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WD: Found a DV Court Report about my friend online--Warning: horrible, graphic violence
July 16, 2008
12:06 pm
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Worried_Dad
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MsGuided,

Wow, same planet different world.

And again, you go to the trouble of inventing elaborate fantasy about me and then talking about it as if it were true. I don't know how you react when intruded upon but you have no problem being intrusive yourself.

That's what I meant by "the kind of person who hurts people."

Absolutely incredible. Even after it has been pointed out to you you just cant help yourself.It's as if not only do you not care, but you actually seem like you some kind of thrill out of it.

It will be best for me if you and I do not have any interactions in the near future.

July 16, 2008
12:26 pm
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WD,

As far as I can see, you were the only one who pointed this out "Even after it has been pointed out to you you just cant help yourself."

That doesn't make it true. Just your perception.

My perception is that asking for or intimating that an apology is in order is a tetch dramatic. MsGuided isn't particularly special to you, is she? That she hurt you so badly by her words that she needs to recant publicly to you, Worried_Dad?

MsGuided and some of the rest of us, as women who have been abused, present another viewpoint - how SnowFlower could, might interpret actions such as yours if she found out they were directed toward her. Well intentioned as you say they are, they might be interpreted differently, as is evidenced by the reactions of the women here.

As Free wisely stated "And this is gonna be the world that this woman you care about sees.

So there's something to be gleaned..."

The support I can see in this for you is in the feedback you received. While it might not have been pats on the back of ((hugs))) for you, even though it may not have seemed like it was about you, it could be about you or, hopefully, a future you, if you are able to grow from this experience, and not just lapse into old patterns. That's my hope for all of us.

(((All of us)))

July 16, 2008
1:19 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Bevdee,

Yes, when I point out that someone is hurting me by making up an untrue story about me--yes, that makes it true.

It's not the being too stingy to apologize that gets me. It is the refusal to stop repeating the same hurtful behavior over and over and over.

Most responses here have been supportive.

But I gotta tell you, the toxic responses and the support those toxic responses have gotten from people like you have taught me a lesson: Do not discuss sensitive personal issues at AAC.

July 16, 2008
1:27 pm
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bevdee
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Aw WD, I'm not toxic, I'm benign. :~) You give me too much weight, too much credit - you and I have no relationship here.

I am just going to re-post what I did earlier in this thread from the SC. "And also - "Yes, the key to the threads, is 'self' not 'others'. And it may have just took someone ******* *** *** or 'dismissing you' or you watching [someone] 'dismiss others' to learn something... there's lots to learn, but some folks do get hurt. That's the #1 reason for anonymity."

I thought that was very wise. This site also purports that there is often growth from the arguments, but I really don't see one in this thread, unless you make it.

WD, peace to you and your love, Snow Flower. I wish you both healing love on your journey.

July 16, 2008
2:39 pm
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MsGuided
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"Aw WD, I'm not toxic, I'm benign. :~) You give me too much weight, too much credit - you and I have no relationship here."

Ditto.

If she posted here about her situation I'm sure she would of gotten lots of kind support.
To me. You invaded her personal space without her asking for your help...thats' toxic!
Having compassion is also to respect a persons dignity,( especially after it has been shredded to bits by a monster!)Putting the need to KNOW aside, in this instance, stands out to me as very positive and kind.
Let the victim choose what they want to reveal.

July 16, 2008
6:14 pm
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StronginHim77
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I have been following this thread. This very, very LONG thread. Seems to me that a valid point has been made: if you have no personal relationship with the posters here on these anonymous threads, WD, why such a vehement reaction to any of them? Why the need to defend yourself with such extensive verbage?

Might be more beneficial to your personal situation with Snowflower to read these postings and try to gain AN ABUSED WOMAN's perspective on your Google-gleaned information about Snowflower. A different viewpoint has been brought forward. I think Wisdom would be served by giving it NON-emotional consideration, rather than considering it a personal attack.

My opinion on this whole thing? Once you started reading and recognized that it was a highly-personal, highly-detailed court record of her sufferings, (say, 2 to 3 sentences into the text of the records?), why didn't you just STOP READING. I would have. That would have honored her privacy AND shown alot of respect on your part for her feelings. You could always have approached her, acknowledging stumbling across the site and reassured her that -- without her permission -- you would not choose to read it, as you have no desire to invade her privacy or her past.

Just a suggestion. Another perspective, if you will from peacemaking....

...Ma

July 16, 2008
10:03 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Dear God in Heaven.

Bevdee, I was considering you to be a supporter of the toxic posts, not a toxic poster yourself.

Stronginhim,

It was a personal attack. MsGuided continues to make personal attacks, and doesn't seem to have the least bit of conscience about it.

I don't recall asking for anyone's opinion about the propriety of me Googling someone's name, or reading PUBLIC INFORMATION that was posted on the internet. Information that is PUBLIC, not private.

Does anyone recall me requesting feedback on that issue?

Only Free has had the presence of mind to observe that it was *not helpful* to me to get unrequested feedback on that issue.

Has is occurred to anyone here that I have not harmed anybody by reading that web page?

The prequel to me reading that web page titled "Court of Appeals" was that a few weeks ago, my Boss told me that the offender was shortly to be released from jail.

Then I found a web page describing the results of the offender's attempt to have his conviction reversed.

Violence occurred at my workplace, and Snow Flower was not the only victim involved, and nobody bothered to tell me about it. Only that I ought to keep my eyes peeled for the guy.

So darn tootin' I was intensely curious about whether or not the offender had actually gotten out of jail!

The more I think about it, the more I realize that it is a very good idea for me to Google each and every person who works with me.

Ma Strong, you asked me about why I would have a strong reaction to what people say to me here.

It's an anonymous forum, but I do feel a personal connection to posters here, and I feel a connection to the culture here. And I am a human being.

And, you probably recall that I originally came here as a devastated, barely surviving "survivor" of domestic violence and therapist abuse.

And a huge part of the abuse I survived involved false accusations and attacks on my character and morality.

And I'm touchy in that regard. "Easily triggered," as they say.

I appreciate that some posters here are abused women.

But I don't like women using their history and status as "abused women" to launch personal attacks against me.

I know it's asking a lot, but I wish that women who have been posting here for awhile, and who ought to sort of know me by now, before accusing me of this and that would remember that I too have a history of pretty bloody awful violence, and consider what the *impact on me* of their words might be.

Instead, there is a repeated pattern where a woman or two will pull a victim-card, jump on me, and then when I react to that verbal violence, there is a chorus about isn't it something how WD is so hard on these poor victimized women.

July 16, 2008
10:23 pm
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Isis
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WD,

As I stated before, I understand.

I understand you, and where you're coming from.

No judgements from me.

Often times people project their own "stuff" onto others- especially when they've been "triggered" by something they've heard, seen, or read.

You were a victim, no different from many woman posting their thoughts on the matter.

You are a survivor of serious abuse.

I feel your pain.

Take care,

Isis

(((WD)))

July 16, 2008
10:23 pm
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StronginHim77
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WD -

Well, it's good that you recognize what your "triggers" are. Hopefully, the postings from abused women on this thread will help you in your interactions with Snow...give you a different perspective.

You did not voice any response to my suggestion that you could have simply STOPPED READING when you perceived the intensity of the court record which you stumbled across. I realize that you are upset by some of the postings on this thread, but you seem to have overlooked, responding to that suggestion. Your thoughts?

- Ma

July 17, 2008
12:54 am
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sdesigns
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WD: Just wondering....I've been around for quite awhile and I have read many posts by you about your story.

Your history with abuse is indeed severe and you did suffer greatly from it. In fact your story was absolutely shocking.

I wonder if the fact that SF has also suffered terribly makes her more attractive to you, in that you have that in common? Maybe your empathy towards her is drawing you to her?

sd

July 17, 2008
3:02 am
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The person/people to be angry with is/are the ones who posted on the internet something with a victim's actual name. THAT is emotional rape. THAT was insensitive, calloused, and every other nasty word one can muster up.

It's not just being read by wd. It's being read by whoever stumbles across it.

Peoples: you're shooting the messenger!

c'mon.

free

July 17, 2008
4:01 am
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Hi Isis,

Thanks--It helps to get some balance from the board.

Hi, StronginHim77,

"You did not voice any response to my suggestion that you could have simply STOPPED READING when you perceived the intensity of the court record..."

Oh, I thought my response to that was implicit.

First, you might remember that I am a very, very fast, reader. I would have had to put on the brakes almost before I stopped reading.

I also think I have explained, one way or another, is that despite the fact that I had and have mixed feelings about reading the court decision:

1) In the first few seconds after stumbling on the page, I was very curious and really wanted to read the material.

2) In the final analysis, it turns out that it was helpful, and a good idea for me to read it, and the world is a better place for me having read it.

3) Furthermore, now that I think about it, it would have been MORALLY WRONG for me to have stopped reading, once I realized what I was looking at.

July 17, 2008
4:16 am
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Hi sdesigns,

Yeah, I've wondered that myself, about the shared victimhood thing, and I am infamous for being drawn to women in distress.

It wouldn't just be that though.

I didn't used to be attracted to her--it just kind of snuck up on me over the last four years.

I'm am attracted to intelligent women, and this one is about to be awarded her Ph.D., in my own field of research after all.

And it helps that her precocious daughter is almost exactly the same age as my son. Really great kid.

And Snow Flower is famous for her sweet, kind nature.

And it doesn't hurt that she is just plain beautiful.

July 17, 2008
6:52 am
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Caressa
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Even negative seeming response is better than non response? No?

July 17, 2008
10:40 am
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StronginHim77
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Caressa,

Why do you end most of your sentences with "No?"

Just curious.

- Ma Strong

July 17, 2008
11:56 am
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Hepburn
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Hi WD,

I've been following this thread and didn't think I would jump in, but here I am. ha It was good practice for me in regards to my "react" issues. Cause I felt my blood boil a few times....

But I'm glad I read without responding until now.

Seems like this thread has come full circle. After being beat about the head for googling and reading about your friend, point is what's done is done, so now you take from THAT whatever you get from it. It was thought provoking for all of us.

I think the real issue here is that, like myself, you are a rescuer/fixer. If a man is in transition, distress, down on his luck, etc within 100 miles of me, I'll find him. ha And if he's attractive? Then I'm really in trouble!

Trying not to get emotionally involved with people who we "think" need rescuing is the challenge.

SF is exceptionally smart, nice and beautiful to boot? What's not to like? It's the "intention" that we have to be careful with. JMO

Good luck to "you".

Peace.

Hep

July 17, 2008
1:40 pm
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Hi WD,

I'm a latecomer but here's my two cents on your original post. You said that it made you feel dirty even knowing what had happened - that's pretty telling. It seems to me that the feeling dirty is a good indicator that you knew in your gut that you had read across a boundary, if that makes any sense - and my take is that your post was a kind of confessional. Buuuuuutttt ... if that's the case, it was because in your gut you also knew that it was deeply, deeply private information that she would probably be mortified to know was being read by someone she works with. I would.

The interesting part to me is that you elaborated on the details of what happened to her - in effect re-publishing what had happened. That's different than simply writing that the abuse had been horiffic - and you flagged the graphic details in your thread title. Yes, this is an anonymous site. And yes, there is a staggering amount of legal information on the Web. But you felt the need to "re-tell" the details and that strikes me as a bigger boundary cross than simply stumbling across the information, or even writing anonymously that you had stumbled across information that was disturbing.

I guess what I'm saying is that we're all culpable - I read your thread despite (maybe because of?) the "graphic details" tag - and you put the "graphic details" tag on there. Now there has been considerable back and forth about this poor woman who has been thrtough so much ... why the need to re-tell the details, and to flag them?

H.

July 17, 2008
1:51 pm
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Isis
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"My head is swimming to know what she had to go through. I can't even get angry about it. I just feel like crying and also like throwing up. It makes me feel dirty just knowing this."

Perhaps a PTS reaction? A trigger?
WD is a victim of DV and abuse. Abuse victims, rape victims- they blame themselves for their abuse.

SF's child- WD's lost child.

There's a lot of stuff here.

Codependency is a hard habit to kick.

Healing is a lifelong journey.

Keep talking Worried_Dad.

Much love,

Isis

July 17, 2008
8:17 pm
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healin! So good to see you :o)
I don't come here much anymore and you are one of the people I miss.

You've asked some questions to points which I raised that were ignored. Thanks for articulating them so clearly. Here's some of what you wrote:

healintime 17-Jul-08

[...] You said that it made you feel dirty even knowing what had happened - that's pretty telling. It seems to me that the feeling dirty is a good indicator that you knew in your gut that you had read across a boundary ... in your gut you also knew that it was deeply, deeply private information that she would probably be mortified to know was being read by someone she works with.

The interesting part to me is that you elaborated on the details of what happened to her - in effect re-publishing what had happened. That's different than simply writing that the abuse had been horiffic - and you flagged the graphic details in your thread title. Yes, this is an anonymous site. And yes, there is a staggering amount of legal information on the Web. But you felt the need to "re-tell" the details and that strikes me as a bigger boundary cross than simply stumbling across the information, or even writing anonymously that you had stumbled across information that was disturbing.

[...] I read your thread despite (maybe because of?) the "graphic details" tag - and you put the "graphic details" tag on there. [...] why the need to re-tell the details, and to flag them?"

. . .

It was noted, WD, that you posted this on the libs side rather than the support side. You've been around here long enough to know the difference. Presumably you also know the difference between making "I" statements (such as, "I found something disturbing about a colleague and I'm really upset about it") and telling someone else's story.

You also style yourself as somewhat of an 'expert' on abuse and domestic violence.

So... as Caressa says... maybe the object of this thread was something other than the ostensible one.

July 18, 2008
12:01 am
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"something other than the ostensible one"

like what?

The shame response is common amongst abuse survivors. He didn't feel dirty kuz he did something wrong. He felt dirty because he found out someone's "secret." Like when he kept a "secret." In reality, it's no secret, she's been through the legal system. Letting out secrets and telling secrets and finding out secrets is a big thing, and will trigger a shame response. It's tell tale sign of an abuse survivor because others react with anger or disgust.

and we don't know- she may have been asked if using her name was okay and said yes.

I've been asked, I just said no and it was honored.

free

July 18, 2008
4:20 pm
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Spot on free.

Hey Worried_Dad,

Just stopping by to say- hey! Hope you're doing well and wishing you a happy weekend.

Isis

July 18, 2008
9:24 pm
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Hi Kroika,

I posted on this side because the material was quite disturbing.

Yes, I can imagine my friend being unhappy that such personal information is considered public domain and is visible for the world to see.

You and I see things differently-I don't see myself as having crossed any boundary, large or small.

At the time of my post, my head was swimming, and I felt like sharing what had happened, horrible details and all, because I didn't want to be alone with it. It's as simple as that.

You seem to be putting some effort into shrinking me and seeking complex hidden motives, rather than working with the simplest and most obvious explanation for things. That usually leads us to falsehood.

"You also style yourself as somewhat of an 'expert' on abuse and domestic violence."

Not exactly. I don't "style myself" as "somewhat of an expert" on abuse.

I believe myself to be THE EXPERT on the phenomenology of abusive relationships.

July 19, 2008
8:06 am
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Hi WD,

Kroika, for the most part, simply re-posted what I had written, and I'd encourage you to direct your comments my way ... except that I, uh, would prefer that you didn't.

There is plenty of disturbing material on the support side - plenty. Libs is for discussion and presumably you posted what you posted (in a forum) anticipating feedback. As a long-termer on the threads you can't possibly -not- have known (especially as either "an" or "the" expert on abusive relationships) that women on this site who have been abused would be triggered and appalled at the idea of the most painful details of this woman's past being up for public consumption - not once but twice.

You simply felt the need to share someone else's painful story because it didn't sit comfortably with you. That's understandable. But I guess that everyone's own story is - their own. I feel, strongly, that someone else telling my story for me would be a violation. And I feel that my right to keep my story private would outweigh someone else's discomfort at having to be "alone" with the most painful parts of my past - especially details that I had specifically chosen not to share with them in person.

This is a discussion forum - I am the survivor of an abusive relationship and that's my contribution. I didn't tear you down, I didn't attack you and I certainly don't come to the libs side expecting that the simplest and most obvious reasons for anything are going to be a given. It's a discussion forum.

H.

July 19, 2008
9:38 am
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Hi Healintime,

Thank you for sharing your feelings. Again.

I responded to Kroika, instead of you because you, unlike others, did not engage in any “tearing down,” attempting to psychoanalyze me, or just plain tell me I was a liar. I am responding to you now, because you maybe think I did not hear you the first time.

Like I said, I made my first post soon after I made my “discovery.” About 30 seconds later. I was still in a shock and hysteria frame of mind at the time. In that emotional frame of mind, it did not occur to me that some people would take offense to me talking about an anonymous third person.

Like I have said, I appreciate how some people could be triggered by what I posted. I regret that my flagging my own post with “Warning: horrible, graphic violence” was not sufficient warning to discourage people who might be easily triggered from getting involved in the thread.

I made the mistake of thinking of this place as something like a counseling group where I could safely share things that were bothering me. In retrospect, I wish I had simply gone to a counseling group, where I could have gotten support in working with my emotions, rather than being dragged repeatedly into conversation about the meta-content.

If I had gone to a group that was actually “all about counseling,” I wouldn’t have had to spend days addressing the issue of how offensive it was that I came to a counseling group to talk about things that were bothering me.

Really, this thread has been more traumatizing than that awful appeals court document.

So, like I said, I will be much more careful about discussing sensitive, personal material here in the future.

No, I didn’t expect that people would be attempting remote psychoanalysis, inventing stories about me and just plain calling me a liar.

This being the “libs” side did not diminish my expectation that people would have some manners.

Working with the simplest and most obvious explanation for things is a famous principle of scientific investigation, and it is also a principle of good manners. It is the opposite of “paranoia.”

I am suggesting that we spread the idea and try to incorporate it into our culture here.

July 19, 2008
1:11 pm
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WD -

If you have ever participated in face-to-face group counseling, you know that it can get "down and dirty." All participants are invited to voice their "take," feelings and/or reactions to the input shared by all within the group. And it is a very healthy forum for hearing perspectives, other than our own.

Having read and re-read this thread, I see no "attacks." I see no rudeness. I do, however, see opinions which differ from yours. I would encourage you to view these differing opinions as learning tools, rather than personal attacks.

You seem very sensitive to being considered (your own words) a "liar." I can only guess that someone in your past must have misjudged you harshly and accused you unjustly of lying. That would explain why you lept to such a conclusion, after reading these posts.

I think the motive of the posters on this thread has been to widen your perspective on this situation and help you gain an appreciation for how another person might differ in their response to your action(s). To me, that's healthy. In my own history on the AAC threads, there have been a number of occasions when posters said things which really stung...and (I felt at the time) WRONGED me. Looking back, those were frequently the posters who helped me the most, even though I didn't appreciate it at the time.

I think we grow when we can accept differing viewpoints without feeling the need to defend ourselves or feeling personally attacked.

You are rather well-liked on these threads and have made some very interesting comments and contributions during your time here. I don't think anyone has a low opinion of you, nor does anyone think you are a liar. I just think some posters were trying to help you take a stronger, deeper look at your own motives and emotional confusion, generated by this incident, in order to help you...not HURT you.

Peace.

- Ma Strong

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