, an elderly person, a handicapped person or any other person in need if there are not enough seats. I love this about him and it does not make me weak.

3. If we are out together, my man will stare down any other man who looks at me. They always look away. I unabashedly love this.

4. If I'm cold my man gives me his jacket, even if he has a tee shirt on and I'm in long sleeves. It's up to me to refuse it if I feel he needs it more. When our boat broke down, he carried each of my kids and then me through muck to the shore. When I tried to refuse this, he insisted, saying he needed to do this for me. If ever there is not enough of something, he gives me his share. Again, it is up to me to refuse it. I know he would give his life for me, just as I would give my life for my children.

Now guest_guest, I will tell you the secrets of what he gets from me and how this inequality is balanced when I see that you are paying attention.

August 13, 2008
2:28 pm
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Soofoo

>> 3. If we are out together, my man will stare down any other man who looks at me. They always look away. I unabashedly love this.

Ofcourse you're going to love that. You'll love him doing everything he can for you. I would love it if everyone stopped what they were doing to attend to my sensitive needs too, right? I mean - who wouldnt? Thats not the point.

>> Women get pregnant and have babies that require a lot of care from them. This makes them extremely vulnerable.

Men can also take care of babies. Fine they cant have them. Take away those 9 months and the breast feeding. Everything else that remains is nothing that a man cant do.

How do those 9 months and breast feeding make a woman vulnerable and entitled to receive extra attention due to that? Arent men exposed to the same vulnerabilities in life? We have our own too.

>> Is it not apparent to you that men and women are different?

Hmmmm. Yea ofcourse they're different. I never said they werent. A person could be different from another in that, he's more wise and strong in character. Saying its a matter of "difference" is one way of brushing aside the fact that he's infact superior.

Right?

I have the answer to my own question. Its only culture as PreciousG said above. Ofcourse men who dont care as much as other guys, or dont want to be the strong ones dont get any booty. Thats what it boils down to. Men just want sex more than women do, so they're willing to more to get it. They'll open doors, make romantic dinners, pretend to be sensitive and blah blah. Anything to get in their pants and, you guys bite the bait. We're smarter. We know what we want and we go for it. We want that fruit, and we know we have to climb and distract the monkeys, so we do it. The monkeys like being distracted. Maybe women will do anything to get care from men, if that means letting men get into their pants, then so be it.

There was a documentary on monkeys. The male monkeys would give favours to female monkeys in exchange for sex:

http://www.time.com/time/healt.....21,00.html

"Do Monkeys Pay for Sex?"

"researchers, who studied the monkeys for some 20 months, found that males offered their payment up-front, as a kind of pre-sex ritual. It worked. After the females were groomed by male partners, female sexual activity more than doubled, from an average of 1.5 times an hour to 3.5 times."

So there you go. Girls want to be "groomed" (pampered, taken care of) and men want the booty. Thats exactly what it is about in humans too. The only difference is we can use a computer and type out psychological babble to say "we're different, women are vulnerable, blah blah" when it all boils down to SEX.

I say it like it is. lol.

You know what. It doesnt matter. After 150 years, things arent going to be like this. Now this is worth me repeating it 10 times here, so I'll say it once:

Women generally have lower self-esteem as compared to men, but READ ON--> This is not because they're women. Its because they've been abused in history, throughout history and given less rights. _As time goes_, women will get back their rights and be as strong as men. When that happens, there will be none of this inequality as far taking care or being the stronger one is concerned.

Dont anyone dare to jump on me for saying the above paragraph now. I clarified that this is only a CURRENT problem due to lingering effects of a dysfunctional and unfair/abusive history. 2) It will fix itself with time.

Do you get it? Can you see this happening in the future?

August 13, 2008
3:10 pm
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alicenwonderland
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Well, here's my take from a girl who has never been taken care of in her life...

I am from a very rural community, as many of you already know, but it is the women who are emotionally needy who get the men who take care of them. I am a strong woman who despite her issues and problems with the opposite sex doesn't need a spider killer or a handyman, but at least in my area it is the women who screech at the sight of a bug and can't hammer in a nail to save her fool life are the women who the men flock after. They want women to be helpless. Here is it a part of the caveman mentality that women are suppose to need men to do these things. Men; however, aren't suppose to need anything. Men don't cry and they don't need anyone to chase away the nightmares. I dated a man who I loved more than life itself. One of our main problems was that I wanted to take care of him back, but he just couldn't let me. He felt everything was his responsibility and in the end he got so drained by the relationship that he ran like his hair was on fire. That didn't have to happen, but the idea of letting me chase away the monsters was more terrifying than the monsters themselves.

I can't tell you how many men have entered and exited my life when they realize that I can pay my own bills, take care of my car when it needs repairs (that's what garages are for), and cut my own grass. I don't "need" a man in my life, but I have wanted many of them there. I have said in multiple arguements "wouldn't you rather be wanted than needed?" The answer is always NO. I go weak in the knees flattered when a guy wants to take out the trash. It shows me that he cares and wants to do it. That is a much better feeling than him doing it because I NEED him to. I realize that these are all physical things, but they still have an emotional tie. Men, either by design or societies influence, are hardwired to be the one who takes care of these things.

Women, on the other hand, are the nurturers. We are hardwired (or influenced by society) to be take care of other facets of life such as cooking, cleaning, child rearing, kissing the boo boos, and providing the Kleenx when a bully hurts someone's feelings. We do it so much for everyone else that often times we get emotionally drained when don't have anyone to do it for us which is why we need our guy to fill in some of the empty space. With that said, women should also be there for her guy. I think it's ok for a man to need you to chase away his monsters at night if he is willing to chase yours away too. I think it's ok for a man to be the bug killer if the woman is the chef. I think it has to be a two way street. A relationship is about caring for and relying on the other. If you are giving more than you are getting, then it isn't a balanced exchange and someone always comes out feeling hurt, angry, and let down.

I think the real problem is that men often portray themselves like they don't want help. We don't know you need a hug unless you ask especially if everything you do shows us that you don't. It makes us think you don't want us to hug you. It's kinda like a man buying a woman a present. Is it easier if we give you an idea about what we would like to have or is it easier when we approach it with the "if you really knew me you would KNOW what I would like". Then you get the wrong thing and we are both let down by the gift and that you don't truly know us. So we have our issues too...hehehe

August 13, 2008
3:23 pm
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soofoo
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Guest_monkey,
I keep taking it for granted that I don't have to spell things out for you. Oo-oo-aa-aa. (monkey sounds)

"Take away those 9 months and the breast feeding. Everything else that remains is nothing that a man cant do."

Silly monkey, these tricks are for ladies. The nine months and the breast-feeding is huge. A woman is very physically vulnerable during this time, which (without modern birth control) would be pretty much all the time.

I was trying to explain also, that my BF's stare downs, etc., have to do with his needs. His needs to protect me from other men, the elements, etc. He has needs for sex also, but not everything he does for me is for sex.

Guest_monkey, saying women and men are different is not psychological babble. Huh????

I feel like Captain Obvious making these arguments.

You're all over the map little monkey. Now you are saying that men are smarter than women. Hmmm.

I think you just want to have a fight with me because you like me.

It's okay monkey_brain,

soo-oo-oo-foo-oo-oo.

August 13, 2008
3:30 pm
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Oo oo, aa aa, YEA.

See Soofoo, another way of putting it is:

If sex wasnt part of the equation, men would NEVER open doors for women, buy them valentine gifts, a diamond ring and everything else. They wouldnt care. Do you agree? lol

>> A woman is very physically vulnerable during this time, which (without modern birth control) would be pretty much all the time.

I already said we can exclude those 9 months. Ofcourse they're different. Yes I like you because of that long bushy slender tail and OMG, look at the way you swing over that tree or climb on that coconut tree in 10.5 seconds.

Hmmmmmm. Oh well.

August 13, 2008
3:36 pm
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Alice

Thanks for your post.

>> They want women to be helpless.

This is true. I've seen different instances where a guy discovered that a girl could do something for herself and he suddenly felt insecure. We're all following culture blindly and unthinkingly, without thinking "So what? She CAN do it for herself. It doesnt make me less of a man than I am"

The hardwiring you talk of, thats the reason, except I think its culture, meaning - it will fade away with time as more and more women become like you.

August 13, 2008
4:05 pm
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soofoo
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Monkey,
You're oversimplifying. C'mon now, I am a mere woman. You are supposed to be smarter than me. A man does not drop $5,000 on a diamond ring for sex. A man does not open the door for a pregnant woman who is not his wife for sex. Maybe every Valentine's day gift that ever was bought was for sex, but I doubt it. A man does not do everything else he does for sex. That's just silly.

My point was that we CANNOT exclude those nine months and the breast-feeding time! How can we when nature dictates that they would account for nearly the entire adult life of a woman?

I used to think that the male/female differences were cultural also. Then I had kids. I could see little manliness in my boys (way, way before they could even conceive of sex).

How old are you little monkey?

August 13, 2008
4:42 pm
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WizardofAus
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What is the purpose of heterosexuality? It apparently has survival benefits by virtue of the genetic diversity that it visits upon the offspring.

But is there any psychological benefits in the polarity between masculine and feminine energy. Presumably Marx and Hegel would approve of the dialectic by which thesis confronts antithesis and in turn creates synthesis. The above thread seems to indicate that the confronters are significantly outnumbering the synthesisers at this point in our history. I guess the high divorce rate confirms this refusal to see beauty in our polar opposite.

The other observation I would make is that we may all be being a tad too rational and selfish about LOVE, which probably reaches its full heights in the irrational frenzy of passionately trying to satisfy another.

"Life is a gift to be experienced not a problem to be solved."

And they do say that sex is the most fun that you can have without laughing.

August 13, 2008
4:50 pm
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alicenwonderland
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Here's the funny...maybe culture won't change because it's harder for us to find a mate. Natural selection means that if the needy gals get the men and reproduce that socitey breeds more needy gals (and men who get to be the tough one)...women like me who are strong stay single (well-at least in rural WV)...gotta love Darwin. I think that we must first just look at ourselves and the relationships that we have. If a man is always playing the protector and having no one to chase his monsters, maybe he needs to look at the relationship dynamic and himself in that dynamic. Same is true of a woman.

I often we (men and women) make things far more complicated than they need to be. Why can't we be both weak and strong? Isn't that what a true relationship is about? I rely on you when I am weak and you rely on me when I am weak.

Well guest, when you get it all figured out, let me know...hehehehe

Great topic-btw!

August 13, 2008
6:07 pm
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Soofoo you're getting personal and abusive. I'm going to ignore that. My age is not important here. This:

>> A man does not do everything else he does for sex. That's just silly.

How do you know that?

August 13, 2008
6:39 pm
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I have two adult sons. They send me Valentine's Day cards every year. Presumably, NOT for sex.

That sorta shoots your theory behind greeting cards having sex as an ulterior motive?

Also, both my sons always stood when I rose from the table and held my chair when I sat FROM THE AGE OF 7-8. This had nothing to do with sex. It is simply good manners.

Or are good manners politically incorrect now?

My older son is celibate, as is his girlfriend. He is completing his studies to be a law enforcement officer. His girlfriend is finishing her Masters Degree. I add these details, to demonstrate that they are NOT "idiots." My son holds the door for his gf (both restaurants and car doors), sends her cards on all major holidays and is saving up for a lovely diamond engagement ring for her. His motive is NOT sex because he isn't getting any. He loves and respects her.

If you have never seen this demonstrated in your own family dynamics while growing up, it might be hard to understand as an adult. Fortunately, my sons were raised to standards of good manners, as well as masculinity. To me, a real man is a true gentleman. I wouldn't settle for anything less.

- Ma Strong

August 13, 2008
6:41 pm
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guest -

As an olde lady, I would evaluate your postings as coming from a young man, under the age of 30. Substantially under the age of 30.

Time matures and changes our perspective.

- Ma Strong

August 13, 2008
8:50 pm
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Yea they sound like to you they're coming from a 15 year old right? I'm double that actually. Anyway it doesnt bother me. People resort to looking at someone personally like thiswhen they run out of arguments. Thats understandable, its Ok, I dont mind. I knew what was coming to me when I created this topic.

Ofcourse your sons are your sons. Sex is not involved. I never said there's no such thing as love or maternal love or the love between a mother and a son.

August 13, 2008
8:54 pm
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Wizard, I think differently.

>> I guess the high divorce rate confirms this refusal to see beauty in our polar opposite.

Do you think a person should always stay roommates with someone, no matter what? What if their roomate becomes an ass after 5 years? What if, they just want to move out? I dont thikn so. The same is true for marraige. In my opinion its ok to want to divorce. Its nothing to be criticized. If two people dont like each other anymore, fine, its perfectly ok to separate.

If you dont have to explain why today you want to go to a different resturant than the one you went for yesterday, you shouldnt have to explain why you want to go for a different woman tomorrow.

Ofcourse I'm not saying its ok to go around with somoene new every day. My point was, its our choice to divorce and to get away from something we dont want anymore and thats ok.

August 13, 2008
9:00 pm
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Alice

>> Why can't we be both weak and strong? Isn't that what a true relationship is about? I rely on you when I am weak and you rely on me when I am weak.

People like Soofoo (who are the majority currently) will never see what we're talking about. Thank you, for seeing what I was talking about. I'm glad if atleast one person saw it.

August 13, 2008
9:01 pm
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bevdee
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I like to read different perspectives. yFrom young or old I feel that if I keep an open mind, I can learn from everyone. At my age, I tend to dismiss younger people as not knowing anything, or not nearly as much as I do- at my vast age of 48. Which may not be the case at all, that my be an arrogance I wrap around my own ignorance. Out of the mouths of babes, etc. I think the important thing is to keep my mind open to different ways of thinking. The one I was raised in damaged me, but the mindset lingers. I don't want that mindset to calcify in my old age like arteries can.

August 13, 2008
9:03 pm
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Ok so, saying it again: whats going to happen is the same. Women will become stronger. I've seen this: There's no greater pleasure than being confident and happy in ourselves. Thats going to be our natural state as time goes. When women dont need that much extra care from men, men will stop giving it to them and the behavior will vanish.

I got some hostile reactions like from Soofoo, because I was doubting the validity of something which she currently has and values, which is - extra care from her man. She got angry, understandable. No one wants anything taken away from them. That was the motive behind the hostility, as well me saying that women are weak. WHICH wasnt different from her saying that men are expected to be the strong ones.

From which follows:

Women are expected to be the weak ones. ha!

I didnt say it... a woman said it herself. Thanks again for the honesty.

So what remains in this discussion, I dont know. I just had the question at the time and I got angry seeing this temporarily dysfunctional behavior in society. I get very sad to thikn I wont live to see the future as it evolves.

August 13, 2008
9:05 pm
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Thanks Bevdee, you're great as always!

August 13, 2008
9:20 pm
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Hi Guest.

I sincerely hope that you do not ever have to be the one left behind in a divorce.

You may change your mind about how ok it feels.

Love ya really, Guest. I was young once and ten times as mouthy as you. Now I am just old and resigned to my fate. (lol)

August 13, 2008
9:30 pm
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I'm like that sometimes too. I'm not as bad then. It depends on how much sleep I've had, if I'm at work etc. Weekends are pretty good.

I know how a breakup feels. I'm still reeling from a situation that happened 3 years ago. Oh well.

August 13, 2008
10:29 pm
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WizardofAus
13-Aug-08

You wrote:

"Love ya really, Guest. I was young once and ten times as mouthy as you."

I didn't think anyone could exceed Guest_guest in this department, let alone being 10 times as bad.

"Confidence through ignorance" would be a good motto of the young. Though I have met rare exceptions, I guess it will always be that way. Guest_guest is certainly not one of those exceptions.

It is amazing how as we grow older, if we are growing in wisdom then we seem to realize more and more how little we know. I hope I live long enough to realize that I know practically nothing. The corollary is that when we are Guest_guest's age, we think that we know everything.

Forgive Guest_guest - for he knoweth not what he sayeth.

August 13, 2008
10:32 pm
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I dunno guest...i've felt some pretty serious pressure from our culture.

when I got divorced I needed to maintain a job or lose my kids to their dad. I worked full time, went to grad school, and single-handedly raised three kids while all their dad did was try to get them from me.

And check out the courts's line of questioning here, what the court felt was important: it was significant if I went to a bar and had drinks, but not him, an admitted alcoholic. When the kids struggled in school, my parenting skills came under scrutiny, not the fact that I was being stalked by their father and the kids had to endure his arrest and subsequent trial. During which he took them, hid them, tried to put them in foster care, and called them to be a witness on his behalf.

The courts questioned MY parenting abilities when they struggled guest, and I had to step it up or risk losing them to their father. The person CAUSING all their grief.

I could go on and on.

But to this day,I have to provide cell phones for all my kids (court order) so dad can have contact with them. Otherwise, he can get custody of them. I pay for all that guest. He hasn't paid child support in 9 months. Think the courts care? Nah. Their overworked understaffed and underpaid.

My current husband. Maybe I just pick them bad or something. I thought I would have a partner, things would be easier, but they're just not. I have 3 kids 18 years and under and a 52 year old kid-husband.

men are weak, I'm sorry. They like never get fully weaned from the breast or something.

And I'm telling ya- if this marriage falls apart, I'm done. I'll wine 'em, dine 'em, you know what 'em, but I will never live under the same roof of a man again.

There is nothing a woman can't do around the house without a butter knife and duct tape.

i miss the days of single mom-hood. It was easier than being married.

men are a burden.

free

August 13, 2008
10:40 pm
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You know Free, I had a friend who had a baby right out of high school. She lived with but never married the daddy, and they broke up after their baby girl was a year old. She never got child support. When her little girl was 5, she met a boy that was on the university's basketball team. He was from upstate NY. She got pregnant in April before he graduated in May. He left to go home.

I asked her if she wasn't afraid to have another baby with no daddy. She said, "Bevdee, to be honest, I'd rather deal with 2 babies needing me than 3. And these men are just overgown babies, demanding more attention than the little ones."

I always admired her independence. She had trouble getting child support out of daddy #2, and gave up. She went to nursing school when the youngest was 3. I used to run into her when she was doing her clinicals. She wasn't bitter or angry - she just did it.

G_Dude. I go to women for emotional support because most of the men I have known are real bad at expressing their emotions.

August 14, 2008
1:00 am
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bevdee
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Hey soofoo

You describe your man as

"2. My man will offer his seat to me, any other woman, an elderly person, a handicapped person or any other person in need if there are not enough seats. I love this about him and it does not make me weak.

3. If we are out together, my man will stare down any other man who looks at me. They always look away. I unabashedly love this.

4. If I'm cold my man gives me his jacket, even if he has a tee shirt on and I'm in long sleeves. It's up to me to refuse it if I feel he needs it more. When our boat broke down, he carried each of my kids and then me through muck to the shore. When I tried to refuse this, he insisted, saying he needed to do this for me. If ever there is not enough of something, he gives me his share. Again, it is up to me to refuse it. I know he would give his life for me, just as I would give my life for my children."

Is this a new man or the one you were having problems with earlier in the year and last year? The one that threw milk in your face and the one you strove to maintain NoContact with?

Hugs,

Bevdee

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