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WD's Smut and Porn Emporium
October 16, 2007
10:12 pm
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free2choose
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Here we go again, right Kroik...

NOT.

That's all I gotta say to WD and about this topic.

I refuse to do it again.

October 16, 2007
10:48 pm
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Hi free2choose,

I would have hoped that you knew me better than that by now.

There is a principle of mental health and good relationships that I want to remind us of: It is worthwhile to take a position of assuming that people have positive, or good intentions--because most people are decent people, and most people do have good intentions, most of the time.

I think it is worthwhile to talk about controversial topics--even if they are controversial.

And the porn topic has come up a few times recently--here and as I just described, in my own life. I am not the person who broached the subject most recently--but I am following up on it.

There are so many takes and viewpoints on the topic of porn--and it is a topic that is relevant for lots of people--like the young woman I just talked about--and then she raised brought the topic to my attention.

Which brings me to another principle that I think is worth re-visiting: "Respecting Differences." And before we can get to respecting differences, we need to acknowledge that *there are* differences. If we are reactive and judgmental, then we risk shutting down people who see things differently than us. I am thinking of a couple of female AAC posters who were very clear that they not only liked viewing pornography (the phrases: "a lot" and "kinky all the way" were employed by them) but also considered it to be a valuable part of their lives. We don't hear much from them anymore. I expect the amount of anger and judgment that was voiced here diminished their sense of safety in posting here.

Differences. Gender differences. Cultural and socioeconomic differences. Generational differences. When approaching any topic of substance, it is worth remembering that there a a lot of differences to consider--and hopefully respect.

I think it is fascinating that I stumbled upon two young women having a conversation about porn and talking about it in a way and with a tone that is very different than the way people of my generation would talk about it.

What I have noticed is that conversations about porn intersect with and highlight several Perennial and Universal issues:

1) Human Sexuality in general. A huge topic, near and dear to to many people's hearts.

2) Love and Relationships.

3)Morality and the desire to be a good person.

I see the "porn topic" serves as a surface topic that helps illuminate those really meaty and worthwhile topics.

Therefore I take the risk of offending some people by creating a thread (over here in Libs, where it is, by consensus, appropriate and safe to discuss controversial topics) that tries to approach the topic in lighthearted and thought-provoking way.

There is certainly nothing compelling anyone to read or participate in this thread.

October 16, 2007
10:58 pm
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we don't hear anything either, from "bowlinggreen", the young woman who started the porn thread last June looking for support and got slammed by you, WD. That thread didn't start in libs, but it ended up here.

Respecting differences is a value, and so is giving support when it is asked for.

October 16, 2007
11:03 pm
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free2choose
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I liked her. She sure did haul her ass and never come back.

Kroik, don't bite. It's pointless, and it's what he wants. Don't give him the time or the emotional energy. It's not worth it.

Free2Choose

October 16, 2007
11:08 pm
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I am open to correction, but I don't experience myself as having "slammed" BowlingGreen.

I am open to correction, but I do recall myself being pretty proactive and warm in trying to draw her out and offering her support with regards to her own rather horrifying personal history.

I don't have much tolerance for intolerance or hate speech, though.

I have my own triggers and hot buttons--I find it hard to remain calm when faced with judgment, extreme anger, and hatred of men.

October 16, 2007
11:17 pm
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Then why are you tring to trigger that reaction in women that you KNOW have been emotionally damaged by men and by porn by introducing a thread with the title: "WD's Smut and Porn Emporium"??

That is an OBVIOus "trigger and hot button" to MANY on this site.

It seems obvious that you wish to draw out those reactions from people. If you don't want your buttons pushed, don't bait people into reacting when you push there's, it's that simple.

October 17, 2007
12:09 am
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Hi Free2Choose,

I do not believe that we ought to make a discipline of "not pushing" each other's buttons.

I do believe that becoming a mature and mentally healthy person is mainly about working with our own "buttons." Because in a world where there are lots of people with lots of differences, our buttons ARE going to be pressed. Again and again and again.

I know it is true for myself, and think it is part of the human condition: Becoming aware of our triggers, and learning not to let our emotional life takes us over when those triggers are activated, when our buttons get pressed, is a growth process. Growth is hardly ever easy--it takes intention and will and it is really helpful to have support in that process.

October 17, 2007
1:44 am
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WD

Well, I am in the minority, I think. (imagine that!!). I see both sides of this, but porn doesn't bug me. Some of it's real gross to me, and some of it might be called tasteful- or titillating. I might use porn as a tutorial, if I thought I needed instruction, and when that obligatory girl on girl scene came up, I would use that time to visit the restroom, empty ashtrays, or pop popcorn.

So here I go again, more than a year later, feeling kind of like Larry Flynt's lawyer. Worried Dad, I believe you have the right to express your opinion on this site. You and I have been in this same position - with this question of probing sensitivities. Mine was a few months ago, with religion. I had to back off after reading one of your posts on the Bashing thread and think about my opinion disabusing folks of their notions of being good people because of their faith and good works, and the right to exercise my freedom of speech on this site.

Is it disabusing someone of a preconceived notion to discuss porn, religion, man-haters, woman haters, or being stuck in a victim role?

Some religious faiths teach that any sex outside marriage, and porn is a sin, because it is taking the desire and intent away from the lawful marriage. Is it disabusing of religious beliefs to challenge that porn is not sinful on this site? What if there's a minister or a nun reading?

Is it my problem? Is it yours? Is it anyone's but that person's? Is it the responsibility of the person posting the subject to take all those factors into consideration before expressing her/his opinion? If so, is that healthy to think of everyone else before oneself?

If I continue (at this site) on my journey of self-exploration, and if that journey involves discussing porn, religion, being stuck in victim mentality, misogyny, man hating, whatever topics are really emotionally charged, and I continue to discuss it after someone tells me it hurts them, does that then become verbal abuse that I perpetuate on the person who says - "ouch that hurts"? - if I continue? What if hating porn, hating a man, embracing a religion, or misogyny is the only thing that person has to hold on to while struggling to come to grips with her/his world after being a victim of abuse?

But does it become emotional abuse to have this tactic (of ouch) played back to the porn (or whatever) advocate? Is it "abuse"to hinder freedom of speech and thought by these methods?

Is it abuse only if we let it be? On an anonymous site?

I have too many questions- I don't think there are any definite answers. I think I'm gonna go do some cat bowling.

Later porn man.

October 17, 2007
2:02 am
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Duplicate post that probably goes better here than in the other thread....

Like I said, the "porn issue" is an entry to some more interesting topics.

MsGuided andKroika have brought up an ancient theme related to human sexuality, that I think is really interesting and valuable:

"Where do we draw the line between deviance, abuse and healthy sexuality?"

I would like to offer a first cut at clearing up that question.

I'll draw a very clear line separating abuse from the mix.

I think that now, in the 21st century, we have the benefit of being able to draw on the teachings of the previous 3000 years of spiritual teachers like Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus, but we also have modern philosophy and medicine to inform us.

Abuse stands out regardless of the context. Abuse is a relational phenomenon characterized by unilateral imposition of one person's will and power over and against the desires and well-being of others. Strictly speaking, "Abuse" is *always* non-consensual, and it is *always* harmful.

Abuse is a special circumstance that can manifest in any kind of human interaction, including sexual interactions.

So I think it is pretty easy to separate the "special" circumstance of abuse from the general issue of what constitutes "normal, healthy" versus "deviant, unhealthy" sexuality.

Abuse is a worthwhile topic. And I want to distinguish that topic from another topic which has to do with beliefs, attitudes, and desires of the large majority of people who want to and choose to have their relationships and their lives be about CONSENSUAL activities.

I call present two wonderful teachers.

The first teacher I call present is the very wise, kindly and beautiful Dr. Ruth Westheimer.

I fondly recall the advertisements for Dr. Ruth's game called "Great Sex!" I paraphrase to the best of my memory. In that TV spot, some couples are playing the board game, and a woman reminds her husband "This game is about 'mutual' pleasure!"

Mutuality is the diagnostic that lets us rule out Abuse.

Next, I call present another teacher. I used to listen to a folksy acapella singing group called "Women, Women, and Song." They were a trio of lesbian, middle-aged women, and they were really, really good singers. ANd they are very wise and good women.

They published a happy little song called "The Way of Sex" that for me, really functions as an "instruction manual" for how to be at peace with the fact that there are about as many different "Healthy" expressions of human sexuality as there are human beings. Some people are celibate, and they love being that way, and it is a good path for them. Some people choose to have only one lover for their entire lives, and that is a good path for them. Some people choose to have many partners, and that is a good path for them. Some people fall in love with and are attracted to people of the opposite or same gender--and that is a good path for them.

I like to think of myself as a pretty modern, open-minded, and liberal person. But when it comes to sex, I have been faced many, many times with discovering that when it comes to *other people's* sexuality, I am not as open-minded or accepting as I think I am and wish I was.

For example, it creeps me out a little bit that the young woman making me coffee and serving me a croissant at 7 am was watching internet porn from 5 am to 6 am.

It is unnerving to me to discover that my brilliant, talented supermodel younger sister is NOT being beaten by her boyfriend--she just likes as she puts it "rough sex." That's just way more information than I was ready to hear from my little sister, if you know what I mean.

I was almost married, two-ish years ago. It was slightly alarming to me that my beautiful, talented fiancee really, really wanted and seemed to need me to sometimes...tie her hands during sex and spank her, and I felt bad because I couldn't bring myself to spank her as hard as she wanted to be spanked.

Mind you, I'll do almost anything that my Queen wants to make her happy--in bed and out of bed.

But...I'm sorry, I was raised by powerful women, and all my education says romance, sweetness, and gentleness are the way to go--and that worked for every woman before--so WTF is the spanking thing all about?!!

OK, so we're not together anymore. If I find out it was because I wasn't good enough at the spanking thing, I will be really annoyed.

So now, more than a year later, I Want to date again. Really, I want to be married. My wild oats are so thoroughly sown, sex is like, number six or seven on my list anymore.

My excellent home cooking is going to waste! What's the use of cooking great meals if you don't have someone around to eat them and say "wow those are the best meatballs I ever ate." I am a talented massage therapist with no shoulders to rub! Not to mention that I am a good singer-songwriter without a beloved to write love songs for!

So I am again looking at personal ads.

And I am flabbergasted by the variety of expressed sexual preferences of the women out there.

When I was a young man, it seemed like women basically wanted a guy who was tall dark, handsome, rich and romantic. OK, I made up for tall, handsome and rich with charm, wit, warmth and loyalty.

And women today still seem want those things, but boy are they ever more expressive with sexual stuff that..I guess is ok, but...just doesn't "do it" for me. Well, actually, some of the stuff they fantasize about strikes me as not just fetishy, kinky and pornographic, but positively ridiculous, gross, or absolutely weird. Otherwise, they seem like normal, healthy women. Probably because they are normal, healthy women. Who enjoy fantasies that I do not happen to share. God bless them.

So I am doing my best at keeping my cool. It takes every kind of people to make the world. I have the power to be accepting, I don't have to get hyper-emotional when my buttons are pressed. Eventually, I'll find a compatible partner. Maybe.

Different strokes for different folks.

Like the song says: "that is the way of sex."

October 17, 2007
2:22 am
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Hi bevdee,

Well, I hope I did not function as a rude person who "Shut you down" during the conversations about religion.

I want tell you a "secret" about myself--you may have already noticed it. I am really, really bad with names. It takes a lot of reinforcement for me to remember exactly who said what to me--and online, anonymous conversations are especially hard. I remember lines of reasoning and I remember powerful phrases--but it can be hard for me to remember exactly who said what.

With you, I "remember" that we sometimes agreed or disagreed about some subject or another at this time or that...and that we ended up feeling pretty much ok, at peace, and respecting each other.

If I am mistaken and you and I actually hate each other's guts and are still at war--please forgive me.

馃檪

Meanwhile, I am intrigued by the issue you raise about...being free to disagree, challenge, present controversial viewpoints on controversial topics, be oneself, have integrity,...and still be a respectful person, a "good citizen" of the internet.

I think that is a very worthwhile topic to explore, and perennially to-the-point for any online community. Or any community, any relationship, now that I think about it.

October 17, 2007
2:28 am
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Hi Bevdee,

As I prepare for being able to properly respond to your insightful and thought-provoking post, I needed to clarify for myself to meaning of the word "disabuse." Since it has the word "abuse" in it, I figured it best to take the word apart, see what makes it tick, and check with you if that is the meaning you really intended...

I found this definition from an online dictionary, and it sounds correct to me. Please clarify if that is the meaning you intended for the word...

SYLLABICATION: dis路a路buse

PRONUNCIATION: ds-byz

TRANSITIVE VERB:Inflected forms: dis路a路bused, dis路a路bus路ing, dis路a路bus路es

To free from a falsehood or misconception: "I must disabuse you of your feelings of grandeur."

ETYMOLOGY: French d茅sabuser : d

October 17, 2007
2:46 am
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WDad

Oh no! I don't think we hate guts! I would say - respect. And no honey, you didn't shut me down. Not possible. However, I do think deeply about things I read on this site, and take inventory of myself, because it has helped me understand myself a little better and communicate better outside the site.

Well, those questions I posed are the questions that presented themself to me during the summer.

You say "I think that is a very worthwhile topic to explore, and perennially to-the-point for any online community. Or any community, any relationship, now that I think about it." Yes, I agree. Actually, in person, I am not nearly as brave as I am here. I am slowly learning to express my opinions, radical as they are, without fearing disapproval. It's really hard for me to do this with most people.

October 17, 2007
2:48 am
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WDad

Yeah, this is what I meant.

*To free from a falsehood or misconception: "I must disabuse you of your feelings of grandeur."*

Now is that the quote or are you really going to try to disabuse me of my delusions??

October 17, 2007
4:08 am
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Hi Bevdee,

The hate-guts thing was a joke...sort of. Sometimes I forget to fight with people who want to fight with me. I can only remember 1 or 2 fights at a time.

I apologize if I ought to remember, but today, I really have no idea what "delusions" you might be laboring under, so I am not prepared to disabuse you of any.

I'll try to address a couple of your "disabuse" questions before retiring for the night.

You wrote:

"Is it disabusing someone of a preconceived notion to discuss porn, religion, man-haters, woman haters, or being stuck in a victim role?"

And you wrote:

"Is it disabusing of religious beliefs to challenge that porn is not sinful on this site? What if there's a minister or a nun reading?"

My understanding is that to "disabuse" someone presupposes that we really clearly see that they have a misunderstanding or have their facts wrong, and that we are really clear about how to correct them.

Just expressing a contradictory opinion is not disabusement, and is also not abuse.

Oooochhhh. NOw I fall down and go to sleep.

Thanks, Bevdee, for engaging me and the topics I raised in a neutral way, and thanks for honoring the depth and complexities of the material.

October 17, 2007
10:41 am
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Hi Bevdee,

You said "The hate-guts thing was a joke...sort of. Sometimes I forget to fight with people who want to fight with me. I can only remember 1 or 2 fights at a time.

I apologize if I ought to remember, but today, I really have no idea what "delusions" you might be laboring under, so I am not prepared to disabuse you of any."

No need to apologise- I was joking, too.

October 17, 2007
2:14 pm
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WDad -

You say "My understanding is that to "disabuse" someone presupposes that we really clearly see that they have a misunderstanding or have their facts wrong, and that we are really clear about how to correct them."

I really don't know about correcting anyone. It's not my job. At one time, I felt I answered a lot of dissonant questions, and I wanted logical discussions, but in the absence of that, I recognised my own unmet needs. So, maybe disabuse is too strong a word.

Well, since it was a short thread, I went back and pulled up your quote. I'm only pasting it here for accuracy- because my memory gets scrambled too, sometimes!!

On July 03 in Bashing you said -" I'll myth-bust any piece of foolishness( religious or secular) that I recognize and have sufficient expertise to speak sensibly about.

But I have a fuller understanding of Humanity now than I did when I was young.
I don't ever want to take anything away from a person that inspires them or helps them to be a better Human Being.

The fact that they have a principle, whether based in religion, or in secular humanism, that motivates them to be a better person is the most important thing for me.
Which brings me to the issue of Verbal Abuse.

Let's say I was counseling Mother Theresa, all blessings and peace be upon her...
I might argue with her about the Creation story from Genesis, or the Great Flood, or the Holy Trinity, or the Virgin Birth.

But I wouldn't dream of taking away her inspiration for her vocation, which in the final analysis, is the teachings of Jesus. What if I talked her out of it?"

This is what caused me to back away and evaluate myself. Ok- granted I know I'm not a counselor, teacher, or expert. I don't presume to think that what I am doing here is in any way, shape or form counseling. Until they find the bones and do the DNA, or come up with some proof other-than-faith-based reason to believe that Jesus lived, I will be skeptical. In my opinion, believing mythological stories and characters plagiarised from and put in the bible , including those of Jesus, - is not logical. With sensitivity, I have wondered if my discussion of this might cause someone to question that notion and possibly feel fear at her/his belief world rocking. But I don't see any evidence. In discussions I say "show me" over and over and it isn't done. What if my discussion of my lack of belief in article of faith would cause a person to question themselves and their beliefs? Am I responsible for taking that away from them?

Let's extend that to your baby - porn - (which, from most pulpits is preached against as sinful). I almost think I remember your saying in the Porn Wars of 2006 that you would like to see proof that porn was harmful, and what you got here on the site wasn't sufficient. My impression from all of that was that you still weren't convinced? (I am not going to go and look for all that - I have some studying and chores around my house to do today- : (

If a person thinks that porn is sinful, based on their religious teachings, and they begin to question that notion by reading this thread? Might it make them question all their religious teachings? And subsequent belief system?

Now I will talk about another topic and my perception. What if a person in an abusive situation who needs to understand that they are a victim and the abuse is not their fault stumbles on a thread that talks of shedding a victim mentality? Like the one I posted about the inner rescue triangle. I hesitated over that one for several reasons. One of which is that an abused person does indeed need to understand that the abuser and the abuse is not their fault. Or a person who has used that victim status to survive self-loathing in the aftermath of dv and the cycle of abuse? Having been there at one time, I know how necessary yet fragile that place can be. And that there are those who might become fearful, angry and defensive (as I was at one time) and lash out, and I ain't a gonna go there again. Still, I decided to post it and see what happened, and if a flame war started, I could just walk away. But recognising that I have been stuck before, and still slip into old grooves, invite discussion about it if anyone is willing. I got some great feedback and input.

With all this in mind, I ask myself - what is my responsibility toward protecting another person's belief system? What if they are too fragile without the belief? If that person states why they feel the way they do, then is that verbal abuse on anyone's part to continue the discussion? If the women who have suffered emotional damage in their previous relationships from the effect porn had on their mates, are finally at a point in their recovery that they can be assertive and just come right out and state their reasons and they do, is it then verbally abusive to continue?

And then I think whatif whatif whatif and yadayadayada, how can I, or anyone know? The lines of communication, sensitivity and freedom of expression are like a tightwire sometimes. Or a conundrum and there is no definite answer. IMO.

WDad thank you for responding to these ramblings in such a respectful way.

October 18, 2007
2:14 am
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Hi Bevdee,

You asked: 鈥淚f a person thinks that porn is sinful, based on their religious teachings, and they begin to question that notion by reading this thread? Might it make them question all their religious teachings? And subsequent belief system? 鈥

Seems unlikely to me. I don鈥檛 recall reading anything about porn in the Bible, anyway. I was speaking about not needing or wanting to talk people out of believing in God鈥擨 don鈥檛 feel responsible to protect people鈥檚 belief in every piece of dogma or politically correct 鈥渞eligious鈥 鈥渧alues.鈥

If someone comes to a place in their lives where they decide that all homosexuals are not going to Hell after all, and that upsets them鈥ell, what can I do about it.

Q: 鈥渨hat is my responsibility toward protecting another person's belief system?鈥

A: Usually Zero.

Q: 鈥淲hat if they are too fragile without the belief?鈥

A: You can鈥檛 protect people from insight, knowledge or discovery. And ya can鈥檛 save everyone. In fact, you can hardly save anyone.

Q: 鈥淚f that person states why they feel the way they do, then is that verbal abuse on anyone's part to continue the discussion? If the women who have suffered emotional damage in their previous relationships from the effect porn had on their mates, are finally at a point in their recovery that they can be assertive and just come right out and state their reasons and they do, is it then verbally abusive to continue?鈥

A: Could you please clarify what you mean?

My first take, though, is: No, verbal abuse is pretty well described and well understood鈥攁nd it is not the same as having a conversation that someone who might be offended by might choose to nevertheless participate in.

October 18, 2007
2:27 am
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There was a question earlier about differentiating abuse, deviance and "healthy sexuality."

Hopefully we have sorted out the abuse question and can dispense with it and move on to deviance.

There is a psychiatric term called "paraphilia" that attempts to sort sexual desires and behaviors into "healthy" and "unhealthy."

But it's a tricky question: Homosexuality used to be considered a diagnosable form of mental illness.

Form a medical perspective, that's not true anymore.

I think the real paraphilias are sexual orientations that lead to abusive behaviors or that severely interfere with normal social interactions.

Pedophilia comes to mind--or sexual addiction. Depending on your social situation, low or absent sex drive could also be considered "unhealthy" or unhelpful.

In the end, my opinion is that in this modern age, unless you are harming yourself or others, or abusing someone, pretty much anything that floats your boat, makes you happy, can be considered part of the spectrum of "healthy" sexuality.

October 18, 2007
2:30 am
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Which brings me to the second thing that inspired this thread.

Remember I have named human sexuality as a perennial and universal issue. And we have kicked around the question of deviance.

Our local weekly paper, "The Stranger," just completed their 2007 Sex Survey. Here are some selected results:

October 18, 2007
2:32 am
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There were a total of 3,565 respondents.

Male鈥54.56%

Female鈥42,65

MTF鈥0.26%

FTM-0.35%

Genderqueer鈥0.73%

Received Oral Sex--95.65 %

Given Oral Sex鈥95.09%

The editorial comment to that stat was: 鈥淲hich means that 0.56 percent of you are HUGE assholes."

Anal sex as penetrator鈥

All respondents--65.96%

Anal sex as receiver鈥

All respondents鈥59.2

Heterosexual men 鈥43.32

Have done light bondage鈥59%

Peed on someone鈥14.08 %

Been peed on鈥16.14%

Have engaged in cybersex--~ 50%

Have posted dirty photos of self online鈥20%

Have posted dirty video of self online鈥4.29%

Sometimes watch porn鈥52.2%

Regularly watch porn鈥29.92%

Constantly watch porn鈥4.03%

Never watch porn鈥12.05%

Heterosexual and have never, ever, not even once logged onto a pornographic website, even for curiosity鈥7.0 %

October 18, 2007
11:00 am
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WDad

Thanks for your response.

You seem to have some very clear-cut convictions about things and I appreciate your sharing those with me. For myself, I believe there are still questions and I will continue to be open to those- that dratted life-long journey!!

If there are those that choose to respond to the porn issue again, I hope the responses you do get here are helpful and gratifying to you in what you are seeking from this. I'll be in and around the emporium, asking myself the questions, supporting freedom of expression!!

Thanks again.

Later, porn guy :~)

October 18, 2007
11:45 pm
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What's MTF?

Male transforming to female?

free

October 18, 2007
11:47 pm
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I'm surprised that 5 % of people never gave or recieved oral sex. jeez.

And- THAT many people had they're butt penetrated?

OUTCH!

That's an exit thank you very much.

free

October 18, 2007
11:48 pm
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free
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oh wait-

Is the butt penetration with winkies wd?

Or fingers.

free

October 19, 2007
12:50 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Free,

MTF is "male to Female" transsexual.

Yeah, the butt thing! Apparently girls in Seattle do their boyfriend's butts. The survey only asked about penetration--with something. The editorial was to the effect of "we don't know if that was with fingers, dildo, or fire hydrant!"

As long as we are on the topic of "deviance" and butt-sex, I ought to check in with data.

I have been with three women who really liked it, and climaxed during.

My last partner, the one I was engaged to, seemed to require it as part of her quality of life. I mean like every time, every night.

As a man, I was literally in a position of "can't I finish someplace other than your butt tonight honey? Please, just this once?"

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