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This could be the biggest thing since sliced bread ...
May 5, 2006
2:16 am
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Anonymous
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I had an insight that I believe could revolutionize the world.

I was posting a lady who had just broken up with a bf who was absolutely rotten to her and who never put anything into the relationship. Yet this wonderful lady blamed herself for all the problems and desperately tried everything she could to please him and keep him around.

I wondered: Why would somebody so sweet love somebody who's so rotten?

Then it hit me: she had such feelings of love for this guy, not because he loved her (for he did not), but because SHE loved him so intently in her actions and put such energy into the relationship.

So, in other words: we feel love for those that we show love to, not necessarily for those who love us.

What if women chose to only love men who loved them back? What if they stopped trying to understand loser guys and focused only on how to recognize them so they could avoid them or disentangle themselves from them if need be?

What if women required men to show that they really loved them, before loving them back?

Couldn't this prevent a world of heartache for you women?

I know there are issues such as having to date somebody first to find out if they really are losers, etc. Let's put these issues aside for now.

Any thoughts on this?

Seeker

May 5, 2006
11:37 am
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garfield9547
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Seeker

(What if women chose to only love men who loved them back? What if they stopped trying to understand loser guys and focused only on how to recognize them so they could avoid them or disentangle themselves from them if need be? }

I think women choose men that love then. The problem is they see the reflection of there mothers.

Like Tez said, the 'template'
We are automatically drawn to the 'template that is ingraved in us.

I saw a article the other day on 'love at first sight' as being a BIG RED flag.

I wish I had a wand to make this wonderful fantasy of yours come true. SOOO much heart ache, emotional abuse ets would not take place if your idea could be put into place

Thanks for thinking about the women again, but tonight I also think of my husband and I do feel for all the men out there as well

May 5, 2006
12:54 pm
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Juanita
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Seeker,

Here's another thought.

In my own experience, I do NOT fall in love easily or lightly (remember this later on in this post). I am not attracted to a ton of men. Simple good looks do not do it for me. Rather, I am drawn to the man with whom I can have a certain level quality of communication with.

HOWEVER, in one such debate with a male friend, he asked why do women love so easily?

I believe there is a difference between being in love with someone, loving someone, and thinking you are in love with someone.

If you are IN LOVE with someone, it is deep & total.

If you are LOVING towards someone, you love them & accept they may not love you. You are not deep & total into that person yourself, but it is more than a deep like.

THINKING YOU ARE IN LOVE is when (I think) you have someone who cannot separate or compartmentalize aspects of what they love about a person from the whole person. You get prime examples of this all the time with teenagers.... "Oh my God, he's so cute... he's got great abs.... he's got blue eyes.... he drives a XYZ..... I Love Him!" These people THINK they are in love without knowing the whole picture. Perhaps this can be described as infatuation?

Anyway, yeah it would be nice if women would learn to only love the men that loved them ~ but what about those men out there who don't recognize how much we love them? Same boat.... why don't the men learn to recognize and love back the women who love them?

Love is blind my friend. Sorry to tell you that.

My heart is not a fickle one, yet it 'loves' two men differently. Could kick myself in the derriere for this, but yet warm feelings exude when I think loving thoughts of a certain man.

Perhaps it is an elixir for us women then? The love we give is medicinal to ourselves? We feel warm & loving inside ourselves, feel good in the giving? I know it is so, in part, for me.

I really want to clunk those men out there who don't know, or rather appreciate & love, the good & loving woman who is out there loving them.

May 5, 2006
1:14 pm
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Juanita

(THINKING YOU ARE IN LOVE is when (I think) you have someone who cannot separate or compartmentalize aspects of what they love about a person from the whole person}

Thinking of a person as a whole is just what I am busy with. Difficult for me. I am busy doing the father daughter thing in therapy.

I saw my father as a split person. The good and the bad. Unfortunately the therapist told me that we have to see a person as a whole, look at the whole and then talk about that.

I am trying now. Never saw my father in this light.

Garfield

May 5, 2006
2:00 pm
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Cici
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she had such feelings of love for this guy, not because he loved her (for he did not), but because SHE loved him so intently in her actions and put such energy into the relationship.

It's flawed logic. People love those who do not return their love because they do not understand how love is normally shown.

Usually because they were from backgrounds of abuse, or neglect.

May 5, 2006
8:03 pm
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free2choose
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I agree with CICI.

First off, you do not give someone love siply because they love you back. Thousands of people love ther people who do not love them back!

Love can be shared and mutual, or it can be one sided. That is just a fact.

The way that you explain it Seeker, is that our Feeling of Love is a byproduct of our Actions to the person we love. Well that is just backwards! OUR actions are byproducts of our feelings, which are byproducts of our thoughts! The action comes last, not the other way around.

Now, as to why a woman would put so much feeling and effort into a relatinship with a man who obviously does not respect of love her...well women do it all the time. And I believe this is the reason why...It is what they EXPECT from men. It is normal to them. It is all they feel they deserve. Or, they are getting some type of psycological need met by staying in a constant chaotic relationship where they remain the victim.

I am not saying that women consciously choose to be abused, but I am saying that for a woman to get into an abusive relationship where they allow themselves to be repeatedly hurt, disrepected and drug down, well something has to be "wrong" with her, some lack of self esteem, self worth, otherwise, the abusive behavior would not be tolerated.

I am not saying it is her fault, or she is a bad person or she is asking for it. PLEASE DO NOT THINK THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING!!!

I am saying that something in her was broken, more than likely by abuse, neglect, or hurt in her childhood, that taught her that that type of relationship, or that type of behavior was acceptabe and appropriate. Which it is NOT!

Get it??? Did I explain myself well enough?

Erica

May 5, 2006
9:43 pm
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readyforachange
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free...I totally understand what you are saying. You are talking about me. I don't take offense to it, and I don't think it makes me any less of a person because of it. I am learning, and healing, from my flawed relationships. At least I hope I am.

I did not learn what a relationship was as a child. My parents marriage was emotionless, empty, unfulfilled. They were my role models. I was the third daughter of 4, and never felt as "loved" as my sisters. The two older sisters were "gifted", thus they were superior to me and drew much attention and praise from my parents. I was average. When my youngest sister came along when I was 8 years old, I became somewhat of a "mom" to her. My mother checked out emotionally, most likely from my fathers' neglect of her, and his controlling, abusive treatment of her. So, I raised my younger sister, for all intents and purposes. That's my childhood.

As a teenager, I was awkward and unattractive. Braces, glasses, bad skin...the works. I didn't feel worthy of anyone's love or attention, and didn't receive any. The first person who showed me any attention was my ex-husband, who I met at the age of 17. Not knowing what love was, I interpreted his negative attention, possessiveness, and control as love.

Now I'm an adult, and I see how wrong my views of love are. I've worked long and hard to undo some of my past views about relationships. I haven't dated anyone since my divorce, and don't know if I'm ready for that. But I hope I know a little more about what love is, and have grown enough emotionally to handle a reciprocal relationship.

So, seeker...I understand your philosophy. I wish it were that simple for many of us. But unless you can change our thought processes, we will still continue to fall prey to bad relationships. We will interpret so many things as "love"...that we will continue to love someone who doesn't truly love us, simply because of our misinterpretation of what love is.

Am I making sense?

May 5, 2006
9:55 pm
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Cici and Erica,

So you're saying it's only unhealthy women who will continue to love somebody who does not love her back? Are you also saying that healthy women will stop loving somebody who doesn't love them back?

So I guess the real question is, why do there seem to be so many women who feel they are not worthy of being treated with respect by men? There must be a lot of emotional, physical, and sexual abuse of girls, indeed.

Erica, that's an interesting point about women expecting that men won't love them back as much. Does this apply to healthy men and women, too?

As for whether feelings of love come first, or actions of love come first, I think we're both right.

If you get a crush on somebody, and don't act on it, the crush goes away. If you act on it, the crush grows as you feed it, and hopefully morphs into genuine love with time.

Last fall, I made a disastrous, premature attempt at dating after emotionally divorcing my wife after a lengthy separation. I had a crush on this one girl, I dated her for a few weeks, put all my energy into the relationship, and bingo, my feelings of love shot through the roof. But she didn't feel the same way, as she didn't put as much into the relationship as I did.

Seeker

May 5, 2006
11:57 pm
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free2choose
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Seeker,

Well why do you think that she did not put as much into the relationship as you did??? Because the FEELING was not there!

You asked "So you're saying it's only unhealthy women who will continue to love somebody who does not love her back?"

2 things... 1) I do not want to make a blanket statement that ALL or ONLY unhealthy women are the type that would love someone who "Does not love them back." i do not like saying "All" or "Always" or stuff like that, because I can not prove "ALL" or "Always".

2) "Love someone who does not love them back"....I want to make a distinction between 1)having feelings for someone, having a crush, or being "In love" with someone who you are not in a relationship with, therefore they do not return your feelings, and 2)"Loving someone" in the confines of an abusive relationship whereby the other persons actions of abuse may make it seem as if they do not love back..... We need to be sure we are both talking about the last example, because that is where my brain is.

You said, "Are you also saying that healthy women will stop loving somebody who doesn't love them back?"

No. I am saying that 1) IMHO, a woman who allows herself to STAY in a relationship that is unhealthy and abusive is in that relationship because something in her is defective in that she can not distinguish real acts of love from unhealthy, innapropriate behavior. Like Ready said her husbands controling behavior felt like love at first...it felt like love because it was attention, it was "care", sometimes possesiveness feels like security.

2) A "healthy" woman (emotionally,psycologically) IMO, would not STAY if even get involved, in an abusive relationship. She would see the abuser for what he was, and leave, knowing she deserves better. Physical abuse is somewhat different, if you factor in fear of safety. Also, abusers at first are very charming, and very deceptive, suckering women in...BUT, a healthy woman would eventually see the truth, and be able to walk away.

May 6, 2006
12:07 am
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free2choose
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You said, "why do there seem to be so many women who feel they are not worthy of being treated with respect by men? There must be a lot of emotional, physical, and sexual abuse of girls, indeed."

Well that is a million dollar question.

Just look at how women are treated in society. Look at the Booty girls in the videos. Look at the million dollar porn industry, which objectifies women and reduces them to brainless sexual bimboes to be had like conquests.

Look at the double standards put on women...the Stud vs. the SLut. The inequality in pay, in esteem, in rights(not that long ago).

A young girl, with very little to look to as a positive, strong, healthy female role model will see the booty girls, the porn queens, the celebreties on the cover of magazines in their underwear and think..."OH, this is what I am here for..."

A young girl without an example of a loving caring family will not know what is normal, what is appropriate, what is healthy. She will either think that the abuse she grew up with is normal and inescapable, or mistake posession and agression as love because the cold loveless house she grew up in did not set a true example.

And Seek...the statistics...somethng like 1 in four or five are sexually abused by the age of 18. That is just what is reported. Think about the women on this site...how many say they were abused as a kid... how many admit to being raped...

And that is just the sexual abuse.

May 6, 2006
1:01 am
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seek-u are probably wrong on the girl u were posting to. she desperately wanted his love. so she constantly struggled to do or be what ever she could to get it. it is the want of love, acceptance and at the same time thinking u are unworthy of it to begin with that hold women in these abusive relationships. imho. girls who grow up in dysfunctional, abusive households, turn around and often marry dysfunctional, abusive men. if the warped way of thinking was never resolved in their childhood, then the woman continues the same story into adulthood. #1; u are attracted to what u know. #2-the little girl that was never good enough for daddy to love her becomes the woman still trying to rewrite the story where she finally earns the acceptance and love that wasn't there in childhood in a man that ultimately isn't going to give it to her either. this is the dance of dysfuntion.

statisticly speaking alot of women divorce alchoholic men and then turn around and marry another alchoholic. why? because she hasn't resolved the flawed way of thinking in HERSELF.

May 6, 2006
2:05 am
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free2choose
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Very good stuff, Guppy! Very good.

Free

May 6, 2006
8:18 am
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readyforachange
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See...it happens to me all the time. I'm invisible. I see my post there, I poured my whole heart out. No response. I don't know why I bother.

May 6, 2006
10:26 am
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ready- i am sorry u feel like u are being ignored. here is a hug for you

((((ready))))

no, u are not invisible.

May 6, 2006
10:29 am
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thank u erica. i thought the same about your posts. 🙂 smart girl there!!!!!!

May 6, 2006
10:40 am
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Seeker--there's a song line I really like that is "You are what you love, not what loves you back--that's why I'm here on your doorstep waiting for you to take me back"...

Only read the first post, in a hurry here, but wanted to share that because it made me think exactly of what you where talking about here. Hugs to all, EF

May 6, 2006
2:32 pm
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ready,

I am so sorry I ignored your post. I'm not always able to check the site very often, and I checked this thread and saw a flurry of other replies, and yours got lost in the shuffle. It didn't help I was trying to catch up on other threads and didn't have as much time available as I'd had liked. It wasn't intentional; I'm sorry. I sometimes feel ignored on these threads myself, and I can get very discouraged about it.

I think I see what you're saying. You were neglected emotionally, and ANY interest somebody might show in you would be preferable to none at all. I, too, was neglected as a kid and I feel this same way.

You said: {Not knowing what love was, I interpreted his negative attention, possessiveness, and control as love.}

Could it be that you also craved attention so much that you settled for his negative attention, seeing that everybody else ignored you?

I'm probably just saying things that are new to me but old hat to most of you on this site. Somehow we've got to get the word out to women, that they are worthy and deserving of true love. Too bad we don't have more grants and fundings for truly important things like this.

I'm glad you're working on recognizing true love, ready. You are certainly worthy of it. I find it sad that you have had to bear such a burden imposed on you by others (your parents). Suffering is a necessary part of life, but I don't wish it on anybody.

Seeker

May 6, 2006
3:42 pm
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readyforachange
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No big deal...life is a party to which I have never been invited. It's no different here. I've learned to accept it. Just another reminder to me that I am not a guest at the party, only allowed to look in from the outside. So be it.

May 6, 2006
4:54 pm
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readyforachange
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Realized it a long time ago. Just doesn't seem to matter. No matter what I do.

May 6, 2006
5:08 pm
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ready,

This site is indeed a party, and you're invited and are a welcome guest. But sometimes you have to knock on the door more than a few times before the rest of the partiers hear you over the din.

Does this make sense? Please don't get too discouraged. I've read other posts of yours and I've liked them.

The worst thing would be if you left just before the door opened.

Take care,
Seeker

May 6, 2006
8:07 pm
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free2choose
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Ready,

I did mention what you said in my response to Seeker. I said:

"No. I am saying that 1) IMHO, a woman who allows herself to STAY in a relationship that is unhealthy and abusive is in that relationship because something in her is defective in that she can not distinguish real acts of love from unhealthy, innapropriate behavior. Like Ready said her husbands controling behavior felt like love at first...it felt like love because it was attention, it was "care", sometimes possesiveness feels like security."

I am sorry that you feel you are being ignored, because you are not. You are contributiong to a group discussion and your contributions matter.

What is the deal you have with feeling ignored. It is obviously a HUGE issue for you. Do you feel invisible in your life? What is going on that you have to passive agressively attack us here for not imediately responding to you. I am sorry that you do not feel valuable to us, because you are to me! Maybe you should take a look at your motivation.

With sincere regards,
Erica

Free2Choose

May 6, 2006
8:25 pm
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hi ready, I agree with twinks, you are the captain of your ship, the life of your own party. I guess you might be having some down moments when you said you were being ignored. Ask me, I had the lowest moments today. I started to come up slightly now but my anxiety and hopelessness remains. In this state, I'm more likely to "succumb" to loneliness, etc. I hope you have better luck with self-love than me.

May 7, 2006
10:35 am
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Erica, guest, and twinks,

You have to admit, it can get discouraging to post on these threads and not have anybody reply. This has happened to me and continues to happen from time to time. I saw another thread yesterday in which nobody replied to Ready's post. Let's not be too hard on Ready, please?

She spoke up for herself by saying she felt ignored. That's a good way to start giving her own party, is it not?

Seeker

May 7, 2006
10:48 am
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REAdy,

I just saw your thread in Support and posted there for you. I am sorry you are hurting so bad right now. What can I offer to you, pleae let me know.

Sew

May 7, 2006
10:48 am
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REAdy,

I just saw your thread in Support and posted there for you. I am sorry you are hurting so bad right now. What can I offer to you, pleae let me know.

Sew

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