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What is the difference between the Liberation Brew side versus Support Threads?
May 21, 2009
11:06 pm
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balancesekr
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I never really checked out this area. It seems like the codependency issues are on the other side, and this side is religious? Can anyone shed some light for me? :O) thanks!

May 22, 2009
3:22 am
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CraigCo
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Balancesekr,

This side is more open ended when it comes to conversation re-God, a higher power etc. Lots of folks peddling their religious dogma & right fighting over here. Not a place for the faint of heart. As you know, spirituality & religion are not one in the same but, if one chooses to converse/debate those sorts of things, then this is the place to do it.

Offering religion based support to others is generally not conducive to really helping them. It just doesn't dig deep down into the root causes of peoples problems like the 12 step programs do & therefore misses the mark when it comes to truly helping others. Of course there are those who are stuck in their beliefs & can't help but spew their judgement & condemnation over here. With them it's either their way or to hell with ya. And why? - some might ask, cuz the bible says so. Basically it's just insanity on display. lol

I've been too busy to post here for the past while but, saw some of your thread on the other side just a bit ago. Congrats on your working the program! It has a success rate that no religion could ever match so, don't let others try to tell you otherwise.

Sending positive thots your way

May 22, 2009
9:17 am
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It No Longer Matters
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And I will weigh in as a Christian. God loves you and wants you to be healthy and happy.
Anyone who says you are depressed and unhappy because of sin is full of hooey. 12 step programs were orignially based on a Higher Power and the Serenity Prayer in it's entirity reads:

God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time, accepting hardship as the pathway to peace. Taking as He did this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will, that I may be reasonable happy in life and supremely happy with Him in the next.

I am not here to convert anyone, I support the freedom of religious expression FOR ALL PEOPLE whether that involves God, Buddha, Allah, or No One In Particular.

Peace

Bitsy

May 22, 2009
9:30 am
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soofoo
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Balancesekr,

On the liberation brew side, we are allowed to talk about God. Not so on the support side. Also liberation brew is for debating, making an argument, etc. The support side is for support and not debate.

It is tricky though, and these rules are not always followed. Also, religious and spiritual folks seeking support need to post here if they want to talk about their faith since that is not allowed on the support side.

May 22, 2009
11:37 am
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glittered when he walked
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Rather than define what libs is it's easier to define what the support side is. People seeking support (or venting) for their troubles/woes/issues.

Libs is basically "anything else" - it needn't be "making an argument"...it can be just a discussion about anything...dating, money, sex, God, politics, etc.

May 22, 2009
2:55 pm
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Thanks Glittered.

Bitsy

May 22, 2009
3:05 pm
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PJ_Bunny
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Hi. I have questions. Is it ok to disagree on support? What is the difference for Liberation Brews in debating and making an argument? I see threads here that are more support than on support? What are the guidelines?

May 22, 2009
3:16 pm
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soofoo
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Glittered,

An "argument", in the philosophical sense, is an orderly, respectful presentation of ideas that attempts to prove at least one point. This is how I meant that word.

Arguments are okay. They are not the same as fights, although many, many people seem not to know the difference.

But this will lead me into why philosophy ought to be a required subject in every school, starting at age 8 and not stopping until graduation. That would seriously make the world a better place! Alas, I don't have the time or energy and it's a gorgeous day.

May 22, 2009
3:36 pm
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_anonymous
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To get more infor on this subject look at the top right hand side of the screen and type liberation Brew into the search. You will see some very good threads written on the subject.

May 22, 2009
7:54 pm
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peace4all
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(((Bitsy)))

You rock !!! I am grateful to see that you posted the entire Serenity Prayer...It is so beautiful and it says it all. I remember the first time I realized that it was longer than what I had always heard and said, I was so delighted. I am a grateful member of Alanon and I believe in (God) and his (Son)...and I also believe that the first Big Book is the Bible...Blessings and peace to you today...Be well....

Love in recovery, Peace4all/ grammie

May 22, 2009
8:21 pm
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_anonymous
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PJ Bunny the guidelines for this site are listed at the bottom of the screen and everytime you post.

May 22, 2009
9:20 pm
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free2choose
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Hi Balance and PJ!!!

There are some Threads in support that started long ago that have now become more of a social meeting site type thing, but most are posted by people with very specific problems or questions that just need others to provide support for.

Libs is much more free-wheeling. We discuss and debate EVERYTHING,mostly polotics, God, religion, social issues, what have you.

Yes, you can disagree in Support sideand some threads have gotten awfull heated, but usually if that happens the SC will move the thread over here!

Good luck and I hope you both find what you are looking for here!

May 22, 2009
10:24 pm
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God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time, accepting hardship as the pathway to peace. Taking as He did this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will, that I may be reasonable happy in life and supremely happy with Him in the next.

Just a few things I have learned.

1. We are only guaranteed the "pursuit of happiness". We are not guaranteed happiness.

2. Most of us have to go through some sort of hardship to recognize peace when we have it.

3. Reasonably happy is happy enough. If we don't experience the valleys how can we experience the peaks.

4. If I surrender to "something" and quit trying to control "it" I will be happier than if I try to control the outcome.

5. What doesn't matter; just doesn't matter.

I wish peace, love, and happiness to all and I don't really care how you find it, only that you find it.

Bitsy

May 22, 2009
10:44 pm
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Healing.. and peace
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(((Bitsy)))

Thank you, for posting!

May 24, 2009
2:38 pm
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glittered when he walked
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soofoo,

I understood what you meant by argument. I only clarified that not all of the discussions necessarily "prove a point" - sometimes they are just discussions with no real right or wrong aspects. And some folks do misunderstand 'argument' to mean fight indeed. I draw a distinction between arguments and discussions as arguments are usually adversarial necessarily, whereas discussions are merely an exploration of concerns or issues or simply just a step above idle chatter.

In courtrooms and in legal motions, lawyers make 'arguments.' Conversely, 'roundtables' are largely considered discussions.

May 25, 2009
2:30 am
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Hepburn
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Or you can just be frustrated as hell with either side. ha......

May 25, 2009
11:18 pm
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"God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

I have a personal problem with the Serenity Prayer - especially in 12 Step programs.

I have been a sober member of AA since the end of January 1973.
I have attended very few meetings in the last few years. One of my primary reasons for this poor attendance is that I find being authentic and refusing to partake in the (my) mindless recitation of the Serenity Prayer at the end of the meeting quite difficult and problematic.

For all intentions purposes I am an atheist. I fully realize that a members 'Higher Power' does not have to be either the Christian God or a God of any kind. The old joke, that 'one member's higher power was a Bondi Tram, because it could pass a pub whereas he couldn't'(boom, boom), makes this point very clear.

Assuming that an omnipotent, omniscient, infinitely compassionate God exists, wouldn't I already possess all the 'serenity' that I desired? How would my begging for it be anything but an insult to such a God? Isn't such a prayer based upon either the presumption that such a God doesn't already know that I want serenity or that He is unwilling to rearrange my neural matrix in order to facilitate such a mental state without my begging for it? Such a presumption seems to me to be contradictory to the belief about the nature of the Christian God.

Wisdom seems to me to be a state of mind that doesn't appear to be easily attained. It is a state of mind that knows how both not to trigger off negative emotions and to control and prevent the thoughts that sustain such emotional arousals. Such high levels of mind control seems to me to require the discipline of the kind possessed by some Buddhist monks after a great many hours of practice, using various powerful meditation techniques.

Begging for wisdom without doing the prerequisite 'work'- the 'hard yards' - would seem to me like wanting and expecting reward without effort, an attitude so predominant in indulged children.

If addiction of any kind is an illness, then why beg an omnipotent, omniscient God for mental and physical health when such a God obviously either causes or permits diseases of all kinds to flourish on this earth? In fact life on earth seems to me to be based upon predation at all levels of the food chain. Humans consider themselves to be at the top of this chain. I would argue that harmful viruses and bacteria are on a higher level on the food chain than we are. So if every living thing is either eating or being eaten at one time or another then what kind of a God would either cause or permit such a world to exist? Either a sadistic or masochistic God, perhaps? Who would beg such a God for serenity? Not I!

Long live 12 step programs! They are marvelous as a pathway to recovery. But, as Bill Wilson himself said' they are spiritual kindergartens. The atheist can well have a very spiritual 'higher power' that entails no deity of any kind that needs to be begged for anything. Why use the word God in the serenity prayer?

My serenity prayer:

"Through finding the will and determination to put into practice the necessary meditation techniques to gain the power of mind control through a deep knowledge and understanding of the true nature of my mind, may I find the acceptance of that which I cannot or should not change and the courage to change that which I can and should, using the worked for and acquired wisdom to know the difference."

May 26, 2009
2:28 pm
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glittered when he walked
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"Serenity NOW!"

- Frank Cosanza.

; )

May 26, 2009
2:29 pm
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glittered when he walked
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err..

Frank COSTANZA

May 26, 2009
3:53 pm
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Tez, whatever works for you....

Bitsy

May 26, 2009
7:39 pm
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marypoppins
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Frank yelling "serenity now!" over and over - red faced and shaking...

and the Bro...

I love Seinfeld.

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