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Tez-I have more weird questions
May 15, 2007
7:04 pm
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BevDee.

You wrote:

"Ah- I wish there was just one day I could turn some of it off - in my head."

That day will arrive if you persist. But to do that one has to have one very important ability. That ability is to control one's own mind.

How do you do that? First you have to know your own mind! That is the process you are presently going through; a journey of self-discovery through reflection, contemplation, therapy etc wherein you are focussing in upon your life, past and present in relation to your beliefs, cognitions and emotions.

And you said:

" What a day to watch that movie- on Mothers Day. While no contact is easier, it is becoming less easy to vilify. To shut the door on my feelings by casting blame. I am still finding my way in this abyss of my feelings."

What you wrote here is a very definite sign of great progress!

And you wrote:

"I feel compassion for those who are toxic to me, and because I do, my first inclination is to reach out to them."

Ahhhhhhh - one of your 'wings' is starting to unfold beautifully - the 'wing' of compassion.

"I believe that would be a mistake for me at this time. It might be easier to cast blame, but the anger that goes along with it is getting too tiring to carry around anymore."

Ahhhhhh - there is the second wing also starting to unfold beautifully too - the 'wing' of wisdom.

Wisdom without compassion and compassion without wisdom are both dangerous attributes that put us in harm's way. A balance of both will ensure lift off.

Once both 'wings' are fully developed we both will fly and soar and our ears will be filled with the music of the spheres.

But I'm not the originator of such truths. I'm just the regurgitating messenger who is trying to consolidate them into my own life on a daily basis.

But even though you and I are not 'there' yet by any means, we are by far better off that those who still think that if only the world would behave the way they want it to then happiness would be theirs for the taking.

May 16, 2007
8:49 am
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bevdee
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Tez

Thank you. It helps to get this feedback, because some days I don't think there's any progress. It feels like I am just dog-paddling in the abyss.

Thank you.

May 16, 2007
7:18 pm
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BevDee.

You said:

"It feels like I am just dog-paddling in the abyss."

It seems to me that of all the choices we have in this world, they can all be categorized under one of two headings. The two categories of choices are:

1. Choices that we make that we believe will further our welfare, happiness, contentment etc and that will avoid pain, suffering, discontent, unhapiness etc.

2. The choice of whether or not to give up on making any of the choices under heading 1 altogether in preference for the universal set of choices unrelated to the welfare of our self altogether.

It all comes down to whether we have one particular belief or not.

What is that belief? It is the belief that somewhere, somehow there is a way that can be found that will ensure that choice category 1 above is a valid category of choices that will lead to the goals implied therein.

The pursuit of education, money, fame and fortune, great sex, wonderful partners, worldly possessions etc are our best efforts at finding the "somehow" that seems to repeatedly and ultimately fail the possessors of such means to attain the goals of Choice 1 category above.

Spiritual means that are self directed, also seem to fail us. 'God bothering' is one such means. It all seems to get back to our attitude to this 'thing' we call 'self'.

What is this 'self'?

I saw an archaeologist dig up a 1500 year old female 'self' on the TV last night. She was approximately 30 years old when she was unceremoniously hurled into her grave. From the decapitated remains of other 'selves' it appears a massacre took place.

What is it that we are trying to preserve and enhance in our endeavours to "dogpaddle" our way out of the "abyss"? A biological process that is bound to cease at one point in time or another? Our image of who it is we think we are?

Ponder these questions at depth and 'who it is that we think we are' will be exposed to us until we reach the stage wherein we realise that:

* there is no "abyss" to paddle away from

* nor is the image 'of who it is that we think we are' the one doing the "paddling".

Then we both might be free to consider making the choices in choice category 2 above. I live in hope!

May 21, 2007
8:41 pm
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Bevdee,

I feel your pain. Been there. And I have to disagree with Tez when he wrote:

"1. Choices that we make that we believe will further our welfare, happiness, contentment etc and that will avoid pain, suffering, discontent, unhapiness etc."

For me, choosing to remove myself from my mother's life, from her control and her verbal abuse didnt make the pain BETTER, it made the pain DIFFERENT.

There was no avoiding the pain, even though it was a choice that I had made, a choice that did further my mental health, eventually (emphasis on EVENTUSLLY).

Every day when she was not begging me to come back, was not apologizing for a whole childhood of abuse, or was not offering to do anything it took to get me back into her life, including counseling or taking responsibility for her actions or getting help for herself, she was rejecting me. It was just in a different form as well.

Before I announced that I needed time and space, she was rejecting me in her own way and on her own time table. When I would ask to come visit, she would tell me when I could visit, which was appropriate, but then she would close herself up in her room while I was there, while at the same time offering me to "make myself at home" with the tv and the food. or qwhen I would show up at the designated time, she would have her boyfriend over, who she knew I hated- (yes I did say HATE).

But when I announced that I needed time and space, I was taking back the POWER,(although it didnt feel like POWER), power for her to reject me, not on her time table, but on mine.

So, staying away from mom gave me the opportunity to take back some control and power, but it also provided my mother with a way to continue to reject me, but in a different way than she had been before. She made her choice clear... she was willing to loose me forever instead of admitting her own issues and getting help. Ouch, that hurt.

And although I was no longer subjected to her verbal attacks or zingers, I was still hurting just as deeply as I had before.

Would I do it all over again? Yea, I think so. But I dont think I would stay away as long as I did-4yrs., which was pretty easy to do since I live 150 miles away.

I think the time away from her gave me the opportunity to develope my self esteem and learn appropriate ways of redirecting her when she would call me names or put me down. I spent all of that time in therapy on a weekly basis, working on my assertiveness skills so that I could appropriatly stand up for myself and be ok with standing up for myself (it feels weird telling your mom NO or to not talk to you that way).

It just kept getting easier and easier to stay away from her, and the more I stayed away the more afraid I became, of seeing her again. So 4 yrs went by and then I was faced with a reason to go back to Indpls, (although I can't for the life of me remember what that reason was). All I remember was sobbing in my therapists office bc I had to go back home. It was the first time he had ever seen me cry. My emotions were thawing at long last. Ahh progress.

So Bevdee, for me it was a very painful but beneficial and growing process. I wouldnt go back to those early days for any amount of money in the world.

I'll close with one of my favorite poems. Take our hand Bevdee, together we'll get ya to the other side.

Good luck on your journey,
thewall
***************************
The Stepping Stones

Come, take my hand,
The road is long.
And we must
Travel by stepping stones.

No, you're not alone
I'll go with you
I know the road well
I've been there.

Dont fear the darkness,
I'll be with you.
We must take one step at a time.
But remember, we have to stop awhile.

It is a long way to the other side
And there are many obstacles.
We have many stones to cross,
And some are bigger than others.

Shock, denial and anger to start.
Then comes guilt, despair and lonliness.
Its a hard road to travel,
but it must be done.
Its the only way to reach the other side.

Come, slip your hand in mine
What? Oh, yes
It is strong.
I've held many hands like yours.

Mine was once small and weak, like yours,
Because you see,
Once I had to hold someone else's hand
In order to take the first step.

Ooops, you stumbled
Go ahead and cry.
Don't be ashamed, I understand.
Lets wait here awhile and get your breath.
When your stronger we'll go on....
One step at a time
There's no need to hurry.
Hey! It's nice to hear you laugh.

Yes I agree,
The memories you shared are good.
Look! We're halfway there now
I can see the other side
It looks so warm and sunny.

Have you noticed?!
We're nearing the last stone
And you're standing alone
And look at your hand.....
You've let go of mine.
WE'VE REACHED THE OTHER SIDE!

But wait, look back,
Someone is standing there.
He is alone and wants to cross the stepping stones.
I'd better go
He needs my help.

What? Are you sure?
Why yes, go ahead, I'll wait.
You know the way
You've been there.

Yes I agree,
Its your turn, my friend
To help someone else
Cross the stepping stones.

May 22, 2007
12:28 am
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bevdee
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Tez and Wall, I took this - "1. Choices that we make that we believe will further our welfare, happiness, contentment etc and that will avoid pain, suffering, discontent, unhapiness etc." to mean choices such as jobs I might accept, cars I might drive, the education I might seek or obtain. The god I could choose to worship and the religion I choose to embrace.

But - I can't envision that I could choose not to make any of those choices.

May 22, 2007
1:50 am
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Tez

Abyss? I shouldn't have left it there. I should have said abyss of my emotions. Emotion that I sometimes fight. Fight- see, I started to say emotion I don't know what to do with.

I suppose I am still thinking I need to do something with the emotion. Sometimes I feel sad, and I am afraid of that sadness. I wish I could learn how to just feel sad, and be ok with that. I want to learn to accept the emotion and just feel it- I believe that fighting the emotion is what makes us sick- physically or mentally.

More about me of course - 🙂 Now- I worked my last day at the old job Friday. I started the new job Saturday night, and worked Sunday night. Now I have the coming week looming in front of me. After I got home this morning, I slept for a little while, then drove to the lake to find the water was too cold for swimming. When I got back to the house, my Casinoman was here. We only talked for a while- with him claiming he only wanted to check on me. But he has never checked on me- especially since I moved over here. He helped me move next door well over a year ago, and I was surprised that he remembered how to get here - this far off the highway. During our conversation, he asked me a couple of times if I wanted to "get together sometime" and each time I told him that I was seeing someone, and I wasn't interested in taking up with him again.

He has been trying to reach me by cell phone, email and messenger for a couple of weeks now, but this time I haven't responded in any way. I am assuming this is why he decided to show up in person. I kept thinking how relieved I was that Niceman wasn't with me when C-man showed up. I've never told him about my relationship with C-man, and I don’t want to.

Three hours later, he was back. I didn't hear him pull up in the drive and the dog didn't even bark, so I just answered the door, thinking one of the neighbors had walked over. When I saw it was him, I stepped out on the screened porch, because I wasn't about to let him inside the house. He started kissing me and I didn't pull away. I kissed him back and it was really good. I couldn't say how long that kissing went on, his hands were all over my body, and if my neighbor hadn't pulled up in her golf cart in front of the house when she did, I might have done him right there on the dark porch. Tonight, for the first time ever I am appreciative of her nosiness. Her meddlesome- ness.

I'm embarrassed that I let myself kiss and be kissed by him. I'm embarrassed that after my friend pulled up and hollered- "hey *C-man*, what you been up to?", he whispered in my ear * You sure you don’t wanna take up with me again?*, before he let go of me. I'm embarrassed that my friend saw me. I'm mortified that I still want him, that just his touching me or my touching him can set of my arousal to such a pigf**kin pitch. Still. I seemingly have no control, and I have tried to convince myself (and him) otherwise. I'm embarrassed that my body told him differently than my words did.

I’m a liar about that and I hate that he knows it!!

Now that my body has calmed down a little, I am thinking that maybe I’m all hung up on that image of my self I so wanted to believe and that I wanted to project- I'm sitting here pondering that. I really wanted him to perceive this image - of a happy, independent of him, strong beautiful sexy woman-that-doesn't-want him. Whose touch does not excite me. I want to perceive and believe that image!! I just don't want to be faced with the choice again. I didn't even make any choice, because my friend showed up. That golf cart might not show up if there is a next time.

So- how have you been?

May 23, 2007
7:47 pm
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Bevdee
22-May-07

You wrote:

"I'm embarrassed that I let myself kiss and be kissed by him. I'm embarrassed that after my friend pulled up and hollered- "hey *C-man*, what you been up to?", he whispered in my ear * You sure you don’t wanna take up with me again?*, before he let go of me. I'm embarrassed that my friend saw me. I'm mortified that I still want him, that just his touching me or my touching him can set of my arousal to such a pigf**kin pitch. Still. I seemingly have no control, and I have tried to convince myself (and him) otherwise. I'm embarrassed that my body told him differently than my words did."

This is a great and powerful experience that just beams in on the very essence of all our emotional difficulties. The great illusion in all this is 'that you really love Casinoman'. That is why you "seemingly have no control".

This key phrase of yours below sums it all up.

"Still. I seemingly have no control, and I have tried to convince myself (and him) otherwise."

Our powerful 'emotional self' is like a very muscle bound, dull witted, 7' high big momma of a captain who effortlessly brushes aside the puny 5' high, intelligent captain when the puny captain tries to steer the ship away from a reef.

After the event, our 'cognitive self' says "What da f..k was I thinking????". The 'cognitive self', the puny captain, is confused, not understanding why she has so little power and control over her 'big momma captain emotions'. Why can't the 'puny captain', the thinking self, brush aside the 'big momma captain', the emotions, just as easily as when the reverse happens?

That's how it is ... isn't it?

The Casinoman 'intuitively' knows that he has what you want!!!!

But what is it that Casinoman really has???? A 10 inch dick? I doubt that is what he has that so easily disempowers you!

That question is the key that will unlock the access door to your power box that will allow you, the puny captain, to throw the breaker switch to off therein disempowering the big momma captain!!

If Ms. Sneaky did what Casinoman did to you, I would be just as powerless to resist her as you were to resist Casinoman. Given half a chance, she would come on to me just like that!! And in your situation I also would have been in bed humping before I knew it.

Do you remember Guest-guest, in the depths of his ignorance, ridiculing me last time I wrote that?

At the dance last Saturday night, when the singer in the dance band was singing a love song, she caught my eye at an opportune time when both Joy's and her fiance's backs were 'turned' as it were. She started mouthing some words at me with a very seductive look on her face. I instantly looked away and danced past her as if I hadn't seen her. It's so important to me for my peace of mind to maintain this brick wall between us. Now you can very clearly see why.

Now your unconscious mind will go to work trying to undermine your most determined efforts to avoid casinoman.

Catch you later, you foxy lady.

May 24, 2007
10:54 pm
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Tez

It's always good to hear from you.

For the record- - "But what is it that Casinoman really has???? A 10 inch dick? I doubt that is what he has that so easily disempowers you!"
10 inches? Ow. Cha. Puhleeze- I am only 5'3"- a short woman who has never had kids. Ha. And I never measured. He has a very noteworthy tongue, though. I could wax eloquent here, but that's not going to do me any good.

In the last couple of weeks, I have finally been able to acknowledge some anger I have at my daddy. When I do this introspection I feel raw. Kind of bruised. I have seen a pattern with me and the Casinoman and my raw emotions- my wounded heart. When I feel raw - I dream about him, and he usually tries to contact me that night or the next day.

Well, you were right about this -

"Now your unconscious mind will go to work trying to undermine your most determined efforts to avoid casinoman." because-

Last evening, before the sun went down - my neighbor friend and I went swimming for about an hour. When we got back, the nosy neighbor across the road told me that "that same guy- not ya boyfriend -was here again looking for you." Lord- those people see everything.

I usually turn my messenger on at 9 in the evening- so I can talk to my neighbor friend's kid (He lives with his daddy about a hundred miles from here and gets lonely when daddy goes out). When I turned it on last night there was a stored message from C-man- from about 2:30 in the morning. Right about the time I had awakened from a dream about him. I swear, sometimes I think this man has hacked into my mind. He's fucking with my illusion.

In his offline message he said he missed me. He apologized for coming to the house the other night but because he had been dreaming of me in the last week, he wanted proof that I still felt the same way as he did. He also said he has never been able to figure out why I just abruptly ended our relationship and he can't stop thinking about me.

I got out of stealth mode and indicated to him I was online. I asked him why he wouldn't stop thinking about me.

He told me that he had never had felt so comfortable with another woman in bed - because there was never any hesitation between us - even the first time. He said he loved that I laugh even in bed. (He also told me all the other things he loves but I won't go into detail) He said he missed me because out of bed or after sex, we were able to talk about anything and laugh at the same weird shit. That I had understood his concerns for his sons and he had always appreciated that I never forced that issue. I asked him what it was that he was wanting - just sex again? The booty call?

He told me that he never felt he had anything to offer me because he doesn't make much money, and when we were seeing each other, he was in the middle of filing bankruptcy. (I never knew this) That he couldn't afford to take me to dinner or places that he wanted to take me and because he knew how much money I make, it made him feel like shit. That he was too embarrassed to ask me to the house because his crack-head brother and sister-in-law were living in the other house that sat on his property.

I believe him about the money because of comments he made and I know of the lady he dated last fall, (who he met through his sister) and I know that she had a min wage job and he made more money than she did. I asked him if it would help him to know that now I was making a little more money, but working half the hours and he answered -"maybe". I knew about the brother- that was a scandal usually involving the sheriff every weekend, I heard about the stuff that went on there. Out of respect for him, I never asked him about it.

I asked him why he was telling me all this now and he answered that he had never stopped thinking about me. That when he was with the other lady, he thought of me when they had sex, and now that he is single he thinks of me when he gratifies himself and because he knows I don't love the guy I am seeing!

I broke a date with my Niceman tonight. I made up this lame excuse to break the date so I could sit home and pout and cry and scream. He can usually tell if something is bothering me- and if he asks me, I can't tell him this truth.

And - I said this a long time ago - I don't feel it is fair to have him riding someone else's wave. I'm a mess. It has been almost two years since Casinoman touched me- kissed me. Even three days later, I can't believe the reaction of my body. Everything is just inflamed or engorged, and if I were a man in this condition, I doubt I could pull a wallet out of the back pocket of my jeans. This is much worse than when we were seeing each other. I was aroused all the time, but I did get some satisfaction, then.

I have been like this for 3 days now. Today, finally, because I just couldn't stand it anymore, I decided to *take matters into my own hands* This is tough to say - I'm groping for words here. Here goes - Since I first met Casinoman, I think of him when I masturbate. I have tried to think of Niceman, but I don't orgasm as fiercely as when I think of C-man. Because I always think of him when I am doing this, I just don't do it too often. This time when I climaxed, I had this thought- *I love you Kenny* and tears came out of my eyes. Have you ever heard the saying about someone telling you they love you? - "it doesn't count if s/he’s coming?" Hmm. I laid there and cried for a while afterward. I have had tears come to my eyes during sex with him before, but never when I was only masturbating.

I don't know why I cry like that. Maybe this time, I cried afterward because I still want him. Maybe? I'm so vexed by this! I want to believe the things he told me, and some of the things he told me are exactly as I suspected - mainly to do with his pride. And a sense of shame. But- I really don't trust this. He is a kind gentle man, not vindictive or manipulative, it's just that I don't trust him not to back away from me again. It's his self-esteem that prevented him from coming any closer to me than sex. And it's my self-esteem that prevented me from offering much more of myself than my sex. However- this knowledge is not making this week's events any easier. Not at all.

And to date? Since last night? He has been more honest than I have, because I never let my guard down last night. I was snotty and cold. I merely corrected him when he told me I didn't love Niceman.

I just feel so powerless because as I stated before- not only do I feel that with him, I have no control over my body- I feel like he's hacking into my mind. I'm very angry that he came over Monday the way he did. Maybe he knows this and maybe he doesn't, but because of the effort I have put into keeping him out of my mind, into not obsessing about him? His grabbing me and kissing me felt like an assault on my mind. Not my body. My body loved it. And I just hate that I responded. Oh shit. That's vaguely familiar, but I can't think about it right now.

Thanks for being honest and saying this - *And in your situation I also would have been in bed humping before I knew it.* My friend's nosiness saved me. I would have done it. Every way I know how and for a very long time.

Talk to you later.

May 25, 2007
10:52 pm
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bevdee
24-May-07.

Hmmmm! All I can say is that I understand how things are for you at the moment in fact probably much more than than you realize.

You are in very dangerous territory, my girl, and well and truly in harm's way.

This smells like an addiction to a person to me - albeit very well disguised.

I have been severely burnt by such an addiction twice. It took two addictive relationships to make me much more wary of my own ability to undermine my own best interests.

IMHO, you are presently on a 'binge'. You sound to me like you are feeding your addiction. The worst part is that it feels sooooooooo good doesn't it? The grass is green and the sky blue again.

The big trap here might be that your emotions are bullshitting you into believing that you 'love' Casinoman. My evidence for thinking this: "This time when I climaxed, I had this thought- *I love you Kenny* and tears came out of my eyes."

Your hormones are racing, and you are on a high at the thought that Casinoman still 'loves' and hungers for you. Isn't that true? He did tell you: "now that he is single he thinks of me when he gratifies himself...". That must mean that he loves you, mustn't it?

Now comes the brutal part:

You will never make sense out of non-sense. Trying to reason with yourself when your hormones have you in such a state of arousal is like trying to reason with a heroine addict when he or she is on a 'high'.

Besides your undermining emotions will probably demand that your presently enslaved thinking justify your luxuriating in this fantasy 'affair' by tell you that it is harmless, or that your Casinoman's 'love' for you justifies it.

You will probably even tell yourself that the damage caused by heroine cannot be compared to the miniscule risks that a 'romp in the cot' with casinoman will do.

Let me list the damage that I can see looming on the horizon for you.

1.0 Your mind is likely to engineer the breakup with Niceman. This is my slim evidence that this has already started - you said: "I don't feel it is fair to have him riding someone else's wave." This is indeed a 'noble' motive justifying clearing one big obstruction to getting back with Casinoman. Remember, Mr. Niceman may not come back again after being given his marching orders and finding out of your getting together with Casinoman.

2. If you get back with Casinoman, your head is going to be messed up far worse than it is now. It could well cost you your new job! In the first of my addictions to a person(Ms. Stinky), I've blanked out in front of a class of 38 adult students when teaching a high level maths subject thanks to such a fucked up head. Because of Ms. Stinky and my addiction to her, I didn't know whether I was 'Arthur or Martha'! Nothing in the world mattered at the time but her. I just kept my job by the skin of my teeth.

3. The ex-husband of my addiction #1, (Ms. Stinky) killed himself in the depths of his despair caused by her push-pull game playing with him!! While with me, she gloated over his suicide note, observing how much he must have loved her to kill himself for her. How fucking sick is that!! I was very close to doing the same thing and pulling the pin on my life. Only a huge amount of work on myself, with the help of others enabled me to bootstrap myself back to some form of sanity.

To summarize, despite what you probably think is my over dramatization and exaggeration of your present predicament, you have your job, your mental health, and even your life at stake here. That's the strong impression that I am getting from all that you have written on this thread to date.

I am giving you what I believe is the painful truth as I see it. I am not on some ego trip. I am genuinely concerned for you. I think every inch of your 5' 3" is worth much more than what I think Casinoman has in mind for you - even though it might be exhiliarating for you in the beginning.

I'm not saying that I think Mr. Casinoman is a rogue! Not at all. But I doubt that he has any idea of what he is fucking around with here.

I'll finish off with this: Love does not enter into the equation as far as you and Casinoman are concerned. It is most probably unbridled passion based upon very powerful and dangerous childhood engendered emotional drives. But there could be a price tag that might be much higher than you think.

If you feel angry at me right now for writing all this, please don't shoot the messenger.

May 25, 2007
11:27 pm
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Tez

I don't want to shoot you. I need advice because when I cried at climax, it really scared me. I have thought before that I love him, but I have never told him because I knew that would be a mistake.

I have done so well to stay away from him. The longer I stay away, the better I am. I hate to think I have any more addictions. The caffeine and cigarettes are bad enough. But you are right about this- "Your mind is likely to engineer the breakup with Niceman." I did sit down and weigh out the pros and cons. Niceman won. I just don't want to short change him because he is a great guy.

I want to talk about this stuff to my therapist, but we are just getting started, and she seems so timid, and I am getting the impression that she just doesn't know what to think of me. That I startle her. I had an appointment today, and I left there feeling very unfulfilled, too.

Thank you for this "I think every inch of your 5' 3" is worth much more than what I think Casinoman has in mind for you".

May 29, 2007
3:25 am
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Bevdee

On the 25-May-07 you said:

"I need advice ...

Oh, giving advice to others is easy for me. However, following the same advice myself is far from easy.

Ms. Sneaky hasn't been looking too good for some time now. On Sunday night last, at the dance she confessed to my buddy, that she is in a lot of pain but didn't elaborate any further. She looks very troubled and forlorn. My buddy said that he felt very sorry for her and wished that he could do something to help her.

I have to watch myself!!!! I can see my unconscious mind engineering the situation wherein I might end up in the cot with her. So it's all stations on a Code Red for me!

And you added:

"... because when I cried at climax, it really scared me"

Do you know why you cried?

Was it out of joy, sorrow, pleasure or pain or a mixture of these?

My guess - and that is all it is - is that you were grieving not having Casinoman to both share and heighten your orgasmic experience. This might have made you feel very alone and unloved.

What do you think is the reason why you cried?

May 29, 2007
4:07 pm
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Tez

I'm happy to hear from you! I want to thank you again for your honest post of 5-25-07. It felt like ice water in my face when I read it, and I spent a nearly sleepless night thinking about everything you said in your post, but it helped me get my perspective back.

I've spent quite a bit of time since reading that post remembering why I stopped seeing him. It was my choice, and I chose to because I felt so BAD when I wasn't with him, and when I felt rejected by him. That's no way to live, and I knew it at the time. The hormones and the rush in the time in between are the fooler.

I thought about when I started this thread, when the dreams started - and it started after Xmas, after the big blowout at my family holiday. I have done a real good job at distancing myself from my mother and sister since then, but I can't seem to do without something, you know? I seem to have switched obsessions or addictions.

I met him a little over 3 years ago- not long after I re-established contact with my mother- after 3 years of not speaking with her at all, we started planning an intervention to help my sister. That fell through but we kept talking- mostly about my sister.

As I have let the truth of what you said to me sink in, I have also spent some time being angry with myself for knowing better, but I have been able to pull myself short of mentally beating up on myself. I did have some problems at my job a few months after I met C-man. I had trouble concentrating, and made some mistakes, but fortunately I was able to explain it away by telling the director my sugar levels were vascillating. This was true, but it was because I was obsessing about him (the adrenaline and the effect it has on my sugar). So- you hit a nerve when you said "2. If you get back with Casinoman, your head is going to be messed up far worse than it is now. It could well cost you your new job! "

I have changed my email addy and my messenger addy, I blocked his # from both phones- so I am not tempted to hear his voice, voicemails, or see his IM messages. I'm not sure what I will do if he comes to the house again- but I do know that if he does, I won't step out on the porch again. I started a draft to send his email, before I closed out my old addy, but decided against it. Thinking I owed him some explanation, I wanted to tell him why I did not want any further contact with him, but I don't see any point in it. He would probably misunderstand or misinterpret it. Being around him or having any kind of contact with him is toxic to me, and it really isn't any of his doing. It just is the way it is.

As for Niceman. I don't want to break it off with him. When I think about being given marching papers?? About not seeing him again? I feel really sad. I like him.. And you said something about a noble motive? That really stung :O, because while I do like to think of myself as honorable, maybe my intentions aren't so noble. Maybe not so altruistic. Maybe selfish, but also self-defeating. I'm still thinking on that - and it may be more convoluted than you imagine. Or maybe not.

I sincerely don't want to go to him or be with him - make a commitment to him, (even an unspoken one) with the thought that I love someone else - because I don't obsess about him.

Because he likes me, and does not hold himself aloof from me, or smother me with need or suspicion as other men have done in the past. (he doesn't bug me). This is the notion of love is what I have been struggling to discard. I can talk myself out of a healthy relationship with a man that likes and respects me, is intelligent, has a great job, and no outlandish expectations of me. I could free him from me and my imperfect (incomplete?) love- and that would free me for the *love* ( the ecstacy of pigf**kin) that I believe I could have with C-man. We carry on for a little while until I, feeling neglected, unfulfilled, and hurt by his aloof-ness, break it off again, then I am left alone. And I know myself well enough to know that posthumously, my mind will turn the whole Niceman story around and I will end up believing that I was not good enough for Niceman. Unworthy. (Because I think that of myself in most situations anyway.)

I'm sorry if that didn't make any sense- I said it was convoluted!

I don't have a whole lot of self-esteem, and I know it would be a mistake to get drawn into CasinoDrama again. I need to hang on to what little self-esteem I have and try to fortify it. I want to stop defeating my own self.

And to answer your question of May 29 - "Do you know why you cried? Was it out of joy, sorrow, pleasure or pain or a mixture of these? " Sorrow and pleasure and pain. The pleasure feels scary to me. That even scares me to write that- but there it is. And - sorrow and pain because I can't have what I want! I almost deleted that, because it's embarassing to put it out here, but that was my first childish reaction to your question. I can't have what I want, and I believed I wanted him. I may lapse and someday, talking about this won't be in the past tense, but today? I'm doing better with knowing vs feeling.

I have spent the last weekend working at the new job and I think working the two midnight shifts will be ok for me. I had no trouble staying awake all night, or on the hour drive home.. Having worked there before, I didn't have to train at any new equipment, and I work alone. I am rearranging my sleep schedule during the week, staying up a little later at night so it won't be as difficult to stay up all night each weekend. Also, the wave I refer to subsided a little after Friday, and reading your post. (Thanks again) I have seen the Niceman again, and everything is ok.

I'm sorry that you still have to struggle against that *pull* toward Ms. Sneaky. I'm glad you shared it with me though. It reinforces to me that this is something for me that is not going to go away, that it is something in me that I will have to work at understanding.

Tez - you are such a very good friend to me. (And I think your heart is the Teddybear- NOT the Ladykiller.)

May 29, 2007
8:56 pm
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BevDee.

Its good to see that you are doing just fine now.

This 'emotional yearning' disguised as 'romantic love' is an insideous thing, isn't it. I haven't met too many people, therapists and psychologists included, who really have a first hand knowledge and understanding of this problem at its very core.

When we are under the control of this very strong 'emotional yearning', we will abandon all regard for our own welfare, putting ourselves in severe harm's way without a second thought, in order to get what we want. We will even force our cognitions into irrationality and capitulation followed by cognitive enslavement to our emotionally driven desires. This is indeed very childlike.

So you see, I thoroughly understood where you were coming from when you wrote:

"... I can't have what I want! I almost deleted that, because it's embarassing to put it out here, but that was my first childish reaction to your question. I can't have what I want, and I believed I wanted him."

I am so familiar with the terrible tug-o-war that goes on inside us when we, who have been reared with a lack of unconditional love, are confronted by the person to whom we are so strongly attracted.

Its like a tug-o-war between our puny cognitions and our very strong but dumb emotions on a high precipice. If the emotions win then both go over the cliff to their doom. Without a lot of diligence and awareness the puny cognitions will lose the tug-o-war to our dumb emotions hands down every time.

I have found that I have had to reassess and completely change my understanding of what love is between a man and a woman. It is not about how intense the orgasm is in sex - not at all. In fact, in our cases such heightened orgasmic experiences are our downfall. They will have us over the cliff in no time at all in a toxic relationship.

True love in sexual relationships is about caring about the other in the face of adversity.

It's about overlooking annoying behavior that cannot be changed. Its about communication of how one feels, without fingerpointing.

Its about being grateful for very mediocre orgasms. Its about giving cuddles with a 'hard on' and not insisting on 'sinking the sausage' when the partner doesn't feel like having sex.

Its about putting up with the other partner's farting in their sleep and overlooking the foul smelling toilet after the other's been.

It's about cherishing the other when old age finally makes dipping the wick impossible.(I'm not there yet by a long chalk)

It's about nursing a partner in their most incontinent, deteriorated and wasted state through to their cancerous death and then being grateful for the experience.

It's about sharing in the joy of the other person's development of their full potential and sharing in their sorrow in their failures.

How much of the above do you see happening in a full on relationship with Casinoman?

Alternatively how much of the above can you envisage happening in a full on relationship with Niceman?

In the Love Stakes, whilst Mr. Casinoman is most probably a 100 to 1 rank outsider, I suspect that Niceman is odds on favorite and in there with a chance of winning by a nose. Am I right?

If the 'highs' ain't all that high in the cot then you can be sure that the 'lows' won't be all that low out of it either. In toxic relationships, the converse is also true in our case - ecstacy plummets into agony as the emotions cycle. As unromantic as that might seem, that is my confirmed conviction.

But I'm sure I've said nothing knew here. It needs to be said and reread by me over and over to keep the awareness of my puny cognitions at their peak. Otherwise it's into bed with Ms. Sneaky, pig f..kin, and over the cliff into much more than just pigshit!

I need to avoid the 'first drink' at Ms. Sneaky's 'well' just for one day at a time!!

June 13, 2007
4:45 pm
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Tez

Hey Tez

Please don't be alarmed- this is not an SOS on the Bevdee's addiction thread!

I just wanted to holler at you to let you know I am not avoiding your last post or anything like that.

It's been 3 full weeks since I had any contact with Casinoman. He hasn't shown back up here. I guess changing my email and IM addy was a clear enough message to him, and didn't require further explanation. He's not a stalker, after all - that, or he can't afford the gas! For myself, removing that door or window to him has really helped me to withdraw.

In the last three weeks, I have had a couple of bad days. The Niceman has been out of town, and I have had to recognise that some of my need for C-man comes when I feel lonely. I was kind of emotional after I left the therapist yesterday, and I thought about C-man all afternoon. I had to pass by the turn-off that goes to his place on the way home. If I drank, I would have had a very salty margarita. Or two. As it was, all afternoon, I fought the urge to eat something with sugar in it. I wanted a chocolate shake. I wanted to "take matters into my own hands", but I didn't dare do that again. I wanted something. I did none of it. So- yeah, I see the addiction. The jonesing. Recognising it helps me.

I was scared yesterday after I left the therapist.

Anyway, I wanted to thank you again for the opinion and concern you expressed for me. It has helped me put things in perspective, and see some of my own behaviours more clearly.

Besides - I miss talking to you, Tez! How have you been?

June 13, 2007
6:02 pm
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Hi BevDee.

Yep you're doin' just fine - I can see that from what you write.

Except for trivial annoyances I am doing well too.

Winter's here now and the weather is beautiful. They tell me our Queensland weather is very much like that of California in the US. So you probably can understand how nice it is here now.

Take care of Niceman and forget the C..man.

June 28, 2007
1:48 am
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Hey Tez

I didn't want to start a new thread - this is kind of the BevDee angst thread, I suppose. I need to wade through this, and if you have any thoughts after reading it, I would appreciate your insight. Your perspective.

My cousin called me at the first of the week and told me that he had completed all the tests at the clinic and the results were back. He told me that he does have advanced liver cirrhosis and the prognosis is for less than a year. He was placed on the list for a liver transplant, but there are children on the list that are given priority, and the dr doesn't hold out much hope for that.

I knew this, and expected it. I could see it when he was here with me this winter. But hearing him tell me, hearing it made it final, and dispelled any possibility of hope or denial, and it was all I could do not to sob into the phone. He asked me if I wanted his car and he asked me not to tell any of his friends where he was or of his condition. He seems at peace with it.

I lost him as a lover/partner a long time ago. But I still love him. It's not romantic anymore, there's no lust, and it's not the way I love my other cousins, but it's love. Respect and friendship, most of the time.

I have had this thought- and this sounds creepy and selfish to say, but with him gone, what am I going to do? I have always been able to call on him. I've called on him to help me with stuff- like fixing my car, moving, fixing the houses I have lived in. I have called him just to have the reassurance of hearing his voice when I feel lonely, and for the hell of it, because he makes me laugh.

My relationship with him pushed me to grow beyond my life after the abuse. To have a physical relationship- I was so filled with terror and shame when I thought of being naked with any man, and I was terrified of trusting anyone enough to have sex, and he was patient and gentle with me. The first time- he turned off all the lights and waited in the other room so I could take my clothes off and slip under the covers before he came back in.

He pushed- no, he dared and goaded me to go out in the world, get a better job, more training- to just basically go after it. Because I was stuck in a job I hated, in a town I didn't like. Even after he left, I got stronger, yet it was nice to have his continued friendship (after he left me) to fall back on.

I'm trying to figure out if I equate him with my own strength. Or someone to boost my confidence when it flagged. Of course, after the physical relationship was over, there were things I could or would not talk to him about. Men, stuff like that. That would have just been bad manners. All he would ever say about that was that *If any of them boys give you a hard time, let me know and I'll kill em for you*

I can't listen to country or rock radio without some song reminding me of nights we spent dancing at bars, or sitting home listening to the radio and playing poker with his brother. I am going to have to start listening to rap music. Or gospel.

Yesterday afaternoon, I was seized by such pain, my heart hurt. It was raining and I was in the house and I thought, "He won't be here, in less than a year he will be gone", the thought hurt so bad, I found myself pacing back and forth in the kitchen, wanting to run from the thought. I stopped myself and sat down to feel the feeling. And breathe. I didn't like it. I allowed it and it got worse, and I thought "I want this to stop" . I felt frenzied with it. Stop stop stop hurting.

I had to stop feeling the feeling and get busy doing something physical. I don't do well with feeling these feelings. I have always run from them. It is easier for me to answer this question *What do you think?* than this one *How does that make you feel* It's just easier for me to analyse, rationalise justify- whatever, just not to give my own emotions any validity.

I'm so afraid that someone close to me will be able to tell from my sadness that there is more than a cousinly affection. I'm terrified of giving myself away. I spent a lot of time Wednesday obsessing about a funeral. And how I would act and afraid of how people would see me.

(I know this is really putting the cart before the horse, because he might get a liver, but this is what my mind does.)

Then I thought about his mother, my aunt, who could not bring herself to attend her mother's funeral, because she wanted to remember her alive. If I choose not to attend services, she, if no one else, will understand that I wouldn't want to see him interred. Now if that doesn't sound honest, it's because it's not entirely. I'm more afraid of having to deal with explaining things to my family than seeing clods hit a casket.

I'm worried that I might not be able to hold it together and my niceman will wonder why I am tearful when some songs on the radio comes on.

This emotion has been coming in waves. At the most unexpected times. I would just love to be able to control that.

June 29, 2007
11:54 pm
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BevDee.

You said:

"It is easier for me to answer this question *What do you think?* than this one *How does that make you feel* It's just easier for me to analyse, rationalise justify- whatever, just not to give my own emotions any validity."

And:

"Now if that doesn't sound honest, it's because it's not entirely. I'm more afraid of having to deal with explaining things to my family than seeing clods hit a casket."

I think I know how you feel. Yesterday I went to the funeral of my partner Joy's children's grandfather. He was the only father my partner, Joy, ever knew.

For all this week I have been anxious about this funeral at which I was not expected to attend because I hardly knew the guy who died. I went along to support Joy in case her ex showed up drunk to his father's funeral.

As I've mentioned before, the father of Joy's children and the son of the 'dear departed' is a genuine a..hole(worse than Luc) of the first order. About 18 years ago, I very nearly had a punch up with him. Only the fact that he lost his guts and never showed up for the prearranged fight prevented it from happening.

All this week my mind generated images of him showing up to his father's funeral full to the brim with 'dutch courage' and wanting to 'wake up' sleeping dogs. This guy raped his sister when he was 16 and she was 8 years old. He repeated this rape by raping her again when she had just given birth at 18 years old. He sexually interfered with two of his nieces when they were 8 and 9. He fathered a child by the 12 year old daughter of his Moari defacto wife? This woman committed suicide after finding out about who fathered her daughter's child. He kept this daughter as his concubine. She is now his involuntary de facto wife in bondage in her early 20's afraid to leave him and totally brainwashed into believing that no other life is possible for her. He now has other children by her. He sexually abused Joy's (his own blood) daughter when she was 12. Joy's daughter is now 30 and was at the funeral of her grandfather. The fight in which I was determined to punch his lights out 18 years ago, was over him not wanting to return Joy's 12 year old daughter to her after school holidays and verbally abusing Joy over my phone for Joy's insistence that he did. At that time we did not know about him sexually abusing her during these school holiday stopovers.

With all this in my mind and the agression that I still feel towards him, I was very concerned that I might not be able to control myself if his drunken mouth slipped too far out of gear. I'm told that he's as fat as a pig now and as bald as a bandicoot. Though older, I'm trim, still in reasonable nick and still half a chance. I drew pictures in my mind of a scuffle in the chapel with punches flying and me having to live for the rest of my life with the shame of knowing that I was partly responsible for ruining an important and solemn day in my partner's and her family's life. Joy was very anxious and worried about how she herself and her daughter would respond to him as well.

Anyway, he never showed up for his father's funeral. There mustn't have been enough 'dutch courage' in the world to compensate for his lack of having a backbone. The only thing that will redeem this guy in my eyes is if he fronts up to the police station and confessed to the many statutary rapes, adult rapes, incest sexual abuse and other criminal acts that he has performed.

The moral of the story is that our worst fears rarely if ever materialize.

The second moral is that our imagination/emotion interplay can feed each other until we create hell on earth for ourselves. This is self-abuse of the emotional kind that we tend to dismiss arbitrarily. We deserve better.

The third moral is that in times of self-doubt, we all have our own inbuilt safe place in which a wise old man and woman resides and to which we have recourse for backup at times when we feel that we cannot emotionally cope. But it is up to us to seek this wise counsel out in times of trouble. If we opt for external human support at such times, we are never guaranteed of finding it as and when we want it. In addition, if we ignore our own inner wisdom sources, they tend to ignore us and we won't be able to find our way to them when times are tough. Practice makes perfect.

Be reassured that if you haven't already then you are well on the way to finding this inner strength - I have no doubt of this. But it is human to have self-doubt, this I know from personal experience.

What do they say? "Just feel the fear and do it!"

I say:

"Recognize the fear, feel it, respect it as a evolution's survival inheritance, but don't feed it with what it craves and it, like everything else, will pass."

June 30, 2007
2:14 pm
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Hey Tez

Good to hear from you. Goodness, it sounds like we have both had a bad week. And although I didn't think it was possible, I know now there is at least one man on earth that is worse than Luc. And your Miss Joy! It's amazing that she has the joy and niceness you have described to me. The feelings you have described that you feel toward her ex are similar to the feelings I have about my friend's pedophile husband. That much anger. I don't even hold that much anger toward Luc- most days. I don't believe that people like that deserve to live, much less show up in public and expect not to have their faces smashed in.

Why do we do this to ourselves? This worrying, this imagining? I wear myself out. At least it feels good when I finally stop.

This made me think really hard, Tez. "if we ignore our own inner wisdom sources, they tend to ignore us and we won't be able to find our way to them when times are tough " Like an unused muscle? This has caused me to think about a period of about 4 years before I let Luc move in with me. I thought alot. To be more accurate, I should say I contemplated my world more thoughtfully. I was more observant. I wrote alot. I read about other religions again, studied self-hypnosis, automatic writing, crystal healing, and bought homemade bread from these folks at a "New Age" bookstore/ coffee shop that was around the corner from my house. The fish people ran them off. Do you know what that means? In the Bible Belt of the US, (maybe other parts too) the fish people are the Charismatic christians - Holy Rollers. They drove those people out of business, because the people sold books on subjects that were not within the rigid confines of that Christianity. Because there were symbols displayed in the window of their home and of their shop. Because a large group of them lived together in a huge old house. Men and women, married and umarried, living together in this cummune-ity. But - the good news is that I found those folks a year later, running a candle shop. "Controversial items were special ordered- but no more bread. It was a zoning issue- so no food, no bakery. Sorry for the rant- but that is another example of intolerance in a society, and how it affected me. I lost my home-made hand-kneaded bread source!!

Anyway, back to this, because it keeps coming to me - "if we ignore our own inner wisdom sources, they tend to ignore us and we won't be able to find our way to them when times are tough " I believe this happened to me after Luc moved in and the abuse started. All the fighting that was going on, the anger and violence put me into fear and crisis, and the knowledge I had was pushed to the side, or the back, or the bottom. I have thought about that alot. I didn't read anymore, and my crystals got dusty. For so long after leaving him, I was unable to draw on any reserve of wisdom, because all my energy was focused on getting up in the morning, making it to work and through the shift, and home at night. I lost some talent, for lack of a better word. Some of a gift that I had finally begun to hone a little. (Some of the light that is within me?) Sometimes I believe it's coming back to me. Somtimes there'a a little shine but when it happens, that in itself causes me some fear, because it is so unfamiliar.

Tez, I had to look up "defacto". I thought from the context in which it was written, it meant "common-law", so I tested myself. I was right. :~)

Respect my fear huh? I have tried to do that. In this case, with my fear of discovery of the relationship with my cousin, I have tried to mentally play out this worst case scenario. I get to a certain point in this scenario and my mind just shouts Stop!. I get scared thinking about it. I stop, and I can't go any further. I need to think about this some more. There is a family reunion coming up next week- yes, the side of the family that my cousin is from- the paternal one. I don't want to go.

It's always good to talk to you.

July 1, 2007
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BevDee

You wrote:

"Respect my fear huh? I have tried to do that. In this case, with my fear of discovery of the relationship with my cousin, I have tried to mentally play out this worst case scenario. I get to a certain point in this scenario and my mind just shouts Stop!."

I'm sorry that I may have given you the wrong impression here.

What I meant by "respect our fears" was to see at a deep level the part that fear has played in our survival and not to put ourselves down as cowards or 'fraidy cats' because we feel fear. I was thinking of the denigrating self-talk like "I'm stupid for feeling such irrational fear." Or "I'm not an OK person because all in my life is not serene." etc, etc.

In your case with your sexual experiences with your cousin from a moral perspective, I see nothing wrong with that at all. I remember a cousin of mine on my mother's side, an extremely oversexed beautiful and voluptuous female, who at 15 had the real hots for me big time when I was 17 and driving my 'souped up' old Chevvy.

She got into the front seat of my car and then it was groping galore with no regions out of bounds if you know what I mean. I was too frightend to have sexual intercourse with her because I had no contraceptives with me at that time. So it was down to mutually applied, foreplay style, hand jobs for both of us. Her father(no blood relation of mine) found out about her obsession with me and cornered me giving me a humungous lecture telling me I was "still wet behind the ears" and "to keep away from his daughter or he would tell my family all about it". I suspect that he did tell my mother because I got a lecture on the dangers of consanguinity in sexual relationships with relatives. Yawnnnn... This 'lecturing father' was the greatest philandering root rat around. No one was out of bounds for him and the whole neighbourhood knew it. Hmmm!

Even though I was a local 'bodgie', I was still a victim of Roman Catholicism. Therefore I was very ashamed and fearful and kept away from 'cousin hot pants' after that. I sought and 'sowed my wild oats' elsewhere. Today I look back on the whole affair with amusement. If I ran into her nowadays and we were both free, nothing would hinder me from having sex with her if all else fell into place, that is.

If I were in your shoes, I would be asking myself: "Why does my family's religion based opinions, beliefs and views have such a powerful control over my emotions? What is it that I ultimately fear happening?"

If you break down at the funeral it is because of your closeness to your cousin not because you had sex together. I see the two things not as mutually exclusive but very different. One does not guarantee the truth of the other in either direction. If you have sex with someone it does not necessarily guarantee an intimate relationship. Neither does having an intimate relationship with someone necessarily guarantee that sex is involved even though intimate sexual relationships are common.

My partner,Joy broke down badly at her father-in-law's funeral. But not for one moment does anyone suspect that her ex's father was screwing Joy. Neither should any of your rellies automatically think that your cuz and you were sexually involved. If they do then they would be very cruel to share such thoughts with others at such a time especially as such sharing would reflect very badly upon them.

Boy, oh boy, do we humans get all hung up about sex and who does what to whom, when, where and how. That's another of the evils perpetrated and perpetuated by just one of the insanities of perverted Christianity.

Pleeeeeeze let yourself off the hook as I eventually did last week. But I still faced the fear by going the funeral; however, with the full trust in my abilities to handle anything well come what may at that funeral. I could easily have opted out and not gone.

Belatedly, Joy thanked me yesterday for coming. Joy knew that there was no moral or social obligation on me to go other than to shield her from the 'ultimate arsehole'(henceforth to be known as UA) if he showed up drunk causing trouble. After all how many husbands go to the funeral of the father of their partner's ex especially when the ex is an arsehole of the worst order - a UA?

July 5, 2007
10:11 pm
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Hey Tez

It's good to hear from you. I've put some thought into this. "If I were in your shoes, I would be asking myself: "Why does my family's religion based opinions, beliefs and views have such a powerful control over my emotions? What is it that I ultimately fear happening?"

Okay here is the worst case scenario I have created in my mind. I think of my daddy asking me if it's true, and when I give him a truthful answer- he recoils in horror from me.

Here are my imagined possible ramifications from his horror.

Rejection. He doesn't want to be around me ever again and this will cause me pain. He is the only parent I have that nurtured me at all. I look just like him and Nana, his mother. He is the one that changed my diapers, not Mom. He taught me how to tie my shoes, fish, ride a bike, whistle, swim, ride a horse, water-ski, play softball. He cooked breakfast for us, she threw Pop-tarts over her shoulder to us on her way out of the house. He bought me a ladyrazor when I was 10, because he was the one that noticed I had hair on my legs - mom wasn't paying attention. He taught me to cook, and to slow dance. He taught me to drive his old truck with a standard transmission, cranky clutch, up a steep hill, telling me if I could manage that, I could drive anything. When we took long trips to visit his family, every year, he taught us the intricacies of our family tree and tried in vain to teach us the difference in 2nd cousin and 1st cousin twice removed. He respected my mother's parents after the divorce. After the divorce, he never once bad-mouthed my mother, who left him after running around on him for years. Not once. Not to her children, anyway.

This was all before my daddy went to church. Oh, he went a couple of times a year, but it was my mom that took us three times a week and to the special occasions. Vacation Bible School and Tent Revival in the summers. (But she was really wanting to place herself in proximity to the minister she later married). Daddy didn't go regularly. He smoked a cigar occasionally and drank a beer sometimes at the lake. All that he did before the divorce came from within the man who is my daddy. Not the "christian" daddy. His kindness, attentiveness, and gentleness toward his children and everyone else in his world just came from within himself.

He doesn't put me down, or favor my sister over me. He calls me twice a week, and even all the stupid religious spam email he sends me lets me know that I am on his mind. That he loves me. I hate to say it, and you have to know that I don't read it, but I would probably start to worry if the godspam stopped now. He is all I have for a parent. And he is getting older each year.

From what I imagine, while his disapproval would mostly be from some *moral* standpoint about the consanguinity, it would also be from the fact that it was sex outside a marriage. It would also be disapproval of my cousin's drinking. Not just his drinking, but also of his life and the fuck-you attitude he has always had toward our family's very conventional attitudes. His work as an instrumentation tech allowed him to travel to alot of different countries, and all over the US. Aside from the moral judgment, our family disapproves of lifestyles that are not like their own - very conventional. He was a nomad, and they didn't understand that in his line of work, there might be time periods of unemployment. They didn't approve of his lifestyle, and I believe it's because unemployment was terrifying to these Depression Babies.

I imagine Daddy would be uncomfortable being presented with the thought that I have had sex. Period. Ever. He doesn't talk about stuff like that with me or my little sister, he never has.

He starts that preaching again, trying to "save" me from the hell his bible promises . He will inundate me with it, just like he has done before - and that will back me into a corner and I will finally, finally buck up and say <"b>Stop". Out of respect for the man and his belief, and the respect for my elders (that he taught me by example), and because he is sincere in his belief and genuinely means well, because he is every bit as sensitive as I am, I have never said, "no more". When I was a teenager, I tried to explain to him why I quit going to church. I tried to explain to him the reasons for my disbelief. I was shouted down, so now, I just let him say what he has to say, because this was the only subject he ever displayed any temper about. He got furious.

I am afraid it will hurt him and he will recoil in horror. But it has hurt me that I have been completely unable to ever discuss any thoughts that conflicted with his - about religion, god, that bible, the universe.

Because of the reactions that I am sure will come- the scripture quoting, the illogical arguments, then that final coup d'etat- "Do you hate god" or
"I'll be praying for you" Either way - dismissive, a conversation stopper, and it was hurtful to me, trying to have a conversation about it.

My fear is loss of his/their approval and fear of rejection.
That if I finally say stop with the preaching - he will thump his bible and then retreat in wounded silence. And his family, while not as fanatical in their belief, will judge me as he does.

He won't love me anymore.

He won't love me anymore.

I don't entirely believe that any of these fears are valid. At one time, I felt they were, but because since Daddy's marriage to a really nice lady with this rowdy, happy laugh 4 years ago, he has mellowed out toward worrying me half to death about my salvation and my savings accounts. I know that this love of his is good to him , because he is happier and laughs alot.

Yes - "and not to put ourselves down as cowards or 'fraidy cats' because we feel fear. I was thinking of the denigrating self-talk like "I'm stupid for feeling such irrational fear." Or "I'm not an OK person because all in my life is not serene." etc, etc. " I don't feel stupid. No one can ever accuse me of that and have it bother me. That's like letting it bother me that someone calls me polka- dotted, or that I perceive that someone is implying I am polka- dotted, and get hurt by it. I'm not stupid and I'm not polka- dotted, and I know that, so I don't internalise that. But! Having that irrational fear makes me *feel* weak. Not strong.

I believe that I shouldn't care about other people's opinions. And I get angry with myself when I do. I get angry that I fear losing that good opinion I believe a person dear or important to me has about me. Because then I have to admit to myself that my own opinion of myself is not firm enough to withstand criticism or disapproval from someone else. That I have no real conviction where my self is concerned.

My sister was the only person I have ever told about my cousin. She told my mother after the grinchy Xmas at Mom's. I left after the big blow-out, and a couple of days later, my mom gleefully emailed me to tell me that Sissy had told her. That hurt. Not that my mother, the original slut, knew that I had had a relationship with my first cousin, but that my sister used that information to circuitously hurt me, because she knew how my mother would play it back. As for me, it was important to me that I felt superior to my mother and sister- that I was not an original slut, like they were. (Well, I'm not- I have never been married, so I never cheated on my husband. See how sanctimonious I can be? This is what I have shrouded myself with- to be superior to them). Now. I dreaded this for 7 years, and when it happened, the earth did not open up and swallow me- but I don't respect her the way I do my daddy. Respect? Fear? My perception of loss with him is greater than with her? I'm really mulling that over.

He's the only loving parent I ever had, but sometimes I feel crushed under his expectations of me- expectations that I don't feel that I meet. He never forgets my birthday, and he drives 6 hours one way to visit me- at least 3 times a year, but since the divorce when I was 12, and his embrace of his religion, he has never told me that he is proud of me. (Pride is one of the seven deadlies) He used to. He bragged about how quick I could climb a tree, and how great a water-skier I was at 6 years old. But after? Every accomplishment I have ever told him about (submitted for approval? Recognition? See my sister never had to do anything, she had those kids after all, and that made everyone happy) - Whether it was a good grades each semester in college, continually going after more training or passing all the self-studied advanced registries I studied so hard for, his stock answer is "whether you see it or not, God is working in your life." OR "The credit goes to God". OK. Whatever. He's not all innocence though. I can tell that he knows he uses his position of authority and the respect he instilled in me to get his *point* across, yet that position never allowed for dialogue. It was all monologue.

One time. One time I could tell how proud he was of me, but he never said it. When I was 19, I saved enough money to buy a car. I had one picked out, and asked him to come to the car lot with me, check the car over, and try to get the guy to come down on the price. I knew that the dealer would try to screw me over, since I was a 19 year old girl. I could see my daddy smiling only in the corners of his mouth at the amount of money I told him I had to spend. I had saved $1250, going to college and working part-time in a restaurant - in 1979. With the price at $1050, I wanted that car for 800, so I could have some money left over for license registration, and get tape deck for the car. Anyway- he looked at the car, kept a poker face and nudged me with this elbow. Then he commenced to dicker with that car dealer, and the man never knew what hit him. he talked him down to $775.

His expectations are that I move back to his town near him , find a nice church, or go to his. Other expectations were that I marry and have children, but I'm pretty sure he gave up on getting any grandchildren from me when I turned 40. Tez, please don't feel you have to answer any of this, any comments are appreciated, but I know that some of this is irrational. Some of it is based on experience, but my fear of rejection or being rebuffed again has possibly prevented me from finding out if he has changed. Sometimes his actions and words tell me that he hasn't changed too much. He has never withheld his love from me, but he has often stated his disapproval, citing biblical references. And then, sometimes he has surprised me by not being what I thought he was. Know what I mean?

Maybe the horror I envision will simply be some disappointment. Hey - I think that hook just slipped a little writing this.

As for survival? What would I have done as a little girl without his love and protection standing between me and her wrath and rage? What would I have done without his love when my mother focused all her obsessive love on my sister or her lover? About a year ago, my daddy tried to tell me about his and his wife's will, and I asked him if we could talk about it later. Later hasn't come yet.

Please don't think my life is all sadness and fear right now. It's not. I love my new job. The hours are quite tolerable and I'm so glad to be working with digital imaging again, with cross-sectional images and 3D image rendering. I really love that stuff. Part of my dissatisfaction with the job I was doing before was boredom with the type of work I was doing. Having Mon-Fri off is great! At home, I have been able to finish some old projects and start some new ones. I don't know if you remember me talking about my junk, but I have gone deeper and tossed out more stuff. I've also finally gotten to a "place" within myself that I feel emotionally clearer, less bogged down and finally managed to do some writing on an old project I started a couple of years ago. I've been down to the lake a few times- being near the water is very calming to me. I have already committed to work several extra shifts through the months of July and August, so I will have extra money, and in my mind, it is already spent- on car stuff, new tires, tuition, etc.

The Niceman keeps coming back. Sometimes, schedules permitting, we get to see each other twice a week. Sometimes not. His job is requiring him to leave town often, training employees at other plants to install the electronic equipment they are putting on law enforcement vehicles. He gets to go to Canada periodically, and I am jealous that he gets to be there in the spring and summer months, since it is getting so hot and humid here. I haven't heard from the Casinoman since that night several weeks ago, so I have achieved some calm in that regard. Thanks again for your *tough message* on that subject.

I went to the family reunion, and nothing bad happened at all. My cousin didn't show up, but his kids and grandkids were there, and it's always good to see them. One grandson is a 7 year old genius about cars and asked me questions about my Mustang that I couldn't answer. Just like his daddy, granddad and great-granddad. I talked for a long time to my cousin's daughter, and we both cried, and when my aunts saw what was going on, they came over and cried with us.

Back to this "I'm stupid for feeling such irrational fear." Or "I'm not an OK person because all in my life is not serene. etc, etc. " It's been a little over a year since I started posting here and journalling, and although it's getting better, I haven't entirely. What I do is berate myself for being weak. I equate courage with strength, and fear with weakness. Sometimes, I don't recognise it right away, and have spent a lot of time, knotted up, denying the feelings or spending the time in anger. The change I see in myself, what gives me hope is that now that when thought, worry or fear that keeps coming to my surface, the one demanding attention? Gets the attention, the best I know how to give it, right now.

So, I suppose the progress is that I don't give that hook as much time. I have had some spells that I have felt pretty good, so when I do start feeling anxious again? I run to something ( the pc, or a pen and paper) to start trying to let it flow from me. It helps to be able to post here, and get feedback. I have procrastinated on the "Daddy Box" for so long, and attached so much importance to losing his approval, I can remember shoving thoughts back for years, thinking, "Naw, not my Daddy." This may take some time. It feels like the last frontier, but it probably isn't.

Anyway Tez, I appreciate your input, your questions.

You ask - "After all how many husbands go to the funeral of the father of their partner's ex especially when the ex is an arsehole of the worst order - a UA?" I'm guessing not very many. This must be that teddy bear coming out in you? ;;)

Talk to you later, Tez.

July 13, 2007
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Hi BevDee.

I've been away from this site - busy with a software development project. So It is only now that I have read this last post of yours. Sorry about the delay.

My impression(and that's all it is. It's not a fact in my mind by a large chalk) is that the highly emotionally and physically dependent relationship that you had with your father as a child is somewhat active in you today.

From what I read in your post I have gathered that your father/daughter emotional relationship as a child was highly desirable, necessary and survival directed. However, this relationship may have produced deep emotional memories that continue to emerge today.

These painful emotional recalls appear to me to present you with a choice. Do you behave as you did as a child by trying to appease dad? Or do you as a mature adult, take care of your emotional self as a loving mother/father would and at the same time in as loving a way as possible deal with dad's sermonizing as you would with a complete stranger doing the same thing.

Maybe you could ask your dad: "Do you want a 'yes-girl' for a daughter, dad?" or "Dad, as far as you are concerned do I have the right to think for myself in these religious matters?" or "Dad, do you want me to pretend that I believe as you do just to make you feel good?"

You wrote:

"I tried to explain to him the reasons for my disbelief. I was shouted down, so now, I just let him say what he has to say, because this was the only subject he ever displayed any temper about. He got furious."

Your dad's response was(is?) undoubtedly a reaction to his own fears. This is why I hate Christianity so much - it is a totally fear based religion! No one has ever offered a rational rebuttal that could convince me otherwise. The Christian God is a God of wrath -not love. With a world that exists as it does, how could it be otherwise???

I often hear Satan, 'free'(duh!) choice and humanity's sinful nature offered as a sick reason for the underpinnings of this predatory world of ours. But this is the irrationality of confused, befuddled minds. One only has to ask: "Who created Satan and mankind with these propensities and then empowered them?" to see how rediculous is the superstitious beliefs of such unthinking people.

But what really hurts is when someone you love and trust has such beliefs and wants you to conform.

My father was much the as your dad without the sermonizing. I resent the Christians who successfully brainwashed my dad and who never cease trying to impose the same on me through him and by force of legislation. If a Buddhist politician tried to introduce legislation to make Buddha's birthday a public holiday, you would never hear the end of Christian protesting. Funny thing that! I cannot legally and freely choose how I want to die, when and who will assist me all because of the Christian domination of our legislature.

July 14, 2007
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Hey Tez

It's really good to hear from you. I sure missed you- not just this thread, but on the site. I'm glad to see you back in your usual form.

You ask me - "Do you behave as you did as a child by trying to appease dad?" Appease - yes. Or pacify by not disagreeing with him, by not causing trouble. I have done the following for so long now? This has become a fucking tradition, and it is all because I needed to "make things right" On his B-day, Father's Day, and any other Sunday that I could get my nieces to come, I took them to my daddy's church to hear him preach. The "gift" to my daddy is getting to see us in his congregation and the gift to me was to see the happiness in his eyes when he saw us. His pride when he introduces us and has us stand up and tell everyone our names. Those girls hate it! And the last time I took them? At Xmas? I had to pay them! and let the 15 year old, who only had a learners (driver's) permit, drive my Mustang. And that situation, Tez, is all my doing- now I am bribing those girls to do something they hate, (the younger one really does not believe in the god of my father) - to please and appease my daddy.

Please him? Not so much anymore. I don't tell him things about myself that I know will please him, that will earn his approval. I forced myself to stop doing that about 8 years ago. Once I realized what I was doing, it seemed so little - girlish and kind of pitiful. And I'm thinking of this pattern that we had. I submitted (whatever) for approval, he always offered advice on how to do (whatever I was doing) better. He would ask me periodically, "did you do this? Have you done that? How are those tires holding up? How many miles you got on your car?" He should have had boys! I played into it, too. Since I have stopped, he has slacked off. I believe he holds back until he just can't help himself. But my way of answering and my answers are different. I don't want the game we played, but I also do not want and will not knowingly bring on that disapproval.

And yes - about the religion, he knows I don't believe as he does, what bothers me is that he still tries to teach me. Hmph.

"Or do you as a mature adult, take care of your emotional self as a loving mother/father would and at the same time in as loving a way as possible deal with dad's sermonizing as you would with a complete stranger doing the same thing." This one really made me think. If I am channel surfing, and I see televangelists ranting and raving and foaming at the mouth, all frenzied for the lord, I just surf right on past that.

If a complete stranger sermonized to me, I would tell them I wasn't interested, and would walk away. I can't do that with Daddy right now. I still want his approval enough that I don't think I can be honest with him. Want his approval? I can't decide it it is that or that I don't want his disapproval. There is a difference, and I believe I would rather just have his neutrality. This is the difference, but this is what reduces me to feeling like a child again.

I had this thought while writing this. I don't really trust him to accept me for what I am. But I wonder if this is just my mind's convoluted way of blaming him for not accepting me, when it is me who does not accept myself.

You said "Maybe you could ask your dad: "Do you want a 'yes-girl' for a daughter, dad?" or "Dad, as far as you are concerned do I have the right to think for myself in these religious matters?" or "Dad, do you want me to pretend that I believe as you do just to make you feel good?"" Yes! To make himself feel good! Because of his biblical indoctrination, I believe that is exactly what he wants, because that would make him feel that he had done his *job* as my father, as head of the household, to instruct and guide me toward that god. His fear and anger might possibly stem from a sense of failure, not only cognitive dissonance. I just don't know. There are a lot of sposes, and I can't just up and ask him something like that, you know? How could I possibly say, "Do you just want me to agree with you so that you won't feel like a failure as a father and a spiritual teacher?" I can be rude and blunt, I can cut to the chase, but I can't bring myself to say that to him. Yet.

You also say "But what really hurts is when someone you love and trust has such beliefs and wants you to conform." Yes, it has hurt, and at times, it felt like my earthly father's love was every bit as conditional as that of that *heavenly father* in that deathly distant land. This is Daddy's indoctrination.

If you have time ... I wanted to tell you something else.

July 14, 2007
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Bevdee

I felt that your post of 14-Jul-07 was warm, honest and from your heart.

It is sad when our parents love us soooooo conditionally. It is this very conditional love that lies at the root of our dysfunctional parenting and our desire to 'people please' today, that is expressed in so many subtle ways.

You said:

"If you have time ... I wanted to tell you something else."

Yep - go ahead. I'll make the time.

How's the therapy goin'?

July 15, 2007
5:22 pm
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Tez

Hey it's good to hear from you.

Something really cool happened the other night when the Niceman came over to see me. It's so nice up here at the lake after the sun goes down, and it had rained all day so there was a cool breeze. When he got here, the sun had gone down and when I stepped out on the screened porch to meet him, it was pitch black, and I just ... got bossy with him. This was a huge breakaway for me- taking initiative. He and I have talked about this a few times- mostly on the messenger when he is at work! He has told me that he would like me to be more aggressive. He told me that he just wants to be just pushed down and taken advantage of. That he wouldn't even mind being tied up and me having my way with him, so he didn't have to do anything. Well that sounded familiar!! For a long time, I have pondered this and wondered if he was somehow like me, and had some of the same issues as I did. But I found out that's not it. Here is what I found out one day during one of our messenger conversations when he repeated this ..wish, and I asked him why he wanted it like that. He typed "to tell you the truth i would like it better for you to take control because I have been the one in control all my life does that make sense?" I thought I knew what he meant, but I asked him to tell me what he meant. He won't talk about his ex-wife much, and I don't ask, but when he does talk about her, it is not derogatorily. I also think that because he is so polite, he was reluctant to talk to me about his sex life with her. I'm the same- I think sharing details about past lovers with a current one can be tricky, if not disastrous.

He told me it's because he was married for 23 years, always had to ask her if she would, he always initiated, and after several years into the marriage, she wasn't that enthusiastic. So- always in the same bed, in the same position. For 23 years. Yikes. I also sensed he meant control in a responsibility sense. Because he has born all the responsibility for his family, and does so even now, with those adult children and grandkids all living at his place.

I can understand why he feels the way he does, but I just haven't been able to be domineering. I haven't been able to tell him why, either. I have just told him that I am not a take charge kind of person.

But from the last messenger conversation, when he explained that he had always been in control, I finally relaxed about it. I think he wants to feel irresistable? Maybe. So- the other night when he got here, I didn't let him get through the front door. I just sort of pushed him down into the little outdoor rocking sofa that sits out on the porch. Now, I am going to try to explain this without just becoming pornographic. That's not my intent. He was sitting and I was on his lap facing him, but I was kneeling, and he wanted me to shift my position, so my legs weren't under me. He reached over to shift one leg out from under me, but this shifted my balance and I told him I couldn't do the other leg because I would fall backwards. He put his fingers on my lips and said, "I'll hold you". I just looked at him, and he smiled and said it again, "I'll hold you". Ah- I don't give over that kind of trust easily. So I made the decision and as I shifted my legs out from under me, his arms came around my waist. I didn't topple backward! And - because I made that first move, and took charge, it seemed like he was emboldened or just flat turned on so he was a little more aggressive than usual. A couple of times he didn't even ask before he ..did.. stuff.

Afterward, I kept thinking of that moment, not the really good sex that evening, but the moment when I shifted my other leg out from under me, I realized how very significant that was for me. I gave up my control. I trusted. We have been seeing each other for over 2 years. This is the first time I have really trusted a man, since before Lucifer, and I felt more satisfaction that night because of his arms around my waist than anything he was doing anywhere else.

Tez- my therapy is going very slowly. It's hard to get an appointment every two weeks, because she is booked so far in advance, and she has to write an order for a new appt after each visit. I can't have a standing appointment. Dratted rules! Because of the time she took off for the July 4 holiday, by the time I see her again it will have been a month since my last visit. I suppose she is trying to build my trust, but it seems like she is doing it very slowly. Sometimes I feel stymied, and sometimes I feel that everything happens for a reason - I just don't know the reason for this! Since I have the free healthcare, when I started my new job, I didn't elect for medical benefits, and I won't be able to change those benefits elections again until November. I have decided I will continue to see her, but I guess I'll just muddle through until I can get better insurance with a more accessible therapist.

What I have been doing lately- since I'm not in a constant in a state of anxiety like I used to be - is reading. A little of everything - I have been reading novels for pleasure. I have been cooking real meals for myself sometimes since I have 5 days a week off. I have been trying to remember how to relax and treat myself well. I have been taking long baths instead of quick showers, and trying to remember to breathe deeply more often.

(Casinoman hasn't been back yet- anywhere. Online, showing up here, or invading my dreams :~) )

How bout you? How are you and your sweetie doing?

July 16, 2007
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bevdee

On the 15-Jul-07 you asked:

"How bout you? How are you and your sweetie doing?"

Things are going on pretty well.

Ms. Sneaky has finally given up. I can tell by the resignation and the finality in her voice. The flirtations have stopped completely. I can sense that she has let go of any notion of us ever getting back together ever. That is good for both of us.

Joy is a little more relaxed about my speaking to Ms. Sneaky on the odd occasion now. It's as if unconscious telepathic messages of capitulation have been passed by Ms. Sneaky to Joy. Maybe its Joy's reading of Ms. Sneaky's body language - I don't know.

From what you wrote it seems that your relationship with Mr. Niceman has taken a huge step up in the commitment stakes. Good for both of you. I'm sure Mr. Niceman knows that he has won the 'jackpot' in getting you. It seems to me that he is a very smart man and knows 'on which side his bread is buttered'.

It's a shame about the difficulties that you are having with getting sessions with your therapist.

Your deep breathing is an excellent idea. Thich Nat Hanh has said much about the benefits of mindfulness on our physical and mental states. Being conscious of our breathing, according to him, brings our mind and body back into the present in a real practical way. For me this means quietening down emotions by focusing on the present; quietening emotions that have been aroused by imagining future harm and then trying to build imaginary defences -courses of action - before the threat even manifests.

The writings of Thich Nat Hanh on Mindfulness are worth reading. They can be found on the net with a little surfing.

All the best with Mr. Niceman - I think you are on a winner there.

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