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Tez, on proving the existence of God logically ...
February 26, 2006
5:19 pm
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seekerw

On 26-Feb-06 you said:

"I didn't rely on any platitudes. I prayed, and God answered me. He comforted me and gave me insights."

Obviously your God plays favorites and therefore is not unconditionally loving!

Or perhaps He did answer my prayers of many, many years by giving me the insight that He just doesn't exist - at least not in the way the Christian scriptures model Him.

And you said:

"So I didn't have to seek other answers"

Wow! You have the answers that you want then?

Yes I can see that this is my answer as to how you reconcile the irreconcilable characteristics of your God and the predatory world He allegedly created;that is, you just don't try.

I think that the movie 'What the Bleep Do We Know' puts Christians and their God in perspective in a few short statements with great visual effects. Christian doctrine as we know it today is in my view as archaic as their image of the Christian God. Yet the Christian God were He to exist does nothing to correct what this movie portrays - strange that! In my opinion, the answer 'why' is simple - He just simply doesn't exist. Either that or he likes false prophets misleading humanity!

If you wonder why I am antagonistic towards Christians it is because I believe that Christians perpetuate an ancient 'scam' on needy, gullible human beings, many of whom are indoctrinated and 'socialized' into the Christian paradigm before they have the cognitive ability to make a choice or to even ask the right questions; all in the interests of the Christian power broking hierarchy. I'm not biased - I feel the same way about 'snake oil' salesmen and 'cancer cure' quacks. Few of the 'indoctrinated' break free easily - yet the numbers are on the increase.

And you said:

"... even though I am Seeker. LOL (the last part is a joke, though I fear it will get lost in the context)."

Not lost - just not punny.:-)

February 26, 2006
5:54 pm
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Tez,

{"... even though I am Seeker. LOL (the last part is a joke, though I fear it will get lost in the context)."

Not lost - just not punny.:-) }

Okay, call in the joke police then and arrest me for impersonating a comedian. :o)

Take care.

February 27, 2006
1:41 am
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Tez said-

"If you wonder why I am antagonistic towards Christians it is because I believe that Christians perpetuate an ancient 'scam' on needy, gullible human beings, many of whom are indoctrinated and 'socialized' into the Christian paradigm before they have the cognitive ability to make a choice or to even ask the right questions"

Well said, and totally right, from my experience!!

I was raised Catholic, baptised as a baby, all of the other sacraments, such as reconcilliation, communion and conformation was something I did because it is what was expected of me. I did not fully understand the meaning, despite going to cathechism(sp??) from grade school age. When I asked questions that the adults did not have an answer for, or just didn't like the possibility of answers, I was told, "Do not question God, only God knows why!" even so much so that it was a sin to ask questions.

I never knew what to do with my unanswered questions, nor my feelings that what they were teaching me was not the whole truth, if any of it was true at all. But because that was all I knew, I internallized my fear and anger at those people and at their God, and turned it against myself, growing to believe that something was wrong with me, that I must be bad or that God would not love me because I did not believe the way I should.

Add to that the sexual abuse I suffered and my subsequent addiction to masturbation (and my mother telling me it was a sin and having to confess the dirty sin to a male priest!!)at a very young age, and you get a very confused, very afraid, very angry and shamefull young girl.

My catholic/Christian upbringing served only to skewer my spirituality and to add shame and guilt and self hate to my already abused psyche.

Still, on top of all that, when I was 18 I realized that I was a lesbian. OMG...that was just the do all end all. God HATED me. My broken, fractured spirit disentigrated. I was left an empty hollow aching shell of a person.

It has taken me a long time to realize that God, if there is one that I am willing to believe in, does not hate me for my actions in childhood, nor for the fact that I am a lesbian. If there is a God, he is not at all the vengefull, hatefull, punishing, rigid, unaproachable, unresponsive male figure of my Catholic upbringing. No God that I would believe in would harbor ANY of those traits.

Yet where does that leave me???? Godless?? Floundering in a world where I fit in nowhere. Seeking, searching for the truth in a world of lies. What do I do with this yearning inside me, this longing for a connection of the spirit. It is so hard to blot out the lies of my childhood. To silence that childlike voice inside of me that tells me I am an abomination, I am not worthy. Because it was driven into me for so long it is part of my make up, part of who I am!!!

I did not ask for this!! It was forced upon me by well meaning, close minded hypocritical sheep. It is easy to follow blindly...until you hit a wall and the world comes crashing down around you. That "dark night of the soul" that Tez spoke about.

My dark night came a long time ago, and God never spoke to me. If he did, I'm still trying to figure out what the hell he said.

Erica

February 27, 2006
2:29 am
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Seeker, et al....

from your post 2/24 {I'll optimistically wait for another Christian with flawless logic to reconcile for me what appears to me to be irreconcilable}

I encourage you to not hold your breath waiting. You're more likely to see somebody fly like Superman to the sun, burrow right into its very center , and emerge alive and well. It simply can't be done. But I hope I'm wrong; I hope I am for your sake. Maybe I wasn't the right person to take this project on.

Hi (((( tez, kathy - my friends ))) πŸ™‚

I would never consider myself to be of flawless logic. I've not read the Case for Faith, but have read the Case for Christ which I'm sure being by the same author are along the same lines. So, I humbly say "read it again" you must have missed something.

Seeker.... yes, a big project you have taken on. And yes, in my opinion as long as there is more than 3 folks on this earth someone is gonna disagree. If not because they truly believe but to just disagree to be heard. Remember, this war is not of human to human but is of spirituality... good vs. evil. (not calling anyone evil here). So, yes, in my humble opinion.. until Jesus comes back there will always be debate. But, when he does come back I guess we'll see who wants to change their minds... or not. πŸ™‚

Just my humble opinion. πŸ™‚

February 27, 2006
2:19 pm
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Christianity is not a religion. Cahtolicism is a religion. Do not infer that I am saying Catholics are not Christians. Christianity does not name an organized religion. No wonder some of you are so fed up.

February 27, 2006
5:12 pm
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Tez,

I got another thought about reconciling the idea of a loving God with the existence of a predatory world. This involves the question of why God would let an innocent person fall prey to somebody who does them a terrible wrong.

Let's say for now that this God exists. He doesn't just let it happen and do nothing about it. He will call the predator into account in his own due time. The predator will have to answer for what they did, just as all of us will one day have to answer for all of our own actions.

In the meantime, if the victim will forgive the predator for what they did, the victim will free themself and open themself up to being healed by this God. Of course, the victim could also pursue legal remedies, if appropriate, to redress the wrongs they suffered. As the Bible says, all things work for the good to them who love the Lord.

Seeker

February 28, 2006
12:15 am
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MammaC~~

"If not because they truly believe but to just disagree to be heard. Remember, this war is not of human to human but is of spirituality... good vs. evil. (not calling anyone evil here). So, yes, in my humble opinion.. until Jesus comes back there will always be debate. But, when he does come back I guess we'll see who wants to change their minds... or not. :)" (Bold is mine)

WOW!!!! Good vs. evil, huh... And of course the hunmble Christian soldiers are on the side of good...so if it is so black and white, that must mean that all of us unbelievers are on the side of EVIL. Not that that is what you are saying though, right??? πŸ™‚ (That was a smirk!)

As for the sentence in bold about Jesus coming back... don't hold your breath waiting for that. To me that just sounds like all of the other abusive empty threats made in the name of Christianity used to beat people with shame and the fear of God into following the HERD!!

How unapologetically self-righteous.

Free

February 28, 2006
12:17 am
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whoops...just the line about Jesus' return from the quote was supposed to be bold

February 28, 2006
12:23 am
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on my way,

in my opinion, Christianity IS a religion of sorts. It is a belief system that acts as an umbrella with all of the named organized christ-following religions taking refuge in its shade. Wether you are catholic, baptist, episcopal, Church of Christ,whatever...nondenominational...they all still call themselves Christian. They all believe that their way is the only way, that they are the only enlightened souls on the planet, and that the bible is the word of God. It's a religion.

IMO,
Erica

February 28, 2006
12:46 am
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Free:

Self-righteous. Hmmm. Never been called that before. And NO I never said Christians are all good and non Christians are all bad. I believe quite to the contrary. I also think that the term Christian has been misused and abused, but in light of folks knowing to whom I am referring I use the term. I know some very good folks that are non Christian and some "so called Christians" that I would never let in my front door. I don't judge or accuse anyone. I simply made an observation IMHO and made it very clear I was not calling anyone evil therefore not judging. Not my place to do. So, if I offended I can say I'm sorry and I am. I wish no harm or ill feelings to anyone. But did I, or did you misread and jump because of who I am and not what I actually said? That said... I again apologize if you felt hurt by what I posted. I will not banter, so enough said.

Oh, and the comment about Jesus coming back.... is a true statement because if and when Jesus does come back then what will there be to debate over.

February 28, 2006
5:07 pm
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seekerw

On the 27-Feb-06 you said:

"He will call the predator into account in his own due time. The predator will have to answer for what they did, just as all of us will one day have to answer for all of our own actions."

Ahhhh ... now I get it, your God will call the lion into account for slaughtering the baby gazelle that he might eat.

Your God will call to account the Killer Whales who play with their alive baby seals before killing them and eating them.

Your God will call to account the wild ducks who forage for worms, the sparrow who farages for spiders and other insects.

Your God will call to account the crows who pick the eyes out of helpless ewes down in birthing and then repeat the process on the new born lambs so that they cannot see to get away from a slow horrible death. Ahhh I see, I get it now. Your God does really love the predated upon and will punish all those carnivors for doing what comes naturally. Will he also punish Bush, Bin Laden, Churchill all of whom are performing according to the conditioning purpetrated upon them by the matrix of the conditioning world in conjunction with the ignorance that pervades their own minds. Who is responsible for this ignorance? Your God thats who!

I do hope that you are a vegetarian, otherwise you are a predator by association in creating the demand for others to do your slaughtering for you.

Everything including plants are either predating upon something or being predated upon. Some trees even kill the grass around them to enhance their own supply of nutrients. Some vines even kill trees by predating upon their sap.

Who created a world in which predation is the sole means of sustenance for both predator and predated upon? Your Christian God???? And your bible spells out the nature of your God in horrific terms when your God supposedly dished out horrendous punishment for the trivial misdemeanor of eating an apple??? This same God then punishes the innocent descendents of Adam and Eve forever more by subjecting them to this predatory world in which they must struggle, suffer, and finally die in despair! Of course if they choose to grovel and suck up to him, the Christian God might just exempt them from the eternal fires of Hell at the day of final judgement, otherwise ... Huhhh!

It is the degree of development of our consciousness levels and our degree of sentience that govern the degree of our suffering. All of life involves suffering because and only because of the design of this universe. And you say your God is both unconditionally loving AND the creator of it all - including Satan the most evil of predators??????

If your God did exist then he and Satan are one. Why would God create a powerful enemy such as Satan? Such an idea is nonsensical. Why else would you beg your 'unconditionally' loving God not to lead you into temptation unless you knew that he was also doing the work of the devil??? Yet in the Lord's Prayer Christians have begged their God not to lead them into temptation for centuries!

I guess that the Book of Job shows what a capricious, uncaring God the Christian God really is.

The truth is that there is more truth in the preachings of witch doctors of the Amazon jungle and the shamans of primitive peoples than there is in Christian doctrine. It is all the mythology created by the ancient tribes of Israel and perpetuated by superstition ever since.

February 28, 2006
5:36 pm
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Free2choose.

I emphasize strongly with you.

You said:

"It has taken me a long time to realize that God, if there is one that I am willing to believe in, does not hate me for my actions in childhood, nor for the fact that I am a lesbian. If there is a God, he is not at all the vengefull, hatefull, punishing, rigid, unaproachable, unresponsive male figure of my Catholic upbringing. No God that I would believe in would harbor ANY of those traits.

Yet where does that leave me???? Godless?? Floundering in a world where I fit in nowhere."

If a God who created the universe, does truly exist, then He cut it adrift at the point of the Big Bang and has not been seen or heard of since except in the fantasy minds of primitive peoples desperately trying to seek 'salvation' from their lots in this life and the one supposedly to come.

I like what the Buddhists say. They say that we should worry about getting the arrow out of our body - not who made it. The Buddha did not teach that any God existed. In fact the Buddha taught the non-existence of the very 'soul' that Christians so fervently seek to 'save' from eternal damnation.

Where did the Buddha get his teachings from? He got them from the same place that he directs us to go to find out 'what is'. He teaches us to look within our own minds for the source of all that is. If there is a Source this is where and what it is to be found.

"The mind is its own place and in it we can create a hell of heaven or a heaven of hell"

If you read the experiences of Prof. John Wren Lewis, an athiest and a very 'spiritual' person, you will see his mind projecting his world "instant by instant" out of the 'Radiant Darness'. This is the Creator in the very act of Creation - there is no other! All is One, One All - no God, no Non-God, just the All in absense of any 'self-hood'!

March 1, 2006
2:29 am
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Tez....

I do not know what God it is that I believe in, but I am not sure I am so ready to believe that there is no God at all. I do believe in the soul, or the spirit. Maybe not in the context of some, and I certainly do not believe mine needs to be saved from anything except for maybe myself... But I can not not believe in the existence of the soul, which is to me our higher humanity. It is the compassion in us, the unity, the connection we all share to eachother and to the world around us.

However...it is that part of us that is so vulnerable, so innocent, it is often gravely wounded, destroyed sometimes before we are even out of the womb.

Most times, my soul is silent, alone, buried under my "suffering" (to use a word you seem to relate to). Yet sometimes, I can feel the stirrings deep within... when I hear a song that makes me cry it touches me so deeply. When I see a father holding his baby girl so protectively. When I can actually stop long enough to feel the wind blow softly against my skin, the sun shine warm on my eyelids, the smell of the water on the lake where I fish. There are times I can feel that something inside of me that is connected to everything and everyone around me.

It just gets so watered down and polluted by lies and heartbreak.

Maybe the soul is that piece of God in us all, the absolute truth of what we are, who we are, and who we can be. If that is so, then we are all a little right. There is a God, that God just happens to live inside of us all.

?????????????????????????????
Erica

March 1, 2006
11:22 am
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Tez,

{"He will call the predator into account in his own due time. The predator will have to answer for what they did, just as all of us will one day have to answer for all of our own actions."

Ahhhh ... now I get it, your God will call the lion into account for slaughtering the baby gazelle that he might eat.

Your God will call to account the Killer Whales who play with their alive baby seals before killing them and eating them.}

Actually, I was thinking more of human predators. Murderers, violent people, rapists, thieves, etc. Animals do what they were designed to do; people don't always. God will call us all into account for doing anything we weren't designed to do, such as preying on others.

As for the existence of Satan, God made Satan upright, just like he made all of us. But Satan choose to turn against God. Since God means to tempt and try us, he no doubt found it useful to let Satan run his course.

You mentioned Job. Also, the book of Job makes it clear that God does not allow Satan to do just anything he might want to do. God keeps Satan in check.

March 1, 2006
1:46 pm
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Free2choose

There are so much that i agree with you.

For me i see the Bible as a Spiritual book and happening in our daily life today.

For me Christ HAS come in my life. I do not believe in a God above Sun, Moon , and Stars that would someday come.

It says somewhere that when God comes ALL eyes will see him. BOY I am from AFRICA and thousands do not have TV. So this could not possible be a naturel coming for me.

God also said he is coming for the
sinful man. Although I go to church I do not see myslef as a 'christian"

I find it difficult to explain myself.

Please reply

Garfield

March 1, 2006
5:58 pm
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seekerw
1-Mar-06

Seeker.

You said:

"Actually, I was thinking more of human predators. Murderers, violent people, rapists, thieves, etc. Animals do what they were designed to do; people don't always."

So you discount the terrible suffering of animals? You don't recognize them as sentient beings? You think that humans are different to animals, more sentient perhaps? Or more able to control powerful emotions? Neuroscience tells us a very different story! Science tells us how very alike are our brain structures - largely differing only in size and shape not in structure. You think that because of our cognitive evolution we are somehow superior to animals? This allows us to predate upon them with your Gods blessing? This comes from Genesis - more Judeo-Christian mythology. What if your God has created aliens who are far superior intellectually and technologically than us and who want to set up an Alien's Butcher Shop full of human body parts for their consumption? Can they not rationalize away their horrendous predation in a similar fashion to you Christians? Watch out! Your God might have this test in store for you and yours! How do you think pigs would view your God? Yet pigs are highly intelligent far more so than the dogs that we love to have as pets! Science has proved that, yet we eat them with your God's approval supposedly.

"God will call us all into account for doing anything we weren't designed to do, such as preying on others."

We were 'designed' to prey on others just like any other animal.

Since time immemorial tribal wars have taken place. They still are - only the 'tribes' are bigger. Only our evolution has given us a very thin veneer that we call civilization. WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Afganhistan, Iraq on and on shows what we are really like and how quickly we can revert to type.

"As for the existence of Satan, God made Satan upright, just like he made all of us."

Fantasy!

And you said:

" But Satan choose to turn against God."

Why would He make that choice unless he was stupid? Assuming that you are right, who created Satan with the disposition to be so stupid as to so badly crap in his own nest? Obviously Satan is not omniscient. In fact he doesn't exist at all except in the minds of the religiously deluded.

"Since God means to tempt and try us, he no doubt found it useful to let Satan run his course."

Whattt???? This is an image of a sick God who already knows the results of his 'tests' yet goes ahead creating 'failures' who he knows in advance will burn in hell for all eternity. Yuk!! Not a loving God at all but a very sadistic one!

And:

" Also, the book of Job makes it clear that God does not allow Satan to do just anything he might want to do. God keeps Satan in check."

Ahhh! So your God keeps Satan in check when it suits him but releases him at other times to suit himself also. Thus your God is ultimately responsible for leading poor stupid humans into temptation. No wonder Christians beg Him not to do so in the Lord's prayer - but it makes no difference, your God doesn't listen and temptations still keep coming to match humanity's 'flawed' "design" characteristics. Hmmmm!! The Omnipotent, Omniscient 'Designer' must bear full responsibility for the deliberate 'flaws' in His design as well as any and all malfunctions caused by same. WW2 is your God's direct responsibility! What a horrendous unloving God!

Thus we have a God who sets us up to fail, punishes us if we do and then rewards the sychophants, hyprocritical ministers and self-seeking dogooders and fear driven self-righteous people.

Hmmmmm!!

Still the Christian God fails to meet his supposedly Self proclaimed attributes of Omniscience, Omnipotence and having an unconditionally loving nature.

If your God possessed these three attributes we would all have been created equal to Him in every aspect. Anything less arbitrates against the veracity of one or more of these three attributes.

In fact the Christian portrayal of their God is that of a 'needy being' who wants worship, adoration, love from us, who wants us to pass a test!!

What is the pass mark for this test? Let's say it is 50%. What if I get 49.99999%? Will I scrape through? If so, what about someone who gets 49.9998%? Will he be let through the pearly gates? Continue this reasoning and you will hit 0% as a pass mark unless your God draws a line somewhere. At that line those who are .000001% below that demarcation line will be very unjustly dealt with if they are dispatched to the everlasting fires of hell over such a small failure margin!!

This fantasy of a God testing us is obviously nonsense created long ago by primitive people. And you believe this fantasy tale inherited from the scriptures of Judaism?? Really???

March 1, 2006
9:04 pm
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Seeker, I just wanted to popin and tell you again (if I didnt already) that once God was my only friend and I would talk to him all the time. And now I'm an athiest (I do leave a tiny chance of his existence but it doesnt matter). Really! Its true. Even now sometimes by mistake I utter his name by habit sometimes. I believed in God as sincerely as oneone could. Ok I'm outta here now .. πŸ˜€

March 1, 2006
10:05 pm
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Tez,

I can't explain why animals suffer. I don't deny they do at times. I believe they, like us, will live eternally, and in the next life they will have a glorious, suffer-free life. There'll be no more feeding on each other; lions, tigers, and bears (oh my!) will all eat vegetation. I also don't sense that animals fear death like we do.

As for Satan, he wasn't stupid at all. He's highly intelligent. He was a son of the morning, one of God's chief sons, but he was jealous of Jesus Christ. He wanted to be the Savior. He wanted to force us all to be good and not let us have our free choice. But God chose Jesus instead, and so Satan rebelled against God. He persuaded a third of the hosts of heaven to rebel with him, and they were all cast out of heaven together, and now they roam the earth, seeking to destroy us. Sounds like something from a B-grade sci fi movie, I know, but it's true.

Have you heard of a book called The Satan Seller? The author used to be a satanic high priest -- he said he saw Satan once in a vision during a ceremony. He realized that Satan hates him and everybody else, and tries to destroy us because he can't destroy God himself, and we are the ones whom God loves the most. It causes God great sorrow to see any one of us choosing to be wicked, and great sorrow to see any of us suffering at the hands of wicked people.

March 1, 2006
10:14 pm
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Guest,

Yes, you'd mentioned before that you'd had a falling out with God. I remember you underwent a very painful trial, I don't recall what, that caused you to question why God let it and other things happen to you and others.

But I also sense that you still believe in God, that deep down you're looking for a reason to believe again.

Mind if I suggest something? Try forgiving God for causing your life to be so painful. If you don't feel you can do this, ask him for help in being able to forgive him, and see what happens. You might be surprised.

Seeker

March 1, 2006
11:57 pm
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Satan is real. I'm not deluded....baffling at times but not deluded πŸ™‚ And his main place of rule is the earth, and his main goal is to delude others and turn their focus away from God. It is all that he is here for.

March 2, 2006
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hi Seeker, I can be very rational when needed and I cant make myself believe in God. If believing in God made a difference, scientists would have been believers. Instead only 7% of them are believers. Its hard to change beliefs, I know so I can understand. Life's circumstances also help us in believing what we do. thanks anyway .. πŸ™‚ just wanted to popin :D. carry on πŸ™‚

March 2, 2006
6:02 pm
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seekerw

On 1-Mar-06, you said:

"I can't explain why animals suffer."

I can. It is because of the predatory world in which we live; a world that no loving God would have ever made. Therefore either your loving God doesn't exist or He is a sadist. Watch a wild bird, You can easily see the state of constant anxiety in which they live; ever watching for predators, nervous and careful. Perhaps they are paying for Adam and Eve's cock up too???

"As for Satan, he wasn't stupid at all. He's highly intelligent. "

But not intelligent enough to predict his own downfall. Your God created Satan according to you. What sort of a God would create Satan with less intelligence than that required to know the results of his rebellion, and with that God knowing in advance that Satan would corrupt lesser beings. How can you not hold your God responsible for the damage that you think your Satan has wrought??? Is is that you are frightened into saying and believing anything that you believe will appease your God? You remind me of the adherents of other primitive religions, whose beliefs you would undoubtedly hold as laughable. Sticking up for your God here should earn you some good 'body points'. With a belief system like you have espoused, He sure needs your support.

And you said:

"Have you heard of a book called The Satan Seller? The author used to be a satanic high priest -- he said he saw Satan once in a vision during a ceremony."

Because some guy sees a vision of Satan this convinces you that Satan exists????

My friend, people all over the world see visions of all sorts of deities. You would not believe that these many visions prove the existence of the deities that they see, would you?? Why would you choose to believe this guy? Because it serves to reinforce your 'security blanket'? Hmmmm!

At Fatima the crowd supposedly saw the sun move in an arc rapidly across the sky. Catholics firmly believe that this 'miracle' happened and that this vindicates their beliefs in Roman Catholicism. Hmmm! Strange that the rest of the planet never noticed the sun's little jaunt! My dear old dad went to his death believing this fairy story called Christianity. At the end it let him down badly as I knew it would. My greatest nightmare is to have one of those black robed, reversed white collar hypocrites hovering over my death bed wanting to rub his crap on my forehead while reciting mumbo jumbo and trying to extract a confession from me in order to 'save' me at the last minute.

If I had to choose, I would choose to believe in the veracity of Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf than in Christian dogma - the Red Riding Hood Story, like Father Christmas, is much more rational and believable.

March 2, 2006
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In an earlier thread that was deleted because i posted my email, I suggested reading THE CASE FOR FAITH by Lee Strobel and DEFENDING YOUR FAITH, an introduction to aplogetics, by RC Sproul.
Also here are a couple of websites:

Pain” by J. Budziszewski
http://www.boundless.org/2000/.....00178.html

Making Sense of Evil
http://www.boundless.org/2000/.....00188.html

March 2, 2006
9:58 pm
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on my way
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Tez,
Many people do see visions. It was predicted that they would. But not all are Christians, and not all are seeing pure visions. And Satan parades around like an angel of light. In order not to be swayed, and that time is coming, if not here, there has to be that spark of truth, for one to be able to discern.

I for one am not delusional. I for one know who God is and He makes himself real to me everyday. There are parts of this world that I cannot even fathom how ugly it is. I do know that it breaks my heart to see starving children on tv and not to be able to do anything about it but give money. I want to hold them, brush the flies away from thier face, play with them, feed them and give them hope. There are people who are already doing this though as well. God does not make men ugly. Men make themselves ugly. God provides a way out of the ugliness. There is evil in our world, but it does not come from God. You don't know what He is doing to counteract it, no one deos. But you cannot say that he is not.

See, those who love God and kinow him personally, and have seen so much proof that he is alive, find it difficult to see those who don't. It's like having a secret medicine that will cure everything. Would you keep that to yourself? Most likely not. But no one would beleive you unless they had seen you take the medicine and to see results. Do you not know anyone in your circle of friends whose lives have been changed simply by knowing God personally? I would promise you one thing...you get the Spirit of God in you and you will know the answers to all of these queestions and hurts of yours....if you don't have His Spirit, you won't understand...and that is about it in a nutshell. And being angry at him for what you think he does, won't make it any different...won't change anything. It is truly about you getting on your knees and saying, "Ok God, I beleive in you, but I can't beleive in a God who does ....then name it all out to him...then ask him to show you the 1% that you won't let go of, ask him to fill you with his Spirit.....I mean WHAT do you have to lose?? nothing. But I could promise you alot to gain.

Personally, God has healed through me before, and I have been healed. There are people out there who follow evil spirits and they think it is God as well. You can tell them by if they follow a "religion" or if they have a personal relationship with God. Some people heal others and give the credit to themselves, or some other 'spirit'. I KNOW the difference. And one has to know the difference in order to know the truth.

God reaches down to man, takes our hand when we reach up. Buddhism does not reach for anyone, but tells you what you have to do to reach peace. Generally like giving a baby a bike and telling him to go ride it, knowing he will fall over and over again. Our human nature is such that we will try over and over again to be succeessful without the right tools.
Buddhism is horizontal...man reaching to man. Man fails man over and over. A personal reltionship with God is vertical...God reaching down to man, man is free to choose to reach back up, and what flows through flows out to men and back up to God. God is glorified in his own right as he is God....even though he came to earth as a man and lived among us not thinking more of himself or clinging to his right as God, and died a terrible death on the cross to save us from ourselves because we are sinful. Sin separates us from God. And technically there is NOTHING we can do to earn God's acceptance or love, he just loves us, as we are. I never had to get my act together to go to God, I went to God and HE is getting my act together. If I depended on me, I know myslef well enough that I wouldn't go. I would be fearful, and feel like I would never measure up...but I learned that HE loved me anyway, which mdea big difference in my ability to trust that love.

If anyone gave their life to Christ, by praying and asking him into their lives....I could personally GUARANTEE a differnt life for them. They had the medicine, they took it and lived. Or they hae the medicine and they look at it and say, hmmmm...well yep it is the right color, it is the right shape, it smells right, it tastes right, but there is one little dot over here on it and i won't take it until i understand what that dot is.....pretty soon you die. And basically it is like the medicine...you take it and live, or you don't and die. And this is our free will.

I tried to post my email to you, thought it would ahve been easier for some people I know to write to you. Was even willing to get myself kicked off aac in order to possibly help you understand from some of the ministers i know, but i got caught and SC thankfully did not kick me off, and i can't ignore guidelines or be disrespectful again.

So guess we will keep posting. Please let me know what you think of the websites I posted. Some of the authors to the right of the articles are intersting. I hope you can find Theophilus...as he is the one who really answers all of this stuff you have questions about.

Love ya, πŸ™‚
omw

March 2, 2006
10:05 pm
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Hi Erica, I am so sorry that you had to go through the bad experiences of the past with religion. I lived protected from so many things growing up. I can feel a small part of your pain from your words. I am so sorry. You are one of the most open person that I have come across in a long time. I hope you can leave the past behind you and move forward. You have helped me understand things that I have never had to deal with and I thank you for that. You are a good person. I could see myself being your friend very easily. Have a good weekend.
Nice Guy.

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