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WD Invites you...
April 22, 2005
11:48 am
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gazelle
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Sorry if that sounded unpleasant or like any kind of attack. I really didn't mean it to.

One of my own problems is in trying to learn to be assertive without either sounding aggressive on the one hand, or bottling it and 'wimping out'on the other.

I am neither hysterical nor controlling. But my ex's flattened affect and almost schizoid lack of engaged response to serious issues over 23 years conditioned me to over-state my case in desperate hopes of eliciting reactions.

So please bear with me as I struggle to override this tendency.
Any suggestions welcome.

April 22, 2005
11:49 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Gazelle,

In my comparing myself to “most guys” yes, I am talking about tests and the self-reporting of people who know me in “real life.”

Choleric isn’t strictly about anger—it’s about passion and persistence.

I’m not berating women—I’m saying that that people sometimes have unreasonable expectations. It is unreasonable to think that they will not interpret your intentions based on the precise text that comes out of your mouth or keyboard, but instead expect them to read your mind.

Okay, your questions.

1) Did you study psychology / relational dynamics or whatever in order to learn about social rules that most people seem to pick up naturally, but which, for you, required conscious study?

No, I did not require much study in order to learn social rules—I have been well socialized for quite some time.

2) May I ask whether you often feel bemused by people's reactions? ...
No, I don’t.
3) unsure what response is expected from you?
No, not often, most people make their expectations explicit.
4) or aware that there is unspoken emotional loading behind their words, and that you disappoint people by not picking up on it?
Yes, sometimes people want me to understand things that are not made obvious by their words.

It is not that I consider it a “skill” to be insensitive to people’s feelings. But as I said, I am not a mind reader and I do not feel compelled to fulfill unreasonable expectations.

I am here mainly to respond to posts on very specific topics. I believe the people I address on those threads find me to be warm, empathetic, and sometimes helpful.

April 22, 2005
1:09 pm
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gazelle
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Thanks! I got the wrong end of the stick about your early socialisation, from your story about living with a much older woman for 11 years since the tender age of 17. Wrong conclusion about community living too. (Based on friends in Waldorf communities because of fear of abandonment in the 'real world'- but all v different situations from yours.) And because I fear abandonment so much myself, as a codependent daughter of a wonderful deceased Dad, now desperately missed, who was an emotionally-incontinent alcoholic & who loved me more deeply than anyone else ever has. My issues. SO sorry.

On reflection, perhaps I was projecting stuff about my ex and various Asperger-type friends onto you that seemed to give out similar signals. Mea culpa!

I'll bow out now, chastened, & maybe read on in silence awhile.

Peace & goodwill - gazelle.

April 22, 2005
1:53 pm
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Juanita
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To me - we all need to use 3 components to "think" clearly.

1) our brains (to see logic / fact)
2) our hearts/emotions (for compassion and love in each decision - to have faith when logic fails us)
3) our gut. (our mysterious intuition that guides us when logic and emotions collide and we can't decide)

I tend to follow my heart as when I think, I over do it! Analyze every little thing, from every little possible angle.... gets me into a rut of kaliediascope proportions that I can't seem to get out of easily. Too many options sometimes (I can get into that more later - only on a 30 min. lunch break)! With my heart, it's simple (sort of). I know my emotion. I love, I hurt, I'm happy or sad.

WD's learning to temper his passionate side CAN be a useful tool when used in moderation, at the right times. I hope you do not use it all the time. Such restrain on a passionate creature (note, I did not use the word 'soul') must take massive amounts of self-discipline. Too much self-discipline is like all work and no play. That would be tiring and wearing to one's own being (in my opinion).

To hear WD express his emotion at times is great indeed. Which is why when he replied emotionally to me on a thread long ago - it really meant alot, AND why when he wrote his cyber poem, I took it as a compliment. I think WD thought I took it the wrong way. Perhaps I did, but to me, for WD to think of 'Juanita' in a humourous/romantic/fun poem - Hell! It was humourous romantic and fun! All good emotions - triggered IN PART by humourous, flirtatious me. WD can say it was all in jest, but I am still complimented. He didn't think about anyone else when writing it. (and as a romantic sort - shit yeah - I'll take it! Buffers my little ego a little too) As respected as you are for your knowledge WD, you are also respected for your feelings. You need to use both logic and emotion to be well balanced, and thereby achieve harmony.

It is nice to hear you think I'm a special 'case' (ha! 'case??') but you have to bite your cyber tongue with me? Perplexing ... you make me wonder about what. I don't know whether you consider me to appeal to your whimsical/emotional side or if I'm a nice, well intentioned, pain in your butt. Please note, my TONE has humour in it!! Earlier in this thread, I did not consider myself 'special' and to hear you coin me as a 'special CASE' struck a funny bone. Aren't I glad I'm simply going with emotion and NOT analyzing this one... oh the myriads of color in my spectrum now!

oh my! I'M LATE FOR WORK! Gotta run! no time to proof read! Hope I didn't say something totally bizarre or off the wall!!!!

gotta run!

April 22, 2005
2:45 pm
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gazelle
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Hi, Twinks! I agree that there are many possible reasons why people refuse to engage emotionally, or are "witholding" (sometimes as a means of control - of themselves & of others.) Not all have Aspergers, of course. Other reasons could be depression, having a schizoid personality-type, (NOT at all the same as schizophrenia!) or over-active & inappropriate defence mechanisms because of past hurts, etc, etc.

I really think / feel you & I need to talk more about our experiences & perceptions on all this. I'm certain we could understand & learn from each other. I'll start a thread of my own here to discuss all those issues.
See you there soon!

Juanita - YES! I identify with your vibrant post so much. As I've repeatedly said before on here myself - we need to engage more than just our left-brain logic in our human interactions if they are to be whole and fulfilling. Good on ya, girl! My head, heart & gut all say you ROCK!

Love, gazelle.

April 23, 2005
8:14 pm
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Juanita
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Firstly, I must say thank you to you ladies for such wonderful compliments on my person. (I missed saying that on my prev post).. I don't think of myself as vibrant or exuberant, so it is interesting for me to see what other people think of me. I tend to view myself as very simplistic. If you ever heard the song "Juanita" by Shaina Twain - it is about getting in touch with the wild woman within & getting to know her a little or a lot... which is what I've been trying to embrace. We only go around once that we know of! I greatly do not want to have any regrets when my 'time' comes.

Thought I would stop in & see if WD had posted. Noticed he is either mulling over my questions, or biting his tongue. Not sure which - but I like him - so I thought I'd tickle his fancy with some little silliness from my day... and this tale is completely true!

I have a retarded Beta Fish! The same one who leapt from his tank to kiss me, that after my tossing him so ungracefully back into his tank, used to bury his head in the gravel - I took him for as good as dead ... I mean the darn thing was literally doing HEAD STANDS in the gravel! Completely 100% true... He was one step away from a merciful encounter with a freezer ... a new Beta already purchased so sure was I the other one would expire at any moment. So, after moving him into a smaller tank (he was on death's door afterall), the new Beta having bigger tank, both tanks side by side... (I didn't have the heart to freeze him to death as the store clerk said to do.) I now have two Beta Fish at home, and the deathly ill one has come back from the dead! Apparently, I need to change my way of thinking about this fish. He is not retarded. He is a reincarnated dog I think... He does Head Stands with his tail completely straight up... he lays down completely flat to play DEAD... he stands up completely 100% erect ON his TAIL... & he can splash, swim spuratic circles, and still attempts to leap out of his tank! This fish is a maniac. I mean he hits the lid of his tank trying to get out... Not only that - but when he is standing up on his tail - mouth at the surface, not moving ... I can use my finger to touch his face and move him around - he doesn't move! Come on now ... this is one weird fish. He is now a great source of amusement and amazement. Silly thing! (The new one, BTW, just kinda sits there & does nothing - hmmm)

Do I have a serious post inside me? Somewhere, but not appearing tonite. Mulling over what I want to post, but not fully formed yet.

Hoping everyone is having a good nite. Hoping WD is enjoying creating his music. I am off to chase a kid or two, and enjoy a movie with popcorn.

April 27, 2005
8:20 am
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Juanita
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WD?? You ok?

May 1, 2005
10:15 am
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Juanita
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I guess I asked too much. Backing off...

Just a simple 'thinking of you'

May 1, 2005
10:45 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Juanita,

Remember what I said about people needing to be careful about not taking things personally? I just took a couples of days of the site to get some things done, sweety.

WD

May 2, 2005
8:38 am
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Juanita
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WD -

Dear man - to me, I asked you a couple of sensitive questions a few posts back, and saw you replied to other posts but not mine. As I've said before, I do not want to hurt you in any way. How could I not think that I may have triggered something? I know I may make you uncomfortable saying this - but I do worry about you and think about you. It is just in my nature to want to make sure you (or anyone I care about) are ok. That's what friends and support are about.

You are not alone in this 'worrying' of mine - it is in my genetics! I can't help myself.

:o) welcome into 'me' !! :o)

thanks for the 'sweety'...

right back at you :o)

May 2, 2005
11:45 am
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Worried_Dad
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Juanita,

Searching for sensitive questions…oh, found some. Remember I got into sort of a scuffle after you asked these, so your questions kind of got lost in the dust.

Juanita asked: “May I ask you why you have a low tolerance for compliments, and don't like it when people like you too much? Low self esteem?.....I have never asked, so pardon if this is a sensitive topic from me to you, but, have you forgiven yourself? (Do you think you need to forgive yourself?)”

Answers: 1) I don’t know. I know that I am easier with compliments about my skills or work I have done.

2) I don’t know if I will ever completely “forgive myself.” I know it’s kind of irrational, but I will always think I could have dome more to protect my son. At least I don’t hate myself any more.

Thanks for asking

May 3, 2005
8:44 am
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Juanita
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WD

(((hug))) Just thought you could perhaps use one.... perhaps I'm just in the mood to give one.

Got some good news yesterday that I don't know what to do with. Work is rewarding us with a decent bonus. Decent enough that I could afford an airline ticket to go visit a friend. I've been debating about this for a long time, never wanting to suck money away from the household to go. I have two dear friends who, unfortunately, live far away. A long weekend away to see one or both of them would be a treat. (TX or DC - soon to be IL)

I tell my spouse & I don't know what reaction I expected. He says 'I support you in whatever you decide... do whatever you feel you have to do to be happy'.

Your earlier comments about women reading too much into statements resounds within my brain.

It bothered me - his choice of words "do whatever you FEEL you HAVE TO do".

We discussed how he used to go away w/e's with the guys & I never minded. I've never gone anywhere. Back then, we countered his spending for those trips with my buying myself something I liked (clothing, shoes, jewelry - nothing big - $100 or less - no kids back then!).

He pointed out he never left me with the kids alone, but also he said could handle it.... but didn't want to drive me into the major airport to drop off or pickup with the kids.

sigh. How could getting something good turn into such a debacle?

I think the only thing I'm doing is banking that bonus until I know what to do. Unfortunately (?) it will probably be put to practicle uses such as bills or a family get away. Something so selfish as a w/e get-away for myself seems depressing now.

Have I mis-read him? Am I over-reacting? I'd like your perspective...

May 3, 2005
9:16 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Juanita,

Couples that do not intentionally make time to be away from each other end up having problems. Of course you should take a trip if you want.

Are you saying that you have never been alone in the house with your children? I find that hard to believe.

Handing off child care is a normal part of a marital coparenting relationship. Wise couples become skillful and graceful in doing that.

My sister has a test for prosepective boyfriends. It is called "the airport test." A guy who takes you to the airport and then picks you up when you get back is worthy of beiung your boyfriend. A guy who wont gets kicked to the curb.

Your husband says do whats right for you but he wont help you get to the airport. What a passive aggressive move. Your husband is a weasel.

Well, if you have two cars, take one and park it. Othrwise, if your husband wants to support you, he should carry you to the airport on his back if necessary.

May 5, 2005
10:32 am
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mamacinnamon
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WD: To you personally.

(I don't want any comments back on this coz this is for me and WD)

I appreciate what you wrote downstairs and I do understand with the war going on how you could feel that way. I even give you that morning grumpiness margin 🙂 .

I am fully in appreciation for this site's anonymity and I don't want to break that for anyone. But, I do feel I need to point this out just because ummm.... (loss for words here) so you'll know.

I wanted to tell you that I do know WhiteDove personally. She is a very shy person w/ lots of insecurities. It's been to my urging that she has started posting recently. I met her about 7 months ago and in working with her on her issues I found this site. This site has been a real blessing in helping her and myself w/ issues. She's come a long way.
I'm really proud of her. And I am sending this w/ her permission.

So, if I come out like a mother hen I apologize to you. I just wanted to take the opportunity to bring out how fragile some folks can be. And I know what shits come and go here also.

I truly don't want you to feel bad for standing up for this site or for what you believe in. I do it also. I admire the "father bear" that I see in you. I just really felt the need, maybe for myself or whatever, to let you know that not all are "shits". lol.

I am sorry, I am finding myself at such a loss of words on what to say. I truly don't want your feelings hurt coz you are truly a good man and someone I look up to. Your wisdom has helped me more than I can say.

So, that said. Thanks tons, loads, bunches for apologizing to her. I really wish there was a way that nobody could see this, but maybe we will all learn. I learn so much each day from the good folks here.
I appreciate you. 🙂

Ok, i'm finished. Chin up and let's go help folks??? love you.

May 5, 2005
11:34 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi MamaC,

Well, after waking up and getting some coffee, I did have an attack of conscience--that small still voice that tells me I am being an asshole.

I've offered a more sincere apology, and gopefully we can still be friends. As far as possible on an anonymous site.

May 5, 2005
11:44 am
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mamacinnamon
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WD: I'm honored to be your friend. Thanks. 🙂

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