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Sew Confused, to the next step.
June 14, 2006
4:05 am
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sewunique
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Please be aware that in my attempts to open this thread I put my vulnerability on the line here because of the situation I am presenting. All I ask is for posters to give me that respect and respectfully post the same consideration. I may set precedence in this discussion. Then again, I may abrupty close this thread, at least in my mind.

I am not entirely confident I should open this, but I am a seeker of answers and to resolve a broken relationship.

~Sew~

June 14, 2006
4:14 am
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Free,

Thank you for your kindness and in extending yourself. I am not sure if I can or should do this, but right now am willing to work on a perplexing and heartwrenching problem.

I am not sure if anything can comeof this.

For you and others; welcome to my world.

I believe this should remain up in Libs due to the subject matter and my own vulnerability and protection. I also trust most who post up here and believe they have good hearts, intellignece and insight.

I am not sure which questions to post first as it is now after 3 AM.

SEW

June 14, 2006
4:31 am
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This will make life easier.

Questions:

1) If a man takes a picture of a young female, fully clothed, posing in suggestive positions; erotica or porn? Or, is either okay to take these pictures secretly hiding this activity by a spouse?

2) If she is consenting; and of legal age is this harmful or harmless photgraphic art material and activity?

sewunique
13-Jun-06

3) If a young female who is strikenly attractive, who wanted to be a model, poses for a male and after years of slightly suggestive pictures taken, with attention bestowed upon her where she finally has a picture done that would be beyond her scope of behavior be considered wrong?

4) Has she been taken advantage of?

5) If she turns and wears sexy clothing hidden by a pillow to show only her skin be erotica or porn? Whether erotica or porn, is this normal behavior?

6) Was she coerced into this behavior? If so or not, does it make it more pornographical as she could be seen as an "object" for another's pleasure or wants?

7) If any of these activities questioned here are done secretly, does it make it more like pornography or just hobby art? If this is done secretly, what is the intention of hiding it? To protect whom?

Questions to start. Feel "free", Free, to clip and paste.

Sorry to begin so vague, I cannot spell it out yet.

Sew

June 14, 2006
5:16 am
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8) If any woman desires to have pictures taken that are erotica, so she can present them to her fiance, and has good intentions, trusts the photographer, yet the photographer deems sexual delight from this activity, is he wrong for taking the pictures or just intentionally taking the pictures for his personal pleasure?

9) Has he misguided her or broken his trust with her with his secret intentions?

June 14, 2006
6:07 am
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free2choose
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Here are my answers in chronological order, respective to the questions posted:

1) Any random man, with any random (of age) woman, in the context presented (purely suggestive, sensual photos), I would say "Erotica". Sexuality and sensuality is the context of the pictures, yet they are "classy" and not overly vulgar.

(This situation changes IMO, when the photographer is the father of the girl in the pictures. Then, whether it is classified as erotica or porn, it is still inappropriate due to the relationship of the people.)

I do not believe it to be OK to hide anything that really matters from a spouse. Marriage communication should remain open and honest in the majority of all situaions and circumstances. If a person is hiding something from a spouse, to me this implies knowledge that the spouse would have a problem with what is going on, and feelings of guilt and/or deciet.

2)IMHO, for any woman on the planet to be the subject of erotic art and/or pornography, there is possible harms/traumas, if the woman is emotionally not stable enough to make informed consent, or to handle the vulnerability of having her sexuality exposed so completely.

3)I answered this already on the other thread. My answer remains the same.

4) Same as question 3.

5) You must be clear, are you asking is it normal for any random woman to be in this situation, or for a daughter to be in this situation with a step-father.

If it is any random woman, I would say Yes, given the situation and the context, and "normal" meaning, "does it happen often". (We also have to make sure we define "normal" the same.)

If it is a daughter father thing, I would say NO, this is inappropriate.

6) Only she knows if she was coerced or not.

A sexy woman walking down the street fully clothed can become the "object" of many's "pleasure or wants". That woman is not Pornographic, or Erotic, in the sense of literature and movies. She is just a sexy woman.

The "objectification" in real Porn is when real live women (or men) are treated and viewed as little more than Objects, to be used and consumed. The focus is not on the complete HUMANITY of the person, rather the focus is purely on the sexuality, and how much that can be exploited. This exploitation of sexuality is what makes something pornographic, IMO.

Any mature random woman consenting to be the subject of erotica (which celebrates and glorifies not only sex, but the sensuality of life!) is simply making a personal choice. One they have a right to make.

7)I do not think that "secrets" make something more or less pornography.

I do think that hiding things from your spouse is inappropriate, and quite frankly, chicken shit.

I would think in this case, the intention of hiding it would be to decieve, to continue the behavior without nagging or arguing, to avoid confrontation, and because he knew it was wrong. I think the only person that deception protected, was him.

8)Ummmm....I would guess that most photographers, writers, and film makers of both erotica and porn take some measure of satisfaction in thier work, including sexual satisfaction or gratification.

Do I think it is OK for Daddy to get off on taking sexual photos of his daughter, HELL NO. He shouldn't take them in the first damn place.

9) Random man and random woman. No, I do not think so, unless a deal was between them that he would not get the pictures for his personal use, and he kept them secretly for his own pleasure.

Daddy-daughter....the trust was broken at the snap of the first picture. NOT OK, ever, at all.

-----------------

Sew, this is the best I could do, knowing the small amount you have given (which I know probly feels HUGE!)

Way to go, on breaking the silence! I hope that you are helped.

Much respect and love,
Erica

June 15, 2006
3:26 am
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Sew, You still around?

Did you run away?

You OK??

E

June 15, 2006
4:09 am
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Say, Free,

I was about to call it a nite. I was reading Ladeska's thread and some information. Takes so long in reading here sometimes.

while I am here, I just wanted to tell you thank you for your time and very thought out answers. It took alot of time and energy to post all you did. I am eternally grateful for your input.

There is much here to think about of what I wrote and what you in return gave back.

I wish I had just one simple question here to ask. Instead, I have multiple questions. The more I ask, the more I have to question. It is endless. It is overwhelming.

Then I freeze up and cannot think more into it. I feel like I am mute and have no sensation. Sometimes, most times it doesn't even hurt. It just is.

The most that hurts is not having contact with my daughter. It hurts to wonder what and how she may be thinking about all this. It hurts thinking about the distance between us and not being able to even bring this up, let alone her answering my phone calls or ignoring my emails.

It hurts as to why is she mad at me leaving the State to find peace and blaming me for leaving my marriage and not being strong to handle this and "abandoning her" (again she says). I never did, so am puzzled to what she maeans by this.

Ok, I am and have been a lousey mother even though I thought I was supportive, getting her involvee in band, sync swiming, forensics, me being her Girl Scout leader, encouraging her and trying to do what was best. I failed. I was a bad mom. I protected her from my abusive mother, her grandmother, now she is doing to me what I did to my mom, which is to ignore and no contact. I tried to protect her and mysself from the abuse I suffered. Whichever way I turned, it would have failed as I was not brought up know what a good parent was, so I smoothered my daughter with love. I am one of these wretched mothers here (though I never thought I was) that folks talk about, maybe? Maybe?

I did not protect my daughter from her step father. I did not see it and did not believe it when I saw the pictures. Impossible it happened.

I need a roadmap to know which way to go, which way to start. I cannot organize it out how to proceed. It seems all gooblygook, mish mash.

In short, I need my daughter, I want to give her my love and support. She will not respond.

I need counseling. I cannot find any appropriate counselor in this area or who is willing to take this on for counseling. It is hopeless. It is best I am here alone.

SewUniquelyhorrific

June 15, 2006
9:09 am
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((((((((((SEW))))))))))

June 16, 2006
3:51 am
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free2choose
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Sew...

Wow...I can hear the panic and frustration and self hatred just snowballing with every sentence of that last post!!!

YOU ARE NOT HORRIFIC!!!!

You are a good, decent, well intentioned person, who did the best you could, at the time, with what you had to give.

STOP beating yourself into a bloody emotional pulp!

You do not deserve it.

Calm down, take some deep breaths, try something that centers you back on the ground.

I am so sorry that you have all this!!!

But you are strong, courageous, and brave. You have faith, and that faith will lead you, if you follow.

I hear your pain, I do. ANd I do not have any answers, except that I KNOW you did the best you could, and you do not need to mutilate your own soul out of any guilt or shame you feel.

You can not change the past.

You know you need therapy. Throw yourself into the task of finding it.

Help you help yourself.

Redirect that energy you are spending in panic and self doubt, and use it to get yourself what you need to get better.

You CAN do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

((((((((((((((((((HUGE HUGS TO YOU))))))))))))))))))

Erica

June 16, 2006
1:29 pm
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((((sew))))) I'm sorry I missed this thread...I don't get over to Libs very often. I am so sorry you are still hurting over this situation, and I know it will not be an easy thing to move past. Your relationship with your daughter is so very important to you, and she has chosen to distance herself from you. But, in my opinion, that does not make you any less a wonderful mother. You did all the things a good mom should do...the fact that her stepdad crossed the line is not your fault. Can you honestly say that you knew it was going on, and you ignored it? No, I don't think so. I think you were completely shocked when you found out that he had put her in such a position, and took a stand right then and there against what had happened. You stood up for her as soon as you were aware. Am I remembering correctly here, that she does not feel that her stepdad did anything inappropriate, and continues to take his side in this? If so, that is her choice. He is a master manipulator, and I'm sure he has convinced her that you are the crazy one. My ex has convinced almost everyone I know that I am a horrible person, but I know in my heart that I am not.

I really wish you peace in this, sew...I want you to be able to let go and move past it. I know it is very difficult when your relationship with your daughter is in such turmoil. I will keep you in my prayers, and hope that she sees your ex for who he is, and what he did. I know that it will not be easy for you to wait for her to come to that realization...I wish I knew how the situation could change. Hang in there, and know that this is not your fault. (((sew)))

June 16, 2006
1:46 pm
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((((((((((((sew))))))))))))))

June 16, 2006
2:47 pm
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(((((more hugs for Sew))))))))))

June 16, 2006
4:35 pm
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Thank you all. I keep avoiding this thread today, but I have to give my appreciation back to you all.

I tell you, if any of you were in person and gave me a hug for real live, I would spontainously burst into tears. It is like that when I am being so strong and upper lip about something, that the simpliest true form of affection or caring causes me to open the floodgates.

So I go for avoidance.

And just to tell you that a simple hug means a lot. Just stopping by to read means a lot, even those who read and don't post back, I feel others are here.

Free and Ready, your words are so encouraging, but am overwhelmed what to say at the moment, but I have read and will read again your words over, they hold such support and wisdom, that , and the hugs, are what I hold onto with my hope things will work out in the future.

What can one truly say here? So far I have interviewed counselors who are not up to it.

But you guys, please don't stop posting here if you have a thought, idea or question forme to ponder on, okay?

I spent hours last nite looking for a therapist in my area. So far, just looking and reading. But it is a start.

(((((((((group hug)))))))))

Sew

June 16, 2006
4:43 pm
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I know my parents were abusive and not nurturing. Dah

Just thought of this today. Since 1983 when I first met my husband, thru the marriage, only once did he meet my mother. That was at my grandmother's funeral. After that, he never saw my mother as we cleaned out my grandmother's stuff. It was me, little petite me, who drove the UHaul van (stick shift too)in a snowstorm with my daughter to pick up grammie's furniture. He never lifted a finger.

He met my dad at my daughter's wedding. Then when we first dated, my dad drove me 300 miles to be able to visit him while we both were visiting our parents in florida. The guy couldn't use his mom's car or rent a car to drive up to see me????????

It was all about his family and his mother.

How does that make me feel you ask?

One word; DEVALUED.

Humpf

Sew

June 16, 2006
6:31 pm
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sew...I thought of you today. My daughter has been at her dad's for almost two weeks now. I called her today to see how she was doing, as I do almost daily. She barely spoke to me. One word answers. I cannot even begin to tell you the horrible things he tells her about me, and I am not there to defend myself. He has told her that I took all of his money...when in reality he left with over $100,000 in cash, forced him out of our home...when in reality he left voluntarily and turned over his keys, and that I had affairs...when I didnt. He told her that I poisoned his food, for God's sake. He is mentally unstable, but he is her father, and after two weeks of living with him, I know she must believe some of what he says. I feel that I am losing her, little by little. My son will not spend much time with his dad, and my ex blames me for that, too. He tells my daughter that I have poisoned her brother against him. I am in a lose-lose situation...

I realize that I cannot compare my situation to yours, because I do still have my daughter with me most of the time, as she is only 12. But I feel her slipping away from me...I can see her turning to alcohol, and sex, and possibly drugs to comfort herself when she is confused about whether anyone loves her at all. She has changed SO MUCH in the year since we divorced...dressing differently, interested in boys, make up, clothes. It scares me...

No one ever said being a mother was going to be easy.

Sorry I'm venting on your thread...

June 16, 2006
6:59 pm
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((((((((((Ready))))))))))))

You can vent here all you want or need to.

I understand your concern and what you may view as the future handwriting on the wall for so many possibilities and it is scary and it hurts.

It is hard to know what to say to her and what not to say. Twelve, the difficult years of child raising truly begin now. As you try harder to get in all yu feel you should before they leave the nest, they pull away at the same time you have to hang on. Does that make sense? Can't word it right today.

If I may I have two suggestions.

1) when yu call her next time, just ask her how is she doing and maybe ask her to let you know when she wants to come home. If she clams up,with short answers, you might just ask her if "did you want me to pick you up and bring you home?" she might want to stay, or not.

You make sure your mind is clear and unemotional when you ask her so she won't "hear it" what ever it may be in your voice.

Then again, U could be wrong. but you know he is going to make all sorts of comments and ineundos whenever he can, Make sure she can vent or is given some private time when she comes back home. This is hard for her. I know you know this.

2) Get into personal counseling just for YOU so you can work on these daily issues and all the frustration you need to share. Or....post here at AAC along the daily trials and tribulations of raising teenagers! smile

Excuse me if I forgot if you were in counseling, but I think a good counselor is worth gold

And remember, no one said you had to be perfect. You are a good mom, a great mother and that is what truly counts. You took your children out of an explosive harmful situation and are providing them whith the most secure loving enviornment for them now. Kuddos for that. It is just another stone in the pathway and you will get over that. You will!!!

I am spending so much time here I am neglecting emails form friends! Time to catch up!

Sew

June 16, 2006
7:02 pm
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err...."Then again, U could be wrong"

sorry should be.....I could be wrong on this idea.

June 17, 2006
2:32 pm
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sew...how are you doing today? Hope you're making progress on this issue. Baby steps...it takes time. Be patient with yourself, and with your daughter. (((sew)))

June 17, 2006
11:23 pm
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((((((Sew)))))))

((((((Ready)))))

They will figure it out, trust in God or your higher power and remember, you can only do the best you can! You have nothing to feel guilty about!!

June 18, 2006
1:41 am
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ready and sew,

I have been out of town and just returned home and read this thread or I would have posted sooner. I am not a mother, but I am the emotional and financial supporter for my two nephews, 13 and 15, who have had a difficult childhood due to poor parenting. I am also struggling to come to terms with my own parents. So I just wanted to give my two cents, because you both have taken the time and concern to give me thoughtful replies in the past.

sew,

i have only recently started reading the threads again, after a long absence and so i only know what i have read here of your situation, so my comments will brief. I don't know how old your daughter is but I have an impression that she is late teens or ealy 20s, (i am not sure why and please let me know if i am wrong). I have issues with my parents and while they don't have anything do what you are going thru but what i have learned thru my personal journey is that when i was in my teens and early 20s it was very easy to have negative, concrete feelings about my parents because even though i have always been a very empathetic person i had not developed the skill to always see the gray areas, or the nuances of situations. It is something that developed much more as i grew older. it is no longer so easy to think as my father as just an angry person, i know am able to see much more than that and the complexities that make up a person and that decisions and situations are often more complicated than they appear. I also know that even though i have distanced myself from my parents there is always that part of me that no matter what they have done what my interpretation is that if they didn't try it would be devasting and would also confirm my negative feelings. so i said all that to say i know if may not help the pain you have now but give her time and don't stop trying.

ready,

as i said i am the primary caregiver for my nephews and they have had an extremely traumatic past and i am very vigilant in watching for any signs that they may be impacted or struggling and one thing i have had to learn as the boys grow older is "sometimes it is what it is" . teenagers/preteens are moody and naturally start to pull away. i say all that to say your daughter has been away for 2 weeks and while it sounds like you have very reasons for fearing that her response is due to being brainwashed you have not yet been able to verify that. it may be that she is starting to cross over into those moody, monosyllabic years. also even though my nephews have been treated and discarded by their parents and know intellectually that they are not doing what they should do in many aspects of their lives but they still have that need to be accepted by them and when they are with them begin to buy in. This is not so much the case with the 16 yr. old he is being to understand their shortcomings on another level and to make his own opinions. It is something that the 13 yr old still going through but this appropriate at that stage of development. also when they have spent time with them and then come back for a few days they do seem like different children in that they are still using the personality (for lack of a better word) that they used to please their parent. but that wears off after a few days and then they are my pleasant sunny boys. so i said all that to say don't worry yet and it sounds like you are a good parent and that your daughter is with you most of the time and that matters, but that doesn't mean she still doesn't have a need to please her father and that when she comes back home she will will feel her bond with you and if her father is trying to tell her.

so i am not sure if any of this helpful for either you, but just my observations.

June 18, 2006
3:47 pm
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thank you free...that means a lot to me (((free)))

cpt...welcome back, we've missed you! Thank you for your input...I do tend to read into things sometimes, and what might be normal teenage stuff I think is something else altogether. She knows I love her, and that she is my first priority. Girls and their mothers - not an easy combination. I'll hang in there, though, and keep letting her know how much I love her. I just worry...

June 19, 2006
11:43 pm
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ready,
Isn't 12 years old leagal age where a child can refuse to go see their other parent, as in her dad? If he is telling her these things and lieing to her, then it is not good that she is with him. He obviously does not care about that...I'm sorry, do not mean to be rude, but if this is what is happening then she is being hurt. What does your counselor say? I get upset when i see this happening and i have seen a lot of it. And my ex did the same thing, it reeked such havoc and confusion with the boys when they were younger. Can she go to a Youth group at church where there are positive role models for her? SOrry if i am coming across as opinionated, but when i was 12 my dad did the same thing, and even thoug i didn't believe him, i didn't like being put in that position by someone who was supposed to love me, and be the example and a source of strength. Positive male role models are so important in a young girl's life, so that she will know she doesn't have to drink, etc to win approval. hugs to you ready. sorry for not geting back to you until now as well, but you can always write me.

SEW....glad you are talking about all of this...here for you too. hugs.

June 20, 2006
1:44 am
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Yes, yes, I know, mumble, mumble, just am taking a breather off of here to let the thoughts settle in. Weird way of fixing things, but it's my way....later

June 21, 2006
11:59 am
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Sew,

I am not sure that I did not offend you recently in a thread, so I am hoping that you will forgive me, and just hear what i have to say reguarding your situation here. I feel for you deeply. I am almost 30 years old, and I desperately long for my mother to love me, and want to be my mom. The fact is that she never was a mom, and she neer did anything to protect me, or keep me out of harms way. In fact she put me through several experiences that could have been completely avoided. All of which involved sexual, emotional and physical abuse. The fact is that she did not care, she did not even attempt to care, she did not attempt to help the situations. Now, when i ended up pregnant at 19, I was clueless. I wanted to be a good mom, yet, had NO example to go by. I was deathly afraid of being a bad mom. Now, at almost 30 I am due in 7 weeks with my fourth baby. I have raised them all the best that I know how. Have I failed them at one point or another, ABSOLUTELY. We are parents, not perfect. We try, and that is what counts. I obviously do not kow the reason that your daughter is not talking to you, but we will all fail our kids at some time. We can only do the best that we can. I found out the day after my daughter turned one, that she had been sexually abused. I was devastated, and I totally took it personally. I didn't believe that I protected her, that I did what I could, more or less, I believed that I had failed her. I did not purposely put her in a position of being hurt, or abused, but it happened. To be honest, we are not sure that it has not happened again since then, by someone totally different, in a totally different situation. I don't know that for fact. But I do feel like I failed her. I have always tried to be very protective of my kids, ALWAYS. But we can NEVER be perfect. Blame is something that always takes place in a time of pain, I think we all know that. But usually, we find that the person that we are blaming and hating are the ones that we need the most. I am hoping that your daughter will realize that you have loved her, cared about her, and did your best to protect her. But also realize that you are not perfect. I know that you are a good hearted and well intentioned person. My heart feels for you, and hoped that your daughter will figure that out as well. She will, pray for that Sew. Don't give up. Give her time and space. Not enough that she thinks that you don't care, just enough to know that you respect her space as well. You have not failed her. Made a mistake maybe, but not failed. Work this out inside of you too. Then work with her. She needs you, and she will realize that. That is the prayer of my heart. I don't know if any of this helps, or matters. I just wanted you to know that I care, and I understand things from both side of the spectrum.

Scared

June 21, 2006
5:52 pm
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Scared

Thank you for your input. I do not know where you think I was offended? which thread? No, as far as I know, with the memory of a mid aged grandma here, I do not recall.

I have not and will not give up on my daughter. But the communication is broken and I have no idea how to or what to say anymore. Actually, I have tons to say, just do not know what to say and what not to say. It seems nothing matters. The silence is deafening.

I can't write much more at the moment, but I thank everyone for the sharing. I just cannot write, the words are too many and stuck in my heart. I cannot even explain myself right.

Sew

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