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The way women are depicted in the bible...
December 2, 2008
8:44 pm
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on my way
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Do you all think we convinced Tez that this isn't a man bashing thread? 🙂

December 2, 2008
9:09 pm
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I don't think it's man bashing to discuss gender bias in the bible and how it has been handed down through the ages. And how that legacy has affected us today.

December 3, 2008
9:09 am
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Thanks everyone for your thought provoking replies and insights.

I appreciate each and every one.

I've peeked in on this thread over the time that I first started it and have chewed on ya'lls comments.

I especially have to agree with bevdee in the reply posted 12-02 - the part about David being 'kind of a peeper'

Exactly right!

Along these line, just the other day, I was thinking..."What If....."

What IF - Eve was 'created first' and Adam came from HER rib....and What If....his biting of the apple was not only because he was 'tempted' - but because he used no self control over the situation - no delayed gratification strategies?

Hmmmmm.

MsGuided, thank you for the skeptic thread. I have read some of it.....very interesting!!!!

Terriberry, with regard to your suggestion on 12-02 to 'pick up the bible and read it.'

I have tried.

BELIEVE ME, I have tried over the decades now to do just that. Even to the point of reading different variations of it like 'The Living Bible' as a young adult.

Afterall - I am thinking that maybe it is something that I am missing - as it is quite a popular book.

I have really tried to keep an open mind about it over the years.

But now, at the age of 48, I get the SAME reaction in my gut whenever I try to pick one up and read it as I did as a child....I just get this big pit in my stomach and the gut feeling that 'somethin just ain't right here......'

Like I said in my initial post, I do like to watch "The Potter's House" on TV with T D Jakes. His sermons related to his book on "Before You Do..." really makes me stop and think and he makes tons of sense to me in that regard.

However, the show that I mentioned in the first post, which started this thread, was one which made me contemplate the use and depiction of a woman in this particular sermon as 'whore' and 'slut.' - without any derrogatory name(s) for the men which participated in the same acts.

Everyone's response is sincerely appreciated in helping me to figure this one out!

Thank you.

tBt

December 3, 2008
12:54 pm
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I just had to giggle...'David a peeper'..so funny.

December 3, 2008
2:23 pm
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TBT,

I agree with you when you say, that you maybe missing something - as is quite a popular book.

If I may I suggest that Goggle "How to Read the Bible?" There are a whole bunch of reading plans available.
Sometime finding a good place to start is all you need.

There are several plans to choose one, find one that make you feel comfortable.

I will pray for you, as you start this journey.

God' Best to you.

December 3, 2008
3:27 pm
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truthBtold
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TB,

Thank you for what I feel/sense to be a very honest and sincere post from you.

As far as praying for me, shoot, I'll take some positive non-agenda energy being sent my way any day of the week.

(What can it hurt?)

But just know, that the fact remains that I STILL feel deep down that some of the stuff in the bible is just really, really whacked!

Just can't ignore my gut feelings in this regard.

Not anymore.

But DO keep sending the (what I assume to be....correct me if I'm wrong....NON-AGENDA nor somehow self-serving....looking for 'spiritual brownie points' prayers anyway) as it is sincerely and much appreciated from that aspect and intention.

tBt

December 3, 2008
3:48 pm
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MsGuided
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Tbt

Since you want the truth.all avenues must be walked ( or literature read) Right?

Whatcha think of this?

http://truthbeknown.com/

http://truthbeknown.com/religion.htm

Look up Acharya S or D.M. Murdoch

See and hear her in this video ( there are others)She's totally legit and credible.

http://video.google.com/videop.....6679691710

You can watch Suns of God, etc...

The proof is there. The logic is sound.
Pretty amazing.
I can see the Sun , Moon, and Stars. Track the movements of the stars and planets.

The ancients needed to undertstand the cycles of the universe,track the positions, juxtapositioned on the earth, to know when to plant, harvest, and follow migrations of animals (hunt).....Acharyas specialtiesy culminate into Astrotheology.

Lots to read and watch there. And Learn!

December 3, 2008
4:31 pm
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TbT
also...YW for the skeptics thread.

That isn't the end all of the info I've got on Xian doctrine, but it was the quickest route to clarifying the divisive and brutal nature of the bible.

I suspect you are open to all avenues in the study of theology: your search for the truth.

Again, staying within a single doctrine, searching for truth is just impossible.It's one dimensional, and that's what religious leaders want. Total abandon to their message, whether it's based on fact or NOT! ( i obviously think "not")

I'm sure what I posted above will inflame lots on this site. But I have never robbed, tortured, killed or marginalized anyone, unless I was threatened directly.

I just want to be left to my beliefs, like I leave others to there's.

I have a right to my beliefs, am sharing legitimate research, am happy more people share openly, or can question mainstream thought....there's no name calling here..or... DUHS!

Be Well!

December 3, 2008
4:41 pm
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TBT,

No adgenda, and no I am not looking for heavnely brownie points. Yes, I am just really being sincere.

Yes sometimes things in the bible can be confusing. That's why I encourge you to contuine to search for the answers, and keep an open mind, and ask God to guide. HE WILL. Maybe try the books Matthew or Mark to start with.

There once was a time when I didn't understand or believe too. But GOD has changed that for me. I hope he does the same for you.

TB

December 3, 2008
4:45 pm
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truthBtold
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MsGuided,

Your recent posts remind me of something I read in a book.

By Albert Einstein entitled: 'Ideas & Opinions.'

Short and sweet and here goes:

"Congratulations To A Critic"

Mein Weltbild, Amsterdam: Querido Verla, 1934.

"To see with one's own eyes, to feel and judge without succumbing to the suggestive power of the fashion of the day, to be able to express what one has seen and felt in trim sentence or even in a cunningly wrought word - is that not glorious? Is it not a proper subject for congratulation?"

Right on Albert.....right on!!!!

🙂

December 3, 2008
4:52 pm
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truthBtold
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TB,

Posts crossed.

I do thank you for what I feel to be a truly sincere response from you.

Let me ask you, would you be as pleased if say, I found some truth that really spoke to me and to my heart from a source other than the bible?

tBt

December 3, 2008
5:24 pm
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TBT,

To honsetly answer, no. As I see it is my belief that the Bible is the only book that is inspired word of GOD. I truely feel that you could being mis-lead as many people are.

Plain an simple, it your decision to accepted or rejected.

I encourge you to keep searching for answers... And I have one question for you. And I do not even want you to respond to on this thread. So that you don't I am trying to sway you on way or another but has it ever crossed your mind ?

That maybe just maybe ...
God could be trying to get your attention ?

Thanks for the discussion
TB

December 3, 2008
5:29 pm
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Gee, it's great to see everyone at least searching, and not having given up on at least exploring.

MSGUIDED...you may find this humorous, but you almost sound like a female counterpart of our famous Mr. Tez. 🙂

December 3, 2008
5:55 pm
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truthBtold
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TB,

See - that's where I have the problem. That some folks think that there is only one right and true answer - which of course, just happens to be the bible.

Bar none.

I just don't buy that.

I so appreciate your honesty, though.

I really do.

You know, this discussion reminds me of a another discussion I once had with a teacher from a Montessori (sp?) school.

You see, there was a question that she posed to a bunch of 5 and 6 year olds.

Truth be told.....the answers that she recieved from these youngsters were varied....but yet ALL valid - and she confided in me that it broke her heart to invalidate the 'wrong' answer....according to her lesson plan - when in reality - these children came up with some real different and validating answers.....only she had to mark them as 'wrong' because their particular ansers - though very valid - were not what her 'lesson plan' deemed as 'correct' and she felt like she was personally resposible for squelching their obvious intelligence and 'another way' of looking at things.

December 3, 2008
6:42 pm
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Tez?( i haven't seen his history here and don't really get the pun)..i love the guy....but Buddhism obviously ignores a huge aspect of existing on this planet.There are few flaws in the religion but one hits at my core.

As women, if we are healthy and able, part of our existence is to produce children. We don't all have to, but to those who do have kids, it is hugely rewarding.
The whole planet is sustained by reproduction.
I think his comments are totally absurd, selfish, avoidant: deeply flawed.

Does he deny his mother and human birth?

He is human, and not a god. Good thing he isn't a father!

Recently the Dalai Lama made some comments about sex:

>>Sexual pressure, sexual desire, actually I think is short period satisfaction and often, that leads to more complication," the Dalai Lama told reporters in a Lagos hotel, speaking in English without a translator.

He said conjugal life caused "too much ups and downs.

"Naturally as a human being ... some kind of desire for sex comes, but then you use human intelligence to make comprehension that those couples always full of trouble. And in some cases there is suicide, murder cases," the Dalai Lama said.

He said the "consolation" in celibacy is that although "we miss something, but at the same time, compare whole life, it's better, more independence, more freedom."

Considered a Buddhist Master exempt from the religion's wheel of death and reincarnation, the Dalai Lama waxed eloquent on the Buddhist credo of non-attachment.

"Too much attachment towards your children, towards your partner," was "one of the obstacle or hindrance of peace of mind," he said.< < ( ye, thanks guest, but I'm not going to tear down Tez's thread, and frankly, you're not very nice to me) What causes trouble with sex is our belief systems. Inbalanced perceptions of what life, gender roles, spirituality and our own place on this planet are! If the problems with sex and having children are there then we must be mislead indeed....by something? someone? As for attachment? It is necessary to be totally dedicated to our offspring. Any perversions that exist are due to beleifs. Again some get mislead. Children are relient so offering ourselves to our kids, nurturing, feeding, giving them comfort, love and sacrificing our selfish needs to benefit them! The parallels of attachment, parent child dynamic, all of the things a Monk or Buddhist Monestary expect from its followers, obedience, donations, adulation, love, peace, are what we share in the family unit.

Does this Buddhist representative miss the mark? Is he trying to make people focus on his god, like Xian leaders do?Does he wish us all to direct our attention and energies toward Buddhism, and not what brings true comfort and compelteness to our own lives?

All kinds of idiosyncrasies with the Dalai Lama and the Buddhist religion.

But I take the little gems that are useful, and try not to let it bother me.

Afterall, he is a celibate on a few levels. Too much mirror gazing.

I guess I'm "male bashing".But they started it!LOL

I could only imagine the uproar if the spritual roles where reversed.....for every He, replace it with a She.

It would be very "enlightening".

I think keeping the He's and She's even, with respect, freedom and power on both sides, would bring true balance back to our lives.

December 3, 2008
8:49 pm
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MsGuided

On the 3-Dec-08 you wrote:

"Does this Buddhist representative miss the mark? "

I think that you will find that the Dalai Lama was not talking about lay Buddhists in sexual relationships but about monks and nuns who take vows of celibacy.

The Buddhist monk and nun deliberately choose a life of simplicity and frugality. Celibacy enhances this simple life. I have been genuinely celibate for about 18 months when a Raj Yogi. I can speak with experience about it's gifts which far outweigh the costs of abstinence from sex. However seeing this point from the perspective of a sexually active is almost impossible. Buddhist monastics maximize their time spent in meditation and study and minimize their attachments to the world, including the Buddha's teachings. But Buddhists NEVER claim that the monastic way of life is generally superior to that of a lay person. It is simply their choice of lifestyles. There have been many enlightened masters emerge from amongst the Buddhist laity.

"Is he trying to make people focus on his god,...?"

What god????? Buddhists don't believe in the existence of a God!The Buddha was certainly no god. He was an enlightened teacher who is revered - not worshipped, or adored. That is a Christian thing with JC. Regretably, Tibetan Buddhists use the word "god" with a lower case 'g' to label human beings in a "higher realm" of existence. But these beings haven't any of the characteristics of the Christian God. They are not omnipotent, omniscient or altruistically loving. In fact Buddhists believe that because these devas(gods) burn up their good karma they eventually take birth in human bodies in this earthly realm again.

I see a lot of other misunderstandings of Buddhist philosophy in your post. But this response will have to suffice for now.

December 4, 2008
2:35 pm
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Tez...The Dalai Lama was talking about "lay people".

When i posted i saw the flaw in my post.

That I wrote Buddhism was flawed however it is the DL that is flawed.

Sure. I KNOW i am flawed. Looking for answers like most of us.

I went on with his quotes.
In my mind he is a human, and makes mistakes.
I personally don't think he is the best high representative for the Buddhist belief system.

He said:

"conjugal life caused too much ups and downs."

"Naturally as a human being ... some kind of desire for sex comes, but then you use human intelligence to make comprehension that those couples always full of trouble. And in some cases there is suicide, murder cases," the Dalai Lama said. "

He is a Monk and celibacy is a requirment.

I don't think it should be a requirement.

I don't agree with his view that sexual beings bring strife and pain into there lives by engaging in sex, or producing children. Especially his quote on children and parenting. He is referring to immoral conduct, sure, but some people do manage a respectful positive life within the realm of reproduction and sex.

You see it more in Tribal Communites ( which are almost destroyed now) than most of the world.

The context is there.

It is our immoral conduct that does this.Not the instinctual phsyical action of sex and reproduction.

It is outlined in the Buddhist teachings called "the Middle Path"

" "Sensuality is enervating; the self-indulgent man is a slave to his passions, and pleasure-seeking is degrading and vulgar. But to satisfy the necessities of life is not evil. To keep the body in good health is a duty, for otherwise we shall not be able to trim the lamp of wisdom, and keep our minds strong and clear. Water surrounds the lotus flower, but does not wet its petals. This is the middle path, O bhikkhus, that keeps aloof from both extremes."

The Buddhist belief system has rules of conduct regarding sex which are:
"Do not misuse sex. For monks and nuns, this means any departure from complete celibacy. For the laity, adultery is forbidden, along with any sexual harassment or exploitation, including that within marriage. The Buddha did not discuss consensual premarital sex within a committed relationship; Buddhist traditions differ on this. Most Buddhists, probably influenced by their local cultures, condemn same-sex sexual activity regardless of the nature of the relationship between the people involved."

from

http://www.religioustolerance......dhism1.htm

Buddhism teaches sexual restraint reflected in ;
Only having sex with consenting partners who are adult, not under the care of their parents, or relatives.
Commitment to a partner and not lusting after others.
The general belief is to avoid sexual misconduct.

I tried to find direct quotes but had trouble with that.

Maybe you can post a few. Put the Buddhist quotes up instead of pointing out the gaps in my posts.

I don't understand all of the Buddhist teachings. I don't use them literally, with the texts and philosophies, as my only guide.

However when i read Buddhism I find i do live by many of the basic principals..and am aware that's all they are: principals.

I don't think Buddhism has all the right answers but provides better ones than all the religions combined, except Native spirituality and paganism.( how many times do i have to write that?)

I'ld rather read direct Buddhist text, and take some of the wisdom the DL provides..not some priest/monk filter.

So i invite you to explore a little more outside of your own preference, since you are what? a Buddhist, Atheist, or Agnostic?

I explored a bit of Buddhism. Probably will continue.

Did you read or watch any of Acharya S's research on Astrotheology?

Sorry Tez.I always question authorty, or anyone who poses as an authorty figure, until i feel comfortable with it, and see there is no corruption or abuse there. Especially when it comes to religions.

December 4, 2008
5:51 pm
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TBT,

Well, I can stay I don't agree either with Montessori teacher's responses.

Invailing somebody because they have a vaild point that doesn't agree with yours is just not right. Having a dissusion as we are is what I feel is healthly to do.

I aslo just wanted to say, I felt the same way. I really wasn't sure I bought into the whole idea myself. There are things in the bible that I still struggle to understand. But I keep looking for answers, and keep asking questions.

I just want to say, look into a little more before you completly rule out the idea altogether. Talk to more people contuine to ask questions.

Thanks again for this open and direct converstation.
TB

December 4, 2008
9:41 pm
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MsGuided

On the 4-Dec-08 speaking about the present Dalai lama, you wrote:

"In my mind he is a human, and makes mistakes."

I'm sure that the Dalai Lama would be the first to agree with you. He is a very humble human being.

As for lay Buddhists having to be celibate, that is not what I was taught by the monks and nuns from the Chung Tian Temple at Priestdale Brisbane Qld. This is a Ch'an Buddhist temple.

Having had 32 years in monastic life, a Theravaden Buddhist monk, S Dhammika writes:

"The Third Precept says we should avoid sexual misconduct. What is Sexual misconduct?

If we use trickery, emotional blackmail or force to compel someone to have sex with us, then this is sexual misconduct. Adultery is also a form of sexual misconduct because when we marry we promise our spouse that we will be loyal to them. When we commit adultery we break that promise and betray that trust. Sex should be an expression of love and intimicy between two people and when it is it contributes to our mental and emotional well-being."/I>

And he also writes:

"The Third Precept:

Sexual behaviour (kama or methuna) is any actions motivated by erotic desire and usually involving the genital region. This includes all forms of coitus, intercrural sex, masturbation, sexual fondling and perhaps even voyeurism. The third of the five Precepts, the basic principles of Buddhist ethics, says that one should avoid sexual misconduct (kamesu micchacara). What would make a sexual (kama) behaviour (cara) wrong (miccha)?
Once, while addressing an audience of brahmans the Buddha said that intercourse with:

(1) girls under the guardianship of their parents (maturakkhita, piturakkhita), i.e. under-aged;

(2) protected by Dhamma (dhammarakkhita), nuns or those who have taken a vow of celibacy;

(3) married (sassamika);

(4) undergoing punishment, (saparidanda), i.e. prisoners; or those

(5) bedecked in garlands (malagunaparikkhitta), i.e. engaged to be married,

would be wrong (A.V,264). Because this discourse was addressed to men the Buddha spoke only of female sexual partners. Had he been addressing to women he would of course had spoken of male equivalents.

A child is unlikely to have the maturity or experience to make an informed decision concerning sex while having sex with 2, 3 and 5 would involve them in breaking a solemn vow or promise, i.e. lying. An incarcerated person can be cohered into doing something they really don’t wish to do and thus cannot make a genuinely free choice. It is clear from this that sex involving exploitation, dishonesty or cohersion or that is in any way non-concentual, would be breaking the third Precept. Although not mentioned here, using or threatening physical force (i.e. rape) to compel someone to have sex, and intercourse with an intoxicated or a mentally disabled person would also qualify as sexual misconduct. From the Buddhist perspective therefore, sex before marriage or during menstruation (forbidden in Hinduism and Islam), masturbation, homosexuality, with a person of a lower caste (forbidden in Hinduism) or sexual gluttony, while perhaps being inadvisable, socially unacceptable or not conducive to spiritual development, would not per ce be breaking the third Precept.
As in many societies, sex in ancient India was surrounded by numerous superstitions, restrictions and taboos. Brahmans believed that having intercourse when one's wife was pregnant would defile the foetus (atimilhaja) or when she was nursing make her milk impure and thereby defile the baby (asucipatipita). They taught that it was proper to have sex only to produce offspring and not for pleasure (kama), for sport (dava) or out of sensual delight (rati). They also believed that it was wrong for a couple to have sex during the wife's menstruation (utuni). The Buddha praised brahmans who followed such rules, not because he agreed with them, but because they were being true to what they preached (A.II,226). There are no examples of where he subscribed to any sexual superstitions or taught them to his disciples. Another widespread belief was that indulging in too much sex could cause cough (kasa), asthma (sasa), joint pain (daram) and lack of judgment (balaym, Ja,VI,295).

While accepting that sex is a normal part of lay life, the Buddha generally had a poor opinion of it. He dismissed it as ‘a village thing’ (gama dhamma, D.I,4); i.e. common, unsophisticated and worldly. He understood that a heightened desire for sensual pleasure (kamacchanda) causes physical and psychological restlessness and that this diverts one’s attention from spiritual aspirations and hinders meditation. He encouraged his more serious disciples to limit their sexual behaviour or to embrace celibacy (brahmacariya). Monks and nuns, of course, are required to be celibate. However, experience shows that taking a vow of celibacy when one is not ready for it can be anything but helpful. Constantly struggling against and denying sexual desire can create more problems than it solves and in fact can even be psychologically harmful."

For the reference see this Link.

December 4, 2008
10:04 pm
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MsGuided

Here is a great link to how the Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh sees sex from a Thai Ch'an Buddhist perspective.

December 4, 2008
10:09 pm
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Whoops! Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh is Vietnamese not Thai! Sorry Thich ...

December 4, 2008
11:14 pm
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TY Tez..now this is very useful, and I greatly appreciate you putting the time and effort to respond in this way.
I have some reading to do!

Be Well!

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