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WD: Found a DV Court Report about my friend online--Warning: horrible, graphic violence
July 9, 2008
12:08 am
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Worried_Dad
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I've mentioned that I am...That I love a co-worker whose husband is halfway through a prison sentence behind a DV conviction. She has told me some of the story.

I was looking up some of her publications today and stumbled on a court transcript describing what happened.

It was just horrible. He not only beat her for ten years, but what finally got him put away was beating her, choking her almost unconscious and raping her at knife-point. He ripped out her pubic hair and also raped her with a liquor bottle.

Snow Flower is one of the sweetest, gentlest, kindest people I've ever met.

My head is swimming to know what she had to go through. I can't even get angry about it. I just feel like crying and also like throwing up. It makes me feel dirty just knowing this.

Maybe it would be better if I didn't know.

:((

July 9, 2008
12:19 am
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Yikes, I just noticed that the document is dated today. Looks like he tried to appeal his convictions today--based on mental incompetence.

The court tossed out his conviction for felony harassment DV, but upheld his conviction on two counts of second degree rape and two counts of fourth degree assault.

Men are disgusting.

July 9, 2008
1:26 am
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"Men are disgusting."

Wouldn't you classify that as 'hate speech' if anyone else (especially a female) said it, WD?

Just checking.

July 9, 2008
2:15 am
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Hi Kroika,

Thank you for your support.

July 9, 2008
2:33 am
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The anger will come wd.

This man who did this to snow flower is disgusting, not "men"

The dirty feeling is a shame response.

No need to feel shame at being a man. You'd never do such a thing.

You've been indirectly victimized.

I'm so sorry.

hugs

free

July 9, 2008
6:55 am
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Hey WD,

I'm sorry about your friend. How does anyone keep sweet gentleness after such atrocities? I couldn't. I wanted to share a suggestion I received from the SC in Dec/Jan in response to my email about anything other than support occuring in a support thread on Libs.

"2. I would suggest starting a thread for 'support
****** ******* ****, and I will support the 'protection of that' from posts from folks like
******* ***. Whoever starts the thread must make it
clear in a KIND WAY that it's a "support thread"
simply posted in the liberation brew area to be sensitive to people first coming to the threads. in other words, it 'should/could' be posted on the support side, but because these can be very severe trigger threads, we will put it in liberation brew."

And also - "Yes, the key to the threads, is 'self' not 'others'.
And it may have just took someone ******* *** *** or 'dismissing you' or you watching [someone] 'dismiss
others' to learn something... there's lots to learn,
but some folks do get hurt. That's the #1 reason for
anonymity."

I just took that to mean any discussion goes - on Libs.

I'm sorry your friend suffered, and I'm sorry for your pain. It's just horrible the pain that is inflicted on helpless men and women. No one should have to go through that.

July 9, 2008
2:14 pm
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WD:

I am so very sorry for Snow Flower. My heart breaks for her, and for you. It is sad and almost too hard to even imagine the pain and terrible things a human bein can do to another. Specially in the name of supposed love from bein their spouse or parent. I think of RW, Jigs, Zinnie's daughter, and so many others that have come thru here, and ya know as horrible as the things they have gone thru to read the threads here they survived and they are constantly healing. They have become fighters instead of victims. It is a lifetime process, but they have their lives to get it done. Same goes for Snow Flower and for you. May I ask if she is in counseling? I think that would be a good idea for her. Those that do get the counseling get so much further than those that do not (seems to me anyway).

Bev: thanks for your post. I think that needs to be heard, or I should say read. But anyway, we are supposed to be here for support and it seems there is very little of it anymore. Just my opinion.

Hang in there WD. Help get Snow Flower the help she needs and just be there for her. That's the most important thing she will from you or anyone in her circle of family and friends; support and empathy.

July 9, 2008
3:13 pm
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{{{{Worried Dad}}}}

Bitsy

July 9, 2008
6:29 pm
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(((WD)))

July 9, 2008
6:43 pm
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(((( WD )))))

July 9, 2008
8:09 pm
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(((((WD))))))

one for (((((Snow Fower))))))!

WD....be very patient, loving, caring and understanding with Snow Flower...She needs alot of TLC and support to get her through this and to overcome it all

July 10, 2008
1:21 am
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Thanks everyone.

I was just sort of anxious about seeing Snow Flower this morning, knowing ugly details about her life.

I actually feel OK about it now. I'm glad I know. It helps me understand her better, and it will help me be a better friend.

I don't actually think that "men are disgusting;" I was just not feeling very...comfortable being a man last night.

Hi Mama,

Snow Flower has had some "counseling" with her Ministers, and has been in a "support" group in her church.

Unfortunately, she got a lot of "counseling" to the effect that it is God's will that a woman submit to her husband, that "God hates divorce," and that the very most important thing was that she focus on "forgiving" him.

(Smoke pours out of WD's ears.)

July 10, 2008
6:03 pm
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WD: I am so sorry about that. Fact is that Moses (dont quote me) set up reasons that divorce is ok. It was done because of how bad they were treating their women. God doesn't want abuse.. I know that in my heart.

Strangest day for me was when the pastor called and requested a conference w/ me. I was like "oh stuffins". When I got there he asked me to sit down and said he had some important things to tell me. He pointed out to me in the Bible where it is ok to leave your husband under certain circumstances. Yes, God does hate divorce, but he hates his folks bein beaten to death and sold too. Get your Bible out WD and look thru the concordance or study guide. Call another pastor and ask him or her. My pastor told me not to worry about my divorce bein a sin coz he had gone against how God said to treat a wife.

I'll look if I can feel up to it. Came down w/ the bad crud last night.

July 10, 2008
7:37 pm
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WD,

Does she know that you know this information about her? Was this information obtained legally ?
Did you have access to an online websight that you really should not have gone to?

Because what you did creeps me out. You sound like you are a emotionally stalking her by searching for the deeply personal things about her online. How is she gonna trust you if she finds out you were looking up things she wasnt ready to tell you?

Dont be an online stalker. Let her tell her story when shes darn well ready. Its her story to tell, not yours so dont be looking up stuff that you have no business knowing about. To many woman what you did feels like rape.

July 11, 2008
11:59 pm
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Hi thewall,

Your post reminds me of several helpful principles.

1) We can never really know what a person is thinking. In other words, we can't read minds, and it is best to ask questions before jumping to conclusions.

2) All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the best explanation.

3) It is generally best to assume that people are well-intended—because most people are.

4) Do not make paranoia a way of life--keep it as a hobby. 🙂

When we use our imaginations to dream up elaborate explanations of why someone did something, especially when we don’t know the person very well, and our explanation involves complex models of the person’s psychology and ascribes bizarre and sinister motives to their behavior, we will most often be mistaken. Sometimes, we will be spectacularly mistaken. One common unfortunate result of that kind of error is that it can make it hard to get along with people. And it can lead to unnecessarily hurting people’s feelings.

As I have said before, my friend has already volunteered many details of her story to me--because we are friends, she trusts me, and appreciates my support.

As to how I came upon the information...

There is an internet search engine called "Google."

You can type in a word, or a phrase, or a name, and the engine produces a list of links to pages containing the text searched for.

The process of finding pages this way is popularly known as "Googling."

It is quite interesting to Google your own name. If you have any public presence at all, or even if your name matches a name in someone’s genealogy search, it is amazing how many references pop up. If you have ever been involved in civil or criminal litigation, then your name is part of the public record, and you will probably find some of it online. Which is just another good reason for the AAC anonymity rules, in my opinion. Also a good reason to be careful of what you say and how you identify yourself during online interactions.

Googling my name, for example, produces a list of 11,700 links in 0.38 seconds. My old best friend from high school located me that way recently, tracked me down by my list of published articles and photographs, and finally got an email address which allowed him to contact me and start up our friendship again. That was pretty cool.

People engage in the process of “Googling” for many reasons. I use it a lot for research—both professionally, and also for personal research. In scientific and political discussion forums, I have developed a reputation for being well-informed and well-reasoned, partly because I am able to quickly recover and present lots of information—quotes, articles, and statistical information , etc..

It is also quite common for people to Google their own name, or the names of their friends, family members, acquaintances, or celebrities—often just out of idle curiosity, to see how many links there are, how many degrees of separation there are, or just “for the heck of it.”.

Some people recommend that a person “Google” the name of anyone they are considering accepting a job from, hiring to fill a job position, renting a room to or from, considering dating, buying merchandise from on Ebay, getting psychotherapy from, or voting into public office. It can turn up interesting results, and can sometimes help prevent a lot of trouble.

For example,

“Dear Mr. Bates.

Norman, it was a pleasure speaking to you on the phone yesterday about the unit you have for lease above your bed and breakfast. Your hotel certainly meets my needs as far as being in a quiet, remote, peaceful location, the room is reasonably-priced, and your mother sounds like a wonderful person. However, after further consideration, I have decided to look for something closer to town.

Sincerely,

Marion Crane.”

Anyway, people in my field, who publish lots of articles, probably Google each other even more frequently than people in the general population. And I am basically a Google-holic anyway. “Inquiring minds want to Google.”

The other night, I Googled my friend’s name, and within 0.08 seconds, was looking at a list of links to 48,600 web pages. (She has lots of publications.)

At the top of the list was a link to a page published by the State of Washington Court of Appeals, —information that is freely available and part of the Public Record. And right under the link was an excerpt from the text of the court decision.

Like I said, I have very mixed feelings about having stumbled onto the information on that web page.

That being said, I don’t think that Googling someone’s name constitutes cyber-stalking, and it certainly doesn’t constitute “rape.”

July 12, 2008
3:18 am
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Well, if she went through a trial then before she testified it was explained to her that court records are public records. Anybody can obtain a written record of the court reporter's typings, for a fee, upon request. Been there done this one. And, much is online. It's all public record.

I'd recommend to everybody that they google the name of whomever they may be interested in. I recently discovered that my ex husband had been married three times before me, not once as he claimed. God bless google. People keep personal things private for many reasons, some noble, some not so noble. Some people are just private people, some are liars, some are just plain secretive.

I googled my husband's name once and discovered we owed are business taxes. forgot about those.

I google my children's names periodically. I want to know what's on the web about them. Kuz I love 'em and I'll kick some ass if anything bad comes up.

I love google.

And I love wd. In a cyber way of course.

I doubt he meant any harm thewall.

he stumbled across something during a curious moment.

And was hurt.

that's not a bad person.

A mean person.

A stalker person.

It's a compassionate person.

Just my thoughts.

free

July 12, 2008
4:02 am
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Hi Free,

Actually the document was really *about* some unfinished business between my friend's husband and the State of Washington. Her name just happened to be on it, because she was involved in the stuff that happened 2 1/2 years ago.

Googling "Free" yields a list of 4,550,000,000 in 0.14 seconds, btw.

That's four billion, 550 million pages.

Gee, you must be pretty infamous to have that many pages with your name on them!

Since I read a page a minute, with my mad cyber-stalking skills I should be able to track you down in about...well, if you are still around 50 million years after the Sun turns red giant, envelops the Earth, and starts to boil the sands of Mars...wanna have coffee, maybe grab some lunch?

July 12, 2008
1:39 pm
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Free: You go girl. lol. I use google to check on my kids too. It's a parent's responsibility to guide their kids in the way they should go and google is a good tool to use to ensure they are goin down the right path.

Oh, and take WD up on his offer for coffee and lunch. Bet you'll have a great time. 🙂

July 12, 2008
7:45 pm
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thewall
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Wd

Obviously googling is grossly misused and abused. You chose to google her in order to obtain information about her. I wonder how much she would trust you if she knew you purposely googled her for the reason of learning more about her. And then chose to read a court report about something she was not ready to fully disclose to you yet.

I truely do wonder if your behaviors would seem so harmless as what you make them out to be if she knew. Her past is her story to tell, when she wants to tell you. Googling her could be a deal breaker for her. I work with women who have been abused and your behaviors would destroy any ounce of trust that you have built, for many women. Some would head for the hills as far away from you as possible.
And yes, one of my clients did tell me it felt like rape when her love interest began seeking more info than what she was willing to give out at the time. Again, it is her story to tell, when shes ready to tell it, not you.

July 12, 2008
8:44 pm
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Well, simple solution to this one- never tell her ya googled her. Let her tell in her own time. That's just respect. Why WOULD one disclose that they googled somebody they cared about and found out personal stuff anyhow? I mean if somebody was interested in me and told me they googled me and found all this stuff out I'd be kinda- creeped out. Not because they found these things out, but because they told me about it. Does that make sense?

So...just keep it mums....and who knows, maybe she'll never tell you she googled YOU.

which I'd imagine is fine.

😉

July 12, 2008
9:10 pm
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WDad,

I understand your discomfort about this. It might be awkward to face her now, knowing those intimate details, her degradation, without her telling you and without her knowing that you have the information. I would want to express my sympathy, but how to do so without telling her?

If you think of it while you are with her and your emotion at what you read about her shows on your face, how will you explain that?

She might get angry if she finds out and now you must always be on guard.

To respect what privacy she has left, now there's this secret lying there. This changes everything, doesn't it?

July 12, 2008
11:52 pm
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Hi thewall,

Personally, I do not think it is possible to "abuse" Google, even in principle.

Oh there was one very interesting detail that turned up in the court documents that my boss hadn't bothered to share with me. That is that the man had showed up to my workplace and threatened one of my colleagues.

The more I think about it, the more annoyed I am that nobody bothered to share that little detail with me. And the more I think about it, the more I feel very very glad to have a better idea of how dangerous this guy is.

I don't have any deals with this woman for a "deal-breaker" to impact, and I don't think I ever will. She's a co-worker, for heaven's sake. I was just unwise to allow myself to develop feelings for her.

And sorry: Welcome to the 21st century. People Google each other here.

Hey, appreciate your support and compassion.

July 12, 2008
11:57 pm
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Hey Bevdee,

Yeah I worried that it would be difficult to see her after reading the court document. But like I said, she has already shared quite a bit of information. I was mainly shocked at the level of violence, the use of weapons, and the endangerment of other people.

I'm pretty good at acting professionally even when I have strong feelings.

Heck, my lab is adjacent to the lab managed by a doctor who happens to be also be a leader of the cult that basically wrecked my life. We get along well professionally. I don't think he has any idea just how much I hate his guts.

July 13, 2008
4:05 am
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my lab is adjacent to the lab managed by a doctor who happens to be also be a leader of the cult that basically wrecked my life.

Hey, that reminds me - whatever happened to the book you were writing about cults, WD?

July 13, 2008
6:31 am
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What happened to Snow Flower is terrible but no way am i going to be sidetracked by that because comming to AAC is about you!

She just isn't giving it up to you yet is she WD?You really needed to know why?
I, as a person who was abused and had a pretty horrible time in court with my x, would hope it all stayed in the past, in a sealed vault.If I knew a man who was interested in me sought out this information I would be incensed and fearful of his character..his ability to abuse me emotionally or physically. NO frikken DEAL MAN!

The only time I would ever consider checking someones personal papers, in the legal arena, would be if they were going to become a part of my life and I had suspicians about their character.Concern for my safety.
I mean suspicians about any questionable or violent tendencies.

You can reason that knowing about her X's ability to harm someone who gets close was the reason but we all know this isn't true!
She probably told you he was dangerous and we all know, YOU are intelligent enough to know HE is dangerous, But he is in JAIL! It comes with the territory ( abusive people) and the scenarios can play out in your head.

Court documents for non-celebrities don't get transferred to the web unless they have been used in press publications or used in some kind of web research. You have to go to the courthouse and request a specific file to see it, once you find out who the parties are ( name searches on Google)

WD...I take it you have been secretly desiring this co-worker (past posts)for some time and wanted to gain insight into her situation so you could further maneuver yourself..insinuate yourself into her life?

This stuff is private to her and she has every right to keep it to herself.

She already shared some details. Isn't that enough?It is up to her to share the painfull things in her life. Where is the respect here?Giving her space with this deeply disturbing past, perhaps saying "if you ever need to confide in me then i am available",leaving it at that would of given her some power back.The abuse she suffered takes all a persons power away. What you have done, if she found out, would make her feel threatened and invaded...maybe not as bad as before but nontheless it shows deep control issues on your part.

You come here and disguise it as pure compassion....well it's more than that!

She so needs to be left alone about this, especially by a man!

But NO, your desire for her is so deep , and so far unreciprocated by her in a romantic way, you decided to step way over a boundry here.

If I were her and found out you knew this info ( It isn't like you have access to court files or have a vocation that puts this info close by) went out of your way to invade my privacy like this , especially when it comes to my being abused in a such a horrible way...I would reject you totally. That would be the end of our "friendship"..........I'ld treat you like you treat this fellow colleague who runs a cult.
Strickly professional.

It's sneeky, manipulative and somewhat obsessive.
What is it in you that makes you reason that what you did is ok?
I suppose you can reason away anything!

You wrote:"I don't have any deals with this woman for a "deal-breaker" to impact, and I don't think I ever will. She's a co-worker, for heaven's sake. I was just unwise to allow myself to develop feelings for her. "

Co-worker yes, but you deeply desire her and was desperately searching for a way IN!

So you now think of withdrawing your efforts?

Good for her!

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