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WD: Found a DV Court Report about my friend online--Warning: horrible, graphic violence
July 13, 2008
2:08 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi MsGuided,

The reason I bothered to post here, in this anonymous site where people come for support, is that I was having some very unpleasant emotions about the whole situation.

I don’t experience your “jumping in my shit” to be kind or helpful, or anything close to insightful.

Actually, you are being rather nasty. For example, it seems like you just called me a liar several times.

In other words, you are being abusive.

That doesn’t help me feel very safe in posting sensitive material here.

So I am going to spend just a little more time with you. Then ask that you “get with the program,” and bring some civility to your posts to me here—in which case I’ll chalk it up to learning and we’ll be ok.

Otherwise, I’ll ask you to buzz off.

Please refer to my first post to thewall where I offered some simple principles of mental health and getting along with people.

I explained the drawbacks of acting on our imagined ability to read another person’s mind, which always leads to acting on falsehood.

In other words, you are making the error of acting on a fantasy that you have in your head, and elaborating that fantasy to ridiculous proportions.

More to the point you simply do not know what the heck you are talking about.

Like I said, the court document—published on the exact same day that I Googled, was at the top of a list of 48,600 links resulting from a single Google search, and just underneath that list was a mind-boggling excerpt from a court document.

Now, it’s bad enough that you posted
“Court documents for non-celebrities don't get transferred to the web unless they have been used in press publications or used in some kind of web research.”

That was simply an error based on your mistaken confidence in your own knowledge—you were just too damn lazy to check your facts out. Which you could have easily accomplished in a short time, in the privacy of your own home with Google.

But then you go on to post:
“You have to go to the courthouse and request a specific file to see it, once you find out who the parties are…”

Now you have gone beyond ignorance coupled with arrogance, you have gone beyond being simply full of shit.
Now you are diving way off the deep end and constructing bizarre paranoid fantasies about me—and thinking it is actually OK for you to be acting on those fantasies by accusing me of acting out your fantasies.

And then it gets worse.

Having constructed your elaborate fantasy based on bullshit, you then use that as a foundation to construct even more elaborate fantasies based on even deeper bullshit.

And then you go on to invent more fiction—you invent a fiction about my friend, you invented another fiction about our relationship is going, etc.
And then using that enormous pile of fantasy as your foundation, you construct an even more elaborate fantasy about my psychology.

The sheer height, width, and weight, the elaborate detail of the fantasy world you have created in such a short amount of time is absolutely stunning.

MsGuided, You need to check yourself.

It’s ok that you are ignorant of how courts work. It’s ok that you don’t know how Google works. But it is a good idea to make sure that you actually make sure that you know what the fuck you are talking about before you act out in public.

You don’t know me, MsGuided, and it is impossible for you to get to know me as long as you prefer your fantasies about me to actually getting to know me.

Not only do you not know me, but you just don’t know people.

And your self-knowledge needs some work, too.

Based on your outlandish post, it is clear that you are unfamiliar with the four principles of mental health and good relationship that I posted above.

Until you get some practice applying those concepts you are going to be the kind of person who hurts people.

You have pissed me off MsGuided, but you have also hurt me.

And that is what this post is about.
Check yourself.

I’m suggesting that you put a bit of work—no, put a LOT of work, a WHOLE lot of work into becoming a person who does not hurt people.

A good place to start would be to use Google to research the meaning and definition of the word “apology.”

July 13, 2008
2:48 pm
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free
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Sounds like her case may have been used in a research paper about DV. If that's the case I'm pretty sure it's the TRIAL that was interesting to the researcher who published the article. Researches find our (victims of DV) cases by researching charges against our perpetrators using a penal code search. This guy got a jail sentence so it's gonna grab the attention of those seeking to learn about DV or further a cause for it such as to-be attorneys, psychology students, sociology students, women's groups, etc.

My own case for example gets studied because it was the first case in my area where felony stalking was prosecuted with a live victim. Lovely huh? "Hey, look, here's a case where the victim was able to testify! cool!" And stalking is a new crime- before 911 and the celebrity who was stalked and murdered, there was no "criminal terrorist threats" or "stalking", there was only harrassment. Anyhow, that's another topic.

My point is, the trial probably resulted in incredible healing for this woman. Silence and secrecy feed shame. She was questioned and cross-examined. She should have been made aware that her case is open to the public. I mean shoot, this guy has the right to write a BOOK and publish it. Can you imagine? A book on her case from the perptrator's perspective, completely trashing her in a convoluted attempt to show his innocence.

I'm having a hard time understanding why googling somebody's name is invasive. But that's not even what wd said he did.

He stumbled across it on accident.

His original post was to seek support and he's getting jumped on for accidentally stumbling across something regarding somebody he cared about.

jeepers.

Lighten up folks.

If I knew your names I'd probably goole you right now- see if I could understand why you're so dang hostile and protective of your past.

Kuz it's embarrassing? abused people aren't the ones who have something to be ashamed about. It's important to deal with that.

Not protect it.

free

July 13, 2008
5:26 pm
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Hi Free,

No, I did Google her name.

As to why the document was published, I went to the State court website and found this:

"Supreme Court and Court of Appeals Slip Opinions are Maintained on the Washington State Courts' Website for 90 days."

There are lots and lots and lots of published cases there. I'm not sure why they do that, but the material is right there in plain sight, part of the public record.

I don't mind MsGuided feeling protective of her own personal history.

It does piss me off when I rell a story of what I did and why I did it and someone thinks they are such a great mind reader they think the right to tell me "No, you didn't do this, you did the other thing, and this is why you did it...etc."

I am glad that *some people* around here, like you, have actually bothered to do the work of getting to know me.

July 13, 2008
8:22 pm
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Isis
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Hi Worried Dad,

I wouldn't reject you.

Having gotten to know you over the years (by way of reading your history)
more than actual dialogue with you, I understand your motivation.

I can also relate to your "seeing" Snow Flower's dark and threatening aura. I follow my gut- it's sort of like a sixth sense.

Sometimes it's a curse.

Anyway, be well, and try to be happy.

Isis

P.S. Would you consider moving this over to the support side? Just a thought.

July 13, 2008
10:22 pm
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Hi Isis,

I appreciate your vote of confidence.

I'm feeling better about the whole thing today--it was just that initial shock and awe that was a bitch.

I don't really have much in the way of "motivation" when I Google people's names. Most often, it is "just for the heck of it."

And when I found that particularly creepy link at the top of the page, I was curious.

July 13, 2008
10:59 pm
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Okay well ya googled her name.

She may have googled yours as well.

I google stuff and people all the time- it's more of an "inquiring minds wanna know"

I just don't think it's anything more than that.

Check this out though. A number of years ago, this guy across the street gave me the weebies. Something not right type of thing. Too "nice" to the neighborhood kids or something, including my own kids. Googled him- he was a registered sex offender on probation- they didn't do a neighborhood notification kuz apparently they only did/do that for high risk sex offenders and he didn't fall into that category. But he WAS having contact with kids on our street so I called the police dept and his butt got hauled back to jail. ANd, my kids and I did our own neighborhood notification- door to door and hung posters. got in the newspaper. Was cool.

I have googled every man I dated before I went out with him. That wasn't alot. After my divorce of course, as google isn't all that old. I sure wish I woulda had google when I was dating my ex.

Now wd, how is it at work with her? Same, or different?

free

July 13, 2008
11:58 pm
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Oh, Free,

You Googled the "nice" man next door and pried into his personal, private life? He probably feels violated and will refuse to date you now, you know.

Google is a girl's best friend.

Anyway..at work, with Snow-Flower?

The same.

I can't bring myself to ask her for a date.

I dunno...

Work is full of mission critical stuff--I don't want to joggle anyone's elbow.

I can see she is really, really busy, almost overwhelmed--Thesis, Kid, crazy ex trying to bust out of prison.

Then there is the compatibility thing: I'm an esoteric, she's an evangelical biblical literalist.

Then I see just how deep and awful her husband thing is...do I really want to have to deal with yet another (knife wielding) maniac.

And I just don't want to screw up the good things we have going on already, friendship-wise and professionally. I'll probably be collaborating with her professionally for the next 10-20 years.

Besides, I Googled her, so now I am unworthy.

🙂

July 14, 2008
1:34 am
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a bible literalist? And YOU wd?

Oh my goodness. That could be interesting.

Knife-weilding maniacs aren't very fun either.

maybe, just staying firends and thinking about what could/would have been yeah?

sometimes wanting is better than having. I think Dr. Spock said that on a Star Trek- "Amok time" if you're an old trekkie.

the google thing sure did hit a nerve with the natives.

But that's you wd- making the natives all restless and stirring up the coals.....

hey, that kind of thing leads to active growth and self speculation.

so it's a good thing.

I tink.

free

July 14, 2008
1:40 am
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Hi Free,

Yeah the Bible thing could easily lead to trouble. Already has, I guess. Our lab enjoys eating lunch together. We were discussing an article about human migration from Africa, and she asked didn't I believe the Biblical story of Adam and Eve, and I snapped "I believe in DNA!"

Probably lost any chance at some hot Biblical lovin' right then and there!

🙂

July 14, 2008
9:06 am
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Personally I'd not thought of googling a person I was goin out on a date w/. I do google my kids tho to see what's up w/ them. Specially my youngest. I will admit to lookin on the public records tho to see if the guy has any criminal background or cases pending. I need to join the big leagues w/ ya'll Free and WD.

July 14, 2008
1:56 pm
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StronginHim77
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If she is a Bible-based, evangelical Christian, she would not have much in common with you, WD. You do not share the same faith/value system which will lead to major problems down the road. But working together (you anticipate being professionally connected with her, 10-20 years down the road?) would be an equally strong deterrent in my book. What's that expression: "Never S^^t where you eat?" Lots of wisdom in that. Crude, maybe, but TRUE.

I would rethink this situation and keep it to myself, unless you are wiling to take on a heap of heartache.

- Ma

July 14, 2008
8:40 pm
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MsGuided
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Ok WD I'm glad you got that all off your chest.
And I am the kind who hurts people?You sure give yourself a lot of room to slam me around with words.

Well I may make mistakes, but if you think your little tear down session above ilustrates a stable person check again!
Check Yourself.
I can apply some of what you said above to you!

I can see how hostile a person can get when someone meerly says they have invaded someones privacy.
And that is what You did!

I remember in the past you stating you had interest, romantically, in this woman.

Most decent guys would step up and ask a woman out eventually or back off.

I don't see snow flowers particiaption here and to me this steps over the line of decency.

Afterall You said you are only a colleague. coworkers?
Most people post about their sig others..or conflicts about coworkers that are less intimate.You research things of a sexual nature about a coworker? ( ie. her relationship and troubles with her husband)
Hey! that's just me! I respect some bounderies!

I don't buy it that you looked into her X's criminal file to just learn about him.

Maybe I was a little off about my court document comments.
That doesn't warrant the length you went to about my nature.

l'ld rather be "off" in my way than yours.

Everyones lining up for your NS...now do I get it!

I would apologize to someone who deserves it, I have and I do.

July 14, 2008
8:48 pm
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MsGuided,

Your "nature?"

It's your behavior that pisses me off.

You made stuff up in your head about me and then used that as a basis for false accusation--you don't see a problem with that? Hello? Telling lies about people? You don't see a problem with that?

"You research things of a sexual nature about a coworker.."

There, another darn lie!

Doesn't truthfulness have any value to you? Isn't there some part of you, some bit of conscience that feels badly when you hurt somebody by telling a mistruth?

July 14, 2008
9:12 pm
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The document you looked up was for domestic violence?
WTH is that?
What is the basis of a maritol relationship?....what spurrs a domestic violence attack?
If i were to learn the details of an abusive situation it would be from the Horses mouth..or if i happened to be employed in a vocation that revolves around court documents, the law, or enforcement.

This to me Falls under the NOYB category.
Some things are just sacred and deserve trust! Sometimes you take a chance on others by not having to know every dark detail.

I would never seek out files that pertain to a "co-worker" that delve into their private relationship, between a husband and wife, their divorce, domestic violence incidents or anything thereof?

What on earth for?

July 14, 2008
9:26 pm
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MsGuided
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Let me put it this way.If My partner ( AND he was a suitor not a co-worker)went into my court files, looked them up back in 1995 when we met, It would be a huge red flag to me.

WHY?Because it is shameful, and painful, private and illustrates my life when it was the most vulnerable, and I never want to go there again. I would hope anyone who cares about me wouyld leave it in the past, because i want it that way.
Those details belong in the therapy room or with people I CHOOSE to share them with.

He also knew my X, had met him, and he was brave enough to not let him get in his way.

I doubt I would have anything whatsoever to do with him if he showed such diregard for my privacy!

Why would you give a damn anyway?

He was at least decent enough to take me at face value from the day we met. Not what someone else did to me...or what I did.

If he were a coworker who never disclosed his desire for me, and he did this it would creep me out even more!
It's obvious our definitions of bounderies are very different!

July 14, 2008
10:08 pm
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If it were me, and someone I was seeing dug deep into my husband's, or ex's court records, I would feel violated. I mean why? I might feel betrayed by a person's curiosity and the lengths they would go to obtain info about something I was unready or unwilling to share about myself.

The lack of privacy bothers me. "WHY?Because it is shameful, and painful, private and illustrates my life when it was the most vulnerable, and I never want to go there again."

Isn't this the reason so many rapes still go unreported? Publishing such painfully private details for anyone to see? It's for that very reason I did not press rape charges when Lucifer raped me and that was before the internet made info so accessible.

WDad, You sure have a lot of non-work-related stuff going on where you work. All the jobs I have had caution against that, and IMO, for godd reason. Sometimes, it's hard to remain professional once you step over some lines. A cult doctor of a cult that ruined your life! That must try your patience, to say the least. I would have to draw on all my reserves to remain professional. That's commendable that you two are able to maintain a professional facade!! Did I read in one of your old posts at one time that you were prosecuting that cult?

July 14, 2008
11:23 pm
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Let me try one more time.

Know that:

Here in the 21st century people commonly Google the names of people they know.

It is a practice that is largely
socially accepted and condoned as a typical, normal, unremarkable, everyday, part of life.

Start there.

Now, consider what's been going on in this thread.

1) I typed in a name, then hit "Enter." One click later I was looking at a page of text that contained information that I found upsetting.

2) I explain what happened in a post to AAC, shared with you that learning this made me feel "dirty," and concluded with:

"Maybe it would be better if I didn't know.

:(( "

Next thing I knew I was facing an intensely hostile, judgmental, and accusatory post from MsGuided.

A supportive response could have been as simple as "Ouch, that's gotta be a shocker. Hang in there, WD."

If someone absolutely "had to" comment about the practice of Googling people, I would have been Okay with someone saying to me "I guess you've learned something about the drawbacks of indulging your idle curiosity, WD."

To which I couldn't have said much except for "Well shit, yeah!"

July 15, 2008
12:05 am
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"Next thing I knew I was facing an intensely hostile, judgmental, and accusatory post from MsGuided."

Yea. well I guess you had to just step it up WAY too many notches yourself!You don't like opposition at all do you?
Pull the "AAC is for kind support" card....well conflict reveals and teaches just as much and this is the libs.

but I'm glad you came around to:

"I guess you've learned something about the drawbacks of indulging your idle curiosity, WD."
To which I couldn't have said much except for "Well shit, yeah!"

YW for helping you see this, dispite it's revelation by a hurtfull idiot like me. ;0P

July 15, 2008
12:10 am
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This uproar is begging the question:

Is it wrong to google a person's name?

Kuz I don't think it is.

free

July 15, 2008
12:34 am
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Hi MsGuided.

"The document you looked up was for domestic violence?"

Again, you are accusing me of something that never happened.

I didn't "look up" *any kind* of document. I Googled her name. I clicked on the link at the top of the page. Bang, I was looking at a document from a brand new court decision that had happened that very day.

Usually when I Google people's names that kind of thing doesn't pop up.

This is the first time in fact.

Usually, you just get a list of publications, a link to their Blog or to their MySpace page.

I didn't think I would be suddenly looking at a true-life horror movie.

As I explained in my very first post, I was not happy with the results of my Googling-- it was way too much information, and way shocking. And yes, it was creepy to see such awful, personal stuff right there online.

If I were the Court of Appeals, I would have XXX'd out the name of the victim of the case.

I'm emotionally divided here. On the one hand, it's weird to even know this stuff-and it's awful to know this stuff about my friend. On the other hand I am slightly pissed off at my boss for not telling me that another guy had been threatened by this maniac.

How all this relates to the fact that I have developed feelings for the woman?

I dunno, should I take extra special care not to Google people that I am fond of? I dunno. Would have saved me some pain in this case, for sure.

MsGuided, I do think you are out to lunch with statements like:

"Most decent guys would step up and ask a woman out eventually or back off..."

Mind you, you have just basically said that I am not a "decent guy."

That's an illustration of what I meant when I said that you do not know me and also that you don't know people very well.

Umm, I can't imagine what "backing off" would mean in this case. Quit my job and leave town? What?

And no, a "decent guy" is pretty careful about asking women out in a situation like this one--that is to say, when two people share a workplace.

If you had been following this story, you would know that I have lots of good reasons for not just blundering in and trying to date this woman--starting with the fact that we share a workplace!

And it sounds like you are writing a lot of romantic-sexual stuff into this script that has nothing to do with me or my friend.

"your desire for her is so deep , and so far unreciprocated by her in a romantic way"

Ummm. My "desire?" My "deep" desire?!

My desire is not only "deep," but it's "soooo deep?!"

"unreciprocated...?!" WTF?!

"a coworker who never disclosed his desire for me..."

OK, it sounds like you maybe think of yourself as an "object of desire?"

And maybe you think that other women think of themselves that way?

And maybe you think that is how men think of women? Including me?

And you maybe think that women are so "desirable" and men are so "desirous" that we want to go to the courthouse and look up their divorce records so that we have some kind of "in" that helps us get a date with them?!

I've never met a man like that, and it certainly doesn't describe me.

It's like a plot out of "CSI, Miami" or something.

July 15, 2008
12:56 am
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Shaney
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Even though Google is a widely used search engine, and most people have googled a person's name at one time or another - it still doesn't make it any less of an invasion of someone's privacy. And as innocent as you may feel that it is, WD, it doesn't negate the fact that she would more than likely be mortified if she knew that you read those very personal details of her life. I mean, you yourself admitted that it may have been best if you didn't even have that info. To Google, or not to Google... that is the question. If Googling really IS as innocent as you say, then how would you feel about telling her you did so?

And as far as being "abused" by MsG... come on. Really? Personally, I found your return post to be much more offensive and abusive than what I got from msG's original post. Just my opinion.

Peace all

July 15, 2008
1:18 am
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Yesterday, when I got to work and went to log on to the work pc, I saw that the director had left his log-on up. I stood there for about a minute, considering how rife with possibility this opportunity was. His email. I thought about right and wrong. It was wrong of him not to log out, in violation of company policy, but it would be wrong of me to disprespect his privacy, even though the info was there, begging to be read. Then I decided I had enought s**t of my own to deal with and loggged him out.

WD, maybe your boss didn't tell you or the others about the ex-husband since he is in jail now and no longer poses a physical threat to the workplace. Maybe he was afraid folks would freak out unnecessarily, like you have.

July 15, 2008
1:29 am
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Hi Shaney,

I don't much mind when people say things that are merely "offensive."

Best I can tell, I have been accused here of being a sexually obsessed stalker who engaged in immoral and illegal activity for the purpose of facilitating my sexual exploitation of a vulnerable person.

I summarize my response to MsGuided as: “You accused me of those things, and I am hurt and pissed off about it.”

I am open to feedback about my misperceptions and also about behavior of mine which might have been abusive.

July 15, 2008
1:30 am
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That's a good point, bev. I have had that happen at work several times, where a previous user (colleague) has not logged off. Sometimes it's tempting to want to see what's in their email. But.... that's one of those times when you have to look to your values to decide what to do, especially if you're unlikely to be found out.

When you Googled her name, WD, did the document spring up all open, or did you have to click on a link to get to it? And when you saw what it was... did you absorb it instantaneously with no time to make a decision about whether you should read it?

What are your values?

And hey.... what about that cult book? Still writing it?

July 15, 2008
1:35 am
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If I may step in w/ my whistle blowing and giving the time-out motion w/ both arms without getting jumped then I am doing so. If I am gonna get jumped give me a little warning coz it takes an old woman a minute to get her akickin boots laced up.

I am a bit more than miffed at the mentality of a bunch of adults(?) here. I do think the googling thing is a threadworthy subject. I'd even step in and scare the hell out of a few of you if you care to start one, but this thread is about Snow Flower and I've not seen her name mentioned but a time or two in passing or as bein thrown at one or another in days. I thought this thread was about the horrible things the poor woman went thru. I know her pain and would not want to be stampeded over so a few adults(?) could scream "foul", "I did not", "jumping", sounds like a fricken ballgame or something.

Now, back to the subject of Snow Flower, since the original post was about the horrific things that happened to her. I again say to you WD, It is gonna take this girl a long time to put this behind her. Be there for her and be understanding and empathetic. Don't push her to talk unless she wants too. I think the biggest thing my now hubby did when things started comin out and I would freak a bit was that he was always even tempered (not gonna go kill the sob) and he always had a kind listening ear. He then took what I said, example... I cannot stand for anything to touch my neck, and he was very conscientious about not touching my neck. If he started too he didn't freak and scream "oh my God, I'm gonna have to kill that mother". He just simply said "sorry hon" and put his hand elsewhere like my shoulder. We worked together thru things and when I did tell him things he was always supportive and had an "I'm sorry that happened to you hon" to say. Ok, if that was too mild the way it first happened was he touched my neck then I'll correct the record. I immediately jumped up and couldn't breathe, gasping I ran to the ladies room, slammed the door and sat in the corner crying my eyes out. Yes, that does tend to freak a guy out. But he didn't beat the door down. He had concern in his voice for my safety, not knowing what just happened, and he talked me into letting him in and I think in the end I was more embarrassed by my actions than by what had happened to me. Then the milder version happens. But whatever does or does not happen WD the best thing is to be supportive and empathetic.

I don't think I'd say over dinner "oh by the way, I googled you today and found....." For years now my mom has told me "hon you don't have to tell him everything". I think I am getting that now, not that I keep anything major from him. I don't think it would be a shock to anyone if you said "hon, today I was doin research and I got bored so I googled your name coz you were on my mind and some things came up that did upset me. Can we talk about them?" I know if someone said that to me I'd not be offended. Not if googling me were just a random act of boredom. Might even be kinda nice to have been thought of. That she has probably done also. Nuff said on that subject until it pops up on another thread.

Ok, now if everyone is back into their respective corners, let's talk about Snow Flower and how to help her w/o making her feel like a sideshow or a "victim". Really, most victims don't want to be looked at like they are victims. Really stinks a lot of the time.

🙂

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