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SD abortion Ban
March 9, 2006
10:14 pm
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Anonymous
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Ginger,

I don't see that the father has many rights in this regard. True, it took two people, but since she must bear the brunt of the consequences, she should have the greater freedom of choice. If he wants more choice, let him wait until marriage to have sex with her; then he'd have a lot more of a say in the matter.

I'd like to see the man say to himself, "We both made the baby, so we'll both care for the baby, whether we're together or apart. And since she will be doing most of the care of the child, I'll do what I can to support them."

If men did this consistently, there'd be far fewer out of wedlock births, and those that did would be taken care of. Anything reasonable we could do to encourage men to do this is good.

Seeker

March 9, 2006
11:23 pm
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exoticflower
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Seeker, I agree wholeheartedly--and if our not so great nation could help encourage this sort of mentality in men, odds are the sort of thing that encouranges women to feel the need for abortion would be greatly lessened. As would a lot of postpardum stuggle, depression, confused hurt children growing into confused hurt adults who fail to help teach their own children this same strength in character because of their wounds. And that would bring us right back to the abortion issue itself--why not, rather than removing the option of abortion, make having a child less of a burden by addressing and working to correct the social issues like this if you want to see less abortions? Rather than removing a womans rights, why not help provide a less bleak alternative in choosing to carry a pregnancy to term and go it alone?

March 9, 2006
11:28 pm
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hey guys!! yes, the agitating guppy is back. can't stay away. ha ha

i am prochoice!!

have u all thought about how bad it will be when women in sd try to abort by themselves. there will be deaths from infection and botched jobs, i'm sure.

March 10, 2006
12:53 am
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Anonymous
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DEAR ef,

{Seeker, I agree wholeheartedly--and if our not so great nation could help encourage this sort of mentality in men,}

... then our nation would truly become a great nation, would it not? :o)

{why not, rather than removing the option of abortion, make having a child less of a burden by addressing and working to correct the social issues like this if you want to see less abortions? Rather than removing a womans rights, why not help provide a less bleak alternative in choosing to carry a pregnancy to term and go it alone? }

I only see two other options:

1) to give the baby up for adoption to a stable, loving home. I don't hear this option talked about very much; I can't imagine why not; can you? It sounds very practical to me, and far better for both mother and child than abortion.

2) for everybody to choose to abstain from sex outside of marriage, or at least a truly committed relationship. However, the old morality is pretty much gone by now. You'd have better luck teaching your dog to fly, I fear. ... Wait, what's that in the sky? Is it a plane? A bird? No, it's Fido! ... maybe it would work after all. lol

Seeker

March 10, 2006
12:57 am
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Guppy,

Is it really true that women are so anxious for abortions that they'd flock to illegal abortion clinics, or do the job themselves, if legal abortions were not available?

Could it be that they'd pursue other options, such as adopting their baby out?

I don't know the answer to this; I'm asking you and anybody else on the site.

Seeker

March 10, 2006
1:11 am
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some women dont see any other option but to abort. and they will go to any means to get it accomplished. like the teenager that would rather die than disapoint her parents.

i dont know seek...i just know the statistics of what happened when it used to be illegal. for the priveleged few, it wont affect , but for the poor, young, uneducated...i think u will see problems.

the government taught abstinence for along time to prevent aids....now it preaches safe sex....better reality.

March 10, 2006
12:40 pm
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eve
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I'm pro choice. In Germany where I come from abortion is only allowed in the first months of pregnancy, and women have to prove that they talked to somebody about the alternatives and the consequences (doctors, psychologists, priests and some people at women shelters can do these consultations). In later pregnancy there has to be a serious risk for the health of the mother to allow an abortion.

I think this is a good way to make sure that people know what they are doing and make an educated choice.

March 10, 2006
12:53 pm
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lollipop3
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Seeker,

You asked:

"Is it really true that women are so anxious for abortions that they'd flock to illegal abortion clinics, or do the job themselves, if legal abortions were not available"

Answer: Yes, absolutely 100% true.

Why you ask? Who knows, perhaps for the same reason some women would rather throw a baby in a trash can then to deal with it. Or for the same reason some people choose to commit suicide. You never really know why people do the things they do.

As far as you not wanting to give abortion free reign in this country because.... "I've heard too many stories of women being pressured into having an abortion, and then suffering and having to deal with psychological damage from it for the rest of their lives."

So, what your saying is that by taking away our right to abortion....you would be "protecting" us from men that pressure us to have abortions?

No offense, but no thanks.

Lolli

March 10, 2006
12:59 pm
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eve
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forcing or pressuring a woman to have an abortion is a punishable offence. Is this not the same in the US?

March 10, 2006
1:43 pm
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eve,

I have never heard of this in the US.
We also have laws about abortion after the first trimester.

Seeker,

"Is it really true that women are so anxious for abortions that they'd flock to illegal abortion clinics, or do the job themselves, if legal abortions were not available?

Could it be that they'd pursue other options, such as adopting their baby out? "

Yes, they would flock to get illegal abortions and no, they would not choose adoption.

Before abortion was legal. I went to a doctor in the seedy part of town who performed an abortion on me wihtout any pain medication in a closet. I was crying out because of the pain and he just told me to shut up. then I heard him plunk the fetus in a trash can. A friend of mine drove me there and back.

I was willing to go through that much physical pain and risk for my life because I was not anywhere closely prepared for motherhood at 19 even though I felt very sad about having an abortion.

choosing abortion is not a picnic. its not a happy thing to do. However, the huge relief I felt after I was no longer pregnant was worth it.

If I had carried the pregnancy to term it would have been way too painful emotionally to give up the baby for adoption. Abortion was far less emotionally painful.

As a man you can't possibly know how it feels to be pregnant and the huge impact it has on a woman's life.

I have had 3 abortions and have no regrets. It was the right decision for me in each case. I don't think anyone has the right to force me to carry a pregnancy to full term if I do not feel that is in my best interest. It is my body and I get to choose what happens with it when I am pregnant.

young & restless,

the term "fetus aged child" makes no sense whatsoever. A fetus is not a child. You know that they are two different things. This is just pro-life rheortic to make abortion sound evil. A fetus cannot live independent outside of its mother, a child can. A child is a fully formed human, a fetus is not. a fetus is a clump of cells with potential.

The choice is mine,the fetus does not have a say in the matter and should not.

March 10, 2006
3:54 pm
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Seeker, this caught my eye "1) to give the baby up for adoption to a stable, loving home. I don't hear this option talked about very much; I can't imagine why not; can you? It sounds very practical to me, and far better for both mother and child than abortion."...

Most parents who can affor dt o adopt now days can also afford surogates, and to hand pick their baby. They can choose to try different treatments to allow themselves children with their DNA< they can afford to choose the parents based on a lot of screening info, and they DO. The fact is, there are several women in a friend of mines family that are looking to adopt, and they don't want the scads of available children out there that need their love. They want a boy or a girl specifically, they want a white healthy baby with a specific sex from good parents without any problems. And you always hear people talking about how they are trying SO hard to adopt--if they where trying hard to adopt, they would be adopting one of the already available children. People do not want a child, they want a SPECIFIC child in a lot of instances. Its a pick and coose world. Also, being surrounded by your loved ones while going through with your pregnancy would be hard. Some women need to keep it a secret, they don't want for people for the rest of their lives to be talking about or deliberatly not talking about the baby they gave up. And carrying to full term a baby that is a product of rape or insest, that may not be healthy or able to live a truly gratifying life...yes, I think women ARE faced with desperate circumstances, and I think they WILL turn to desperate measures to take care of it. I remember a friend of mine when I was twenty who was pregnant and terrified--she had severe depression, it didn't belong to her fiance`--she got drunk for the first time ever at a party and didn't remember ever what happened or who had sex with her or even if she may have allowed it or not. She didn't go to get an abortion because she didn't have the money and didn't want anyone to find out, and she instead took a months worth of birth control pills and downed a bottle of Tequila, giving herself alcohol poisoning. So yes, I know for certain that a terrified, miserable, ashamed or hurting woman who feels there is nowhere to turn will go to desperate or unsafe measures if faced with an unwanted pregnancy sometimes--if ther eare no other options. And in todays society, there are NOT other options. Trap yourself in the welfare system? Face a life of being shunned by family or friends, losing your own chances in the world (which would greatly limit what ou can give your child too)? Grow a life inside of you that you can't take care of alone, forced to neurter and bond with seomthing and then having no choice but to give it away not having the means to care for it later? And not even knoing if for whatever reason, people won't want that baby?

March 10, 2006
3:59 pm
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exoticflower
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(((kathygy))), I cannot imagine how terrible that must have been for you, and I'm so sorry to hear that your experiance was such a scary one. It scares me to think that women could have to face that kind of fear and desperation again in this day and age, even after we have progressed so much since then.

March 10, 2006
4:33 pm
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Thanks god someone else had exprienced an abortion. I got pregnant last year to boyfried. At the time he was married and I wasn't ready. I was only about 4 weeks along and was able to take the ru-486 pills to abort.

However it did make me sad I though it was for the right reasons. I struggle with an eating disorder and that also scared me with carrying a baby.

I am adopted and I don't think I could emotionally go through the pain of seeing someone else raise my child....

March 10, 2006
4:45 pm
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lollipop3
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Ginger,

I have to agree with you about the father situation. I have known women that have a child when the father has made it very clear he was not ready to have a child. I have also known women who have PURPOSELY gotten pregnant to try to keep a man.

I don't know what the solution is. If it is the case that a father doesn't have to pay support if he didn't want the child...there will be A LOT of men out there saying...
"but I told her I didn't want it"

I also have a problem with the flip side. What if the father WANTS the child but the mother wants an abortion. He has no choice in the matter.

Sooo, if he doesn't want it....too bad, you have to pay. If he does want it....too bad, it's my body and you can't tell me what to do.

As I said I don't know what the solution is but it is a fact that it's not always fair as far as the father is concerned.

Lolli

March 11, 2006
11:45 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Lolli,

Of course it might not always be that way.

http://www.nationalcenterforme.....age7.shtml

March 11, 2006
11:53 am
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Interesting WD....I also heard on the news this morning that they are trying to pass a law (where, I'm not sure) that the father must agree to an abortion before the woman can have one.

Not sure if it will pass or not...I'll guess we'll have to see.

Thanks for the info.

Lolli

March 11, 2006
12:04 pm
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I have gone every which way on this issue before finding a middle ground where I could feel comfortable.

My last midterm in college speech classes I argued that "abortion is murder" period. I got an "A."

For a while I posed as a militantly atheist eco-fanatic obsessed with zero-population growth.

Then, my position was: "I am Pro-Abortion. I think it should be mandatory for all pregancies 100% of the time."

Now, years later, my sister has had an abortion. My sweet young friend "K," who I had known since she was an infant, had an abortion at age 16. I personally fell for the "I am on the pill" trick, wanted the unstable woman I had concieved a child with to have an abortion, then fell head over heels in love with a baby boy. Those of you who know my story will appreciate that it turns out that there were good reasons to believe that the woman involved was an unsuitable candidate for being a parent, but still, I wouldn't give up the time I have had with my son for anything.

I have been changed by my experiences. I realize that I have not met a single woman who has had an abortion who did so casually. Each of those women went through tremendous pain, grief, self-doubt, and experienced some degree of guilt over what they had chosen. (I don't count the rare psychopathic women I've known."

In my experience women DO NOT casually employ abortion as a means of birth control. Their DNA doesn't let them. Their Humanity doesn't let them. I don't think any man can every really fully appreciate that. Our DNA won't let us.

I just cannot in good conscience take away from any woman the right to base her decision to either have an abortion or to carry a pregnancy to term on her own conscience, needs, and desires. It is a tough enough decision for a woman to make without someone jiggling her elbow, judging her, criticising her, condemning her, or imposing their own religious beliefs on her.

March 11, 2006
1:22 pm
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Lolli,

{I have known women that have a child when the father has made it very clear he was not ready to have a child. I have also known women who have PURPOSELY gotten pregnant to try to keep a man.}

I'm puzzled about something. It seems that if the father was very clear he was not ready to have a child, he had no business having sex. In spite of all precautions, condoms break, cycles don't go as planned, etc.

It's like me saying I want to speed, but do not want to get a speeding ticket. If I get caught, tough luck for me.

I still feel no matter what the woman might say or do, or even if she deceives him and tells him she's using birth control but isn't, he is still equally responsible for any offspring he sires. He doesn't have to stay with the woman, obviously, but he's still responsible for his offspring. It's a natural consequence of sex.

Seeker

March 11, 2006
1:38 pm
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lollipop3
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Seeker,

I see your point and for the most part I agree. As a matter of fact, I had a situation myself where this was a problem. I will spare you the details but I found out that my b/f had a child that he was not supporting (at least not on a regular basis) and I made it very clear to him that I would NOT be with a man who did not take care of his responsiblities to his child. He had a choice to either get a DNA test and support the child if it was his, or I wanted nothing to do with him. I am happy to report that he did in fact get the DNA test and is now legally paying support for his child (of course we broke up anyway, but that's another story).

So, as you can see, I do have strong feelings about a man taking responsiblity for his choices.

I guess my point earlier is just that I think that it is not always fair that a man really has no say one way or the other.

Lolli

March 11, 2006
1:50 pm
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I've been very touched from this thread, more so than I expected to be. Thanks for answering my questions, everybody. I've learned a bit about the downside to adoption and about the emotions involved in carrying a baby to term.

I am open minded on this whole topic. As a man, I can't possibly relate to this as well as a woman.

I want to persuade, not coerce, a woman in a desperate strait of having an unwanted pregnancy. So I think we should make sure the woman knows all available options, make sure nobody pressures her into choosing abortion over another option, letting her make the decision, and supporting her in that decision.

I do think that, except for emergencies, there ought to be some time limit placed on having an abortion, such as perhaps within the first two trimesters. The practice of partial-birth abortion, where the baby is killed seconds before delivery, strikes me as being barbaric, if not cold-blooded murder.

Any other thougths on this?

Seeker

March 11, 2006
1:58 pm
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Worried_Dad
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"The practice of partial-birth abortion, where the baby is killed seconds before delivery, " is a myth. It does not happen in clinics in this country, anywhere, ever, not even once.

March 11, 2006
2:12 pm
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WD,

I keep hearing about partial-birth abortions on the Christian radio station. About babies in delivery being turned around so that they emerge feetfirst, until the entire body is outside the mother and the head alone remains in the birth canal. The baby's head is then punctured with scissors and the brain sucked out, and the dead infant is delivered.

Are you saying this is all a lie? If it is, I want to know.

It's a pretty bold statement that it doesn't happen, anywhere, in clinics, even once. How can you know this?

Seeker

March 11, 2006
2:53 pm
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lollipop3
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Seeker,

I've NEVER heard of anything like that. If that were true you'd be hearing about it on every news station all over the world...not just on a christian radio station.

It's absolute non-sense and exactly the rhetoric and propagana used by the christian right to push their beliefs on to others.

When I was a child I went with a friend and her family to a "prayer group" run by "christians". Where at 12 years old, I watched a video of people living in 4 feet of blood and tatooed with the numbers 666, and told that is how life will be for anyone who does not accept Christ as their Lord and savior.

Do you think that is true? Or just a bunch of seriously psychologically disturbed people. I go with the latter.

Lolli

March 11, 2006
3:04 pm
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Seeker,

I went out on the web to look for information on this partial abortion.

All that I have been able to find about it are sites that are put up by religious pro-lifers. I read the story that you spoke of in your post. The only problem that I have with it is that on ALL of the sites that I read, despite the fact that they say that this happens 1000's of times per year, the only example given on every site is the one that you quoted by the same woman.

Again, if this happens all the time, wouldn't there be more accounts then this one by one person?

By all means, if someone here has proof of these accusations by someone besides a religious pro-lifer....I'm all ears and would be very interested to hear about it.

Lolli

March 11, 2006
3:09 pm
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Eeker,

How do I know it is a myth? Sort of the same way I know the Easter Bunny is a myth. Nobody has ever seen the easter bunny, or photographed him, or obtained sworn testimony from someone who saw him.

You may hear people protesting AGAINST killing babies seconds before delivery, but you never, ever hear anybody arguing that they want that to be legal or be allowed to continue to do it.

In most cases, a third trimester abortion is ILLEGAL and has been forever. Killing a baby seconds before delivery would be ILLEGAL. But you have not heard of a case of a doctor being sued or brought to trial for doing so.

Late term abortions are DANGEROUS and doctors do not want to kill their patients.

Doctors who perform abortions are not particularly happy to be doing so, you know. It is a sad part of their job.

Seeker,

You need to get your head around the idea that "Christian" radio stations are NOT the best place to get news about science or medicine.

Where did you get that goofy fake quote attrobuted to Stephen Gould? It was probably produced, as an intentional lie, by someone who claims to be a "Christian."

Some of these sources are not even very good sources to learn about Christianity. One of my favorite parts of the Bible reads "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Some "Christians" just don't seem to get that.

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