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The Pope Visits US - and most swoon
April 23, 2008
4:39 pm
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bevdee
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Sorry about all that bold - that seems like a little over emphasis!!

April 23, 2008
5:28 pm
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bevdee,

When I said that about belief systems I was primarily addressing jv63. But I agree with you, I'm sure it sounds at times that people disrespect your's as well, simply because you may not believe the same way. Haven't religious wars been started over this stuff? 🙂 I think yes, some people may be too fragile when it comes to belief systems. That belief system is an identity. Remember how combative I used to get...well, try not to remember too hard!! 🙂 So if belief systems are attacked then the person feels attacked. Are you responsible for that other person's reaction/response?...I guess only if you want to be. See the difference in those 2 words though? Reaction vs. Response. Almost as if 'reaction' is defensive and 'response' is more peaceful.

ok I have yammered to much probably..

April 23, 2008
5:34 pm
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jv63..

Wow. I think it comes down to being misunderstood....personally as well as believing that what one believes can help other people. When a belief is so strong and you have seen how it positively affects others, the desire for others to believe the same way takes over. I could be wrong. I remember awhile back feeling like I was misunderstood, because I felt like I was clumped with a group of Christians who were religious in nature and it made me so mad because to me no one can clump people together. Even Christians these days seem so diverse. This is a pretty deep subject to go into. I think I understand though. If you keep your eyes looking up, it is more difficult to fall for what is in front of you.

April 23, 2008
6:25 pm
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April 23, 2008
7:02 pm
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red blonde
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I didn't mean to upset you. All I am trying to say is that my beliefs and opinions are due to my experiences. I don't think any set religion no matter how old and archiac it is or how many rituals or trappings it has..should hold dominion over me. My beliefs about God are mine, if I want to believe that I have a 'personal' relationship with God or a 'personal' covenant with God..I do not have to have 'religion'. God has always walked with me...He didn't say I had to be a Catholic or a Methodist or a born again Christian or that I had to follow any of the dogmas or tenets of any religion in order for Him to hold me in the hollow of his hand to love me, help me and protect me.

If I wanted to go back to the Church to take Communion...would I be allowed to...If I didn't first go to Confession? And what if I had nothing to confess to warrant going to Confession? Wouldn't I be refused the Sacrements? I could go to any other church and receive them at certain times of the year. And I just recently talk to someone about going back to the Church...since now I am officially 'annulled' from my first husband.

April 23, 2008
7:26 pm
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red blonde
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Just a question...if you were the parent of child that had been molested by your trusted parish priest...would you still hold on to your belief in the Catholic Church and its practices? How would you feel when you discovered the long term psychological damage done to your own child?

April 23, 2008
9:35 pm
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Ok, it was me who riled up JV when I said that why the pope has to dress up and all that and why cant he just come in a jeans a t-shirt.

red blonde, jv's first response on this thread was directed to me.

jv, that answers why you're mad. I'll answer why I should be free to bash christianity. For one, it says I'll burn in hellfire and I have to be saved and stuff.

Anyway, thats all I had to say for this thread.

Even though I'm an atheist I personally respect the pope. he seems like a nice guy. Sure the priests have done wrongs on little boys and stuff but thats not the pope's fault. It wasnt in his control. I respect his choice to believe in Christianity like I respect your and OMW's choice to beleive in it. That doesnt mean that no one should 'bash' the religion. Criticism of religion is going to happen, thats free speech, whether you like it or not. And criticising a religion is not criticising you, for example, if we criticize Islam, we are not criticising a Muslim or implying that all muslims are bad. There's a different between criticisng a religion and criticising a person. The latter can be a personal attack, the former is free speech.

Anyway, yea, thats all I had to say about the pope. I have always wondered and oh yea - like you see in those mega churches hwy they have to put on a show and use the made up accents and stresses e.g. "Because the LORD willll SAaaaVE you" . blah blah. You know what I'm talking about.

If anything is true, you dont need to embelish it with anything. You just say it like you would talk to your friend, like a normal conversation..

Sure when someone makes a speech, they are different in speaking as compared to how they'd say it to a single person, but in churches the preacher goes overboard and over-dramatic to put a spell on the preaches and keep the hold of religion on them. If he was to just say it in a matter of fact way, it would become boring and the lack of any real quality content would be more obvious. This goes hand in hand with the "appearing holy" stuff.

If we can criticise Bush and the Clintons or Obama, we should be able to criticise the pope as well. Nothing wrong with that.

April 23, 2008
9:37 pm
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red blonde
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I think that what bothers me the most is the Church looking the other way when they had no answers or help that they could offer to stop the pain and suffering inflected on the parishoners of their own churches. If the Church could not allieviate the suffering of one soul who asked repeatedly for help...how can it possible allieviate the suffering of others in any other situation?

How do you convince someone to have faith and belief in a religion after that religion offered them no hope or relief or help and made that person feel insignificant as a part of the religion and then make them feel like an 'outcast' when that person didn't do anything 'wrong'?

April 23, 2008
9:40 pm
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various typos and stuff, oops:

"to put a spell on the people being preached"

April 23, 2008
9:47 pm
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red blonde, maybe for one, it wasnt happening in their area, Europe so they didnt feel it when it was happening in the US exactly like they would if it was happening in Europe where the pope lives and all the holiness is found.

Two, maybe they were hoping that if they didnt talk about it or acknowledge it, it would go unnoticed. Or they were hpoing that the whole thing would fade away.

I think its because the first- its because the abuse and stuff didnt happen where the church is centered. I dont know much about the abuse so i'm just suggested.

If core of the church is with the Pope yonder in Europe and the Vatican etc, then if something happens in the US, for them (Pope and company and command) its happening 'somewhere else'. .. ?

April 23, 2008
9:49 pm
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Or maybe they didnt beleive that this was actually happening until the thing got so big that it was imppossible to ignore it and by then they were shocked and didnt know how to respond to it so it took them some time, stuff like that.

April 23, 2008
10:46 pm
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red blonde
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guest_guest

You are probably right...Out of sight, out of mind. Perhaps it is not happening that much in the Vatican's own back yard..per se..or it is just more ignored there.

I don't believe that all priests are pedophiles nor Catholics are 'bad' - I just think that the Church should be more selective in who it allows to attend to its parishoners and should change when it comes to inherent Human Rights in the world today. (probably didn't say that right but I hope you get the gist of it)

Most people do not even realize that the Catholic Church owns quite a lot of prime real estate in the major cities in the USA, in Chicago's Loop and Millionaire's Mile, and I believe Manhattan Island also... just to name a few....And probably alot of prime real estate in all the major cities of the world plus in rural areas as well. I know this, because both sides of my family here and in Europe have always donated land to the Church for Churches and parish schools to be built as well as cemetaries - over the centuries. And that small poor parishes that weren't adding to their coffers were closed ...not because of a downward trend in attendance ... and this was happening a long time before the pedophilia became known.

Before what happened to me, I had always found comfort in the pomp and circumstance and rituals of the Catholic Church. Perhaps, I will now look into a nondenominational church or Lutheran or Methodist or Episcopal or whatever to satisfy any of my spiritual needs beyond my belief and faith in God.

April 23, 2008
11:10 pm
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bevdee
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Red,

I was confirmed in the Episcopal church when I was 15. I actually listened and asked questions at confirmation classes. I'm an aggravator from a long way back. :O I attended that church for 3 years, until I turned 18 and moved out of the house.

The Episcopal Church is very similar to the Roman Catholic Church in that for a person to become a member of the local parish, they must receive confirmation, first communion and baptism. Most parish priests are forbidden to perform the Sacrament of Marriage to anyone outside of the Church, or not members of the Episcopal Church. There are a few who are more liberal, and have more liberal Bishops over them who will allow it though.

The Episcopal Church does not worship Mary, or believe that the Pope is infallible, but there are other similarities in their overall style of worship, the ritual and some of the catechisms. There was no Purgatory or Limbo mentioned. Confession is part of the service, between the god and the individual - not confession to a priest. There wasn't alot of harping about penance or hell. Priests are allowed to marry. Some of the older ladies counted off rosaries, and wore those lacy mantillas, but that wasn't required.

It was very moderate. It appealed to my sense of history, the rituals that survived over time, but I hated the constant genuflecting and making that sign of the cross all the time. Other than that, it wasn't extreme. If you still want to attend a worship service, Anglican/Episcopal might appeal to your roots.

April 23, 2008
11:37 pm
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red blonde
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Bevdee-

Thanks for talking about that...I wasn't sure.... All I really know is the Catholic Church and the Methodist Church...I will check out the Episcopal Church. I believe my first love is Episcopal.

I am having a hard time deciding about going back to the Catholic Church...I have problems with going to confession. I just get the chills remembering how many times my xh and I went Mass and his going into confession...and then batter me until next week's Mass. Like confessing made it 'all right' for him to do it again and again and again. And then I would sometimes watch others whom I knew do that as well..and treat others like trash in between Masses and some of the other parishoners who made me 'feel' their hypocrisy..being so nice and you know 'spiritual' in church who were later found to have committed illegal acts. What if I 'felt' bad things about one of the priests? I wouldn't know how to react... Just alot of things I have to consider.

I really don't HAVE to go to a church of any religion, though. Perhaps I can just go and sit once in awhile after services or Mass...But, then, I can do that just as well by the ocean listening to the waves.

April 23, 2008
11:47 pm
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I confess that I have promised to myself that I will never confess anything.

April 24, 2008
12:14 am
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I wonder if the Nuns who lost their homes, as part of the settlement payed to plaintiffs relating to pedophile priests, are getting their homes back?
I haven't seen anything since and don't know if this deed was carried out ( eviction on December 31st!! 2007...Happy New year!)

POPE JOHN?? give the nuns their homes back! And while I'm asking, in your all loving generous position, perhaps give them a bigger better home(s)?

http://americanendeavor.blogsp.....-nuns.html

Apparently the $7.5 billion made by the Roman Catholic church yearly in the USA is never monitered or disclosed, but a large portion goes to Rome.

Here's an article on this subject for anyone interested.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f.....A9649C8B63

Guest_guest mentions the flaunting of wealth that turns people off religeon.

Here's another article about the church and wealth, from The Church and Wealth in America, Theodore Drieser:

http://www.infidels.org/librar.....erica.html

It's understandable that us pedestrians are kept out of the loop when it comes to church wealth but to see the church victimize their own? Then again : they're only feeble old women....who cares! ( that is the obvious message given from the diocese actions)
I mean these nuns in California have spent their whole lives serving the community, and because of the monstrous acts of their male colleagues are losing their homes!!

This is only an example. What else is going on? Numbers are dwindling in churches.

Meanwhile the priests keep their million dollar estates in a better part of town?

Personally I applauded Sinead O'Conners performance on SNL waaaaaaay back when. Look what happened to her for tearing up a picture!? Not much happens to pedophiles who tear the privates of children. SICK!

But the victims numbers grew ( in the 1000's) and the cases started being tried, and the victims finally won! Now the church has to pay over 600 million.

This isn't judging but REALITY.
Not a very good one IMO.Just a totally BAD example of Male posturing and power at the expense of women, children and true decency.

The world will never evolve and get beyond this kind of tyrany if the church, and it's Highest leader, aren't challenged and exposed! Until the church is forced to revela it's fiancial doings. Every other organization has to.

Religion is Big buisness so it should follow the same rules as any other business.

The Pope is a CEO here to gather momentum and support for the church because they are LOOSING money. A direct result of their mismanagement, abuses, and cases lost in court.
Yes.
Posturing in that pompous set of robes! How glorious!

I guess they just can't handle not getting $7.5 billion a year. Just can't let any of that go.

April 24, 2008
12:33 am
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red blonde
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And the US would have to have an army of 80 million to be as 'militarized' as the Vatican's Swiss Guard (army). I wonder how many people are aware of that fact.

April 24, 2008
12:50 am
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red blonde
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Just why and for what reason would the Vatican have an militarized army and in a country that has been traditionally neutral and that handles almost all of the world governments banking and monies?

April 24, 2008
1:08 am
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red blonde
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Which now brings up a question about my two second cousin priests who were imprisoned for trying to either 'liberate' a bomb or fissionable material....What in the world possessed them to try to do that? (And I am not really sure whether they were just brothers and not necessarily 'twins'...that was only my 'impression' when relatives were 'whispering' amongst themselves.) I wonder what I will find when I try to google them!

April 24, 2008
1:32 am
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red blonde
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WOW...didn't find them but found a Treaty that the HOLY SEE made with the International Atomic Energy Agency of June 1972...for the nonproliferation of nuclear weapons!
This is scary!

April 24, 2008
2:14 am
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jv63 we as Christians will always be persecuted, always have our faith challenged by the HATERS OF GOD.

2 Corinthians 12:7 "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

jv63, I pray for those that hate and persecute you. Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

April 24, 2008
2:43 am
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Hope Springs...

I hope you are not referring to me in any way...because that is DEFINITELY not the case.

Judge yourself and stop being judgemental of others.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

red

April 24, 2008
11:06 am
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I just want to set you strait on one thing. Christianity does not teach that the churh is going to cast you into helfire. some certain jackasses try to teach that. The real teaching is that people march into hell with thier haughty heads high and their chest puffed out. I have not left the church because there is a spiritual connection for all who want it. You say you have the right to bash, and that what makes you a hater.

April 24, 2008
11:17 am
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Ok ,

I have had my coffee now and that last post was really stupid. Guest i don't think your a hate monger. That goes for anybody else on this thread that i called bashers etc. I don't know what hell got into me. But I can asure you I will be doing some soul searching to sort this out. Thanks to you all for letting me vent and air this out and giving me a chance to grow in a safe environment. I may even post another thread to sort this out.

Love and peace to guest, bevdee, red, onmyway, hope, Msguided and truth.

April 24, 2008
12:10 pm
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jv63 -

I really don't believe that I was bashing Christianity or anyone in particular...I really don't believe I was bashing anyone's faith or belief in God or Jesus. I thought I was just criticizing some practices of the Catholic Church due to my experience with the Church and my EXTREMELY Roman Catholic relatives. As I said ...I was born a Catholic and was married as a Catholic and had been baptised a Catholic TWICE..and I suppose I can still be a Catholic ...since I have received an annulment by the Archdiose. I am just a bit put out by that...because when I went for an annulment, it was denied...my xh goes for an annulment over 30 years later...and it is granted? Does not seem fair to me when I wasn't the one who was in the wrong! And it wasn't fair of my relatives to treat me as an 'outcast'. Like I was no longer a member of the 'club' which seemed very 'good ole boys' to me at that time and started reading and realizing having blind faith in something other than my faith and belief in God, was maybe not a good thing to do...when I thought about going to another church of a different religion...Like going into a marriage with the blind faith that everything is going to work out.

I hope you can understand what I am trying to get across.

If the lay people and the clergy ignore what is going on with other lay people and its own clergy...this is cause for alarm for me. I just think that people should not take things at face value...and need to take the blinders off once in awhile.

If stating facts about the Catholic Church is being critical...well, I guess I am being critical of the Church and being judgemental of it...but it was of the Church...not anyone in particular...The only thing I said about the Pope was that I could care less if he wore the robes of a king or dressed in a t shirt and jeans.

I can honestly say that I have thought of God everyday and I believe that He has walked with me everyday of my life. And, yes, there have been times that I thought God hates me or plays cruel jokes on me...but I NEVER stopped believing in God. I am just not sure whether my concept of God is like anyone else's concept. Not that it matters.

Here I go again trying to explain myself and my life to people....when I don't really have to do that.

Love and peace to you, also, jv63. And to everyone else.

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