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What does it mean to be open minded?
March 25, 2005
11:02 pm
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Tez i'm sorry.. can you repeat the claims to me? It was that while in the womb, they were able to recall details on a life before they were conceived?

The 20 mg weight soul point that someone else was talking about is moot as no one came forward to give proof for that.

March 26, 2005
6:36 pm
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mamacinnamon
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guest_guest:

I was curious about the weight of a soul so did a bit of research. Found an interesting article. Check out:

http://www.snopes.com/religion.....weight.asp

It's interesting. 🙂

March 26, 2005
10:26 pm
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Well, my personal definition of open minded is when a person is willing to believe anything that I tell them. I don't rquire yo to agree with me, but I will defend to the death your right to do so. And if elected Emperor of the Galaxy, I will implement laws such that every openminded perosn is guaranteed the right to agree with me.

He he. HAd you going for a sec there didn;t I.

Anyway, there seem to be two kinds of openmindedness. The first, and easiest one to understand is where a person is able to be persuaded that that which is true is actually true.

For example, people used to get into trouble for suggesting heretical and insane idea that the earth revolved around the sun. Look at poor Galileo. In retrospect, the folks that wouldn't listen to him were clearly not "open minded."

Questions of FACT are one thing. Questions of MORALITY and ETHICS and ESTHETICS are another thing entirely.

That I think is where the true "battle" for openmindedness is.

March 26, 2005
11:47 pm
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guest_guest:

Don't know if you checked out the site above or not. Just wanted to let ya know I was in the video store and saw the movie they referenced at that site called "21 Grams". Needless to say my curiosity got the best of me so I rented the movie. Complex, strange, totally unrealistical and didn't say a word about 21 grams until the very end. IF you had not seen the web site and known what it said you'd have never caught it. My hubby and I rated the movie C-. We rated the theory questionable. Just my thoughts.

March 27, 2005
9:16 am
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twinks,

No, I am suggesting that an openminded person will be open to the argument that maybe, just maybe, be open to the argument that the sun doesnt orbit the Earth. And vice versa. And that once reasonable arguments have been accepted that we wont waste eaons going over the same ones again.

But of course, you are having fun with me. That is the service you provide me and which I can probably never repay you for.

I just read a great Orson Scott Card line from "Shadow of the Hegemon," wich I paraphrase.

Perhaps it is not gravity that holds us to the earth and keeps us from spinning off into space. Perhaps it is an unknown force with identical properties.

March 27, 2005
10:25 am
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Hi there, WD. Lol @ that quotation!
We re-define our perceptions of reality continuously though, don't we? As our empirical knowledge expands, and our societies grow & change, so do our scientific explanations and philosophical concepts with them.
The flowing river never stops (though it runs almost-stagnant in some cultures at times, before rushing onwards with force.)

Just a thought ... could one map our changing view of the skies onto your quote, thus?:

Perhaps it is not only our modern astronomical model that can explain & predict the planetary movements, eclipses etc across our skies ...(Kepler)

Perhaps other models do the same job differently. (like the perfectly adequate Ptolemaic system?!)

Isn't it a relative, point-of-view thing? Ptolemy was a genius whose highly complex calculations WORKED from a geocentric point of view - (which IS how we perceive things, before being told otherwise,) so, in a way, he was right too ;D

Is there a limit to the ways we can devise models, systems & 'laws' to "save the appearances" of our (limited & finite, but changing) perceptions, I wonder?

But hey - if I open my mind much further, my brains might spill out!

Blessings of wondrous bogglement - Dryad.

Wow, this thread cheers me up from all my personal rubbish! 🙂

April 4, 2005
1:16 am
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mamacinnamon
Sorry for a late reply and thanks for the link! It refutes itself in the bottom ("What to make of all this? MacDougall's results were flawed ...").
My additional reply to this is as follows. If they're using physics, lets use physics then. Its 21 grams? It must consist of some atoms. This means it must be a gas? With today's totally advanced technology, they would have detected the gas and its composition, but it hasnt happened. The soul doesnt exist. You could deploy all kinds of instruments and detect where and what the 21grams was in that room. Remember the simple logic, if it has mass, it must have atoms and it must be a gas if it escapes like that. (If you want to know, I'm an athiest which you might have guessed already). Going deeper, where was this gas originally? Could be only in the lungs otherwise no opening of the body could hold 20/21 grams of gas. If it was the whole body which emitted this gas, science would have detected changes in the skin. Science is already down to the atomic level (nanotechnology). "Soul-defenders" still think that this "soul gas" exists even though no technology has detected it? See, science is here now, we are lucky.

April 4, 2005
1:21 am
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mama,
Sorry for not repling to your 2nd poist: "C-. We rated the theory questionable." Oh really eh, interesting. I wonder if you believe in soul yourself or ascribe to any faith.

April 4, 2005
2:18 am
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bonita1
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?

April 4, 2005
1:29 pm
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Is there any possibility that the 21 grams could be attributed to some form of energy?

Ren'ai

April 4, 2005
1:41 pm
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Hi: guest_guest:

Yes, C- or even less for sure. I love movies but this one is poorly done, and the 21 gram theory was only mentioned in the last three sentences of the movie.. My mom records movies for me since I cannot get out much. She records the Turner channel w/ all the old time movies. Van Johnson, Gregory Peck, Greer Garson, Margaret O'Brien. They are my absolute favorites. Anyway.....

Yes, I do believe every person, not animal, has a soul. Like your character defines who you are based on the rearing and circumstances you have lived thru; I believe your soul is the spiritual and emotional part of who you are.

I am a Christian woman. No particular denomination tho. I am a Bible believer; meaning I try to live according to the teaching of Jesus Christ who gave his life for me that I may be saved. I believe in love your neighbor as yourself which also includes respect for other's beliefs and religious background. As much as I love to share my faith with others, I also respect their privacy and do not share if I am asked not to. I do not believe in arguing or berating other's religions. After all, who's to say who is right and who is wrong. I don't believe anyone will know that answer for sure till our Savior returns.

All said, I'd like to continue to visit, but do not get into the twisting and berating of what someone believes. I believe in mutual respect and the art of openly discussing without bantering or berating. So, nice to officially meet you guest_guest.

PS. HI Renai, good to see you. 🙂

April 4, 2005
7:04 pm
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MamaC, you are genuine and wonderful, and I appreciate and love you.

April 5, 2005
6:41 pm
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Renai,
>> 21 grams could be attributed to some form of energy? < < Hm, yes energy and matter are interconvertible. Thats a good point, but then again, scientific instruments would be able to detect the kind of energy emitted from the body at the time of death, such as X-rays or Gamma rays etc. Also, there would have to be an explanation of where this energy conversion took place. If the body lost its mass, where from? Skin? hair? Inside of the body? A lot of questions to be answered. mamacinnamon, thanks for your kind words. I've never asked a Christian this before so I wonder whats the answer: You wrote: >> I do not believe in arguing or berating other's religions. < < Thats good. Christianity says that people must convert to it in order to be saved (from hellfire or suffering etc). If I said to you that athiest is the only way to being saved (from hellfire) and that being a Christian will lead you to hellfire, does that mean I'm berating Christianity? If not, is it ok for me to say that, and if not, why not? I wont debate long on this and just want to know the response. I hope you dont mind answering. Anyone else is also welcome to answer, I'd like to know. Thanks

April 5, 2005
10:26 pm
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Hi guest:

I don't mind discussing religion; it's the bantering, bullying; does nothing but cause dissention.

My last job was in a family law firm. My attorney hired me coz my ex caused me to lose my job, and I think he was afraid he wasn't gonna get paid. lol. Anyway, in the office we had a Jew, a Methodist, a Pentecostal, a Bible believer, and an athiest. We had many many discussions on our religions and what we believed. It was always pleasant coz he were respectful of each other's feelings and of each other's beliefs. When we did get loud and out of hand is was ... it was just funny that's all, but always respectful. I wish everyone could discuss in that manner. But then to think about it, some folks may come across harsh, but maybe that's just their passion flowing out.

Christianity believes that Jesus is the son of God who came to earth and ultimately died on the cross and rose again on the third day. That act of self sacrifice was to atone for our sins so we can go to Heaven one day. (as you already know) Yes, they believe you must accept that Jesus is God's son, believe he died for your sins, and confess that you are a sinner.

If you state your point of view then no, I do not see that as berating Christianity. It is your opinion and what you believe. I respect that.

Now, IF I told you my beliefs and you relayed your beliefs and I decided to ram it down your throat and tell you how stupid or wrong you are to believe that and you are gonna go to hell if you don't believe my way coz it's the only right way then that is berating.

How receptive are folks to the Bible thumpers that come door to door on Saturday and tell you at your front door that you are gonna burn in hell if you don't convert to their beliefs? How much do you want to listen when they tell you what a bad person you are and that you must believe now or burn in hell? Ya know what's funny? They believe that only 144,000 folks will go to Heaven. Now, tell me, why do they go out converting when there is a set number of folks to get into heaven? What if they get bumped out of the line? Makes no sense to me.
(Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, just using this an an example.)

I love to share my God with folks, but if they tell me they do not wish to hear it then that's their decision. When I first came here it was mentioned that some did not feel comfortable with my quoting scripture downstairs. So, that is why you saw the prayer threads up here. Or, a few have said "Please don't talk religion to me". So, I respect their wishes and I do not.

Now, you say, "But you believe they will go to hell if they do not convert". Yes, I do believe that, but that is their decision. I brought up the word of God and they rejected it. Don't take me wrong here, I do believe what I believe. But, who is to say which religion is the right and which is the wrong? Nobody has any clue so I would say we will have to wait on God to give us that answer. What's the old song about living in "love and harmony"? I was born 10 years to late; I would have made a good flower child, minus the drugs. lol.

So, Guest, there is my belief and why I am who I am. I lived in a horribly evil marriage for 12 years and he was horrible as he could be for the 14 years after the divorce. I choose peace. With my illness, I am to not have any stress anyway. lol. I just look at the docs and say "how bout that". lol

Later,

April 6, 2005
11:50 pm
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mama, I'm glad you guys had nice conversations in the office. Quite a mix of people there, eh.

>> tell you at your front door that you are gonna burn in hell if you don't convert to their beliefs? < < but think of it: Thats really the bottom line, isnt it? So we can be saved from hellfire. >> Now, tell me, why do they go out converting when there is a set number of folks to get into heaven? What if they get bumped out of the line? Makes no sense to me. < < Its to get that sense of urgency into them. "Buy this lottery ticket, there's going to be 10 lucky winners!" That kind of thing. I'm going to stop if anyone comes here and says they dont want me talking about Christianity. Its a nice board here, dont wanna spoil the peace. >> Yes, I do believe that, but that is their decision. < < Oh wow, so you do! Then.. why do you think, if you said to me, I'm going to hellfire if I dont convert (and like I said, this is really the bottomline!), it means you're ramming things down my throat? First realize, this hellfire concept is the bottom line of Christianity. Everyone is converting to Christianity and living a "Christian" life as much as possible for what? To be saved from Hellfire. Next thing after you realize that IS the bottom line: Dont be shy to tell people the bottomline of your religion. Dont think its ramming something down people's throats. Donald Trump says the bottom line "You're fired". I like to simplify things in life, I like to ask "Whats the deal? Whats the bottomline?" Have to stick to that, dont have time for the frilly stuff. >> But, who is to say which religion is the right and which is the wrong? < < You just said if I dont convert to Christianity I'm going to hellfire. You can say that according to YOU, Christianity is the right religion - nothing wrong in saying that. Say what makes sense for you. According to me, athiesm is one of the right things to be. I'm not afraid of saying that. Thanks for sharing. gosh, I started out saying I wont debate. Ok.. soon I'll stop.

April 7, 2005
1:11 am
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🙂 You are to cute Guest 🙂

As for spoiling the peace. No, I do try to go by the rules tho, and I was asked to speak religion upstairs rather than downstairs. So I choose to be courteous

I don't think telling someone they are going to hellfire is ramming Christianity down their throat. What I do consider ramming is when someone has clearly relayed their desire to NOT be shared to and you don't have the respect to stop. They say it takes an average of a person hearing a new concept (no matter what the concept is) a minimum of seven times before it takes hold. So, wouldn't you agree it is easier to catch a fly w/ honey than w/ vinegar? Think about it.

So, are we to agree that no matter which religion a person subscribes to.. it all comes down to a matter of personal choice and beliefs. So, do they all run around trying to convert others to keep them from hellfire? If they have a caring heart, yes. But, wouldn't you agree it is easier to catch a fly w/ honey than w/ vinegar? Think about it.

As to which religion or belief is the correct one? Not to be sacrilegious... but kinda seems like what type car you choose to drive. Oh, my, I did not just say that. 🙂

April 7, 2005
1:29 pm
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Hi mama,

>> They say it takes an average of a person hearing a new concept (no matter what the concept is) a minimum of seven times before it takes hold. < < Hm, I dont think so. For me, you can tell me the new concept ok, two times and I'm ready. It looks like an old wives tale? In some other religions, the seven and three and special numbers too (say it three times, say it seven), etc., but anyway, it doesnt matter. All information should be given to a person before he's expected to "sign the contract". Honesty. Next time in the future you invite a person to Christianity, promise me you will give them all important information about this religion. Like I said, the Hellfire is the bottomline concept and its important information. If you hide it from them in the begining and wait till they convert, I would say thats not honesty. Still wanna to hide the poison and show them the honey? Show them everything there is, dont hide anything, and THEN let them choose and then I would say you're doing the right thing. >> What I do consider ramming is when someone has clearly relayed their desire to NOT be shared to and you don't have the respect to stop. < < Yes, definitely, we cant force anything on anyone anyway. The person could say "talk to the hand". Oh the fly example. Yes, but it would be more honest if you told the fly that if it doesnt drink the honey, it'll be put on fire (the hellfire). Personal choice, yes thats all it is.

April 7, 2005
1:46 pm
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oops, sorry, ignore the last 2 lines except the last sentence. I was revising and polishing and forgot to umm, go through all of it.

April 9, 2005
4:08 am
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"'Thusness' means the complete nowness and 'thisness' of the here and now. It is awareness without filters, without distance, without mediating concepts. It is awareness in the raw, perfect and complete, without desire for gain, without attachment to anything. Thusness is a philosophical word, but it denotes the intuitive and inviolable immediacy of poetry or love. The Tathagata. the "thus-come one" is just that, all the time and everywhere." - Ch'an Master Hsing Yun.

When we bring fear relief as a hidden motive for 'seeking to be saved' from some conditioned fear of eternal damnation or for seeking to belong to some religious gathering of the 'chosen ones', we are not "without desire for gain". We are far from seeing 'what is' or 'thusness'.

The fly seeks honey for self-centred, self-seeking ends albeit inherently driven. Why use 'honey' of any kind to attract more victims to the 'honey pot' of delusion?

April 12, 2005
10:59 am
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Hi Guest:

Sorry, been busy w/ sick little one. But wanted to stop by and say hi :).

Ok you can get it in two times, I already knew you were overly intelligent.... some of us take 7 or 10 or 20 times... it's an individual thing. lol.

I got your point about the WHOLE concept. I really do tell folks of the hell part also, but you are right, I should throw it all out at once, and not in pieces (reserving certain circumstances). But, before it's all done, I do give the whole picture. To me, yes the heaven or hellfire is the final end, but the love of is just so amazing.

You said above: "You just said if I dont convert to Christianity I'm going to hellfire. You can say that according to YOU, Christianity is the right religion - nothing wrong in saying that. Say what makes sense for you." Yes, I agree. I can say what makes sense to me, AND I can still have respect for the other person's opinion of their religion without condemnation or judgement. Just a quick note.... judgement and opinion are not the same here.

Thanks for your guidance. I do see your point and I acknowledge the validity.

Later,

Hi Tez: Nice to see you are still around. :).

April 12, 2005
6:50 pm
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mama, you might even get it the first time 🙂 (I said 2 for myself as a safe barrier). It depends on what the new concept is, e.g. listen to this prank call, where it takes some time before the person gets what the other person is telling them ("I want you to start ... ":
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/i.....rphil1.mp3
(copy paste into your browser, its really funny)

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