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Tez, on proving the existence of God logically ...
January 28, 2006
4:56 am
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Tez,

I hope you're back at the site soon. I saw that you'll be off for a few days.

After our discussions on the other thread, I've given some thought to how one can prove that God exists logically, without an appeal to dogma or emotion. I tried to see things from what I imagine your viewpoint is -- all you see is a life on earth, from birth to the death you know awaits all of us, with no evidence of anything afterward. You see sadness, suffering, and sorrow around you. You've sought out God before, but were unable to find him. You must feel he has deserted you, if he ever was there in the first place. You see hypocrisy (I imagine) in those who profess to know him, and they seem no more advanced, no more "evolved" so to speak, than anybody else.

Please, let me know if I am right in my musings. I'll wait to hear from you before continuing on.

Seeker

January 29, 2006
4:44 pm
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I would simply say that if a God of some kind exists we cannot know. I certainly don't believe that the Christian God of the three attributes of omnipotence, omniscience and unconditionally loving nature exists. This statement is evidenced by the predatory world which He supposedly created.

You wouldn't deny the predatory nature of the world would you?

One only has to watch any nature film on TV or look in your own back yard to see ample evidence of this predation in action any day of the week. The meat that you eat was killed in a cruel and terrible way at an abbatoirs near you - an animal version of Auschwitz except an automated hammer is used - its cheaper than Xlygon B gas and more efficient.

January 29, 2006
10:31 pm
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Tez,

Good to hear from you. You've basically confirmed my hypothesis about where you're coming from.

Okay, here's what I have to say about proving God logically ... {drum roll} ... {another drum roll} ... I can't prove it {the drums fall silent; in fact, the drum sticks fall on the floor and are lost}.

I could point out that this world is so intricate -- so many life forms, so well designed, with one life form that can even reason about its world and change its very environment. I could point out how intricate even a single cell is. Certainly there has to be a designer for all this.

You could then question who or what designed the designer. I have no answer for that, except that by hypothesis, the designer's from a different world and different rules could apply. But that sounds too much like a cop-out.

This world is predatory, yes, no denying that.

The only answer I have is that, as you look around at the predatory world, at the suffering and misery that exists, you might hope that something better exists. You might say to yourself something like, "What this crazy Seeker says about God could be true. I wonder ..."

Seeker

January 29, 2006
10:50 pm
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Seeker, I wouldnt like to get into long debate, hehe, but I couldnt resist. Yes, who created God? You say you dont know the answer to that. well: Its the same way I say I have no answer to "who created the world". I was a very very strong believer in God. He was my only friend for many years. Sometimes I would feel his existence and power and my eyes would well-up in tears (I'm a guy!). Then in a year of self-discovery, one question led to another. I say, whatever makes a person happy is ok for me.

January 29, 2006
11:03 pm
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Hi guest,

I'm glad you don't want to get into a long debate. Neither do I. I'm glad we see eye-to-eye on this.

I didn't mean I have no answer to the question about who created the designer. I meant that my answer could not logically convince somebody to adopt my belief system -- my answer must sound equally as convincing or unconvincing as somebody else's answer as to who or what created the world and the life thereon.

So you used to be a strong believer in God. Mind if I ask why you went into the year of self-discovery?

Seeker

January 29, 2006
11:17 pm
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I know, yes, your answers wouldnt satisfy me and mine wouldnt satisfy you.

Why I went into self-discovery? Well, I couldnt find some socks of mine and I went looking all over the house when suddenly I saw myself in a big mirror and said "OMG, what have I turned into?" and so started the journey of my self-discovery which started with me getting plastic surgery to get those horns out of my head. hehe. OOPS, ok, sorry.

Why? because of my depression and low self-esteem. I wanted to find out why I was like that. I found my parenting was nowwhere near ideal, which my mom had always told us it was. That was changing of one belief in me and that led to me questioning God and asking him questions in anger, as to why he put me in such a sad life and that, he would have to be the one to get me out of it or else I'd commit suicide. Further questioning led me to find other faults in religion and it just kept on growing from there. Now I think, whether or not God exists, what effect does that have on my current life? To me, there's no effect. yes, its sometimes extremely sad to believe that this life is all there is, our loved ones will never meet me again and I'll never be alive again, but thats what it looks like. I think of it this way. If you have $100 and you're told this is the only chance you'll get to spend money, you'll spend it much more carefully than in the following situation:

You are given $100 and told, you'll be given more money later on.

In the 2nd situation, you might not spend that carefully because you know you're gonna get some more money later on. But if you're told this is the last $100 you'll ever spend, you might be more careful. I know the counter argument infact reverses the tables but thats how I think. I know in my case, I might take life more "lightly" if I know it wont be the last I'll have.

January 30, 2006
10:06 am
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guest,

I want to answer you, but have run out of time. I'll answer later tonight. Have a great day.

Seeker

January 30, 2006
10:33 am
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seeker,

Thomas von Aquin did a lot of writing about proving the existence of God. Maybe you can do some digging there?

January 30, 2006
1:16 pm
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"I could point out that this world is so intricate -- so many life forms, so well designed, with one life form that can even reason about its world and change its very environment. I could point out how intricate even a single cell is. Certainly there has to be a designer for all this."

I believe that chemical reactions started life on planet earth. Chemistry and biochemistry over time is the designer.

just because man can reason and so can many animals including cats is no prove of god.

I believe that evolution is the explanation. If there was divine intervention then I would think it was from some some extra-trestrial intelligence who came to planet earth long ago before I would believe that god had a role.

January 30, 2006
1:49 pm
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hi Seeker, thats alright, take your time! see you soon.

January 30, 2006
2:11 pm
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Hi to all

So interesting what Kathygy said, I can relate

I believe that chemical reactions started life on planet earth. Chemistry and biochemistry over time is the designer

I agree because faith is a spiritual dimention and has nothing to do with a 'physical creation'

I believe evolution shapes and is still shaping the physical world ,and that the creations as per the bible is a parable of mans spiritual awakening.

Can somebody please translate or just write the firts verse of the bible here.

Thanks

Garfield

January 30, 2006
7:00 pm
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seekerw
29-Jan-06

"This world is predatory, yes, no denying that.

The only answer I have is that, as you look around at the predatory world, at the suffering and misery that exists, you might hope that something better exists."

Hope springs eternal my friend. But hope does not form a good basis for having a good 'crap detector' - the reasoning intellect does.

We would be well advised, at least in the initial stages of taking on some belief, to examine the rationality of fundamental precepts that underpin that belief before taking the next step in inculcating that belief.

Unfortunately as children we didn't possess a developed sense of these powers of reasoning. Thus many of us simply adopted our second hand beliefs directly from our parents and earliest indoctrinators.

Thus as adults, since it seems so familiar and thus so right, we tend to continue to inbibe religious dogma related to our childhood beliefs unquestioningly.

Once you start to look closely at childhood beliefs that are taken so much for granted you start to feel fear, fear that you might have been duped by well meaning adults in the past. Fear that your foundations might crumble. Fear that you might not be alright no matter what. Fear that the big daddy in the sky might not protect you. Fear, fear, fear manifest in so many gross and subtle forms!

Having overcome that fear and with fresh eyes, you can look anew at old beliefs and fearlessly question them from the point of a new found courage coupled with clear thinking.

It is then that you realize that there is a veritable smorgasboard of beliefs some more rational than, some less rational than Christianity.

Then you start to question the 'gurus' of these various religions at the most fundamental levels of their beliefs. Broadly speaking, you will get different kinds of responses: one response is of fear, another is of openminded interest, while a third is a response that is rational, surefooted, open to all questions no matter what, a response that has logical answers no matter what the question.

The fear response manifests in several ways. One fear response is denial. Denial can take many forms. Reference to so called authorities such biblical quotes is one form or denial of one's own ability to think for one's self. Another is to revert to raw anger. This fear response is intended to discourage the person who is 'shaking' the lifeboat.

Open minded, interested and very intrinsically secure believers examine the logic of their beliefs without being consumed by fear. These rare breed of people then either deepen their beliefs of discard them according to how their self discoveries shape up on the rationality stakes.

Which are you Seekerw?

Will you evade or directly address the issue of the incongruity between the predatory world and the three attributes of its supposed creator?

January 30, 2006
8:24 pm
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Seekerw

You said:

"You could then question who or what designed the designer. I have no answer for that ... "

Neither does anyone else - you are in very good company, mon amigo.

Thus one can start with some fundamental assumption such as the 4 assumptions below; i.e. either:

1. God always was and always will be beyond his creation of time and space. This personal God with a personality created time and space and either let it run free to evolve or directs the evolutional process or only intercedes when asked by some higher life form to do so. This God created us in his image. Thus this God feels like we feel and even thinks as we do, albeit in a superior fashion in accordance with his nature.

In addition the fundamental nature of this anthropomorphic God is either:

(a) omnipotent and nothing else, or

(b) omnipotent, omniscient, and nothing else, or

(c) omnipotent, omniscient, and conditionally loving and nothing else or

(d) omnipotent, omniscient, unconditionally loving and nothing else.

(e)omnipotent, omniscient, unconditionally loving and other characteristics of which we know nothing.

2. Time and space always were and always will be beyond any initial creation evolving according to some eternal law of quantum physics. Our minds are purely functions of an organic brain and they go out of existence with death. Each 'big bang' is followed by a big implosion followed by another big bang, in an eternal cyclic whirling dance, without aim and without meaning. The universe is a big mindless machine without beginning or end.

3. With an upper case 'M', Mind always was and always will be - beyond any initial creation.

Mind projects all things in a way analogous to a fantastic virtual reality(VR)'hologram' in which small 'm' limited minds participate in the ongoing creation of that VR 'hologram'. Humans are only one sub-set of 'm'inds from a vast set who interact without knowing that all is just One Mind interacting within Itself boundariless and eternal.

Death like everything else is little 'm'ind continuing to change, albeit in a radical way.

Infinite 'M'ind is not analogous to any image of a God of any kind whatsoever.

'M'ind has no self reference whatsoever - only the deluded, self-perceiving 'm'ind is so self-referenced and 'ego' encased.

4. Whatever else one can imagine.

Having started with an initial ASSUMPTION of what is and what caused it if anything, and it is only an assumption, then one can go from there logically reconciling all that one sees in the universe with that initial assumption. If one cannot reconcile one's initial assumption with that which one sees then one must go back and look at the validity of the initial premise(1-4 above)!

The question then becomes does God exist at all or at least in the form that I envisage Him to be?

Maybe my initial premise needs to change?

January 30, 2006
9:49 pm
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Hi Guest,

{Why? because of my depression and low self-esteem. I wanted to find out why I was like that.}

We have something in common. I suffered from depression and low self-esteem all my life. I seem to have licked the depression just within the past four months, but still struggle with the self-esteem.

{I found my parenting was nowwhere near ideal, which my mom had always told us it was.}

Okay, your parents weren't ideal. Few are; mine weren't; and I certainly haven't been the ideal father to my children. We all make mistakes. What does that have to do with God? Your mother, your father, God -- three seperate individuals.

{That was changing of one belief in me and that led to me questioning God and asking him questions in anger, as to why he put me in such a sad life and that}

Just a thought -- perhaps depression is a special challenge you were supposed to struggle with. We all have our individual trials -- maybe that's one of yours. Again, it's just a thought; I'm not saying it's necessarily true.

{he would have to be the one to get me out of it or else I'd commit suicide.}

I've expressed intense anger at God to God many times. I don't think he minds one bit. Let me also ask: Is there any steps you could take to get yourself out of it? God might help you if you do.

{... whether or not God exists, what effect does that have on my current life? To me, there's no effect. yes, its sometimes extremely sad to believe that this life is all there is, our loved ones will never meet me again and I'll never be alive again, but thats what it looks like.}

Guest, do you want to believe this? You've known God before -- assuming he's still real, do you think he can help you with this? I'd be glad to work with you on this, if you'd like.

God's there; he's real; I'd be nothing without him (actually, I'm nothing even with him ... lol). I can't prove this logically. All I can do is appeal to a hope you might still have that what I say just might be true.

{If you have $100 and you're told this is the only chance you'll get to spend money, you'll spend it much more carefully than in the following situation:

You are given $100 and told, you'll be given more money later on.}

Good analogy. Let me modify it slightly: What if you were given $100, and told you'd be given more later IF YOU MANAGED IT WISELY? How would this change the equation?

Take care, Guest.

Seeker

January 30, 2006
9:51 pm
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eve,

Thank you for your suggestion. If I get some time, I'll look up Thomas von Aquin. Maybe I'll get some fresh ideas from him.

Take care, Seeker

January 30, 2006
10:00 pm
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Kathy,

It's good to talk to you again. It's been a while.

{"I could point out that this world is so intricate ... Certainly there has to be a designer for all this."

I believe that chemical reactions started life on planet earth. ...

just because man can reason and so can many animals including cats is no prove of god. ...

I believe that evolution is the explanation.}

Thank you. You proved my point. I cannot prove God logically to you or anybody else.

I could point out that there are some what-I-think-are fallacies in evolutionary thinking, but I don't want to get into that. We could endlessly debate evolution vs. creation, but in the end, it would prove nothing, nobody would be convinced, and it would all be invain.

In the end, it's God's job to prove his own existence to each of us individually. But he needs for us to want him to do this.

Take care, Kathy.

Seeker

January 30, 2006
10:12 pm
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Tez,

{Hope springs eternal my friend. But hope does not form a good basis for having a good 'crap detector' - the reasoning intellect does.}

I propose that just as hope has its limits, so does the reasoning intellect. The latter cannot know everything. I'll get more into this later; I can't do so now.

{Unfortunately as children ... many of us simply adopted our second hand beliefs directly from our parents and earliest indoctrinators.

Thus as adults, ... we tend to continue to inbibe religious dogma related to our childhood beliefs unquestioningly. }

Ah, but I was not raised with any religion. I didn't become Christian till I was 19, and only then after a year long, hard fought battle in which I became an atheist and anti-Christian for a period of time.

I won my religious beliefs through hard knocks. I questioned everything. I accepted nothing at face value. God answered many of my prayers. Whatever I say about religion, I know for myself.

January 30, 2006
10:25 pm
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Tez,

{Open minded, interested and very intrinsically secure believers examine the logic of their beliefs without being consumed by fear. ...
Which are you Seekerw?}

I'm pretty open minded. I'm a lifelong learner. I associate with Christians of other denominations, Jews, New Agers, pagans, Wiccans, Hare Krishnas, and so forth. I ask them about their beliefs and share my own with them if they ask. If I knew more Buddhists, I'd associate with them, too.

There's something you don't understand about me. God has spoken to my spirit many times. I can't be shaken. I have no reason to fear any questions or anything. Sometimes I get caught up with trying to prove God to people, but I shouldn't do that and I stop myself when I became aware I'm doing it. If anything, others tend to become uncomfortable with what I have to say about religion.

Seeker

January 30, 2006
10:31 pm
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Tez,

{The question then becomes does God exist at all or at least in the form that I envisage Him to be?

Maybe my initial premise needs to change? }

That's a question to ask God, not me. I can't prove his existence logically, but he can prove his own existence to you.

I'll answer the rest of your questions later. I've run out of time now.

Take care, Seeker

January 31, 2006
5:32 pm
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hi Seeker, yes, I knew that analogy could be changed around and the tables turned :D. But anyway.. I will reture from debate here because I see you're busy also with others, dont want to make you more busy. Also I'm sometimes tired of this debate.. I've done it before many times :(. Anyway, you be happy in whatever makes you happy and I hope I do the same. I might come around to the post later if I feel like it but right now I'm off from work and terribly hungry so you can imagine. ah.

January 31, 2006
5:41 pm
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seekerw

On the 30-Jan-06 you said:

"God has spoken to my spirit many times. I can't be shaken."

I don't doubt that you experienced 'being spoken to'. I would just question who it is doing the speaking.

I have no doubt that George Bush hears what he thinks is 'god' speaking to him also. So he bloody well attacks Iraq and justifies it by the lie about weapons of mass destruction that don't exist. Then he turns around and says 'Oh well...Saddam Hussein was a bad man anyway!'. That is the danger of imagining that one has a direct line to some imagined god. I am hold the strong suspicion that Bush sees himself as a new King Richard the Lionheart in a holy war against the Saracens in preserving the middle east for the JudeoChristian folks of the world and for his Christian God.

That the mind hears a voice, I have little doubt. I would think that most humans would agree that this voice exists. But just who or what that voice is is a whole new question. Assuming that it is your Christian God straight out of the pages of the Bible is a hugh leap in faith not logic.

If you were born in India you would in all probability attribute that voice to Bramha, Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesh or some other God of the Hindi Pantheon.

If you were born into a Buddhist culture you would in all probability attribute the inner voice to either your own mind or to the Tathagata.

I'm not trying to shake your faith. But those like you of any faith who assume that they have absolute truth about who it is that is speaking to them in their head, frighten the shit out of me - especially if they gain great power such as your Georgy boy has done.

Terrorism is more of the same deluded mind games, simply of a different color but just as potentially dangerous!

The amazing thing is that the founders of both Christianity and Islam were preachers of peace and love not war and hate - a fact that seems to have eluded many of their followers.

February 1, 2006
10:29 pm
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Tez,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. You said:

{But those like you of any faith who assume that they have absolute truth about who it is that is speaking to them in their head, frighten the shit out of me - especially if they gain great power such as your Georgy boy has done.}

First, why do you assume he's "my" Georgy boy? There are things he's done that I strongly disagree with.

Second, I assure you you have no reason to fear me. The voice that speaks to my spirit at times (and it's not an audible voice) leads me to follow the Golden Rule, be kind, treat everybody like my spiritual brother or sister, be humble, be gracious, and so forth.

Talking about this voice makes me sound like a mystic or a psycho, but I'm neither. I'm just a humble person who speaks to God and hears answers to prayers from time to time.

{Terrorism is more of the same deluded mind games,}

Terrorism is based on hate. My voice is not. Huge difference.

{The amazing thing is that the founders of both Christianity and Islam were preachers of peace and love not war and hate }

Didn't Mohammed wipe out at least one entire town? I might be wrong on this.

{I am hold the strong suspicion that Bush sees himself as a new King Richard the Lionheart in a holy war against the Saracens ...}

It could look like this, that's true.

{If you were born in India you would in all probability attribute that voice to Bramha, Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesh or some other God of the Hindi Pantheon.

If you were born into a Buddhist culture you would in all probability attribute the inner voice to either your own mind or to the Tathagata.}

Seeing that I wasn't, this must remain a moot question, one that I cannot convincingly answer. I don't think I would -- the scriptures of other religions that I've read parts of (the Bhugavd (sp?) Gita and Koran) don't read the same as the Bible. They don't hit me in the same way.

But I don't think this would convince you.

Seeker

February 1, 2006
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Guest,

I understand your sentiments. Take care and hope to see you again before too long.

Seeker

February 2, 2006
6:25 pm
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Seekerw.

Its great to read your posts.

On the 1-Feb-06 you said:

"First, why do you assume he's "my" Georgy boy? There are things he's done that I strongly disagree with."

Aren't you an American and a Christian? I was implying that Bush holds both his Christian beliefs and his nationality in common with you.

And you said:

"I'm just a humble person who speaks to God and hears answers to prayers from time to time."

How can you categorically believe without any doubt that you are hearing answers from your God? This absolute certainty doesn't fit well with my concept of humility.

In my view a humble - and therefore open-minded - person speaks in terms of possibilities and probabilities rather than absolute certainties. For example, a humble person might say, "It is possibly God speaking to me. On the other hand, it might be my deep unconscious generating answers based on the wisdom of the 'wise old man' or 'wise old woman' in all of us." - i.e. that wise part of our collective unconscious that knows what is best for us.

And you said:

"I've read parts of (the Bhugavd (sp?) Gita and Koran) don't read the same as the Bible. They don't hit me in the same way."

This is my point exactly. The bible does "hit" you as being true exactly because of your past indoctrination and preconditioning that you have already undergone.

If you apply simple logic to the fundamental attributes of your God, you will clearly see that there is a complete lack of congruence between these attributes and the characteristices of his consequent creation.

The "free will" argument holds no water in this regard. How free is a wild animal to not predate upon his only means of life support? How free is a psychopath to choose love rather than hate??? Zilch freedom of choice - the exemplars are legion.

February 2, 2006
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Tez,

{"First, why do you assume he's "my" Georgy boy? There are things he's done that I strongly disagree with."

Aren't you an American and a Christian? I was implying that Bush holds both his Christian beliefs and his nationality in common with you.}

While there's only one USA, there are plenty of Christian beliefs. I don't subscribe to all of them. I also don't agree with all of what Bush does politically, though I consider myself a conservative (big surprise, no?).

{And you said:

"I'm just a humble person who speaks to God and hears answers to prayers from time to time."

How can you categorically believe without any doubt that you are hearing answers from your God?}

When it comes to most things, I'm not overly self-confident. I generally don't trust that I know very much on most matters -- I'm well aware that many people know better than I do on most, if not all, subjects. I speak in terms of "I believe this" or "I think that" constantly.

But when it comes to God, well, if God is real, then he really can talk to us, and he really can prove to us that it is he, and not our subconscious or any other entity, talking to us. This I know for an absolute certainty.

{And you said:

"I've read parts of (the Bhugavd (sp?) Gita and Koran) don't read the same as the Bible. They don't hit me in the same way."

This is my point exactly. The bible does "hit" you as being true exactly because of your past indoctrination and preconditioning that you have already undergone.}

I didn't grow up indoctrinated in any religion. I read a little of the Bible on my own as a child, and even then, those parts affected me profoundly, though I wouldn't become a Christian until years later.

I did not feel the same effect when I read the other scriptures.

{The "free will" argument holds no water in this regard.}

"Free will" is relative. Nobody has absolute freedom of choice, hence, there's no absolute free will. But we are free to choose some things about our lives, if only a tiny part. I read Victor Frankl's book relating his experience in a WWII concentration camp. He had very little real freedom, but he did have one freedom that nobody could ever take away -- the power to choose his attitude, to choose how he would react to things that happened to him. He had free will even in prison.

Seeker

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