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This is my "safe place....."
April 12, 2007
7:53 pm
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bevdee
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Mich

Here are the conflicting beliefs that I struggle with.

The belief that my mother instilled in me that I was not worth loving.

A belief that I perpetuated by choosing emotionally unavailable people to love- that, by their behaviour and treatment of me reinforced this belief.

I got rid of those kind of people outside my family, but I still held the belief because no matter what I did- placating, pleasing, or punishing her by my silence and /or my absence - she did not change. Yet, I kept this unacknowledged hope that someday I would prove my worth to her, whether it was by my presence or by my absence.

The conflict within myself because I don't really believe it. It is wrong, but it is ingrained, and it causes turmoil. And pain.

Mich I will tell you a despicable, contemptuous, horrible thing about myself. And my little girl's wish to have my mommy. I was secretly pleased- not with the addiction, but that my sister's addiction made her unavailable to my mother. I was glad she was *fucking up* in my mother’s eyes. After a three year silence, between us, my mother called me every day to worry and talk about Sissy, and since she *needed* me, she played the game. I played it too. She asked questions about ME. She let me finish, although I doubt she remembers any of it. Because I still find this despicable in myself, I have trouble typing this out. I have denied this feeling of mine for so long, it is difficult to acknowledge it.

I remember one night the C-man stood me up and I sat home all prettied up and just cried. I remember having the thought- "Why can’t anyone love me? Why am I so unlovable?" Then I started ticking off the reasons that I was. I know them all, because she has always told me. See, I never could say, "he's a jerk" Or "it's him" I always internalised it. It was my fault.

Now part of what is going on with me in my journey with the Niceman is this. I couldn't trust him because he is nice, and he really likes me. I mean WTF is up widdat? But this is how I was a couple of years ago. That is the belief that my mother instilled in me (that I'm not worth loving) at war with the little seed of a belief that I have (that I amworth loving). So he is different than the folks I have previously chosen to place the responsibility of making me feel loved in. I can't play games with him, and I only know this from watching his responses to situations and some of his reactions to my anger - it doesn't frighten him.

It was much more comfortable where I was - believing I was unlovable, and just venturing out when my nature demanded it. (I'm much better at sex than true intimacy) It has been difficult for me not to push him away, I have been inclined to, because he does not reinforce the belief that I am unlovable. C-man did, and I obsessed about him the way I did about my mother. I told myself that I was unlovable. I told myself that I can never share my true self, and the truth about my past with him, because he would be horrified. I mean he was married to one woman for 23 years and I have been with several men, and feel fortunate to have only contracted herpes in my adventures. I told myself all the reasons I wasn't good enough for a happy nice guy- I'm not thin enough, I'm getting old, I'm tired so much of the time. That I am a creepy sister-hater, was a cudinf**ker, my mother's family is sick, I'm a freaky sexchick, I didn't make as much money as he did, I was living with a couple and the husband was a pedophile, and I couldn't afford to move, I still loved the C-man... and that I just wasn't good enough for him. I'm so glad he did not perceive me the way I did.

But my fears were not entirely about those reasons. My fears were that I knew if I moved forward in this relationship, I would have to change. I was throwing up those reasons to avoid the painful growth that would take place in me. I am doing it real real slow.

Eventually, I found out he has a brother who is addicted to drugs and in prison. I also just found out his mother is a drama queen, and he left her home when he was 17, and he can't stand to visit her, and so rarely does. His ex-wife was a drama queen, too. Look what we do.

I have talked to him first about the money situation and the situation where I lived. He kept calling. I have told him about my mom, my sister, and my freakiness. I talked to him about the molestation, and explained to him that I started therapy. When I talk about my feelings, he listens - he doesn't shut me down or change the subject, and that really scares me. It's so alien to be sharing my feelings and have eyes looking at mine.

Do you have trouble with that? I noticed myself staring at the floor the other day at the therapist.

I have been in turmoil you are in. Because before you can move forward you have to let go of the belief that your mother is right. Cause she ain't right. Because you know that you are worth loving. There are a lot of people that could reinforce that for you if you were to let them. You are one of those people, too. You know you want to.

We have both made the mistake of thinking these women were normal in the way the withheld their love from us- and the way they made us try to earn it. The way they hold it at the end of our nose like a doggy treat and make us jump for it. We have both placed our self-worth in external sources, because we were not taught otherwise.

You said something once about your mom taunting you with the fact that you came back to that house when you were 16. You know- if that conversation ever comes up again, please remember that at 16, you were not an adult, and you needed a mother. I can't tell you how many times I have gone back to being emotionally abused by my mother, no matter how crushing the last betrayal was. You needed a mom, but the tragedy is that there wasn't one at your mother’s house.

Now the analogy- I see you standing near the top of a spiral staircase, holding a baby on your hip. You have gotten up those stairs very slowly, sometimes one step at a time, and sometimes two at a time. There have been times that you dropped back down those steps because something pulled you back down, but you keep taking the steps to get to the top. We both know what's at the bottom of the stairs, but I can't wait for you to tell me what's at the top.

(((Mich)))

April 12, 2007
9:25 pm
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Shaney
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Thank you for answering the question, Mich. It's not what I expected, but I'm very glad that you shared. I know that those memories, although special, bring about pain as well. I know that I'm partly responsible for that pain, and I'm truly sorry - from the bottom of my heart. I know that I'll never make the mistake of using that sort of sarcasm to get my point across again, because of you and the ladies that were a part of that thread. Again, my heartfelt apologies. I hope that you and the others will forgive me. I am, however, glad that we've come to meet at this circle - this full circle as it seems - because I cherish you and the insight and honesty that you give. It means a lot to come here and express myself, even if I don't make the sense that I expect from myself at times.

Thank you girls for always being you, and for creating a space that even the evil Shaney can feel comfortable in. :o)

April 12, 2007
9:37 pm
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ggfred4
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Shaney, I have been following mich's thread. I haven't said much because I do not have Mamadrama...I have a Baddydaddy. I am responding now because I have to tell you that you are in NO way evil and I hope you don't believe that. I have refused to deal with the whole afghan past, can't even get into those threads. I have been wanting to talk to bev about it for a long time, but have not ever had the nerve. I enjoy her friendship so much and don't want to screw it up by bringing up the past. When Mich brought it up today, it stirred my soul. It was the beginning of something very special for me. I am happy that we are all communicating now, maybe I just want to be understood better about the topic. This is not my thread, so I will step back and be quiet.

(((Shaney)))

April 12, 2007
9:38 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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SHANEY....YOU ARE NOT EVIL.

I did NOT say what I said to make you feel bad....at all. I was just being honest. I appreciate your apology...BUT, I did not expect it. I hope you know that. I learned a LOT from that experience...a LOT. The good and the bad. And I believe that a LOT of other people did as well. That was my truth...and to tell my truth is hard...and part of that being...I did not want to hurt, and I did not want to hurt anyone else. It was a special place for me, and for others. Now, I grew from that, and I expect that others did as well. I am guessing by your response to me that you did as well. It was a growing experience...!! I learned that I could trust, that I could love, and that I was able to do a lot of things, and feel a lot of things that I never thought that I could do. PLEASE KNOW IN YOUR HEART....I HOLD NO HARD FEELINGS. NONE AT ALL.

I love ya girl.

Bev, You talked about something in your post that I have thought about ALL afternoon...I will post to you in a bit. If you have to go to bed...I will get it out there anyway.

(((Bev & Shaney)))

April 12, 2007
9:48 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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gg,

This thread is open to ALL. Please..if you feel the need to talk...do so. You are not going to hurt anyone. Our truths are what has brought us together. That includes ALL of us....Bev, Shaney, The sisters, Lolli, Alycia, and whoever...ok? We learn...we hurt...we grow....we love....it is all a cycle gg. It didn't destroy us. Our love is still there. We are all still VERY real to each other. Now there are just more of us...without a title. I love you. I always will. You will always be VERY special to me.

Mich

(((gg)))

April 12, 2007
10:09 pm
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Shaney
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gg - I've always thought a lot of you, even through the whole afghan situation. And although I don't know you all personally, I feel that I know your hearts, at least what you've shown to me - and I know in my own heart, that you harbor no hard feelings. I just wanted to make it known that I realize the pain from that situation, and I respect it, even more now. Thank you gg, for your kindness - it's always consistant. That's true integrity in my book, and I appreciate you.

Hey there Mich - I've been in the ring with you before and know first hand when you're going for my kidney (lol), so I know that what you were saying wasn't to provoke any sort of apology from me. I just have wanted to say something for a while... especially since you've allowed me into your thread. It's a vulnerability thing, and I wanted to express my vulnerability too... (not easy for me... but I actually do feel safe here). That's growth for me. Thanks again.

((gg))((mich))((bevdeeeeelicious))((cyndra))((need))((friendma)) hope i didn't miss anyone

April 12, 2007
10:22 pm
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Kan kousin kroiks have a hug too??

I've resurrected "the kitchen" on the support side and made a comment to you guys... hope you'll read.

kk

April 12, 2007
10:33 pm
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ggfred4
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(((Shaney))) I think you forgot the big sis...LL (Lovinglife)

Hey kousin,,,will read it...

April 12, 2007
10:43 pm
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Shaney
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KROIKS! I forgot the almighty Isis too...

(((ISIS)))(((LOVINGLIFE))))

{{{~*~$$..(KROIKS)..$$~*~}}} super money hugs for miss kroika.

April 12, 2007
10:52 pm
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bevdee
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Yeah!! What about that Isis? Where is she hiding her divine self?

April 12, 2007
11:00 pm
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{{{~*~$$..(KROIKS)..$$~*~}}} super money hugs for miss kroika.

....awwwww....blush..... thank you, Shaney! :o))

Really needing some hugs just now... and a super money hug -- that's nice :o)

(((**{{..(Shaney)..}}**))) back atcha!

April 12, 2007
11:18 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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Isis is afraid to talk to me after Michigan State took the National Title for HOCKEY.....

I love you Isis...it is ok to come back.

I love ya ALL. Thanks for making me feel safe..thanks for helping me GROW.

((((Shaney)))

(((Bev)))

(((gg)))

(((Cyn)))

(((LL)))

(((Need)))

(((kousin kroika)))

(((Isis)))

(((Mich)))

(((Friendma)))

(((all those that I left out)))

April 12, 2007
11:45 pm
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Shaney
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I'm going to sit with my h and watch tv for a bit. I have to get up at 5am tomorrow to get on the freeway.

I pick up my crappy car tomorrow and get to hand the guy my credit card so he can rack up $1500 on it. Oh well, what do you do?

We'll all be OKAY! love and hugs - Shaney

April 13, 2007
1:27 am
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ScaredinMichigan
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Bev,

"Because she is so not right and she lives with the guilt of being way past a horrible mother- she needs to make you feel like shit. You remind her of her failure. You are the constant reminder to her of her crimes against you. You are a hideous reminder to her, living proof of what a mother should be. Or can be. You are a slap in her face when she sees the kind of woman you have become in spite of her and her failure toward you. You are the kick in her crotch Michigan, because she lives with her guilt, and she knows that she can't take any credit for what you have done with your life. And she knows she doesn't have the same kind of strength and tenacity and beauty that your soul possesses." I want you to know that this made SO much sense to me and made me see things in a TOTALLY new light. I am not saying that I am "over it" by any stretch. It makes me sad that this makes sense to me...but it almost takes away some of the anger...for whatever that is worth.

I spent all day today thinking about my relationship with my h. Why do I feel the way I do? I tried all day to answer this question and this is what I came up with.....

I was determined as a small child that I was NOT going to live the life I had. I was NOT going to be in an abusive home for the years of my life that I could control. I swore up and down that I was going to marry Mr. Wonderful. And you know what Bev...I did. When I went looking for a man..I wasn't sure what I was looking for. All I knew was what I did NOT want in a relationship. I found it. I believed then that he was too good to be true. BUT...he wasn't. He has always been...the same man that I met, and wanted to marry, and the one that I KNEW would NOT leave me in a life of turmoil. My turmoil is NOT because of him...it is because of me. I am frustrated because he can't validate me. That is my biggest beef with him. SO WHAT....Is that really then end of the world for me? NO!! Can i live without his validation? Yes.....it is my mind saying NO I can't. He loves me, he cares about me, he provides for me...he is not abusive to me, he would bend over backwards and die for me. So what is so wrong with this in my eyes? He wants to see me happy and healthy. I am scared to move that direction. I believe in my heart that man loves me with his all. I have just never been willing to accept it. Not the way a normal, healthy woman would. Most women would just jump on it.

I, too, am very comfortable where I am. I know what I am going to feel like when I wake up in the morning. I KNOW what I am going to feel like when I close my eyes at night. I like that feeling. It is consistent. No...I don't know what it would feel like if I would allow myself to change...it could be HUGE. Sure I would like to know...but I am not sure that I want to face all the pain to get there. Staying here is painful...but it is normal to me now. This is NORMAL. But changing, now that could be traumatic. Then I face the unknown...I am fearful of that. Truly fearful of that.

Ughh...that is a start...it is 1:24 am here. I need to go to bed. I am exhausted. I will type more to you tomorrow.

Thanks for being you Bev. Thanks for caring, and thanks for listening.

Mich

(((Bev)))

April 13, 2007
8:38 am
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cyndra820
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Shaney,

HUSH!! People who know me well know what that means. In this case it means your apology was not necessary.

We all go through tiffs with friends and family. Okay, that was a minor bloodletting episode over the afghan. We all grew from it and learned from it. That's what this site is about, right?

I think you are a wonderful woman and I have enjoyed getting to know you in snippets of convesation. I've read just about all that you've written these past few months. Sorry about the car saga.

Take care,
Cyndra

(((((Shaney)))))

April 13, 2007
9:01 am
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bevdee
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Mandy- "So what is so wrong with this in my eyes? He wants to see me happy and healthy. I am scared to move that direction. I believe in my heart that man loves me with his all."

I know! I go thru the same thing, and I beleive it is because, for so long, I have reinforced the negative image of myself, and the niceman's perception of me doesn't mesh with that. It has been difficult for me not to automatically cast about in my mind to find fault with him.

Who else besides your mother reinforces your negative image?

April 13, 2007
9:13 am
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ScaredinMichigan
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Honestly Bev....Only me...ONLY ME. Truly..I don't even REALLY care what other people think of me. I have lived my life based on what she made me believe as a child...and I have continued to allow myself to believe that. I REINFORCE that I am a worthless person, mother, wife, friend...and all of who I am.

Everyone in my life tells me that I am a good wife, a good mother, a good friend. I guess I just can't see myself that way. I can't believe that everything that she ever said was a lie. She made me believe I was bad...I was wrong, I was a liar, I was seductive, I was deserving of every beating I got from her. I have always hated who I am. It makes me sick to type what I just have...but what good would it do to delete it...the feelings are still real, and they are still there.

Mich

April 13, 2007
10:05 am
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bevdee
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Mich

Girl- you know I gotta go to work!! Think about this today. Think about how jealous this insecure woman must have been. Her mental illness, her inability to protect you, her fear at losing that sorry piece of shit had she taken the correct steps and protected you. Think of all that fear combined and see how her fear turned to anger at you. It's wrong- it's so far past wrong, even I don't have the words for it.The anger should have been directed to him, but she was scared to lose him, so she had to vilify you.

She still does, because she can't handle the jealousy, and the guilt. She looks in your eyes, and she sees the truth.

Her remark to your little girl a couple of weeks ago? About all the trouble it caused us- boy she is hanging on so fucking tight to her lies, her self-justification, her fear-based need to be right.

Ok- I hate your mom.

Talk to you later.

April 13, 2007
11:00 am
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ScaredinMichigan
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Well, my husband just called. He asked if I was ok. He knew that I wasn't yesterday...and I didn't deny it. I just told him the truth...I am not really sure what all is wrong with me. I have struggling. I am hurting. I told him that I thought my mom might be the bigger part of that. The beliefs that I am living with about who I am, where I am, and who I can be. God...I just want to be and feel normal again. BUT...I think to do that..the need to understand why I am the way I am is the first thing I need to do. So, as I sit here trying to figure out what my problem is, I have spent months whining about the same things...BUT with every response things become a little clearer to me. However, it makes it hurt a little bit more. It brings about more anger, more jealousy, more fear, more resentment, more tears. I went for a couple of months there where I couldn't cry at all. Not even if I tried. BUT on RARE occasion. Something immediate really had to be bugging me. Now, I am back to crying ALL of the time. I hate this. My chest is still hurting..I do wonder..is it my gallbladder...or is my heart broken? Broken because of who I BELIEVE I AM, is it broken because of what I have always wanted that I will never have? Is it broken because of what I went through? What is causing this pain? Where did this pain come from? Why does it hurt so bad again? I get to this point, and I typically run and hide...I am SO tired of running. I want to get through it this time. I want to be better. I want things to change. I want my life to be different. I want to believe my husband when he tells me that I am beautiful. I want to believe the people that tell me that I am ok. I don't want her (my mom) to still have the control that she has on me. I want it to stop. I WANT TO LOVE ME. I want to let others love me. I WANT TO BE WHOLE. I want to see the happiness that I see in some people...I want to feel it for me. I want it to not be a face that I am putting on for anyone. I don't want that. I don't want to do that anymore. I want to be me. I want to sleep at night, I want to enjoy what I have. A loving husband, FOUR beautiful babies, some of the best friends that ANYONE could ask for.

In talking to a friend last night, we were having a VERY serious conversation about sexual abuse. In my story here, I posted about 3 people that sexually abused me...those were not the only 3. I didn't mention the other three because they weren't extensive, it seemed minimal. I believed that if I told all of it, that nobody would possibly believe me. That it would seem all to unreal. I wish that it had been. I have let myself make light of some of what happened to me because I told myself that it wasn't a big deal. I have told myself that if it wasn't major...it didn't affect me. But, if I made a big deal out of it..nobody would believe me anyway. I wasn't raped by any of those three. In fact, one...I was willing...but I am old enough to know now..that what happened was wrong. I was 12, and he was 17 or 18. The other two...the memories are faint...and that is the way that I like them. It wasn't tragic...it didn't leave me scarred for life. It was two other men that took advantage of me and where I was in life. Vulnerable, sick, and desperate for love. Does that make me wrong? I don't know. But that is my honesty. I asked myself for a long time, what am I doing to deserve this, what am I doing to ask for this. I was convinced that there had to be something that I was doing, I had to be "asking" for it if you will. I was NOT asking for it. I didn't deserve it...and I KNOW that I am not lying about it. It happened..I was there. I know the truth. She couldn't protect me from what she didn't know. But by that point in my life...I knew that she wouldn't. So why bother?

I just want to get all of my feelings out. I want it ALL out in the open. I want to not have all of this shit trapped in my head anymore. I want to be free from the imprisonment that I have found myself struggling to get out of. I WANT OUT. I want to getit all out. Sometimes when I think that I about have it all out...I think of more. Will this ever stop? That is my million dollar question.

H just said..."lets look a little more into moving Mandy. That is what you desperately want....and I want that for us. I want to do whatever might make this easier for you." He thinks I hung the moon. And he treats me as such....most of the time. Nobody is perfect. But I believe that his heart is in the right. I really do. That is what I want. I want to be where I can be warm, I can be 1200 miles from my mom, where I can spend some time outside....ALONE. I just want to get away. My entire past is here. Everywhere I turn, I see it. I want away from it. How can you overcome something that you are living in the middle of?

He asked me if i was having second thoughts about the adoption (which is final next Wednesday). I am NOT. I am not as excited as I wish that I was..but I am not sorry, nor am I having second thoughts. I know that it is the right thing to do. He said then, "You aren't looking for a lawyer are you?" I said no. I don't know. I don't know. One of my good friends is always saying...that is ok..I don't have to know. I don't. I just wish that sometimes that I did. I wish that some questions I could just answer. I wish that I could answer even what I want for dinner one night. Will it ever happen? Damned if I know.

All in all...I just want to be happy. I want to let it go. I want to find me, enjoy me, and love me. I want to be happy with who I am. But I have to figure out who that is first...cause I don't know anymore. I just don't know. Did I ever?

April 13, 2007
11:10 am
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ScaredinMichigan
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And Bev.....you are not alone in hating my mother ok? There are several people in my life..that hate that woman. For not only what she has done to me...but to others. It is ok to hate her. That doesn't bother me. Hearing someone else say it..makes me think about how wrong she could have been. Sometimes Bev, I hate her. I just wish that I could hate her MORE than I love her.

Besides....where we see each others pain...I think it is easy for us to say. Because thinking about your mother does not give me warm fuzzies either. I hate what she has done to you. You are a wonderful woman...a gifted woman, and a caring woman...you DO NOT deserve the pain that she has caused you. None of us do.

(((Bev)))

April 13, 2007
11:56 am
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(((Michy)))

I have to reply due to something you said about other minimal incidents that you have not told, afraid you would not believed, etc. This is true for me too. I have posted some things about what my dad to me and told what happened to me that horrific night when I babysat. I too have my "minimal" incidents and I am ready to share today. I withheld because I thought I would not believed and that with so many incidents that someone would think I was the cause of everything that happened to me. He are my additional incidents...

I used to babysit a lot for a family down
the street. My mom grew up with the mom. They had five
kids that I babysat. I did this for a couple of years.
I don't know how old I was, maybe 12 or 13, when I
babysat til one in the a.m. I had never babysat that
late. The couple went to a party and when they came
in, the father insisted on walking me home. I could
smell the liquor. He was a scotch drinker. I didn't
want him too, but I was very obedient. When we got
passed their house, he asked if his wife had paid me
and I said yes and he said he wanted to give me more
since I was such a good babysitter. I told him no
thank you. He grabbed my shoulders and forced a kiss
on me. I was so scared. He was drunk. I pulled away
and ran home, another secret.

Now I want to tell you about my brother who is 2 1/2
years older than me. One night, maybe 14 or 15 don't
remember, we were the only ones home. I was changing
in my bedroom...I had shutters at my front windows. I
heard a noise...I don't remember how, but I know from
an angle I could see my brother was looking in the
window and watching me...shit, this is hard...All of a sudden our eyes met and he knew I knew
what he was doing. I heard him leave and heard the
front door open. I ran and locked my bedroom door. He
hit my door hard and I thought he was going to break
it down, so I sat on the floor in front of it with my
back to it. He started saying weird things I did not
understand. He said, "I saw what you did". " I know
what you do."????? I didn't understand. Then he began
to threaten me. He said if I told on him, that I would
be made to regret it. Not to forget that. He kept
trying to get me to open the door, but I was scared.
He stayed there for awhile. Finally, he left. I sat at
the door for a long time, listening in case he came
back. That is all I remember. Now, all of these years
later, he will not look me in the eye. He avoids me.
We live in the same town and I have seen him ONCE in
the last year and that was at my parent's house.

I HATE ALL OF THIS!!!

April 13, 2007
12:04 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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(((gg))) I love you and I am holding you tught honey. You are SAFE. I know exactly what you are saying...and I believe you. I BELIEVE YOU. I hate all of this too. But it is there, and we need to get it out, and we need to do it where we are safe. We are safe here. I love you sweetie.

(((((((((((gg))))))))))))

April 13, 2007
12:57 pm
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ggfred4
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Mich, not feeling too safe right now...think I need to go hide for awhile...

April 13, 2007
1:00 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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You are safe here gg. Remember that ok? You are safe here. And I will keep holding you close until you feel safe. Love you sis.

(((gg)))

April 13, 2007
5:02 pm
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needtoheal
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GG-- I know that you feel as if you want to hide, but it is ok..you are safe here. I am glad that you were able to share all that you did share with us..
I also have a lot more that happened to me when I was young that I did not share on those afghan threads.
My molestation from a friend of my brother who was 7 years older than me, continued from about 2nd grade up until 12-13 years old. That is when he went off to college to study to be a chiropractor (which he currently is a practicing FAMILY chiropractor in the next town).. So this was not a one time incident that occurred. And I also have a hard time sharing since I felt as if I was not to be believed. It took an incident at my house with my best friend and this guy for my brother to see with his own eyes what occurred. I told my brother that now everyone can believe me that he had done these same things to me when I was young.(if anyone remembers my story, my father did see this man touch my crotch and did nothing. My mother had talked to this guy's father who said that I was lying..The betrayal of both parents!)

I know that it is so difficult for all of us to talk about this but I do know that this is a safe place and we can share here.

*NEED*

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