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Tez, on proving the existence of God logically ...
February 6, 2006
6:22 pm
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seekerw

On the 2-Feb-06 you said:

""Free will" is relative. Nobody has absolute freedom of choice, hence, there's no absolute free will."

Exactly - free will is relative to how well informed one is about the exact nature of the choices one has from which to choose.

If, as well, one is in ignorance of the workings, drives, motivations of one's own unconscious mind, how free is one to choose what to believe as being 'absolute' truth?

I maintain that one is only as free as one's insights into the exact nature of what we so blithely call the 'self'.

Unless you are a Buddha or another JC, I suspect that like the rest of us you are grappling with far less insights in that regard than you really need to make an 'informed' choice about anything. In case you consider this as an insult, I apply this statement to myself as well.

You also said:

"I read Victor Frankl's book relating his experience in a WWII concentration camp. He had very little real freedom, but he did have one freedom that nobody could ever take away -- the power to choose his attitude, to choose how he would react to things that happened to him. He had free will even in prison."

I am familiar with Frankl's book "Man's Search For Meaning." Frankl did choose his attitude to his persecutors and his pain. That is why he suffered far less than had he chosen to hate both his pain and his persecutors. Because of his 'will to meaning' his suffering was lessened to the extent that his increased 'will to live' contributed largely to his survival. On Frankl's own admission, those who lost the 'will to live', though no sicker than the rest, simply didn't live through the next night. He said that this was very evident to the rest of the departed's inmates.

However, how really 'free' was the choice that Frankl's fellow inmates made? I suspect that they saw 'no choice at all' but to suffer and die.

Frankl's choice of what attitude he was to take was much more informed that that of his fellow prisoners.

Your choice as to who is talking to you in your head is conditioned by your upbringing, as part of your 'socialization'.

The Christian message was part of your socialization whether you were conscious of it or not. Like Easter and Christmas, the reference to the Christian God are intrinsic in our daily life. We swear on the bible in a court of law. Reference to God is in your constitution is it not? I suspect that you would have taken the existence of God for granted long before you even asked the question "Who made the world and everything in it?"

So when you hear answers in your head that seem wise well beyond what wisdom you would attribute to your 'self', it is of little wonder that you choose to believe that it is God talking to you.

How informed is your choice in this? Therefore how free are you to choose? In my view, your choice is highly constrained by prior conditionings, some of which were mentioned above, and therefore not free at all.

For us to be truly free we would need to be like your God; that is both omnipotent and omniscient. Since we are neither, then we are not truly free to choose the 'absolute' truth in which to believe.

An omnipotent and omniscient God, if he were to exist, would certainly not be unconditionally loving to allow you to remain in your state of lack of total freedom to accurately choose what to believe as being 'absolute' truth.

Yet your God would punish with eternal hellfire and damnation those of us who make the 'wrong choice' in what to believe?? This would be hardly the behavior of an unconditionally loving, all knowing, all powerful God.

February 6, 2006
9:27 pm
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Tez,

{I maintain that one is only as free as one's insights into the exact nature of what we so blithely call the 'self'.}

Agreed. I subscribe these 'insights' that we get to God and our own efforts at acheiving them.

{I suspect that like the rest of us you are grappling with far less insights in that regard than you really need to make an 'informed' choice about anything.}

I'm the first to admit I don't know very much; I don't know all the options available to me. My whole life has been and will continue to be a struggle against ignorance.

But if God is real, and he tells you something, then you know that one thing for certain, even if you don't know anything else for sure.

{However, how really 'free' was the choice that Frankl's fellow inmates made? I suspect that they saw 'no choice at all' but to suffer and die.

Frankl's choice of what attitude he was to take was much more informed that that of his fellow prisoners. }

Perhaps Frankl choose a more enlightened mindset than his fellow prisoners. Had they followed his example, instead of giving up the will to live, they surely would have experienced the same benefits, and their ignorance would have fallen away gradually.

{Your choice as to who is talking to you in your head is conditioned by your upbringing, as part of your 'socialization'.}

Why are you so sure that what I hear is NOT from God? You don't sound too sure about many other things.

{Yet your God would punish with eternal hellfire and damnation those of us who make the 'wrong choice' in what to believe?? This would be hardly the behavior of an unconditionally loving, all knowing, all powerful God. }

Some people say this, but I don't. You're only punished when you reject something you know, such as when you live against your conscience. Anything you are wrong in, that you truly do not know is wrong, doesn't count against you. You will gradually come to know what things these are.

Seeker

February 7, 2006
6:21 pm
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Seekerw

On the 6-Feb-06 you asked:

"Why are you so sure that what I hear is NOT from God? You don't sound too sure about many other things."

I'm NOT sure that the voices that you and I hear in ours head from time to time, ARE or ARE NOT from some God that might or might NOT exist. However there are several other very plausible explanations for the origin of these voices - mental illness being but one.

Further, I'm equally UNSURE that some God even exists at all.

Therefore I am classified by society as an agnostic.

What I am sure about is that we cannot know for sure and for certain that a God exists one way or the other.

What I am also sure about is that suffering exists.

Belief in the existence of a God of some kind who created all including sentient beings' CAPACITY to suffer is just that - belief and nothing more - and beliefs throughout the world are legion.

The range of beliefs about the initial causes of all creation and the existence of some Deity(s) being the ultimate cause abound in great scope.

My intellect and yours is therefore a valuable tool as a CRAP DETECTOR to avoid getting caught up in emotionally driven religiousity like those at Waco and Jonestown or Al Queda have done. If we choose to use it, that is.

Thus as soon as someone comes up with some concept such as the existence of some God as did the early Israelites, then I ask the question:

"What are the characteristics of this God of yours?"

Then I bring my CRAP DETECTOR into the full power up mode.

Then I evaluate the PROBABILITIES of that imagined God existing with those supposed characteristics in the light of the PREDATORY world that I see all around me.

If I find GROSS INCONGRUENCY then I bypass that belief system completely.

No one, yourself included, seems so far to be able to reconcile the THREE ATTRIBUTES of the Christian God as professed by all the Christians with whom I have come in contact, with the PREDATORY WORLD that I observe all around me; a world purportedly created by that same Christian God.

Of this Christian INABILITY, I am sure. But I keep an open mind in order to give people like yourself the opportunity to disabuse me of this empirically based surity.

February 8, 2006
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Tez,

{No one, yourself included, seems so far to be able to reconcile the THREE ATTRIBUTES of the Christian God as professed by all the Christians with whom I have come in contact, with the PREDATORY WORLD that I observe all around me; a world purportedly created by that same Christian God.}

I've been meaning to reconcile these, but haven't had time. But my explanation won't make sense. Assume for now that God exists, that we lived with him before we were born on this world, and that he taught us there all we needed to know. Then he sent us here to be tried and tested to give us a chance to show ourselves how closely we would do what's right (that is, follow our consciences).

Since we had to be tried and tested, this world is predatory, with trials, hardships, war, etc. When we turn to him in the midst of our trials, he's always ready to comfort us. There's no predation or trials in the next life.

Think of this life to be like boot camp, which isn't meant to be easy.

But if you don't believe in an afterlife or beforelife, this explanation won't make any sense. But it's all I have to offer.

Seeker

February 8, 2006
5:33 pm
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Seekerw

Thanks for having a go at it. This is more than anyone else has done over the years.

I respect your caveat about prerequisite beliefs.

On the 8-Feb-06 your caveat was:

"Assume for now that God exists, that we lived with him before we were born on this world, and that he taught us there all we needed to know."

But Christian belief is that God created us. At exactly what point in time isn't made clear. But for the sake of the argument if you like, that time could be prior to inception.

However, from your above post, I draw the implication that according to your beliefs we were neither created omniscient, omnipotent nor unconditionally loving.

Then you said:

"Then he sent us here to be tried and tested to give us a chance to show ourselves how closely we would do what's right (that is, follow our consciences)."

I have a real problem with this concept of a universal "conscience" as being a unitary standard model. What a tribal headhunter considers to be 'right' and 'wrong' by his 'conscience' is very different to the conditioned JudeoChristian conscience. Lopping his enemy's head off and eating his body parts is a ritualistic part of his beliefs and his conscience is very clear on that matter.

If I missed Mass on a Sunday morning I went through hell with my conscience until I 'confessed' my mortal sin the following Saturday afternoon. Non-catholics didn't seem to have the same model 'standard' conscience as I did. Now my 'conscience' has a very different set of reference criteria.

The examples of the variability of human 'consciences' across the human platform in time, space and culture is legion.

"Since we had to be tried and tested, this world is predatory, with trials, hardships, war, etc. When we turn to him in the midst of our trials, he's always ready to comfort us. There's no predation or trials in the next life."

That God never manifested in front of me despite my best efforts over many years. In fact it was only after joining the Raja Yoga faith that I got any God talking to me at all. Then I eventually found out that it wasn't God talking to me at all - but Me talking to me. But it sure sounded like an anthropomorphic God! It was my conscious mind talking to unconscious mind.

Besides, the problem that I have with this belief of yours is exactly the same problem that I have with the Book of Job.

We have a God that sets us up for suffering knowing well in advance the outcomes, knowing that the degree of suffering will vary from human to human, from animal to animal in an unjust way - I presume that you don't believe in the laws of Karma.

Then this capricious God claims to be setting us up in a state of relative ignorance of his 'plan' for our benefit??? You are implying that God knowingly causes suffering by his inherent design plan???

Then he rewards us if we are true to the standard JudeoChristian 'conscience'?

Otherwise its down the shit shute into everlasting fires of hell with the weeping and gnashing of teeth failures?

None of the above is logically congruent with the characteristics of an omnipotent, omniscient, unconditionally loving God.

How can knowingly being set up fro suffering be justified as loving, no matter what the reward might be, when you are all powerful and can bring into existence beings that are perfectly happy in the first place.

Let's consider the suffering of animals. Do they have a conscience also - in your opinion?

I was taught by the Christian Brothers, experts in the knowledge of the Christian God, that animals didn't have souls and therefore didn't have an afterlife.

What kind of a God would inflict the suffering of the PREDATORY world on poor dumb animals with no reward whatsoever? A bloody sadistic one at best.

Just look at the horrendous blood sacrifices of animals in the books of the old testament and you will see where this horrendous concept of Christ, as a 'sacrificial lamb', came from. How just and loving is it to punish a 'whipping boy', albeit God-man, for the prince's misdemeanours? It is neither just nor loving.

If you studied psychology with any depth of thinking behind it, you would see how childhood rearing has such a profound effect upon the human psyche. Throw in genetic and archetypal inheritances and cultural socialization practices then you have an 'auto-pilot driven' human, who attains 'manual control' only after many years on intense study, much reflection, contemplation and meditation. Some humans are so badly disadvantaged in all aspects that they die long before any semblance of insightful self-analysis is possible.

And you still claim there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and unconditionally loving God who orchestrates everything to be in the best interests of all SENTIENT human beings, animals included?

Do you not think that your beliefs might just be a tiny bit emotionally conditioned and cognitively substantiated without any in depth analysis? After all is feels good to believe in a big daddy in the sky who will make everything right for us despite how we suffer now and in compensation for it.

Are you not desperately trying to make sense out of Judaic beliefs that emanated from a primitive tribal minds of Israelites millenia ago?

Sure Nietsche was probably right when he said:

"He who knows the 'why' can bear almost any 'how'".

But the 'why' has to make sense and be logically coherent before the 'why' is acceptable to me.

February 8, 2006
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{However, from your above post, I draw the implication that according to your beliefs we were neither created omniscient, omnipotent nor unconditionally loving. }

True.

{I have a real problem with this concept of a universal "conscience" as being a unitary standard model.}

I think you could find general agreement across all cultures. I don't think any culture condones anybody murdering its own members, sleeping with a neighbor's wife, stealing from one's neighbor, etc.

There is of course some variation in customs, but that doesn't make it right.

{Then I eventually found out that it wasn't God talking to me at all - but Me talking to me. But it sure sounded like an anthropomorphic God!}

No wonder you were so skeptical about the origin of my 'voice'!

{We have a God that sets us up for suffering knowing well in advance the outcomes,}

True, but we don't know them.

{I presume that you don't believe in the laws of Karma. }

I believe in consequences for doing right or wrong. This I believe is Karma, isn't it?

{You are implying that God knowingly causes suffering by his inherent design plan??? }

True, in the same sense that a parent knows his child will suffer at times in the process of learning things, becoming independent, and developing self discipline.

{Then he rewards us if we are true to the standard JudeoChristian 'conscience'? }

I think he rewards us according to what we morally knew or didn't know -- not according to some standard conscience.

{None of the above is logically congruent with the characteristics of an omnipotent, omniscient, unconditionally loving God. }

This is why I can't prove God to anybody through logic.

{How can knowingly being set up fro suffering be justified as loving, no matter what the reward might be, when you are all powerful and can bring into existence beings that are perfectly happy in the first place. }

Perfect happiness comes after this life, if you have merited it. But I believe that the eternal world (after the resurrection) will be far more glorious than this one, even for Hitlers and Stalins. But the eternal worlds for people who were overall good people will be far, far more glorious still.

{Let's consider the suffering of animals. Do they have a conscience also - in your opinion? }

No, but they also don't seem to have a fear of death, like most of us do. They endure suffering stoically and without question.

{I was taught by the Christian Brothers, experts in the knowledge of the Christian God, that animals didn't have souls and therefore didn't have an afterlife. }

Anybody's interpretation of the Bible, no matter how scholarly and learned they are, is authoritative. It must always be taken with a grain of salt, even someone like Billy Graham's. I believe animals have souls and have an afterlife.

{What kind of a God would inflict the suffering of the PREDATORY world on poor dumb animals with no reward whatsoever? A bloody sadistic one at best.}

He takes no pleasure in anybody's suffering, whether human or animal.

{Some humans are so badly disadvantaged in all aspects that they die long before any semblance of insightful self-analysis is possible. }

True, but God takes all this into account.

{And you still claim there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and unconditionally loving God who orchestrates everything to be in the best interests of all SENTIENT human beings, animals included? }

Not everything. If one person murders another, that is not necessarily in the best interest of the victim. But God has to play hide and seek with us, and he has to let us have our freedom of will (as much as we can have, anyway). Thus he has to allow a certain amount of suffering.

{"He who knows the 'why' can bear almost any 'how'". }

Yes, like Frankl in "Man's SEarch for Meaning".

{But the 'why' has to make sense and be logically coherent before the 'why' is acceptable to me.}

Logic is a tool for us to use. But we don't use a screwdriver to pound in a nail, do we? Logic can't be used for every circumstance.

Seeker

February 12, 2006
11:11 pm
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Tez,

You're looking for an answer to the question of why we must suffer. I don't know; I can't answer it. All I know is that I suffer sometimes, but the suffering doesn't last forever. When it's lifted, and I feel joyful, and the suffering that I endured doesn't seem to matter anymore.

If I never suffered, how could I appreciate joy when I felt it? I'd be like a spoiled child, given everything my whole life, and never appreciating anything.

Seeker

February 18, 2006
6:30 pm
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12-Feb-06

You said:,

"You're looking for an answer to the question of why we must suffer."

Not at all - I believe that I know why we suffer. That is not my quest at all.

This is what I am looking for:

I am 99.9% convinced that given:

1. the predatory world and

2. generally speaking, our ignorance of why we suffer,

then, a 'God' with the Christian ascribed attributes could not possibly exist.

HOWEVER, given that there seem to be some intelligent Christians in this world, I have some concerns about my 0.1% doubting of the veracity of my own convictions.

Thus to be 100% unequivocally convinced of the non-existence of the Christian 'God', I like to explore the Christian logic underpinning their convictions about the three attributes of their God in the light of the predatory world and their suffering.

In analysing the relevant Christian 'logic', so far I have only found enculturation, indoctrination, socialization and illogical, emotionally based beliefs.

However, I live in hope that some Christian might 'surface' who is willing to take the issue head on by logically, intelligently and fearlessly looking at their beliefs without resorting to underpinning questionable beliefs such as 'God talks to me', 'touchy-feely', 'feel-good' emotions and to references to authority figures and authoritatively written scripture for validations.

In regard to thiestic religions of the world , I see only diversity, fragmentation, conflict, ambiguity, animosity, violence, corruption, hypocrisy and very conditional 'love'. Christian countries go to war invoking their Christian God's support!! How unChristian can that be! It is obvious to blind Freddy that Christianity does not work!

After all if a 'God' truly existed with the Christian attributed characteristics then he/she/it would manifest in a manner that would both unify and bask all of humanity in the unconditional love that he/she/it supposedly possesses.

It ain't happenin' and we are on the verge of destroying the planet as a cradle for human life - not to mention our fellow animals! Guilty and innocent have and will continue to suffer alike and terribly. Where is your God when he/she/it is most needed? Do we have to make up stories to justify his/her/it's conspicuous absence?

February 19, 2006
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Tez,

Once again, this is why I can't prove God's existence by logic alone. You will always have that 0.1% doubt of God's non-existence, because you can't know it by logic, yet you are trying to.

Sorry, but God reveals himself to us generally by speaking to our spirit (i.e, a "voice", though not a voice in the traditional sense). He doesn't engage us in logics. I submit that the existence of God is not illogical, but a-logical.

I don't know how to reconcile for you this predatory world and a loving God, except that saying that you can find peace, an incredible peace, in the midst of this predatory world.

{Do we have to make up stories to justify his/her/it's conspicuous absence?}

Again, God has to play hide and seek with us. He can't make it obvious that he exists. And any suffering that we or anything else endures in this world is only temporary. We only see a snapshot, one frame as it were, in the movie of eternity.

Seeker

February 20, 2006
4:34 pm
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Seekerw
19-Feb-06
Seekerw

On the 19-Feb-06 you said:

"... you can find peace, an incredible peace, in the midst of this predatory world."

You can find peace in many different ways. Ostriches do it by putting their heads in the sand.

As I suspected, Christianity is about feeling good through an unchallenged, intellectually blind belief in a big daddy in the sky who will one day make things right if we tap dance to his tune. The problem is that there are many bands playing and all claiming to be playing that big daddy's tune.

And you also said:

"Again, God has to play hide and seek with us.

Why has this got to be so? If I want a relationship with someone, do I hide from that person and then give that person a great many very ambiguous and irrational messages about how to find me? I wouln't rationally expect that person to want to be in a relationship with me would I.

You can't prove that God does or does not exist. Neither can I.

But you can try to reconcile your beliefs about the CHARACTERISTICS of that god of yours with the world in which we live. Now it appears that very aggressive bacteria are set to challenge medical science yet again while predating on humanity directly in the most horrible manner. What sort of a God would create such a world in the first place????

I'm sorry - I don't buy the naive myth of Adam and Eve's original sin - it is of the same genre as the stories about boogy men designed to frighten children out of their wits.

God either does not exist or he is a sadist and/or a masochist - that is, he is very mentally disturbed in the mind. I much prefer the former alternative to the latter.

February 24, 2006
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Hi Tez,

I wish I could answer your questions about God and religion, but I can't. It's just not in my power.

You imply that I stick my head in the sand about reconciling my belief in God with this predatory world, but that's okay. God has answered many of my prayers, too many for me to not know he's there. How do I know they're from God? It like asking what salt tastes like -- I just know salt when I taste it, is the best I can describe it. I've received a number of true impressions from God, and some false ones. The false ones tend to drop away over time, and the true ones tend to remain.

That said, it is up to me to reconcile my own knowledge of God with things I experience and observe. I don't always understand why things are as they are; God doesn't tell me why he does what he does; I don't always understand why there is such suffering in this world. I just know that God exists, and that there is suffering in the world. It's up to me to do the reconciling for myself, not God.

Seeker

February 24, 2006
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Tez,

A correction to what I just posted:

{I've received a number of true impressions from God, and some false ones. }

I meant I've received true impressions from God and false ones from myself or other sources. IMHO, God doesn't give false impressions.

on my way,

Good to see you again. It's been a little while since I've seen you post.

Seeker

February 24, 2006
1:58 pm
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On my way,

THE CASE FOR FAITH that tells this story by Lee Strobel. In it he nullifies the toughest arguments against Christianity.

This says nothing to me because I strongly suspect the author is baised and not coming from an objective place.

You don't say HOW he nullifies arguments against Christianity.

The way i see it is that there is universal energy that can be tapped into. When I use the phrase 'the universe always provides' I am amazed a the results I get.

Just because you feel that your prayers were answered doesn't prove a thing. It could be that you tapped into the universal energy and that energy responded to you not God in the Christian sense.

I do not believe that a God in the Christian sense exits. I do not believe that he would allow innocent babies to strave to death or 6 million jews to be treated like they are lower than dirt and be slautered.

I have never heard a response to that that sounds reasonable.

It seems that explainations resolve around saying things like God had his reasons or only God knows the answer. That's a cop out to me.

February 24, 2006
3:32 pm
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OMW,

Posting your email here, showed a tremendous amount of disrespect for this site, for me, and others here.

I'm very appalled that you did this, and with such flippant disregard.

Please folks, no email...

SC

February 24, 2006
5:46 pm
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Seekerw.

Thanks for your patience with me and your tolerance for what must at times have seemed like outright attacks on the tenets of your faith.

I'll optimistically wait for another Christian with flawless logic to reconcile for me what appears to me to be irreconcilable; i.e. the three fundamental attributes of the Christian God and the predatory world which He supposedly created.

February 24, 2006
5:53 pm
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Kathygy.

Though I don't know what OMW wrote, I tend to agree with your underlying reasoning in your response of 24-Feb-2006 to her.

February 24, 2006
6:24 pm
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tez-she posted her email to u late last night. she wanted to have a more in depth talk and she was offering her email.

February 24, 2006
6:47 pm
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Thanks Guppy. Your posting is appreciated.

February 24, 2006
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Tez,

{Thanks for your patience with me and your tolerance for what must at times have seemed like outright attacks on the tenets of your faith.}

Attacks?!? Yikes. I was under heavy fire. Glad the artillery's been called off. :o) (Another of the smiley faces I like to use)

{I'll optimistically wait for another Christian with flawless logic to reconcile for me what appears to me to be irreconcilable}

I encourage you to not hold your breath waiting. You're more likely to see somebody fly like Superman to the sun, burrow right into its very center , and emerge alive and well. It simply can't be done. But I hope I'm wrong; I hope I am for your sake. Maybe I wasn't the right person to take this project on.

Seeker

February 24, 2006
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Kathygy,

{I do not believe that a God in the Christian sense exits. I do not believe that he would allow innocent babies to strave to death or 6 million jews to be treated like they are lower than dirt and be slautered.

I have never heard a response to that that sounds reasonable.}

Have you asked God, or the universe, whatever you want to call it, about this? If you do, and sincerely want an answer to it, you'll get it.

Whenever we follow correct principles, whether we ascribe them to God, Buddha, the universe, Hare Krishna, etc., we get results.

February 24, 2006
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Tez,

Last night I attended a divorce recovery meeting. A lady described how she was abused by her husband, and when she had the gumption to divorce him, he planted drugs in her car and made sure she was pulled over and her car searched. She went to jail and now has a felony conviction and has lost all rights to visit her children.

Another woman described how she lost her 21-year-old daughter to cancer, and the suffering her daughter underwent in her last year.

Yes, these accounts trouble me very much. I wept as I listened to these ladies. I don't understand why such pain has to exist. I certainly can't explain it to anybody else.

But I don't feel I have to reconcile it logically to myself or anybody else. I just don't feel the need to do so. I'll understand why someday. Until then, I just have to live life the best I can.

Seeker

February 25, 2006
5:28 pm
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seekerw
24-Feb-06

Talking about suffering you said:

"But I don't feel I have to reconcile it logically to myself or anybody else. I just don't feel the need to do so."

"He who knows the 'why' can bear almost any 'how'" - Nietzche

Maybe when your own personal suffering reaches a sufficient intensity and no relief comes through your 'personal channel' to your God then you might feel the need to ask 'why?'.

I found taking up the cross of meaningless suffering and 'following in Jesus's footsteps' was of little balm to me as an answer for the 'why?'.

Then you said:

"I'll understand why someday. Until then, I just have to live life the best I can."

Yep, ... ... maybe until the arrival of your personal 'dark night of the soul', wherein pious Christian platitudes might avail you nought. You may then seek other answers as I did.

February 26, 2006
12:31 am
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on my way
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guppy,
thank you.

kathyg,
read the book. no more debates for me. God isn't debatable in my book.

SC, apologies. I was wrong to defy guidelines.

Tez, my heart got in the way and I posted my email address. I thought it would be easier, and at the time I cared more about you than the rules and guidelines. Thought it would be more effective to pass along information from the minister friends of mine that you requested the latter part of last year. I felt it more important at the time. oh well.

February 26, 2006
1:36 am
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on my way-i am soooo glad to see u are still with us, my friend. i worried when i saw your email, that u were gonna get the boot!! ha ha
i made the same mistake on here so i know where u are coming from. stuff just happens. anyway, glad to see u are still in the family. 🙂

February 26, 2006
1:56 am
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Hi Tez,

You said:

{"He who knows the 'why' can bear almost any 'how'" - Nietzche}

I reply: "He to whom God has revealed himself can bear with any sorrow" - Seeker

{Maybe when your own personal suffering reaches a sufficient intensity and no relief comes through your 'personal channel' to your God then you might feel the need to ask 'why?'.}

Come on, man. I've been separated from my wife and kids for two years now. Do you think I haven't suffered over this? But my personal channel has come through for me, even in this distress, so I don't feel the need to ask 'why'.

{I found taking up the cross of meaningless suffering and 'following in Jesus's footsteps' was of little balm to me as an answer for the 'why?'. }

It sounds like you didn't have a personal channel to God. I know how that goes, Tez. I've been there myself. I'm very sorry you didn't have this.

Suffering doesn't have to be meaningless. PLease let me know if you want me to say more on this.

{Yep, ... ... maybe until the arrival of your personal 'dark night of the soul', wherein pious Christian platitudes might avail you nought. You may then seek other answers as I did.}

I didn't rely on any platitudes. I prayed, and God answered me. He comforted me and gave me insights. So I didn't have to seek other answers ... even though I am Seeker. LOL (the last part is a joke, though I fear it will get lost in the context).

Seeker

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