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Tell me if this is rape
October 11, 2005
11:56 am
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mamabear
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I flirted with my best friends brother a lot. He stayed with us in our one bedroom apartment most nights. My friend and I shared a room, but when we needed space (meaning we fought or her bf stayed over or my bf stayed over etc) I slept on the couch bed in the front room. Sometimes he slept with me and cuddled me at night when he was there and I slept in front room. This happened several times, but we had never kissed or done anything sexual.
One night when I was asleep, I woke up to someone kissing my neck which is my hotspot if you know what I mean. I was in a deep sleep and at first thought I was sleeping, but then realized I wasn't and it was real. We started kissing and he was all over me. Then it was like I realized what I was doing and stopped. He tried to talk me into going back over to him, but I jerked away from him, and he told me to come back. He came after me. I ran downstairs and out the door (we lived in an upstairs apartment). He's yelling at me to get back here, and I make it almost a block before he catches me. He throws me over his shoulder and carries me home with me screaming the whole way to let me down somewone help. He takes me to the stairway and tries to make me go up, I fight him, nobody helps me. I am sure people heard me, but nobody came to help. We get back upstairs and I am trying to hit him but I am a lot smaller than him (I am 5 ft 3 in and 110 lbs and he is over 6 ft and muscular) He holds me down and kisses me, won't let me up. He keeps calling me baby and saying that he knows I want him.
He takes my pjs off and holds my wrists over my head. He touches me down there and I am moist...proof that I want him. I keep begging him to stop. He just keeps kissing my neck and starts to have sex with me. I quit fighting him and start crying and sobbing. My mind is spinning and my body is betraying me, I am strangely excited even though I keep crying and wishing he would stop I am liking it physically.

Afterwards I am so depressed and I can't sleep. I am scared and mad at him and myself for trusting him and never thinking that he wouldn't care that I told him to stop. He said i was just a tease but that I couldn't tease him. He kept saying that "you know you wanted me" I avoid him like the plague after that night and make plans to move out of state asap. He is gone for a few days, but when my friend is at work and I am alone he lets himself in the apartment while I am in the shower. I don't know he's there and I go out of the bathroom, wrapped only in a towel. He sneaks up behind me and whispers in my ear and I can't remember his exact words, but he says he wants me again. I don't know if I said anything or if I just thought it, I don't even remember what I was feeling at this point besides the fact that i knew it would be useless to fight him off, I already know he is bigger and stronger and doesn't care if I don't want to do it or not. So i let him carry me to the bed I don't make a sound I don't say a word I just lay there and I don't even fight him off this time. I just seperate myself from my body and pretend I am somewhere else. I pretend that this is not happening and I hope it will be over soon. I lay on the bed for what seems like hours but may only have been minutes. He leaves, and I never see him again for years. THis was almost ten years ago, but I think about it almost every day. I told someone once and they said it was not rape because I didn't even try to fight him off the second time, that meant the first time I really didn't mean no. I never called the police, so it wasn't really rape and if I shouldn't flirt with a guy and kiss a guy without intention of it going farther than that. Well, let me tell you, I never made that mistake again. I never kissed a guy after that unless I wanted to have sex, because I didn't want to have it happen again. I learned a lesson, and sometimes I think I deserved it. Just glad that I didn't get pregnant or get aids. By the way my friend was asleep in the bedroom the first night, and she never came out to help me, swears she never heard a thing, and her brother told her it was mutual and she believes him.

October 11, 2005
2:14 pm
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tracylyn
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Mambear ~

What an awful, awful memory to carry around.

My thought is YES. The first encounter you said no and he kept going. That is rape. The second encounter he played on your weakness, knowing full well that it wasn't consentual but continued anyway. That is rape.

You CAN kiss someone without them expecting more. No one should continue once a NO is spoken.

You need to forgive yourself for this and don't blame yourself. This man was wrong.

t

October 11, 2005
4:29 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Mamabear:

YES, honey, it was rape. Both times it was rape. You said NO or STOP and that is all it takes to make it rape.

The situation was similar between me and my first boyfriend. I said STOP, he did not, and so I slept w/ him 3-4 times until we broke up. I did just as you and lay there thinking of somewhere else. For years I thought I deserved it. It was only in the last several years that I found out and accepted that it was rape w/ me too. In fact, my evil x had heard the guy talkin about me at school and how I didn't move or anything. He said he came to say hi to me at a football game coz he felt sorry for me. I didn't know this until after we were married tho. Search and destroy I spoze.

Anyway, don't ever think again that you deserved what happened to you. Don't ever think anything but the truth. He raped you and he's skum. Then think and believe how special you are as a survivor. Use what you have been thru to help others if the opportunity arises.

October 11, 2005
5:31 pm
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nevergivingup
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that's awful. there are no words to change any of it.

it was/is rape.

every time you relive it in your head it still is.

sometimes we have to let go of things and this one is not one of those things we can do that with easily.

you can get counseling to talk about it if you haven't already. talking helps and the counselor will have insight as well as coping mechanisms.

one thing you can do is use that experience to help inform other women about what could happen and how it really affects women deeply for forever. goodness knows women need to be informed here. society has it stacked against us if we listen to its brainwashing that women 'want it'. you know that isn't true. sex is wonderful but most of us are wired to enjoy it with love.

there are so many girls/women who are growing up in an even more callous world as far as what relationships that don't feed us emotionally are. it takes away our womanness. they need to hear from other women who are willing to share experiences. that's how we become aware and that's how we develop our sense of selves and what's good for us and then act to achieve it.

some studies and people believe women get some of what they need to be in a healthy relationship when they're grown, from parent role models, especially fathers.

we know so many of us don't even have one parent nonetheless two and we still have to grow and develop into healthy adults and have healhy relationships. without seeing and having positive behavior modeled for us we have problems in all of life. the dynamics are so, so complicated. many muddle through well enough but the poo hits the fan somewhere, sometime.

i was just thinking you can get some closure out of this if you were able to find a positive outlet where you can help other people to not have to go through such an awful thing and then if they do they know it can end and also to develop coping techniques to reclaim their 'selves' (or to first know they have a self).

it's kind of like forewarning people and teaching them what might be a healthier way to deal with problems the way they affect women, a healthier sense of being a women and that it's a choice to be emotionally healthy. most young women don't have an idea and many other older women have an inkling but can't get it together enough to make things work out well in the relationship department.

i hope this doesn't add to your sadness. i mean to try to help and to find some way to make it meaningful and to gain strength and then insight. i can't make it go away. i wish i could.

i deal with what has affected me every day of my life, every moment, and in every situation. and it isn't always good. i need to tell myself i'm ok. sometimes it's hard but i always go back and say i'll never give up.

be well, honey.

October 11, 2005
6:53 pm
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addicts wife
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I still cnt really talk about this, ((after years and years))
But , yes, a very very similr situation occured with me twice, with 2 seperate guy aquaintences, years apart.
One time I dismissed it as my flirting too much and having a buzz, and just NOt speaking up enough. I mean it was a guy I kinda liked, but wasnt neccessarily "tht" into him, at least not yet, I didnt have a chance to become more "into him."
The second time, I was really unsure if it was rape, but I couldnt deal. For like 6 months I was twitching, easily scared, staartled, Lost an enormous amount of weight, sobbed and sobbed and soobed for weeks and months, Became very bitter and mena towards all Guys. There was no greay area with makles, it was either Black or white. Good or Evil, not even just bad. And what made the 2nd time worse to interpret for me was my being unsure if it was just flashbacks from the 1sttime or if it was in fact a whole entirely new case of the SAME thing but with a different person.
I now say it was both rape in Both cases. Not that I ever really uttered a word of itrationally.
J knows. Two others know, adn who knows who they told.
This last time was when I was 20.... JUSt shy of breing 21. so it was almost... Holy crap!!It was 13 years ago On September 12!!!

WOW.
Well thats interesting.
Anyway.. to answer your question. I do think its rape. You can be raped by people you know and like, that is what was told tome is aquaintence rape. Which I think is equally if not worse than rape by a stranger. Since it was someone I knew and kinda trusted, How could I trust strangers and not be pterified when Some guy walks up to me too fast, or calls with wrong number, or moves in too close to me??
I ended up dropping out of community colege shortly after the 2nd rape. I couldnt handle being around people, Hewent there, his friends went there. it was hell.

October 12, 2005
1:24 am
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Randomwomen2
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my husband raped me once when he was drunk. I have tryed to forget about it but its not something you can. Im so sorry you went through that

October 12, 2005
6:10 am
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revelation
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Mamabear...this was rape, no question about it....you did not consent, you said STOP. The person who did this to you knew you were vulnerable, confused, unsure, hesitant, and that because of this you would be easy to manipulate, that is the nature of these people, it sickens me. Me dear, this is still effecting you, you are still thinking about this, you need to go get this off your chest with someone professional. Please, don't doubt this, don't turn away from yourself and tell yourself it wasn't rape...it was, and you need to be helped to heal from this.

Aw, chicken, you still remember the date? Have you ever thought about talking to someone about your experiences, I believe you were raped too.

My gosh...us women...we are so used to doubting ourselves, so used to trying to carry the burden without complaining, it makes me so angry.

xx,
Rev.

October 13, 2005
6:55 pm
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mamabear
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I was so scared that everyone would read this and say, no it wasn't rape that I couldn't even bring myself to check it until now. I am sitting here crying because now people know what really happened, all of it, not just pieces and they think it was rape.

For years (almost ten) I have gone back and forth between, yes, it was rape and I didn't deserve it (during my good times) and then no, I deserved it, I brought it on, I shouldn't have flirted/teased and I deserved it (during my depressed times).

I do know that it has been a constant presence in my mind. I can't stand the scent of vanilla, every time I smell it I get physically ill (I was wearing that scent that night). A couple of months agoI had been thinking about it a lot and my husband was a little rough with me,and held me down. He thought it was all fun and games and I was going along with it, when in reality I had shut myself off and was reliving my past with "Jamie". I have an uncanny ability to seperate my mind from my body, and I did it then. Afterward, I cried for a LONG time unconsollably. My husband who I love dearly and would never knowingly hurt me could not understand what was wrong with me. He kept apologizing over and over and over saying he thought it was a game, I never really let him know I wasn't interested, why didn't I tell him what I was feeling, why didn't I tell him to stop. The answer is I don't know. I couldn't explain it. I know he would have stopped if I had told him, but I didn't. And he felt so bad, and tried to comfort me but I couldn't stand his touch. Things have not been quite right since then, and he hasn't known why. He knows I was raped, I told him I was (even when I have doubted it myself) but never told him the details. I don't want to talk to him about it. I don't want him to think I am comparing him to Jamie. Who consequently, I have forgiven, but I have not been able to forgive myself. I have signed myself up for counseling, I am determined not to give up this time when it starts to hurt like I have in the past.
When I get myself straightened out from my past traumas and work out my depressive/anxiety/codependency issues, I plan to do something to help others. I just need to find my place in this world.

The wierd thing is, the people that know me, think I am a calm, cool, collected person, and they don't know how scrambled my brains really are sometimes. I am good at putting on a smiling face. Fake it till you make it is my motto, and it works well for me. I am the one that people ask for help! I am the understanding one! I have let others think I am stronger than I really am.

Thank you for giving me encouragement and validation. I know I am quite a rambler, that is one of my flaws! It is nice to have somewhere I can let down my walls and not have to live up to a self imposed image.

Love to all,
Mamabear

October 13, 2005
10:11 pm
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nevergivingup
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mamabear,

you are strong and don't you ever forget that. counseling will help you. i ramble too and i like it but i know others need a rest sometimes. i'll get back to you. my friend is calling.

October 14, 2005
3:36 pm
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Worried_Dad
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The first incident was definitely rape--not only did you say "no" but you fought and ran.

The second incident--spiritually and morally is rape in that you were still traumatized by the previous assault. Legally, you did not say "no" so it is ambigous, harder to prove in court.

Your friend is mistaken about the first incident not being rape because you did not really "mean no." You said "no" and that is good enough.

October 14, 2005
6:11 pm
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mamabear
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It was almost ten years ago, I am not really interested in proving it, I just want to let it go but don't know how. I have tried to forgive him, I think he was high at the time and I know he had a terrible life. I have forgiven him, but not myself, I still in ways feel I am to blame. I just thought if I could feel that I was really raped and not have to feel like I deserved it, then closure would come. It does help being able to tell the whole story and get feedback from others that it was indeed rape. I have blamed myself, partially because of the reaction of my friend afterwards and partially because I told a guy I talked to on the internet about it a few months later and he said it was not rape, that too many women want to lead a man to the point of no return and then say stop knowing they "can't" stop and then cry rape afterwards. I did not mean to be that way but that is what he said I did and that I deserved it. Maybe now I can see that he was a jerk and possibly a rapist himself if he had that attitude, but at the time it hurt me deeply. And even now realizing that he was a stranger and I shouldn't have cared what he said it still gives me doubts.

But I have reread and reread this thread trying to give myself the power to accept that it was not my fault and I can let it go. I don't want to be a victim any more. This has really been an issue for me, I thought I had logically dealt with it, but when my 3 year old was molested it all came rushing back even worse than before. Whereas before I thought about it every day, now it is nightmares, and vomiting when I smell vanilla, jumping when someone accidentally brushes me,a constant presence in my mind.

I am praying about it, I have a counseling session next week, I am turning to you guys to help support me through this, I told my mother in law what was bothering me but not details when she kept pushing and now I am feeling horrible about telling her, wishing I would have kept quiet. Needing to put up some boundaries and not tell the people in my life every detail.

Don't know why I feel compelled to do this. Is it for sympathy? Is it to feel like I am wronged? Is it for validation that I am the "Right" one in a given situation? I don't know. I do know that I need to take off the mindset of the victim. I tell my friends things about my husband's and my fights that they shouldn't know and then I feel so guilty afterwards. I have made promises not to do this but I break them. I feel like I have to tell or I will burst inside. I love him dearly and don't want to disrespect him, I really feel like this is something I am compelled to do. A compulsive drive. I hate it that I expose his weaknesses, I don't know why I do that. I hope he doensn't do that to me. I feel like he is emotionally unavailable to me and I need someone to lean on. But how can he trust me if I do that. I am undermining our relationshiop! AAAHHH!!! This is one of the reasons I can't love myself even though I keep trying. I almost wish I could physically zip my lips. I make resolutions and they fail. Somebody anybody help me to get insight and help me stop this destructive problem I have. Just telling myself to quit hasn't worked!

October 14, 2005
7:18 pm
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CODA_Mom
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mammabear,

I am "hearing" that you were perhaps feeling guilty because even though you had sex against your will, your body was responding as if it wasn't.

He was pressing all of your "hotspots" and your body was responding the way it was programmed to respond. That was not the same as enjoyable foreplay leading up to a fulfilling sexual experience. His actions were all about forcing your body to do what it was created to do but only for the end result of power and control.

Think about what happens when you slice an onion...your eyes would start watering as if you were crying, but you are not really crying. You can not shut off the involuntary response from your eyes the same way that you couldn't stop your body from responding sexually.

The second incident triggered a state of disassociation, where you went into another state of consciousness in order to avoid being retraumatized. This is very common with sexually-assaulted individuals. They cannot escape physically, so they shut down and escape mentally.

So, yes, you were raped, and I am sorry that you went thru this. Please don't blame yourself, this guy knew what he was doing.

CM

October 14, 2005
10:32 pm
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mamabear
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yes CodaMom, that is one of the main reasons that I was so confused. My body liked it, and my heart and mind didn't, and I wasn't sure what that meant to me. I didn't know if you could be raped and still like it physically. I never thought about the body being programmed to have involuntary responses. You see, I was only 17 when that happened. I had sex several times with a boyfriend consensually but we were both inexperienced and it was lovely emotionally but not that great physically if you know what I mean. I hadn't been with someone that was that experienced and knew what they were doing. And I hated it and didn't want to do it but I felt my body betrayed me by being excited against my will. It was so confusing, and I already had enough issues to try to deal with at that time.

And I think I must have heard about dissociation but not the term itself, anyhow, I know that I still do that sometimes like when I get a pap smear or my husband wants to do something I don't I let him and just think about something else like I am not even in my body at all. It is my body but it is not me.

Another thing about the situation that shames me...I had heard that he did that to a girl in a downstairs apt but my thought was yeah right, you can't rape the willing. I heard she called the police but there wasn't enough evidence or something for a case. I had known her and that she had been with a lot of people before. And I didn't believe her because I saw them making out before. And then that happened to me and I believed her then, but not before it happened to me. I never said anything to her about it thank goodness but I didn't believe her. And when I told my friend and she didn't believe me I knew how horrible of a thing I had done even if quietly to doubt that it had in fact happened to her. Even if she had slept around, I should have believed her. I can't change that now, and I am feeling a little better about the situation. Maybe with counseling I will heal. I pray it be so.

October 15, 2005
8:04 am
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mamma,

It is great that you are in counseling, it is the best thing that you can do for yourself and your son (I've read your posts on the other side).

Sexual assault is so pervasive...it affects a person's trust, their worth, their outlook. But it doesn't have to end there. You can learn to begin to see yourself more as a survivor than a victim, over time. And you will be able to help others who suffer from the same thing.

Keep going, we're all here for you.

Blessings,

CM

October 15, 2005
11:48 am
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"still in ways feel I am to blame. I just thought if I could feel that I was really raped and not have to feel like I deserved it"

A victim is not to blame for the violent behavior of an abusive person. And NOBODY deserves to be assaulted.

I hear that you are confused some because you had some "pleasurable" sensations...forget that. The question is not what your body did, but did you desire the experience and express your desire. I think running down the street screaming is a pretty darn explicit rejection.

October 17, 2005
10:18 am
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mamabear
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Yes, a survivor, not a victim. I had heard that before but now I feel like I would like to be a survivor now. I am tired of feeling victimized, I wish it hadn't taken me almost ten years to finally come to the conclusions that I am coming to now. You are right worried dad, nobody deserves to be assaulted. I didn't deserve what happened to me. I was clear enough, nodody helped me but that was not my fault. I don't have to feel guilty because nobody rescued me, I had nothing to do with that, I could not have run faster or yelled louder (which I have told myself in the past) I could not have fought harder. If I had heard this story from someone else I would have hugged them, supported them, and told them the same thing, that they were not to blame. I have always been nicer to other people than to myself. I am trying to learn to love myself. But after feeling so worthless for most of my life it is a hard road. I am not perfect, I don't have to be. I am a kind and loving person, and I need to be kind and loving to myself as well.

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