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socialized medicine?
July 18, 2007
4:00 pm
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Matteo
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Thank you for your enlightening speach, Loralei.

It illustrates perfectly the lack of compassion and empathy towards other human beings I was earlier talking about. Your "own" opinion accidentaly aligned with the neo-conservative school of thought perpetuating the myths about "equal" opportunities (only reasonably of course), "deserving" and "non-deserving" poor, judging and blaming the victims, ignoring numerous forms of opression and discrimination which determine people's position within the society, shortly - lacking any sociological imagination - explains why there is no universal medicare in US and why most probably there won't be any for the long time to come.

July 18, 2007
5:08 pm
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risingfromtheashes
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loralei,

copying and pasting for ease of answering some things you said -

The people who struggle the most to survive are those in the lower middle class range. They make too much money to qualify for all the above benefits, yet don't have enough income to afford health insurance and decent housing, etc. I think these are the ones who could use a break*******I fall into this chasm you speak of. I call myself working poor. I make too much money to qualify for assistance of any kind, yet make too little to get ahead. I "get by" and "do without" frequently. God forbid something catastrophic happen, like major medical issues or natural disaster that destroys my home or car.

IMO, the people who do not take full responsibility for themselves and their actions are generally the ones who wind up struggling financially. The causes of poverty in the U.S. usually stem from************just above, you state that the people who struggle the most are the ones that fall in the middle range, yet in this paragraph and subsequent points, you state that lack of desire to do anything about their circumstances is the reason for struggling. I am a LITTLE confused here!!!!

Further - I DO struggle. I came from a wealthy community, where we were the poor. The only reason we existed there was because my family bought our home long before the influx of wealthy manhattanites took over. I went to a blue ribbon public school, wearing thrift shop hand me downs while kids around me wore clothes from the hottest stores in the mall and NY city. I have been self supporting since I graduated. I take full responsibility for my finances.

1) a lack of education - public education is available to everyone through the 12th grade. You do not need a college degree to succeed in life. But you do need a solid foundation of the basics. Unfortunately, too many don't take advantage of this source and waste their time and everyone else's because of laziness and lack of ambition and personal responsibility*************not all education is created equal, first off. I was educated in a blue ribbon school. My daughter attended this school as well as others in our county. I KNOW for FACT that all education is not created equal. I was on honor roll. I took advanced placement classes. I am ambitious. I am FAR from lazy. I have been working almost full time since I was 15, while going to school. I am STILL making low wages. I STILL struggle to find a job. I STILL hear, time and time again, without college, I can't hire you. I am "stuck" in the retail gig...which I happen to like, but it never pays enough. I make decent money for my area, but I had to move to an impoverished area in order to survive. The only reason I make what I do is that I have a better education than the locals. The locals here are REALLY stuck...as they have sub standard education and high paying jobs are rare around here. It keeps people stuck. I don't really appreciate your generalization, if you can see. I think that saying "all you need is basic education" in this day and age is very ignorant. You can work at mcdonald's with this education, but make only $7.50 an hour, which gets you NOTHING when your rent is $800 a month.

2) having more children than you can afford to support. I don't care what your religion is, the rest of the country shouldn't have to pay for your decision to have too many kids.....I won't disagree with this one.

3) becoming an addict of alcohol and/or drugs. Enough said....won't disagree with this either.

4) spending your money foolishly, running up a huge credit card debt, living beyond your means....I ran up my credit card debt...on what? food, toiletries, daycare, car payments, insurance, gasoline, heating oil, electricity. I was not spending foolishly...I just wasn't making enough to get by. Our winter here got wicked cold...my heating bill one month was $1050...for four weeks alone...my rent is only $475. I conserve electricity. I shop at discount stores for food. I use coupons. I carpool. I barter. I grow my own veggies. I STILL get behind on payments. Even with what I make and how little I pay in rent, I still struggle. God forbid my daughter need sneakers...she had to go months with holes in them because I simply could not get $50 up for sneakers.

as I said, I think it's ignorant to think that all you need is a basic level education and effort to find a job. I know I am not the only one that could argue this point.

I go back to my first question - could you clarify how you say that the ones who struggle the most are the ones that fall into that "gap"...or was your subsequent post your explanation of why we fall into that "gap"? cuz if that's the case, I also beg to differ.

I know MANY who abuse the system and teach their kids to abuse the system...I have other distant family members who have, as well as friends of friends who do. I have half a mind to turn them in, but even that does nothing. Tried it once and got nowhere. I know our state cracked down on it and you no longer get additional money per kid and you have a time limit you can receive aide.

these people who milk the system then turn to disability as their only option, so they can remain on state aid.

that's the part that is sad.

oh, and don't get me started on the illegals who are here, that work for the low wage jobs and collect state aid while here...not paying taxes and making it hard for the rest of us.

July 18, 2007
6:33 pm
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Hi Matteo

I disagree with your statement that Loralei's points illustrate a lack of compassion and empathy towards other people.

Not supporting a plan to implement socialized medicine in no way implies a lack of compassion or empathy towards other people. Conservative people tend to believe that we do best when we take care of ourselves and that this should be encouraged.

I'm very wary of socialized medicine myself for reasons I had stated above.

Something needs to be done, no doubt.

Loralei's suggestions: outlaw pharmeceutical lobbys, set caps on medical lawsuits, and perhaps audit hospitals to find out where all the money is going-

These haven't been tried and seem to address the very exact problems we have here in America.

I've a question for you Matteo. You're not in America right? Does what we do here affect you?

free

July 18, 2007
6:54 pm
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Matteo
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Compassion and empathy are contradictory to the belief that "we do best when we take care of ourselves". Surely "you" do the best when takinfg care only of your own interests, forgetting others. It reminds me about the poster/sticker: "Compassionate conservatism is an oxymoron. Bush is just a moron".

It is not your concern where I am, free. This is a public forum for people from all over the World. Yes, whatever happens in US afftects the rest of the World and vice versa, it always did, and especially at this time and age, and that includes me. Wake up, free, we don't live on different planets and your right wing righteous "moral majority" agenda affects negatively many people from around the globe, especialy those underprivledged.

July 18, 2007
6:56 pm
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Matteo
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sorry for the typo: taking care

July 18, 2007
6:57 pm
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Loralei
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Rising,

You are in the "working poor" class as you called it. That's the group I do have compassion for because you are actually working and not sitting at home wanting the govt to do it all. The ones I have a beef with are those who do nothing and expect the rest of us to take care of them. Taxpayers spend a fortune for all forms of welfare for that group. And that welfare mentality is perpetuated generation after generation within the same family. That is a cycle that needs to be broken.

Unfortunately, where you live may be what's keeping you in a paycheck to paycheck situation. There are many areas that have been taken over by the wealthy, driving up property taxes and making housing unaffordable. Granted, the people who sold their property to them probably made a killing. But look at your heating bill!! That is insane. Your money is literally going up in smoke. Maybe you should start looking for work in a warmer climate. Either that, or find a small, well-insulated home.

A college degree is not a cure-all. And I've known people with a degree working the fast-food counter, too. Yes, you have an advantage if you have one, but how do you account for all the self-made millionaires who don't have degrees?

I don't have the answer to your dilemma, I wish I did. But your locale may be your biggest problem due to the cold climate and lack of job opportunities.

But to answer the others, socialism does not solve anything because someone still has to pay the tab. I don't know where people get the idea that socialized medicine is going to somehow make it "free". Someone is paying for hospitals, doctors, nurses, medicine, etc. It will somehow be extracted from your paycheck, don't ever doubt that.

July 18, 2007
7:26 pm
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Loralei
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Matteo,

I find your "compassion and empathy" in direct opposition to your hate-filled opinion of the U.S. I am not a member of the "moral majority" and I'm about as far from being "right wing rightous" as you can get. But just because our government is highly imperfect, it doesn't make socialism the answer. Our government may suck, but I bet it's way better than yours.

July 18, 2007
8:32 pm
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Matteo
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A negative or different opinion is not necesaitly hate-filled opinion; that's your assumption, Loralei. Thanks god, the "moral majority" is actually in the minority, so expressing a negative opinion about them by any means doesn't equal hating the entire American people and I really don't appreciate this insinuation.

You might consider yourself far from the right wing, but your opinions stated in your previous post suggest quite otherwise.

Welfare state is not the same as socializm. There is a difference between socializm and western concept of a welfare state which still take place under capitalizm. You seem to be confusing those terms and I don't know where the statement about socializm being an answer comes from.

I am not into as free would probably call it a "pissing match" about which or who's government is better, but I can assure you that you would loose the bet; it is hard to find a less democratic government than yours in the entire western world.

July 18, 2007
10:22 pm
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Loralei
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Matteo,

For someone who accused me of a "lack of compassion and empathy towards other human beings" without any basis whatsoever, I can assure you, I don't appreciate THAT accusation.

And for your information, the U.S. is a republic, not a democracy.

BTW, the name of this thread is socialized medicine. You are the one who is confused.

Why are you so afraid to reveal your home country? You cast stones at mine, yet you hide behind your anonymous country. How can anyone engage in a meaningful debate when you so conveniently hide anything we can counter with?

July 19, 2007
12:17 am
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bevdee
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Kroika,

This thread has interested me because my health care is through my tribe, and partly funded by the federal government. It's a little different than Medicare or Medicaid.

Gosh - this topic has just seemed to spread like a -- wildfire.

July 19, 2007
12:23 am
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hey bev,

I am very interested in this topic... but right now I am feeling very reactive about some of the things that have been posted and I will refrain from posting my thoughts.

I think that Michael Moore's film "Sicko" is likely to be sparking conversations like this all over the place, and that's good because I believe those conversations need to happen.

wildfire.... yeah.

July 19, 2007
12:26 am
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How does healthcare through the tribe work?

Does the tribe pay for insurance or the care itself?

Is it good care?

free

July 19, 2007
12:34 am
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Matteo:

I asked if you were from America and if this issue affects you kuz I'm having a hard time comprehending why you'd jump into a conversation with such hostility if the issue doesn't even affect you. Just feeling grumpy?

free

July 19, 2007
1:07 am
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I googled "socialized medicine does it work" and this article came up- written by: "Mr. Lemieux is an economist and author living in Montreal."

hmmmmm.......

http://www.theadvocates.org/fr.....3lemi.html

free

July 19, 2007
1:25 am
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well, I've been reading for a while now and regarding Canada's socialized health care system- the following two posts seem to sum up Canadian healthcare-

afsarge writes: Wednesday, June, 27, 2007 5:34 AM
Free lunch
Liberals always think its cheaper when its "free" w/o realizing they are still paying for it. Its interesting that people like Moore support programs like this considering he won't have to be included in those standing in line. Liberal elites and their love of socialism, always amazes me how these people enjoy the fruits of capitalism, and yet embrace socialism. I'm sure Moore and his crowd will never explain to the public just how such a program will be paid for. Gov't is expensive enough now, and yet we are expected to think a new massive program won't bust the budget? Who's kidding whom? To all the rich liberals, put your money where your mouth is. Start your own program of free healthcare. Show us all how its done.
Email It | Print It | Flag as Offensive

AudiR10 writes: Wednesday, June, 27, 2007 7:04 AM
Amen
If anyone is in doubt about the truth of this description of Canadian health care, I invite you to come and spend a summer weekend in any emergency room in the GTA. Take the occasional stroll into the parking lot too and look at the rows of ambulances parked there because the people inside them cannot be treated by anybody inside those doors. Think of yourself fruitlessly calling for an ambulance for your dying Mama while all the ambulances sit helplessly in the parking lot of Toronto General Hospital, filled to capacity.

If you can't make your way to Toronto this summer, here is a thought experiment for you:

Close your eyes and visualize the USPS at Christmastide. It is noon on the 16th of December. Imagine the line snaking clear down the hall, out the door, and into the parking lot.

Now imagine you at the end of this line, not with a sack of Christmas cards to mail, but with a baby suffering from a high fever and convulsions. Now it is three hours later. Imagine yourself and your baby just making your way inside the door, with two people at the counter waiting on customers and 75 customers ahead of you...and it is lunch time for the Help.

I say forget Canada as a potential model.

Britain maybe?

somebody mentioned Australia and Germany I think.

Will check those out.

free

July 19, 2007
9:30 am
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Matteo
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This is not really a discussion. Or maybe it is a discussion american government style: "you are either with us or against us". There is no middle ground. And if you are not with "us" you will be attacked, accused of being full of hatred, hostility, you will be called grumpy, confused and afraid, your words will be twisted and clearly stated arguments not heard. After all you will be told it's not your business anyway if you don't live in US and you shouldn't even voice your opinion. Moreover, you should reveal where you presently live so we can discuss your government, which has nothing to do with the topic.

Perhaps that's wasn't cpt1212's intention, but right now this thread became about praising the best medical system in western world which is of course in US, supported by "compassionate" conservatists' agenda.

Please carry on, Loralei and free. Your medical care system, I am sure, suits you the best. Too bad there are so many people living in the richest country in the world, who have no access to basic medical care and no assets to sell to afford it; but they are not you.

July 19, 2007
10:51 am
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Check out this link:

http://www.ceri.com/dean2.htm

I think this guy came up with some good suggestions as to fixing the system we have.

I'm old enough to recall a time when medical care wasn't so terribly expensive. Maybe we just need to revert back to that time in history. Why is it that when you involve lawyers and insurance companies, the price of everything skyrockets?

July 19, 2007
2:40 pm
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Kroika

I would be interested to hear your recollections of health care, especially in the last 25 years or so. When you are ready. Maybe.

My perspective is different than that of many, because I'm not of the belief that the US is above reproach, and because of my experience inside health care and as the recipient of PHS. I have been in the health care industry for 25 years, and at the end of my first year of training, (in the US), DRG's were implemented- and IMO, this is what caused the whole system to snowball downhill to the point it is today. My recent training in medical coding has shed a lot of light on this subject.

Matteo, I am very interested to hear how socialized medicine has worked in the countries you have lived in or visited.

Maybe when the fire is out ....

July 19, 2007
3:23 pm
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I, too, am very interested in how socialized medicine has worked in countries Matteo has lived in, and have asked posters to tell us about it. But for some reason, those questions have gone ignored, answered only by kroika. I am most interested in what citizens of socialized medicine have to say rather than propaganda, and this is why I've asked.

Ignored, or maybe just overlooked also, are questions about how tribal healthcare works. I'd ask what DRG's are, but I'm learning that it's maybe best to google things than ask. If I want an answer anyhow.

I don't see a "fire" here, I see some people for socialized medicine, some not for it, and some trying to learn about it.

I looked over the thread, and with all due respect Matteo, you attacked a perfectly reasonable post of Loraleis, and then attacked me for saying that I don't think her views mean she's not compassionate towards human beings, and then you attacked the U.S. government. You were questioned about it and then called names. You've preached a great deal about abuse on these threads, it seems it's past time to take a look in the mirror Matteo and think about your own posts.

I'm really interested in this issue kuz I can't afford healthcare for my children. In the U.S. patients can't be turned away due to lack of ability to pay. this means that an emergency involving my children could result in astronomical healthcare bills that I won't be able to pay and so I could lose my home. It also means that I have to juggle bills as I'm doing right now to have their semi-annual dental exam and cleaning, in addition to any doctor's visits. My 17 year old's Depo-Provera shot is gonna cost me 145 dollars. Just to walk over to the lab and have a nurse give her a shot.

So I'm hoping that something will be done, and the best way to enact change is to be a part of it. That's all I'm trying to do. Understand it, and be a part of it.

Not attack anybody's opinions or government much less fight with anybody. Including you matteo, so please, just back off.

Again, I'm very interrested to hear how socialized medicine works where you live and your experiences with it. I don't however, appreciate being called various names for questioning it. So please, just back off.

free

July 19, 2007
3:28 pm
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Loralei
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Bev, I'm not sure who you think here believes the US is above reproach?? I think most everyone agrees that our health care situation needs fixing. Just not all of us believe that socialized medicine is the answer to our problems.

What is PHS and DRG? Not familiar with those acronyms.

July 19, 2007
3:40 pm
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This is what wikepedia says about DRG's:

Diagnosis-Related Group (DRG) is a system to classify hospital cases into one of approximately 500 groups, also referred to as DRGs, expected to have similar hospital resource use, developed for Medicare as part of the prospective payment system. DRGs are assigned by a "grouper" program based on ICD diagnoses, procedures, age, sex, and the presence of complications or comorbidities. DRGs have been used since 1983 to determine how much Medicare pays the hospital, since patients within each category are similar clinically and are expected to use the same level of hospital resources. DRGs may be further grouped into Major Diagnostic Categories (MDCs).

The original objective of diagnosis related groupings (DRGs) was to develop a patient classification system that related types of patients treated to the resources they consumed. Since the introduction of DRGs in the early 1980’s, the healthcare industry has evolved and developed an increased demand for a patient classification system that can serve its original objective at a higher level of sophistication and precision. To meet those evolving needs, the objective of the DRG system had to expand in scope. Today, there are several different DRG systems that have been developed in the US. They include:

Medicare DRG
Refined DRGs (RDRG)
All Patient DRGs (APDRG)
Severity DRGs (SDRG)
All Patient Refined DRGs (APRDRG)
International-Refined DRGs (IRDRG)
The system was created by Robert Barclay Fetter and John Devereaux Thompson at Yale University with the material support of the former Health Care Financing Administration (HCFA), now called the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS). DRGs were intended to describe all types of patients in an acute hospital setting. The DRGs encompassed both elderly patients as well as newborn, pediatric and adult populations. In 1983 CMS assumed responsibility for the maintenance and modifications of these DRG definitions. Since that time, the focus of all Medicare DRG modifications instituted by CMS has been on problems relating primarily to the elderly population.

July 19, 2007
4:38 pm
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free,

Thank you for the explanation of DRGs. And especially thank you for recognizing that my posts were meant to be helpful. Why they were interpreted as they were is beyond me.

I think it's good that you are researching this subject. I've been trying to find some affordable health insurance for my employees and the ones with families are beyond most budgets.

It seems that all the things that have been done to try to "fix" the high cost of health care has backfired. I recall when HMO's first came out. The philosophy of preventative medicine so you don't wind up in the hospital, sounded good. But a couple of years later, those premiums went through the roof. People started going to the doctor more frequently than ever and I wonder if the trips to the hospital for "serious" care, were proportionately reduced. Also, the HMO copayments kept rising in an effort to keep patients from running to the doctor's office over every little thing.

Another problem I have with the medical profession, is the excessive cost for fancy equipment and prodedures that benefit so few. Is it truly cost effective to have super expensive procedures performed on one person when that same amount could have paid for such basic things as antibiotics for dozens and dozens of people? I know the argument is that you can't put value on a life. But if the cost of health care is so high that those dozens of people can't afford to go to the doctor to get a shot, then aren't you devaluing their life? I think this is the conundrum that we are facing.

Health insurance, just like auto insurance, used to be very affordable. Hospitalization was the only health insurance that existed. Individuals generally paid for their doctor's visits and prescriptions. Did that factor help to keep the cost low? But when insurance started covering those things, did the mentality change with pharmeceutical companies saying that they can charge whatever they want because the insurance will cover it? Or did the popularity of lawsuits to "get rich quick" start us on our downhill slope?

I personally think that greed is the root cause of most of these issues. The pharmeceutical companies are a money making machine. Lawyers ... what can I say? Insurance companies have to make their profits. And the general population wants to grab everything for nothing and abuse what is available.

I think we can learn from history. If we can just look back and examine when and why the cost has skyrocketed, then maybe we can begin to reverse the damage. But I'm not holding my breath.

July 19, 2007
5:24 pm
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somebody wrote above: "there are so many people living in the richest country in the world, who have no access to basic medical care and no assets to sell to afford it"

is this true? I have never heard of anybody NOt having access to medical care in the U.S. It's against the law to even turn away illegals as far as I know. My own husband, before we married and I put him on my insurance, had all the basic care he needed at the county health clinic-shots, diabetic stuff, minor things. I put him on my insurance kuz we bought a house and that's an asset that could be seized if we couldn't pay in the event of major medical bills. When I was in college I used the county clinic for well-woman and birth control- never paid a dime. Only problem I saw with the county clinic was that sometimes I waited 6-8 hours to be seen. Sometimes they didn't get to me before closing so I had to come back the next day. This is something I'm afraid of with socialized medicine, kuz I gotta work and raise a family- don't wanna hang out at the clinic for a day or two wenever something comes up.

So- are there people out there in the U.S. who have no access to medical care?

I remember when I first graduated college in 1989 and went to work- health insurance was a given benefit-completely employer paid. Minor medical care I paid up front and submitted reciepts to the insurance company for reimbursement. But the cost of a doctor visit was nearly a third what it is now. Major medical- just showed the card to the hospital receptionist and the insurance was billed. Whatever they didn't pay then we got a bill for- it was always reasonable and could be paid.

I really think what caused insurance rates to hike so high was all the lawsuits. people have become so sue-happy- get something for nothing. ching ching!

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July 19, 2007
6:20 pm
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PHS stands for "Physician's Health Services" and is the old name for "Health Net", an HMO that I myself belong to.

free

July 21, 2007
11:56 am
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Just read a few more letters on Michael Moore's site about people's experience with medical care in Canada contrasted to experiences in the U.S.

If interested, check out http://www.michaelmoore.com/si.....the-truth/

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