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The Worst President Ever?
February 26, 2007
8:32 pm
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on my way
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yes...it truly was rigged. Gore actually won that one. a whole 'nother can 'o worms!

February 28, 2007
2:38 am
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Free-

You don't seriously put W in the same class as Lincoln? If Lincoln was hated it may be for many reasons, I'm guessing one is that he drafted poor working people from the North- many of whom were probably racists and didn't care about "the end of slavery" or any of the other reasons behind the civil war. The North might be remembered on as more antislavery than the South (obviously), when Lincoln announced the Emancipation Proclaimation, factions became decidedly anti-abolistionist (?). Especially Irish Democrats who felt that freed slaves would come north and take their jobs. Did they hate Lincoln? Sure. Plus, I'm sure that any draft is a tough sell on even a devoted public. Poor people were drafted, and rich ones could buy their way out. Hmmm, come to think of it... I AM reminded of George Bush now!

The people hated Lincoln for quite different reasons than many hate Bush. We are questioning Bush's competency. I mean, aren't we questioning Bush's competency at this point? I don't know, in my eyes he doesn't do much that inspire confidence.

Also, Lincoln was dealing with a CIVIL WAR on OUR turf. IRAQ did NOT ATTACK US. If we have to stay there at all, it's only to clean up the mess that Bush started.

Some one please explain also the relationship between Bush Sr. and Hussain.

And are we all forgetting the ties between the Bushes and the Bin Ladin family?

Someone also explain to me why we didn't concentrate our troups in Afghanistan instead of Iraq at that time?

If history shows anything, it certainly won't have too many great things to say about Bush. Please tell me of his great acheivements. If I'm an old lady saying wow, the facts are out "and can you believe we were all wrong- Bush and Co. really DID save our country from those horrible Evil-doers who hated our freedom." Though I was under the impression it had more to do with our support for Israel and some other complexities rather than a simplistic hatred for "our freedom." I'll respect him if history proves me wrong. But the facts are pretty much in. They kind of screwed up. Big time. And a lot of good people died valiantly, yet under the leadership of a lousy commander and chief.

BTW, "Worst president ever" was not coined by Hillary. It is a popular sentiment in New York. Hate to say it but her lingo just isn't that hip.

There is a saying "No one died when Clinton lied." However, maybe if he didn't, people would have voted differently and the country would be in better hands today. So I think President Clinton was very irresponsible at the end to say the least, but I'd take 1/2 a Clinton to 10 Bushes any day.

-ella

February 28, 2007
7:35 am
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seekerw

On the 25-Feb-07 you mischieviously said:

"Tez,

I was making the point that maybe Bush isn't the worst president ever. So what I said about Clinton is relevant to this thread."

Arguing over your Clinton relevancy was not what you were doing when you were trying to entrap me in a silly way by asking the irrelevant question:

"So are you saying it's acceptable for the president to lie, to perjure himself in court, to destroy the reputations of innocent people, and to sell national secrets for political contributions as long as nobody gets shot in the process?"

I obviously was not saying that and you know it.

I steered you back onto the thread topic by saying:

"If you think about the title of this thread you will see (I hope) that it is about comparing the "evil men doest" and passing a value judgment upon same in estimating the actions which US president are the most evil."

Then you again either tried to put words in my mouth or to mischeiviously mislead other into thinking that I decried the right to take actions to defend oneself with appropriate levels of force. You did this when you said:

"It's acceptable to use violence to prevent violent people from harming you or others."

Again I will deflect your red herring.

Violence breeds violence is an indesputable truism. This is relevant in arguing that Bush is maybe the worst US President ever?

That has nothing to do with my deflecting a blow from an assailant and exerting just as much force as is necessary to restrain the aggressor. America stomped all over the Middle East either militarily or economically by CIA manipulation of vulnerable peoples. As a result, your Bush gets a comparative pin prick from Al Queda that was 9/11 and he retaliates with a comparative sledge hammer - undue force in a gigantic, but politically opportune over-reaction - in a futile war that can never be won!! Didn't Veitnam teach either you or your 'Dubya' anything? I suspect not.

One of the great lessons of history is that we never learn from history.

In Australian courts, if you use undue force(violence) by shooting an unarmed intruder who breaks into your home, you will be charged with a criminal offence. I know you yanks are gun happy and always have been, as far as I can judge. Bush exemplifies that 'wild west' mentality.

Now if I shoot my neighbour and go to court with the defence that I pre-empted an attack that I believed he was going to make on me, the courts would say: "mind your fingers" as they slammed the jail door on me.

Here we have your Bush taking so-called pre-emptive strikes against Saddam Hussein on the pretext that he was in league with Al Queda and because he had weapons of mass destruction. Neither were credible at the time and both have proven false since. Bush is either a bloody liar, or a mental defective. Either way he is a man who believes that violence and murder is the way to solve problems and bring people who don't toe the US line to heel - the very antithesis of Christ's teachings. Yet Bush calls himself a Christian!!!

I agree with WD when he said that Bush is a war criminal. I would add that John Howard is also an accessory before and after the fact and complicit by sending Australian troops in support of the whole Iraq fiasco.

Now Bush looks like plunging the whole middle east if not the world into a nuclear holocaust by taking on Iran. The very height of hypocrisy is for Bush who harbors a huge nuclear arsonel to dictate to Iran what nuclear facilities - not bombs - that it will or will not build.

Who the hell do you think Bush is - your God almighty or his right hand man to go pushing other small nations around who think differently to him???

The US is the bully boy on the block. Watch the violence breed more violence. The Death toll in Iraq every day proves that historical truism that violence only breeds more violence and never settles anything. The battle for the mind can never be won with violence.

The Japanese violent solution to the US embargo at Pearl harbor only resulted in its final destruction and humiliation coupled with horrific loss of life on both sides.

The 'War to end all wars'(WW1) was the womb that nurtured the embryo that led to the rise of Hitler.

When Hitler was finally destroyed with the whole of Germany in ruins Bertholt Brecht, the German Marxist playright, said:

"Do not rejoice in his defeat you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again."

And it bore many more horrific 'pups' as a result of its evil inseminations.

Violence breeds violence and any leader such as Bush who believes otherwise is either pure evil and is an anti-Christ or delusional. I believe Bush is the former and thus rates the worst of US president - at least in the 20th and 21st centuries.

China, the sleeping dragon, is awakening. Now 'bully boy' Bush might just get 'snotted' well and truly. You'd had better hope that the Chinese adhere to the belief that violence only begets more violence until someone calls 'enough is enough'.

You may not know that the British Army committed atrocities in India and seemingly got away with it for a while. Take a look at how Mahatma Gandhi threw the might of the British Empire out of India without firing a single shot and learn from it - mate!!!

Mahatma Gandhi is an exemplar for all national leaders. Yet he is hardly ever considered relevant today!

Watch how the Dalai Lama will eventually win over the minds of the Chinese nation and restore Tibet to a nation again without firing a shot! It will take time, maybe decades yet, but his peaceful 'retaliation' will not lead to the perpetuation of violence for centuries to come like US and other countries' wars do.

February 28, 2007
8:20 am
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Tez,
Very interesting points you make.

February 28, 2007
2:37 pm
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Tez,
Your post of 2-27 in the "If God's so good.."thread

"No - but if their belief in their God is a 'security blanket' or a 'lifeboat' and someone like you or I point out the total inadequacy of same, then fear drives them to aggression and irrationalities to shore up their damaged defences.

I always know when a Christian has a shaky hold on their beliefs by the anger they exhibit when challenged. Fear is their problem - existential fear. They white knuckle their religion for fear of being put in harm's way here and the hereafter."

If I substitute the word God for power and think white knuckle their religion (power). This is what happened in the US with Bush, but he has as intertwined it with patriotism. Patriotism and religion. Whenever I have tried to have a conversation about this- in my physical life, the answers I receive are to me unbelievably similar, ritualistic, simplistic. And so are some of the defensive arguments.

But I'm thinking of control and the way it is exerted and maintained. Mind control.

It's funny, I have always suspected religion was originally political, but now I see our politicians using religion and fear to help them maintain control over taxpayers.

And the thought is very frightening. Possibly too frightening for some to even consider, much less contemplate. There are those circuitous thoughts that may lead to others.

February 28, 2007
10:55 pm
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Tez,

{As a result, your Bush gets a comparative pin prick from Al Queda that was 9/11 and he retaliates with a comparative sledge hammer - undue force in a gigantic, but politically opportune over-reaction - in a futile war that can never be won!! }

Are you suggesting that the attack of 9/11 does not justify us trying to uproot the terrorists in the Middle East? What do you suggest we do, then, to prevent another 9/11 from happening? Since you seem to know how wrong Bush was to invade Iraq, perhaps you could enlighten us with a wiser course of action.

BTW, you label me as being "mischievious". How do you know if I am or not? It's a value judgment.

February 28, 2007
11:28 pm
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"Iraq must and will succeed."

Well, it has succeeded in making lots of money for Bush's friends--and that was the point.

The Iraqi people want us gone--we have destroyed their country.

Meanwhile, did you hear about the $8 billion that was supposed to be used for reconstruction in Iraq?

It appears that the president gave it to Al Qaeda for weapons and training so that they can help fight Hezbollah.

Isn't that special?

March 1, 2007
12:45 am
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seeker, Tez isn't even American.

He just loves to bash our President, no matter who it is.

yawn.

One of those.

free

March 1, 2007
1:24 am
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hi wd

exactly how much money did it make Bush's friends?

And exactly which friends?

free

March 1, 2007
1:30 am
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Hi Free,

Dick Cheney, for one. He was the top guy at a company called Halliburton.

What was that? About two billion dollars in no-bid contracts.

A no bid contract is where you don't ask who can do the job best or most economically--it is non-competitive.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....5356.shtml

http://www.commondreams.org/vi.....403-10.htm

March 1, 2007
1:38 am
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Dick Cheney was the former CEO of the Halliburton Co.

He was also, apparently the guy who came up with the idea of leaking the identity of CIA agent Valerie Plame in order to punish her husband who had revealed that the Bush administration knew damn well that Iraq had no WMD's and was no threat to anyone, but had lied about the WMDs in order to decieve the AMerican people into supporting a war for whose main purpose (beyond destroying the constitution of the USA and funding AL-Qaeda operations)) was to make certain rich people richer--oh, like Dick Cheney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton

March 1, 2007
8:34 pm
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free

On the 1-Mar-07 you said:

"seeker, Tez isn't even American.

He just loves to bash our President, no matter who it is."

I am an Australian who has a Prime Minister(Presidential equivalent) who like many of our past prime ministers is all the way up your president's fundamental orifice so far that I can barely see his feet.

We have been sucked into Vietnam by a past US president in that bloody, unjustifiable war and now into Iraq by your Mr. Bush. Every time the almighty dollar hiccups or a US company aquires another of our companies more jobs are lost and more dollars flow out of our country. No US dollars come in without many more being extractedby force of the might of the mighty US dollar.

As the old WW2 song says: "Drinking Rum and CocaCola, ... ... working for the yankee dollar."

Exploitation all the way.

Now if the above doesn't give me EVERY right to have my say about your president I certainly don't know what does.

What makes you think that citizenship of the United States of America is the only bestower of the right to criticize your bloody handed president??

I'm sure that every citizen of the world has the right to criticize any world leader who has been so destructive in the world!!

Stick that in your war pipe and smoke it!!!

March 1, 2007
9:23 pm
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seekerw

On the 28-Feb-07 you said:

"Are you suggesting that the attack of 9/11 does not justify us trying to uproot the terrorists in the Middle East? What do you suggest we do, then, to prevent another 9/11 from happening? Since you seem to know how wrong Bush was to invade Iraq, perhaps you could enlighten us with a wiser course of action."

Well open your eyes and your mind, bro.

Firstly had Bush been a person of the ilk of Mahatma Gandhi he certainly would not have done nothing. Neither would he have done what Bush has done. Immediately after 9/11 Bush had the sympathy, goodwill and respect of every nation on earth with only a few exceptions!!

The bullshit that he came forth with in justifying a war with Irag had nothing to do with 9/11. GOT THAT!!

Now the US is virtually isolated with the 'coalition of the willing' disintegrating rightfully. Why? Because of Bush's totally inappropriate mass violence based actions!!!

The battle for the minds of terrorists cannot be won by violence, neither can their good will be won by killing them. Every one that dies at the hands of Bush, many more converts to the cause will take the martyr's place. The hatred of the US will seeth and ferment for generations as it already has done.

I do not think the average US citizen is deserving of hate. But hate for them is what will be generated by wholesale slaughter by US soldiers and seeing one's country 'liberated' by turning it into a pile of rubble and generating a fearful situation in which the slaughtering innocent people becomes common place. Surely even you can see that!

The answer to 9/11 is and was fairly obvious. Initially, immediately after 9/11 Bush held the cards for uniting all nations of the world in a peaceful way in seeking and getting their complete cooperation in strangling the sourse of wealth underpinning Emsala Bin Laden and his war chest.

By setting up a top level and well funded inquiry into the underpinning socioeconomic factors that fuel the world's hatred of much of present US policy, Bush could have set about championing the cause of social justice and well being in the US as well as throughout the world. He could have bought further goodwill throughout the world.

Of course in doing the above, he would have alienated all the Neo-conservative powerbrokers and lightened the pockets of those pulling his strings as well as his own.

Do yourself a favor and buy yourself the 3 DVDs called The Power Of Nightmares Part I, II and III. Watch them very critically and carefully and then you might just see the cancer that is eating away at the heart of your country AND mine.

Mr. Howard, our prime minister, lied about so many things - the Tampa Affair, the 'Children Overboard Affair', the Refugee Imprisonment and Inhumane Treatment Affair, The Australian GST, on and on.

The Guanatnamo Bay prisonment without charges or trial for years of so-called terrorists against all the principles of the US Justice System is a war crime. Howard has left Mr. Hicks at the mercy of Bush without even a wimper. Even the yankee army major defending Hicks has publicly stated on Australian television that this is a terrible travesty of justice. No wonder Bush is so disliked.

One of Al Queda's greatest recruiting aids is George Bush and his war on Iraq. How Bin Laden must have rejoiced as the US army entered Iraq. I understand that unlike the present day, Al Queda didn't even have a foothold in Iraq when 9/11 happened.

I could write much more but I am talking to a close minded person who skips all my main points looking for something to misconstrue and twist to his own advantage - all in vain.

As an appendage you added:

"BTW, you label me as being "mischievious". How do you know if I am or not? It's a value judgment"

It's simple enough. Even you might be able to grasp it. You ignore powerful points in favor of my arguments, searching for anything written by me that might lend itself to being twisted around and distorted to mean a negative 'something else' other than what it was obviously intended to mean by context.

If this isn't intended to be "mischievious" by you then I have to opt for the other alternative of simple mindedness.

Perhaps WD can comment upon which he thinks you are in your dealings with him???

What do you think WD??

March 1, 2007
9:53 pm
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Hi Tez,

"Mischievous" is not a word that springs to mind when I think of SeekerW.

March 2, 2007
1:21 am
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Careful, Tez, don't injure yourself kicking and spitting on the floor. Deep breath. That's simple enough. Even you might be able to grasp it.

So stick that in your tantrum pipe and smoke it! 🙂 xoxo

free

March 2, 2007
1:34 am
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Mischevious. Does that word come to mind when you think of me wd?

No Way!

March 2, 2007
3:16 am
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Hi Free,

The word "spanking" comes to mind when I think of you.

March 2, 2007
10:45 am
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ah!

We went down that road once wd!

🙂

free

March 2, 2007
5:48 pm
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Worried_Dad

On the 2-Mar-07 you said:

"Hi Free,

The word "spanking" comes to mind when I think of you. "

This kind of talk is turning me on. 🙂

March 2, 2007
5:51 pm
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Worried_Dad

On the 1-Mar-07 you said:

"Hi Tez,

"Mischievous" is not a word that springs to mind when I think of SeekerW."

Please tell - what word does?

Now I am the one being "mischievous". 🙂

Whip me - I've been bad!

March 2, 2007
6:38 pm
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wd is sexy.

March 2, 2007
6:45 pm
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seeker is sweet.

March 2, 2007
6:47 pm
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Tez, I'm still mad at you, but when I'm done being all mad, a word to describe you can only be a good word.

right now, my word would be "booger"

free

March 3, 2007
8:37 pm
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free
2-Mar-07

"Tez, I'm still mad at you,"

Free I am secretly madly in love with you. I only write what I do to get your attention.

There - now I've outed myself.

Thanks for calling me a 'booger' - I know not what it means. But who cares, any attention from you is manna from heaven for my unrequited soul.

Sighhhhhhhhhhhh ... ... ...

March 3, 2007
8:43 pm
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Free.

PS I sincerely hope you are a shiela. I'm sure no poofter. So if you're a bloke then my response is yuk and my solicitations withdrawn pronto!!!

Holy whiteman!!

I think I just breached every guideline in the book.

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