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Science Without Bounds - the new religion?
June 27, 2006
9:20 pm
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bevdee

Thanks for your response of 27-Jun-06.

You said:

"... because it is starting to seem like I am using him for sex. That makes me the creep, I reckon."

Nahhh! Not a creep. A real creep is smug and arrogant about using people for his/her own gratification.

You are giving of yourself in a reserved way that's all. He is probably doing the same.

As I have said before, I was once in a horribly toxic relationship wherein I was absolutely besotted with a psychologically sadistic woman who got her 'rocks off' torturing me. She once said to me: "let me look into your eyes." I asked: "Why?" She said: "I want to see your pain." If she orgasmed before me she would stop immediately after that and enjoy my frustration. She was deceitful, unfaithful, vindictive and cruel but how I 'loved' her. She even knew what she was doing as evidenced by the statement she made when she said to me:"You must be a masochist." Of course I wasn't. Her and I were completely emotionally co-dependent in the most horrible way.

When I finally broke it off with my sadist for the last time, I went dancing again. There I met my present partner with whom I have had a good relationship for many years. I didn't have any 'real' feelings for her as I was still craving that 'other woman'. However, I liked her caring nature and the joy that she had in her eyes. I stayed with her and over the years an affection grew into what I now know as real love. I no longer have or ever have had with my present partner the 'shooting stars of ecstacy' that sex with the sadist was able to evoke in me. But neither do I experience the depths of depression and agony felt under the psychological torture instigated by my sadist.

Perhaps over time you will find a deep, strong bond of affection for your 'cowboy' that may eventually develop into and be recognized by you as real love.

You also said:

"I don't know if I can love myself the way I deserve to be loved."

I know without a shadow of a doubt that you can and will if you do 'certain things'. I know that you have the capacity for compassion for others whose suffering you recognize. When you come to the deep irrevocable realization that all divisions are arbitary and artificial then you will be able to find great compassion for your suffering self. Wisdom will grow in such magnitude that you will know exactly how to treat yourself.

Wisdom combined with compassion is true love - not the hormone driven kind that relies on fickle emotions and false views.

You also said:

"well yes, the core we talked about, and my fear that there is no core. Or that I will unravel all the layers, and never be able to ravel it up again."

Even though you may not know it, the 'core' of which we spoke is infinite wisdom and compassion - it is our true nature. We only have to discover it to evaporate the imaginary layers of Fritz Perls' onion in an instant. I'm still waiting for my second experience of that. My first was all too short lived and far from permanent.

You also said:

"What will I do? running around with an exposed core?"

'You' will do 'things' that are more wonderful than neither you nor I can imagine in our wildest dreams.

If and when you and I get to that stage the 'cosmic Oneness' experienced in the best orgasm, that we have ever had, will be our 'common' experience. There will be no consciousness of any 'I' who is having that experience. There will only be the unowned consciousness of that exquisite state of being.

I cannot speak for you, but even in the mediocre orgasms that I have experienced there never is the thought: "Ohhh I am orgasming." There is only the orgasm. How much more is the sense of 'I-ness' lost in the best orgasm in our lives.

We attribute the orgasmic experience that we have to our body functions. I strongly doubt that. I believe that at the point of orgasm the mind momentarily disconnects from consciousness of a 'self' that needs 'protective' monitoring and vigilance. This momentary disconnection frees for an all to short period of time the mind in a way that our consciousness 'explodes' its artificially constructed boundaries. The ego of the self quickly reacts snapping those boundaries into place again lest 'we' be 'lost'; that is, deprived of our sense of 'selfness'.

The medical profession tell us that many men die with an erection. I believe that the erection is the only physical mainifestation of the orgasmic experience caused by the voluntary disconnection of the mind from the brain that happens at death. Women probably have the same orgasmic experience at death - how would we know except what female NDER's tell us?

Thus from all of the above I believe that "running around with an exposed core", far from being frightening, will be ecstatic.

I know that when I lose just a little of my sense of 'self-consciousness' I am most happy and able to communicate well publicly. Can you imagine how it would be to lose all 'sense of self' whatsoever? We don't contract and disappear as we fear we would. We 'expand' to encompass all that is - we become who we 'really Are' all along, IMHO.

June 28, 2006
12:40 pm
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Tez,
Thank you for your kind words. Now I don't feel so creepy, because I decided you must be right. After reading about your sadistic woman, I know I have never done that. In reading those porn threads, I started worrying about that word - OBJECTIFY, and questioning myself. But I am not mean or cruel or anything. I sure don't make my friend jump through hoops for it. Far from that!

I have thought about your thoughts on this - "I cannot speak for you, but even in the mediocre orgasms that I have experienced there never is the thought: "Ohhh I am orgasming." There is only the orgasm. How much more is the sense of 'I-ness' lost in the best orgasm in our lives." - and - "We attribute the orgasmic experience that we have to our body functions. I strongly doubt that. I believe that at the point of orgasm the mind momentarily disconnects from consciousness of a 'self' that needs 'protective' monitoring and vigilance. This momentary disconnection frees for an all to short period of time the mind in a way that our consciousness 'explodes' its artificially constructed boundaries. The ego of the self quickly reacts snapping those boundaries into place again lest 'we' be 'lost'; that is, deprived of our sense of 'selfness'."

Do you think your emotional codependency with this woman threw you into another realm ( for lack of a better word)? ........... this individuation you have discussed?, causing you to disassociate? And, possibly more emotional than physical, so the DESIRE you felt and the sex you had was so mind-blowing, it became addictive to both of you? And who knows what childhood scenarios she was re-enacting every time she NEEDED to see your pain. I can see how this would be addictive.

I have been involved with men who were unavailable to me, for different reasons. Married, emotionally distant, chemically dependant, physically abusive. It seems the more unavailable he was, the more I wanted him. The more he hurt me, the harder I tried.

And repeating this quote of yours- " I strongly doubt that. I believe that at the point of orgasm the mind momentarily disconnects from consciousness of a 'self' that needs 'protective' monitoring and vigilance."

I believe this is true. I say this because if I am THINKING about other stuff, like who is in the next room, or what I need at the grocery store!!, I can't orgasm. I have to relax, or disconnect to have an orgasm. I have had this happen, to a very small degree, when I am at my favorite place on the lake. On a floatie thing, floating on the lake, at my isolated swimmin hole. By myself. Hands above the water. I get so relaxed, looking at the clouds, sky, and suspended partly in the water, I bliss out. That's when it happens. To a very small degree, and I am talking more about the way I feel AFTERWARD..... I feel the same as if I had actually made love, masturbated, to have an orgasm. Hmm.

And here is something else that I think is just so strange, and I have never been able to figure it out, certainly never asked anyone. When I am very frightened, I feel sexual stirrings. (I am trying to be so polite, here, I don't want to get in trouble with the guidelines!!) Maybe it is adrenaline? And I have always been like this, it is not a result of the abusive relationship I was in.

I have always felt so GUILTY for being as sexual as I am. So unLADYLIKE!! I never had any desire to get married, and I never had any reservations about being with someone when I wanted to be. I felt guilty afterward, but continued to do it anyway. I felt guilty for masturbating, but I did it anyway. I felt guilty for having THOUGHTS, but I had them anyway. This drive I have is something that is hard to talk about to people, male or female. Women are uncomfortable hearing it, (maybe that ladylike thing again, maybe it is Southern upbringing), or especially if they don't have that high a libido. A man I am not dating might think I am just coming on to him, and some men I have dated, once they became aware of this drive, were threatened by it.

Oh Tez! I wonder if this "exploding consciousness" of an orgasm is why that church and the leaders advised against sex for anything other than procreation?!?!?! Back to my old suspicions about that church, but it is a thought.

You said "Even though you may not know it, the 'core' of which we spoke is infinite wisdom and compassion - it is our true nature. We only have to discover it to evaporate the imaginary layers of Fritz Perls' onion in an instant." I am having flashes. It is not happening all at once, but sometimes, I have these amazing flashes of clarity. I have these thoughts that I think are so profound, I keep a notepad in my pocket, so I can write it down quickly, in case I don't have time to mull it over right when I have the thought. These flashes are coming closer together.

Now you say, "Thus from all of the above I believe that "running around with an exposed core", far from being frightening, will be ecstatic."

I remember when I was a little girl, unafraid of climbing trees, singing out loud, and dancing when there was no music playing. Just because I was happy. How I felt riding horses, swimming, water skiing. Free. You know how kids just run up and squeeze someone, not the little fake hug we give people on greeting them? Joyous.

I remember how I used to just.....wake up happy. I think my core was less onionfied. I was less afraid.

Thanks again for your kindness, Tez, and I just have to say this. You can downplay it or deny it all you want, but you ARE a sweetheart. Now if this is supposed to be a big ole secret, then, I promise I will keep your secret for you!

Bevdee

June 28, 2006
9:26 pm
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bevdee

Thanks for your response. Phew, I am tending to write a sermon. 🙂 I'll have to watch that.

You asked:

"Do you think your emotional codependency with this woman threw you into another realm ( for lack of a better word)? ........... this individuation you have discussed?,"

I believe that 'childhood individuation' is the process of constructing a 'sense of self'. Prior to that the infant is IMHO still totally dependent upon and for all intentions purposes a part of the mother. If the child passes through this process of individuation successfully then it becomes both emotionally and physically more independent of the mother.

Some of us, myself included, for one reason or another did not successfully negotiate our way through this stage. This 'failure' left an emotional craving stored in my emotional centre, the amygdala, just waiting to be re-triggered.

In a person like me, all it takes to re-trigger this emotional craving for the oneness with my mother experienced all too infrequently as an infant, is expressed as a desire for sexual intimacy with a woman who strongly resembles the personality and emotional 'template' image of my mother stored in my brain as an infant.

If that retriggered craving is temporarily satisfied in sexual connectedness with a mother template wherein the joining together physically in sex happens with as much intimate skin on skin contact as is possible between two human beings then my highest ogasmic ecstacy occurs.

I saw in a subsequent meditation state that the extreme ecstacy was coming from the absolute feeling of connectedness that I felt to the whole universe through this woman. During such heightened orgasmic states, all sense of my being a separate 'self', an individual, was momentarily lost. The effects of the individuation process seemed to have been momentarily and temporarily reversed at such times.

During this orgasmic period of time, I was, I believe, in the same emotional state once experienced when totally unified with my mother and the whole cosmos. The 'trigger' for this emotional state of cosmic connectedness is, I believe, stored in my emotional centre awaiting retriggering by a mother template. Part of this mother template of mine>/U> that resides in my brain, is the image of a blond haired, short, slightly overweight, rejecting, manipulating, vindictive mother who uses the threat of withholding of love to get her way. This closed loop, regenerative feedback, brain mechanism is the hook upon which I writhed - trapped!!!!

You talked about what appears to me to be a part of your 'template' trap in action when you said:

"It seems the more unavailable he was, the more I wanted him. The more he hurt me, the harder I tried."

This might be because the more he rejected you, the more he resembled your internal template image. Thus your childhood engendered cravings to be loved by your mom/dad were fired off all the more. It is a deep, dark, self-defeating spiral down into the depths of depression and helplessness. I lost all self-respect through the grovelling that I did in order to 'make' her reciprocate my 'love'. Hmmmm!!! I mistook this infantile craving for love.

For me and those like me this is the crunch!!! To get such heightened ecstacy states during the brevity of sex, I have to cope with such a partner as described above during other lengthier times of normal life. So to have my ecstacy 'cake' I must also cop heaps and heaps of agony. The price is just too bloody high!!!

This is a double sided coin - I can't have just the ecstacy side without the agony side. But the illusion that trapped me in the toxic relationship was that somewhere, somehow there was a way of having the ecstacy without the pain as well. Hmmmm!!! It is analogous to wanting to have a shower without getting wet!!

Now, I fully realize that what I seek can never be attained in a sexual relationship. I now unequivocally know that the ecstacy of reunification with the universe comes through reunification with our 'true nature'. This entails the mind's letting go of all the illusions of being a separate 'self'. Through meditation, this involves mind eventually becoming Pure Mind. This, I am sure, is the ecstatic mind states experienced by the mystics!!!

This has led my thinking to where you said:

"I remember when I was a little girl, unafraid of climbing trees, singing out loud, and dancing when there was no music playing. Just because I was happy. How I felt riding horses, swimming, water skiing. Free. You know how kids just run up and squeeze someone, not the little fake hug we give people on greeting them? Joyous."

Didn't growing up just take us further away from this ecstatic joy of having a more pure mind?

In regard to the above, a great avatar, a great mystic once said:

"Lest ye become as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven"

Christians seem to have missed the significance of this statement completely.

You said:

"When I am very frightened, I feel sexual stirrings."

Me too and I nailed that one down 'good and proper'.

Years ago I was alone in England in mid winter without a friend or even an acquaintence. The only thing between me and freezing to death was my wallet. I was very scared. I craved sex.

I went to a 'massage parlor' that provided much more than a massage. After a very exquisite professional sexual servicing, I returned to my hotel room still craving sex unbelievably. Despite my body's reluctance to cooperate with my mind, I lay in a hot bath and masturbated. I now see why this is called self-abuse. My body objected but complied anyway.

Thereafter, absolutely puzzled, I lay in bed still craving a woman!! I asked myself what exactly did I want a woman to do if I did get one to come to my room?? I realized that I wanted as much flesh on flesh as is possible. I wanted to crawl right up her vagina into her womb!! I was yearning for the wonderful security inherent in the physical intimacy of infancy in the womb and later on my mother's breast. I then realized that fear, raw fear of death, lay behind this craving well disguised as a powerful sexual desire!!

Ever since that London experience, I have suspected that this fear stimulated, infantile memory driven yearning for re-experiencing infant oneness-with-mother underpins the excessive preoccupation of humans with sex when compared to the periodic hormonal stimulation of other primates. Of course we are all blissfully unaware of this unconscious process.

Phew! I've delivered yet another lecture - I suspect.

Thanks so much for yourfrank, open and honest sharing. It is very helpful to me in my own journey of 'self'-discovery.

June 28, 2006
9:28 pm
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Whoops!! I missed a delimiter in the underlining I'm sory about that.

June 28, 2006
9:37 pm
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Sorry about that.

Here is the stuffed up part rectified for easier reading:

During this orgasmic period of time, I was, I believe, in the same emotional state once experienced when totally unified with my mother and the whole cosmos. The 'trigger' for this emotional state of cosmic connectedness is, I believe, stored in my emotional centre awaiting retriggering by a mother template. Part of this mother template of mine that resides in my brain, is the image of a blond haired, short, slightly overweight, rejecting, manipulating, vindictive mother who uses the threat of withholding of love to get her way. This closed loop, regenerative feedback, brain mechanism is the hook upon which I writhed - trapped!!!!

You talked about what appears to me to be a part of your 'template' trap in action when you said:

"It seems the more unavailable he was, the more I wanted him. The more he hurt me, the harder I tried."

This might be because the more he rejected you, the more he resembled your internal template image. Thus your childhood engendered cravings to be loved by your mom/dad were fired off all the more. It is a deep, dark, self-defeating spiral down into the depths of depression and helplessness. I lost all self-respect through the grovelling that I did in order to 'make' her reciprocate my 'love'. Hmmmm!!! I mistook this infantile craving for love.

For me and those like me this is the crunch!!! To get such heightened ecstacy states during the brevity of sex, I have to cope with such a partner as described above during other lengthier times of normal life. So to have my ecstacy 'cake' I must also cop heaps and heaps of agony. The price is just too bloody high!!!

This is a double sided coin - I can't have just the ecstacy side without the agony side. But the illusion that trapped me in the toxic relationship was that somewhere, somehow there was a way of having the ecstacy without the pain as well. Hmmmm!!! It is analogous to wanting to have a shower without getting wet!!

Now, I fully realize that what I seek can never be attained in a sexual relationship. I now unequivocally know that the ecstacy of reunification with the universe comes through reunification with our 'true nature'. This entails the mind's letting go of all the illusions of being a separate 'self'. Through meditation, this involves mind eventually becoming Pure Mind. This, I am sure, is the ecstatic mind states experienced by the mystics!!!

This has led my thinking to where you said:

"I remember when I was a little girl, unafraid of climbing trees, singing out loud, and dancing when there was no music playing. Just because I was happy. How I felt riding horses, swimming, water skiing. Free. You know how kids just run up and squeeze someone, not the little fake hug we give people on greeting them? Joyous."

Didn't growing up just take us further away from this ecstatic joy of having a more pure mind?

In regard to the above, a great avatar, a great mystic once said:

"Lest ye become as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven"

Christians seem to have missed the significance of this statement completely.

You said:

"When I am very frightened, I feel sexual stirrings."

Me too and I nailed that one down 'good and proper'.

Years ago I was alone in England in mid winter without a friend or even an acquaintence. The only thing between me and freezing to death was my wallet. I was very scared. I craved sex.

I went to a 'massage parlor' that provided much more than a massage. After a very exquisite professional sexual servicing, I returned to my hotel room still craving sex unbelievably. Despite my body's reluctance to cooperate with my mind, I lay in a hot bath and masturbated. I now see why this is called self-abuse. My body objected but complied anyway.

Thereafter, absolutely puzzled, I lay in bed still craving a woman!! I asked myself what exactly did I want a woman to do if I did get one to come to my room?? I realized that I wanted as much flesh on flesh as is possible. I wanted to crawl right up her vagina into her womb!! I was yearning for the wonderful security inherent in the physical intimacy of infancy in the womb and later on my mother's breast. I then realized that fear, raw fear of death, lay behind this craving well disguised as a powerful sexual desire!!

Ever since that London experience, I have suspected that this fear stimulated, infantile memory driven yearning for re-experiencing infant oneness-with-mother underpins the excessive preoccupation of humans with sex when compared to the periodic hormonal stimulation of other primates. Of course we are all blissfully unaware of this unconscious process.

Phew! I've delivered yet another lecture - I suspect.

Thanks so much for your frank, open and honest sharing. It is very helpful to me in my own journey of 'self'-discovery.

June 29, 2006
12:49 pm
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Hi Tez
I am reading where you said, "Thereafter, absolutely puzzled, I lay in bed still craving a woman!! I asked myself what exactly did I want a woman to do if I did get one to come to my room?? I realized that I wanted as much flesh on flesh as is possible. I wanted to crawl right up her vagina into her womb!! I was yearning for the wonderful security inherent in the physical intimacy of infancy in the womb and later on my mother's breast. I then realized that fear, raw fear of death, lay behind this craving well disguised as a powerful sexual desire!!

Now I am thinking......

I wonder if this was why the abuser I lived with always felt like he had to have sex after he beat me.? Even though it was usually forced?

Also - This fear stimulus has made me think of the time close to a year ago,when I was under a great deal of stress. My sugar levels were vascillating dangerously, uncontrollably. Because of the exteme sugar levels, I was frequently disoriented. I dropped alot of weight very rapidly. I was afraid for my health. It affected my job performance. I was terrified every day that I would lose my job, and without the money, be kicked out of my place. I would not tell either of my parents, or ask for help. I woke up most nights in a diaphoretic sweat. With all this in play, I was in a constant state of sexual arousal. ( I don't know how I could have walked around if I were a man!!) There were 2 men that I could call anytime, and I did, (not at the same time!) and sometimes afterward, I would masturbate, with or without them. And in between times with them, too.

All I wanted was the orgasm(s) The sweet mindlessness of an orgasm.

Another thing - a couple of years ago, my mother and I set out to repair our relationship. I had severed communication with her for 3 years, because I refused to be talked to the way she had always talked to me. Until a funeral put us in the same room. Until my sister's drinking and drug abuse got so out of control we had to communicate with each other to help care for her little girls while she went into rehab.

It was very tentative at first, very polite. We are still working on our communication skills. We do not refer to past arguments. We do not bring blame into our discussions, and there are just some things we won't talk about. That's ok with me. This is a HUGE difference from the old style, full of blame and recriminations, on both sides. The old way was just unproductive, it went round and round.

I know now my mother loves me. She proved this to me by changing the way she talks to me, her pattern, and her willingness to learn to grow together in this new relationship.

I forgave my daddy, and stepdad for their passivity when I was younger.

In reading your last post it has occured to me that this must have brought a change in me. Since I have started this healthier(?), different line of communication with her, I have not had the urges for the unattainable men. I want the ones I can have!!! (Only up to a point, though)

I guess I don't have this "skin on skin" craving as often, since I know my mom loves me.

"Ever since that London experience, I have suspected that this fear stimulated, infantile memory driven yearning for re-experiencing infant oneness-with-mother underpins the excessive preoccupation of humans with sex when compared to the periodic hormonal stimulation of other primates. Of course we are all blissfully unaware of this unconscious process. "

And since I have straightened out my job situation, and my finances, my sugar is more level, I am not as scared, and I am not in this constant state of arousal.

This quote - "Lest ye become as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven"

Now this? This takes me back to the thoughts I was having about the light that is in us. I wonder if this means peeling that onion, tapping into the light. Without the wonder of a child, will we ever be able to see "god"?, This god, this enlightenment, that I suspect is the light within us.

enlighten - break that word down. prefix en, meaning inner

And I wonder what is really meant by "the kingdom of heaven"?

You thanked ME? "Thanks so much for yourfrank, open and honest sharing. It is very helpful to me in my own journey of 'self'-discovery. " You are welcome! I don't think of myself as being able to help anyone, but if I did, I am glad. It is just so nice to have someone to talk about these things with.

Hey Tez? You don't sermonise! Like me, you have alot to say, and you say it thoroughly, descriptively. Thank YOU.

Bevdee

June 29, 2006
12:59 pm
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Hey Tez?

Sometime we should talk about food! Oral stuff.

Bevdee

June 29, 2006
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bevdee

On the 29-Jun-06 you wrote:

And I wonder what is really meant by "the kingdom of heaven"?

Before I attempt to give my thoughts on that I would like to mention two other things:

1. I am no longer a Christian in any sense.

2. Christ also said words to the effect that the "kingdom of heaven" is 'amongst' you.

I think that many Christians believe that Christ was somehow metaphorically referring to himself as being God. I think that Christ, being a mystic, was saying that the "Kingdom of Heaven" is 'permeating' and 'underpinning' everything. However in order to 'see' the "Kingdom of Heaven" the mind has to become 'pure'. more 'pure' than the mind of a little unspoilt child's mind, to be freed from all the mind's preconditioning, 'born anew' as it were, purified of all of its previously programmed filter systems through which we presently sift, mentally manipulate and interprete all incoming raw sensory data.

Such a 'pure' mind, freed from all the 'baggage' of self-interest can then see what really 'is' - i.e. Pure Mind moving and creating all that is seen and unseen, our True Nature, the Tathagata in action.

Deep meditation is, I believe, a state wherein the 'Pure Mind' can be observed by us - albeit so very briefly. In such a state no thoughts whatsoever exist. Thus no sense of a 'self' exists. Yet consciousness itself certainly does exist. I've been in that state a few times. It's like taking a six month's holiday when one comes out of that state. However to maintain that state of mind 24/7 is to attain the state of mind of the Buddha. I've got a hell of a long way to go before attaining that state - perhaps a million lifetimes. 🙂

You said:

"All I wanted was the orgasm(s) The sweet mindlessness of an orgasm."

When you used the word "mindlessness" I think that you mean just exquisite awareness minus all thoughts about that state or anything else. I am sure that your ecstatic awareness however, is heightened at that time. This is probably as close to a Pure Mind state that most of we humans ever come - no pun intended. But the same state can be reached in other ways. Meditation is one - drugs and death others. Drug experimenters and Flatliners play(ed) that deadly game. Orgasm is so brief - but meditation is a far more healthy and productive way to achieve such altered states of consciousness than drugs and flatlining.

You mentioned that you wanted want to talk about food? Do you mean using food as a psychological way for obtaining the pleasurable recall of feelings of being 'nurtured' and 'sustained' and therein offseting existential fear and anxiety?

As you can see from our conversation social sciences such as the fields of sociology and psychology certainly can have overlapping domains with that of a 'science of religion' as expounded in D'Adamo's book.

July 1, 2006
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Food -
Yes, because in the 4 years after I left the abuser, I did not date, or have sex. I ate and ate and ate. I knew I was just substituting one appetite for another, but I could not stop myself. I gained 50 lbs. Eventually it threw me into diabetes.

Now. I had a friend at that time that was very overweight. She claimed 299 lbs, I suspect she weighed more,. She confided to me that she had been sexually abused when she was 6, and she started gaining weight not long after that.
( I have also read that this is a common occurence with women, after rape, the gaining of weight places a barrier between her sexuality and men in the world)

Anyway, she told me one day about her binging, and what triggered it. She is single, and one afternoon, masturbated. She said every time she did this, afterward she would get in the car and hit the fast food places. Long John Silver's, eat the food while on the way to Taco Bell. She told me she usually hit 5 to 7 places before she would (could) stop. Then she would go home, and pass out from the carb and sugar overload. She told me she felt guilt at the pleasure she gave herself.

And, I am not a christian anymore either, if I ever was. I was always a skeptic.
I believe Jesus existed, but as you said, a mystic. I think a cult following built up around him, and my belief is that the story of his birth, life and teachings have been handed down and changed in the translation. Possibly this is so with the other mystics. I don't know.

I do not think "Religion" is at all important. What I think is valuable are what lessons we take from the teachings of the mystics and prophets, and how we apply them.

I always appreciate your input. Discussing all this with you is fascinating. It is stretching my mind.

Bevdee

July 1, 2006
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Bevdee.

When you had strong desires for having sex with your abusing 'soulmate', can you picture in your mind exactly what it is that you 'see happening' that you loved so much?

In my case when having sex with my ex in my toxic relationship, I loved the intuitive power that I felt cursing through my hands as they drove my 'template' ex into multi-orgasmic ecstacy states one after the other in relatively quick succession. She would mutter under her breath to herself: "Why is this happening to me? I've never experienced anything like this before. No man has affected me like this before."

Somehow I knew what exactly to do to her from day one. How - I don't know. In my experience every woman is different. Yet in the two templates that I have had I was somehow in a state of precognition when it came to sexual 'foreplay'. During this phase my vision would become blurred, I would feel so powerful and 'in charge' yet somehow strangely entranced. I would certainly go into what is sometimes called an altered state of consciousness. Getting my own rocks off assumed lesser importance. Her groans and facial contortions were so overpoweringly desirable to me in and of themselves that they seemed like an end not a means. I hunger as I write for this very seductive, entrapping and addictive experience.

As I have previously said, once I was inside her, my orgasm was so intense that my whole sense of self momentarily exploded out of existence and there was only the ecstatic awareness of connectedness to the whole universe left in my consciousness. Of course the moment was all too brief and the boundaries of my 'self' soon snapped shut again.

I think that genuine tantric sex - as opposed to unbridled sexual hedonism - taps into this powerful state of awareness. But Buddhist masters advise that it is dangerous for all but the most advanced practitioners of Buddhism to follow that path. Sexual addiction can otherwise result, I'm told.

Though not immediately obvious, all of the above relates very much to the topic of this thread.

I think that we all unconsciously yearn for that ecstatic, mystical, cosmic connectedness that we once knew and momentarily re-experience from time to time in our life experiences. However we find it extremely difficult to reproduce these experiences upon demand. Some seek it in drugs, others sex, some in music. For me 'template dancing' as described above is out - the subsequent pain is too great. However,I have faith in meditation experiences as being far more productive and healthy yet delivering exactly that for which I yearn - Oneness with the Universe.

During the four years after you left your abuser when you had strong desires for food binging, can you picture in your mind exactly what it was about the experience that you like so much?

Was it the self-nurturing in the eating that gave you the pleasure and thus much relief from ... ... ...?

Are you able to finish this sentence for me?

July 2, 2006
12:25 am
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A) feeling lonely and unfulfilled

B) the void

I have wondered also if I were stuffing down anger. Pushing food into myself.

And as for me knowing what to do? All I had to do was lie there for 90 seconds, until he emptied himself inside me. He got off on the total stillness of me underneath him.

Bevdee

July 2, 2006
6:16 am
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Bevdee.

If I am probing sensitive, painful emotional memories in these posts, please feel free to tell me to go 'mind my own bees wax'.

If it's OK then when I asked the question:

"When you had strong desires for having sex with your abusing 'soulmate', can you picture in your mind exactly what it is that you 'see happening' that you loved so much?"

I was seeking the 'hook' that kept you in the sexual relationship for as long as it did and still is having some impact on your life.

While having sex with your abuser, were you
"feeling lonely and unfulfilled" vainly hoping for fulfillment? Is this what I hear you saying?

If so, what made you believe that your abuser had the power to fulfil this need for fulfillment or validation as a worthwhile person even though he wasn't doing so?

In your excessive eating, was it the self-nurturing in the eating that gave you the pleasure and thus much relief from the void of feeling like a worthless nothing?

You said:

" I have wondered also if I were stuffing down anger. Pushing food into myself."

I'm not sure from where the source of this anger was coming. Was it because you paid your dues in that you agreed to "lie there for 90 seconds, until he emptied himself inside" of you and then didn't meet his side of the bargain in validating you as a worthwhile person?

Was "pushing food into" yourself your best attempt at filling the "void" by self- nurture; nurture that you felt should have been forthcoming from your abuser? Do you think that sex on his terms was the price that you paid to get that same nurture and he never 'paid the bill' as it were, in return?

Is the type of sex that you are having with your present bf - who is a nice guy but not your real 'soul mate' - your way of saying: "Well if I can't get the nurture and validation that I want through sex, I might as well go for the best 'physical' sex that I can have and damn the intimacy and caring"? Am I way off in left field in the assumption underlying this question?

Til next time.

July 2, 2006
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Tez,

These are really hard questions, and I am going to take a few days to answer, OK?

"When you had strong desires for having sex with your abusing 'soulmate', can you picture in your mind exactly what it is that you 'see happening' that you loved so much?"

I think he is alot like my mother. Critical, withholding her love. He was married when I met him, 10 years before he moved in with me.

After he started abusing me, I never wanted him. It took me 3 years to figure out how to get him out.
The HOOK? was fear. Fear of being killed. This was after I realised the extent of his rage, and what he was capable of, and had done to other women.

It is hard to remember when I did WANT him, because I spent so long fearing and dreading him.

I do understand the questions.

"Is the type of sex that you are having with your present bf - who is a nice guy but not your real 'soul mate' - your way of saying: "Well if I can't get the nurture and validation that I want through sex, I might as well go for the best 'physical' sex that I can have and damn the intimacy and caring"? Am I way off in left field in the assumption underlying this question?"

No, I like him, and I am scared to death of that.

I will answer all the other questions later. I am at the end of pulling a midnight shift. I am a day person, and I am getting punch-drunk from being up all night.

Take care Tez,

Bevdee

July 3, 2006
1:22 am
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Bevdee.

I'm sorry - I'm guilty of not reading your posts on other threads. I misunderstood the nature of your relationship with your abuser.

Also I am constantly concerned that if I dive to deeply into sexual details it can be interpreted by some readers as 'perverted voyeurism' - cheap thrills. Yet sex, being such a powerful pointer into our inner beliefs and emotional memories, holds my interest.

In addition, I now understand that you were not is an addictive relationship with your abuser but more as a captive of your fear of him. It must have taken great courage to get away from him. You are to be commended for finding that courage within you.

In an answer to a question regarding your present bf, you said:

"No, I like him, and I am scared to death of that."

Do you know exactly what it is that you fear?

July 3, 2006
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Hey Tez,

It's ok. This too has helped me. I had all this written out, and even though it seems kind of redundant, IF you have gone back and read the other posts, I think I need to say it. All I can say is, be patient, there is some signal in the noise.

I have to tell you when I first read your post from 07-02-06, I was so angry! I felt slapped! From work, I had to run outside, I was shaking so badly. I was not angry with you, but those questions really bothered me. WHY??

First of all, that word soulmate. I don't think I ever felt like that. For years, I had thought I wanted him real bad, and hated that I couldn't have him, but when YOU called him my soulmate, I was FURIOUS. For the last 10 years, I have called him LUCIFER. I don't like to think about anything to do with him. I have refused to remember what little I did like about him.

There is no time before the time he hit me

I have worked very hard on this denial. I hate this realisation. I thought I had worked through this. I hate this. I have to make peace with it.

My mother got pregnant with me when she was 17, and had to marry my daddy, to save face. That's what people in my town did in 1960, unless they were black. She finished high school from home, and went to college after she had my sister, 2 1/2 years later. She is still not sure who my sister's father is, Daddy or another man she had an affair with.

She has always told me she loved my sister more than me. She told me having me ruined her life, and she wished abortion had been available in 1960. "How different my life would have been" she said to me more times than I can count. I was supposed to sympathise with her. She demanded my sympathy. My job was always "take care of your little sister".

When she was married to Daddy, I had love from him. After she left him to marry the man she had been having an affair with for 3 years, the recently divorced minister of Daddy's family church, I had no one, except my sister, whom I loved and resented. The honorable reverend never interfered in the way she raised us. He never intervened when I was getting the snot beat out of me. My daddy had retreated emotionally, and hid in his religion. I had to work for money for school clothes, and my sister didn't. I made good grades, and she didn't. I did chores, and she was not expected to.

I do not want to whine, I just want you to know what is in my template.

We had church crammed down our throats by this hypercritical hypocrite of a woman. We had to smile all the time, because NOTHING WAS WRONG. We were not to talk of her or the reverend's drinking, or her narcotics use. Prescription narcotics, of course, the elegant woman. She was a teacher, but both she and the reverend were counselors TOO! They had a name in the community. Whatever.

I met this man when I was still in college, and living at home. He was "getting a divorce" I believed him. My mother told me how inappropriate he was. His family had no money, and he had no education. He worked construction, for god's sake!!! She looked down on people with no education. This made me determined to see him. We had sex everywhere, his and his wife's bed, when she wasn't home, friends' homes,even in the parked car of the cemetery.

After a year, he would not leave his wife, neither one of them wanted to file for divorce because neither wanted to pay the filing fees. I left him, and went on with my life, After I graduated, I moved away so I would not be tempted to see him. I stayed gone for 7 years. Even though I was in a relationship with another man, he always knew how to reach me, and when I visited home, I saw him. When I moved back to my hometownhe heard about it and, got in touch with me. He had left his wife and daughter, and he moved in with me.

It was pretty good until the first time he knocked me down. I was tired after working a 16 hour shift, and refused to have sex with him, He hit me upside the head, and the force of it took me to my knees. I told him to leave my house and he wouldn't go. I was really shocked the first time, Not long after that, I learned of the beating and stalking he had done to other women, in the city that he lived in before he moved back to mine. He was pulled over for drunk driving, and carried to another county because of outstanding warrants. 3. All for assault and battery, filed by 3 different ladies. He was doing drugs, and drinking heavily by then. I was terrified, then, and I talked to the police about restraining orders, and eviction proceedings, and they told me since he had been there 7 months, he was a legal resident of the house. They suggested I get the landlord to evict him.

Tez, what do you know about stalkers? I know the times I locked him out of the house, he just knocked the doors down. He broke windows to get in. Once he actually DOVE through the living room window, the fucking drama queen!! When the cops came, he told them he lived there. Legally he did. I was too embarassed to tell the landlord what I was going through, because he was a friend of a friend. I could have had him put in jail, but he would not have been given a life sentence, and I was terrified of the consequences if I did press charges.

Domestic violence was taken pretty lightly, in my town, in 1992-1996. Once he went to a court ordered rehab for a month. Before we ever had cell phones, he called me constantly from this rehab center. At home, at work. Phonestalking. I worked 3-11, and that phone would be ringing when I pulled in the driveway at night, and it was ringing at 7;15 the next morning. He was real big on sleep deprivation. Because I was blaming the abuse on his drug/alcohol use, I did NOT take the month he was locked up to move. I thought he deserved a chance for the effort of rehab. I could not abandon him. I took the orders he placed with me for carry out food, and delivered the food to the rehab center, before going to work 3-11 shift. Pretty stupid of me.

Always, in the days following a beating, or especially verbally abusive episode, he would follow me everywhere, even to the bathroom. He followed me to work one time, I think afraid I might stop by the police station. He called me at work so much I was warned, then written up for it. I could not read anything that he found objectionable, a self-help book would have been too much for him, and I would have suffered for that. read alot of mysteries, but he would look at the summary and decide if I COULD read it. He burned a book because one was a true-crime story of a man who killed the woman he was obsessed with.

I love to read. My mind was shutting down. I had to read stupid romances, and I had to tell him what they were about.

He threw away my birth control pills, and told me if he caught me taking them again, he would beat me silly. He dressed me, even having to pick out my swimsuit. It had a stupid skirt that covered my crotch.

If I did not feel like having sex, and declined, I PAID DEARLY. He would pick a fight, sit up and scream at me all night, hoping to goad me into arguing back, so he could hit me. OR he would sob, and tell me what a hard life he had had, and all the bad things that had happened to him, and I JUST DID NOT UNDERSTAND HIM. It was easier to lie there, and get it over with. It did not take all that long. 90 - 120 seconds. I used to lie there, and look at the ceiling and count, 1 motherf***er, 2 motherf***er, to 90 motherf***er.

What was difficult is that I had to STEEL myself against feeling anything, because 90 seconds was not long enough for me. It was enough to prime the pump, but the water never ran. (My back always hurt, from pelvic congestion, and I was always sick with minor colds, bronchitis, asthma.) Several times I was awakened by him slapping me, because he said I was touching myself. He would wake me in REM sleep and ask me who I was dreaming of, because he saw my eyes moving. Many times I would awaken to find his face looming over mine, staring at me.

I loathed myself for not having the courage to leave.

When I tried to tell him I needed foreplay, he called me a bitch and a whore. I was not allowed to masturbate as part of foreplay, or to finish it off that way. This was very intimidating to him. He did not want it to be good for me.

Many times this man had dificulty achieving or maintaining an erection. When he would finally guide his limpness inside me, guided by his fingers?

I would cough.

I guess my spirit never completely went missing!

In the 3rd year, I found out he was not even divorced!!! I had been putting up with all this shit from someone else's husband.

Once he pushed me, and I instinctively put my arms out, so as not to hit my head on the bathtub. I injured my wrists, and to this day, they hurt if overused. My back is messed up from being pushed down the stairs.

Because I felt helpless, and hated him, I did my level best to make him feel bad. I gently corrected his grammar, constantly. I praised my brother - in- law for being such a good provider to my sister, and their daughters. Once I figured that nothing I did was going to make him even LIKE me, I went at it. Playing with fire. When I cooked for him, I spit in his food. I don't know if he ever caught on to that.

The first time I raised my hand back to him, he backed off, shocked. The second time I stood up to him, I pushed him so hard, HE fell, and I told him to get ready, because one of us would die that day. He backed off again. I laid in bed after this, and knew I had to get out, because I WANTED to make good my threat. I had spent the better part of 3 years wishing him dead, and I am not that kind of person. The hating was wearing me out. I had allowed myself to become like him. Hating.

I did not tell my family I needed help until I needed it badly. I was afraid my mother would have raked me over the coals, and my daddy would have killed him. I did not want to put them in danger. Physical danger, or with legal repurcussions. Because, even with the way she is, my mom, all of 5 feet tall, stood on her tiptoes to cuss out this 6 foot tall man , on MOVING DAY. She stood there on her tippy toes, and jabbed her finger at his chest, telling him his gun didn't scare her, she had one too. I am crying as I write this, because I love her, bitter and sweet, I love her. Daddy showed up with Grandpa's rifle, and stood right beside my stepdad, who had his pistol in his back pocket. The movers worked very quickly.

Afterward? I was angry that I did not have the courage to leave after the first beating..
I was angry at him for forcing me to have 4 years of the lousy rotten fu**ing. I was angry that I was tense, even when masturbating, because of the steeling myself against a feeling of something that would be over all too soon. I could not relax.

I was angry because I had had a fairly healthy sex drive/sex life before him.I enjoyed it. He robbed me of that.

I was angry that he inflicted pain on me EVERY TIME he "got his lovin". He twisted my breasts, or scratched my vagina. He loved to push my legs so far up, he laid on my thighs, and my knees were by my face. I was literally rolled into a ball, and not only could I not move, I couldn't breathe. He really liked biting my nipples until he drew just a little blood. He liked to lay the gun on the nightstand, or hold it to my head. Or insert it into my vagina. Kind of a russian roulette feeling, that one.

I got so good at taking my mind somewhere else when this horrifying sex was happening on my body, I am able to do this in non-sexual situations. I fade away.

Oh yeah, did I tell you I supported him? For 6-8 months out of the year? Because highway construction is seasonal. Concrete can't be poured if it is raining, or if the ground is wet. Or frozen. He was always behind on child support, so when he did work, mostof his pay was garnished for the back support. I rarely got half the rent from him. He expected my money, he demanded my money, and ate my food. He constantly ridiculed me to my face, and undermined me every chance he got. He never helped me clean house, and I worked overtime any chance I got to stay caught up on bills. I was a bitch and a trifling whore, and I had a bad attitude.

This is not even an original story.

It is

TYPICAL!!! Lucifer was a TYPICAL abusive monster! I found this out because after I left him I bought the books!! I read the books!!

At the time it was happening, I thought it so horrible, I didn't know anyone else had had similar situations, and I was too ashamed and afraid to talk about it.

I was angry that it made everyone uncomfortable when I tried to discuss it, so I didn't. Until therapy. My therapist told me I laughed or smiled even when recounting the most horrible events. I was not aware I did it. But, this is my legacy, the smiling, acting like there is nothing wrong, and this is not happening.

I was angry at him for robbing me of orgasms for 4 years. The life-affirming orgasms. He did that shit on purpose. He controlled it. My orgasms terrified him, so he saw to it that he inflicted pain or instilled terror in me so that I could not have one.

I was horrified that I had let what happened happen to me. I am a smart girl. I am perceptive. I SHOULD HAVE DONE BETTER> I WAS STUPID> I SHOULD HAVE SEEN IT COMING> I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BRAVER> SOONER> I SHOULD HAVE SEEN IT COMING> I WAS STUPID> I SHOULD HAVE BEEN STRONGER AND MORE DETERMINED> SOONER. I knew how sick I was from the abuse. I knew how hard it was going to be to get myself back.

I WAS STUPID I WAS STUPID

I was enraged that it didn't even take brainwashing for me to fall into the whole abused-woman mindset. I accepted all the insults and hate and rage that he poured on me. Because of the way I was raised.

Still, I blamed myself, I hated myself for what I had let happen to me.

I could not look myself in the eye for almost 3 years. I avoided mirrors. I still don't know why. I just couldn't.

So to answer one of your questions, it really pissed my mom off. And I got off on that. He was her antithesis. I got off on that. And I stayed in it longer than I should have, just to bug her, and then because I COULD NOT ADMIT I WAS WRONG. How jacked up is that? This is the first time I have admitted that to myself.

And while doing this has been really hard, I want to thank you for prompting me to look deeper than I ever have before. There is agony in self-exploration, isn't there?

Tez, thank you.

If you read my thread from 6-17, the one about my relatioship with my cousin, I will tell you why I think that happened. That realisation came to me the other day, I am still mulling that one over, too.

BUT!! this poor thread!! It has turned into the Bevdee Show. I haven't even looked at D'Adamo for the last few days. Dangit.

Bevdee

July 3, 2006
1:19 pm
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Tez,

I will tell you about the eating after I think about it some more. I am still thinking about that.

Bevdee

July 3, 2006
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Bevdee.

Thanks for both of your posts of 3-Jul-06.

I read and digested every word. My feelings started with pity for you then quickly turned to anger towards your abuser and then slowly mellowed to compassion for both you - being the obvious abuse victim that you were - and the sick fuck who was so screwed up that he relished inflicting such misery on his 'mother substitute' without once realizing what the hell is powering his rage against women.

I once had a friendship with a beautiful woman and her todler son. She wanted sexual involvement and I thankfully declined. She eventually committed suicide by deliberately ODing on drugs.

This is but a brief thumbnail sketch of a part of her story. Her father was a high ranking industrial chemist who sexually and physically abused her atrociously. When she was in her early teens he stripped her naked, tied her wrists to her ankles and did what he liked to her. He left her in the hallway of their home, trussed up like that - and her brother, laughing like hell, kicked her in her naked and forcibly exposed vagina. Her mother ignored the whole episodes and apparently just stepped over her. You can imagine what else her family did to her. She ran away from home at 14 and was picked up off the street by a 'kindly', fat greek guy in his 50's. This guy took her home and 'fisted' her anus thereby splitting her rectum wide open. She haemorraged badly and somehow got to hospital and survived.

Later she married a guy to whom she had a son - mentioned above. This guy, a template of her father/mother?, subjected her to further horrors. He would secretly make recordings of her 'bathroom noises' and play them publicly at parties in front of her and everyone else in order to humiliate her. He would come home drunk, wake her up, accuse her of 'f..king the dog', and give her a hell of a flogging for good measure. He threatened her with his sexual abusing their toddler son if she tried to run away or tell anyone. Eventually she ran away from him and became a prostitute. Drugs and alcohol put her in AA where I met her.

When I tried to befriend her and help her she misread my 'messages' and unsuccessfully tried to seduce me in order to get into my home. On the occcasion when I kindly and wisely refused her 'offers' she started flogging her toddler son - taking her anger out on him for the most trivial thing, saying: "No body wants me." I stepped in grabbing her son from her and shielding him from her blows. He clung to me like crazy as I took both her and him to a bus stop where I had arranged and paid for her transport to her future abode. Two years later she came back and thanked me for my kindness and apologized for her behavior. She told me that the Children's Services Dept had removed her son from her custody and fostered him out to a foster home. She was very depressed. I gave her as much genuine love as I dared without giving the 'wrong impression' to this beautiful looking but desperate woman. Within weeks of this last parting from her, I heard that she had taken her own life. For whatever reason she never had the wisdom and strength to learn from and to rise above her past as you and I have done.

This is a very sad story. I often wonder if I had been more self-sacrificing, could I have made a difference to the tragic outcome? I don't think so. You see she admitted to me that she found normal, decent men sexually unfulfilling. It seems that despite the fact that she hated physical and sexual abuse, she only felt attracted to people who were like her father/mother. Not being an abuser myself, I don't think that she was sexually attracted to me. But she desperately tried to barter her body for lodgings thinking it to be her only attribute of any worth. I saw through the situation in ten seconds flat, but I still feel a little guilty for not being more forthcoming than I was. I don't see how I could have done more for her than I did without placing my own welfare in jeopardy. Though not living together, I was in a sexual relationship with my present partner at the time. This woman knew this and was intent on splitting up my relationship and driving my partner out of my life. Knowing her circumstances and past life, I do not hold this seeming manipulative behavior against her. She was desperate and lost.

You said:

"There is agony in self-exploration, isn't there?"

Yes there certainly is. I came to a point in my life wherein I stopped judging myself harshly because of the existence of my 'demons'. Only then was I able to see many more of them than before that turning point.

I sometimes have sexual fantasies that I would not want the world to see me having. I let them 'be' as it were and realise that they are deepseated expressions of my past conditioning. I find them extremely informative.

I will tell you what I think that we are. I think that we consist of one side of ourselves that is pure conscious awareness that is totally unprogrammed and capable of seeing with perfect clarity, wisdom and compassion. This pure conscious awareness whilst not requiring our body for its existence does interact with another side of us which is the brain, nervous system, and our body functions.

The pure consciousness is, IMO, mostly obscured by our consciousness awareness of our body systems, our brain. Our sense organs play havoc with our 'attention capacities'. Our capacity for using the abilities inherent in our pure conscious awareness is severely attenuated by the constant memory recalls and our brain's working memory's demands for our 'awareness'.

As a consequence of this continuous demand for our attention, we totally believe that we are only this body and nothing else. Most of us are completely oblivious to our true nature - this pure consciousness from which all else is derived.

As a consequence, we are terrified of being diminished physically and mentally. Our mind, thinking that it is body dependent, insists in maintaining its physical and mental integrity at any cost. We commonly label this mental hoop jumping our ego . This word ego means different things to different people. My meaning is that the ego is that delusion of my mind that thinks that a separate, independent 'self' temporarily labeled 'Tez', exists that owns a pure consciousness as well as consciousness a body based thinking and feeling system.

This ego 'game' causes untold suffering by allowing fear of damage to it's wellbeing and integrity to entrap us in cycles of unsatisfactory living experiences. We are 'carpenters' of our own 'mentally objectified crosses' and don't realize it.

If pure consciousness is freed from its imagined obligations to maintain the ego's demands then the mind soars. Meditation facilitates this 'freeing'. Absolutely magnificent music also has this momentarily freeing capability that enables us to hear the 'music of the spheres', the divinity within us, that which we are - there is no 'other'. Mystics both intuitively and experientially know this, I believe. We are eternal consciousness - never created, never destroyed - with an undreamt of nature and qualities.

Next time you eat, look down at your food and ask yourself this deep and powerful question:

"When will this object of my affection become me?"

And next time you go to the toilet, look down at your faeces and ask yourself another deep and powerful question:

"When did this object of my repugnance become not me?"

Then, as an object of your contemplation, you might see that your body is a very dependent process involving 'individual' cells that are continually being born, maintained and dying.

Where is the 'us' in these cells that justifies our so strongly identifying with our body components?

What immortal hand or eye frames our fearfilled identity? None other than our pure, eternal consciousness acting through its agent for selfhood, our 'oh so very temporary' brain.

OOBEs, NDE's, mental telepathy, precognitions, clairvoyance, etc are all paranormal experiences that rely heavily on the temporary 'freeing' of this pure consciousness that is our true 'selves', 'One' again with the 'All', without the 'imagined' borders - or so I believe.

Meditating upon the existence of this all pervasive, indestructable, undiminishable 'higher consciousness' brings such a feeling of peace and serenity in me. I hope I can share some of that with you.

July 4, 2006
4:50 pm
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Bevdee,

Your story moved me deeply. Thank you for sharing it. I can't imagine the pain you've gone through.

Tez,

Your story of your friend who committed suicide moved me, too. It's hard for me to imagine anybody going through what she did.

Hugs to both of you.

Seeker

July 4, 2006
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seekerw

On the 4-Jul-06 about Julie, you said:

" It's hard for me to imagine anybody going through what she did."

Her(Julie's) life was 'milk and honey' compared to what is happening to millions of people in the world today.

Only last night I saw in a TV documentary, a woman without any lips trying to talk. Both her lips had been cut off for no good reason other than to terrorize others into submission. This was not an isolated case. Others have ears and noses cut off. Many raped brutally. Thousands of children are and have been stolen and forced to brutally maim, disfigure, rape and kill people even their own parents!! They become so brutalized that they are impervious to the pain and suffering of others. They have become robotic killers. Free will??? Hmmmm!

One African terrorist leader ascribes to the ten commandments, shown on his 'shield', as the basis for his guerrilla movement. The atrocities, committed by his rebel army are just horrific.

Government sanctioned terrorist committed atrocities are a daily occurence in several African states. But who created the terrorist in the first place???

If the present day religions are not working - and they certainly are not - then there has to be a new religion found that does!

I believe with good reason, that a scientifically based religion holds the only real promise of bringing some sanity to an insane and lost world.

July 5, 2006
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Seeker, thank you.

July 5, 2006
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Tez,

Thanks for your post.

I'm sorry about your friend. You cannot take any responsibility for the decision she made to take her life. If you had provided housing for her, it would have only prolonged her life for a while before its inevitable end. Probably would have wreaked more havoc for you than you can imagine.

My sister is an alcoholic/addict. When she was married and drinking, she was functional. She had someone to take care of her. She divorced, and in her new single life, picked up a man one night in a bar that turned her on to crack cocaine.
When my family first found out, we tried to help her by helping her get into rehab, paying her bills for her, and helping her daughters.

I agonised over her. I had anxiety attacks, and cried for months. I was so angry at her. I learned how codependent our relationship was. It took me a year to work through my feeling of "responsibility" to her. At one point, I was even willing to take her in, moving her the 700 miles to Texas.

Not anymore. If/when she dies, I will grieve horribly. It will leave a huge hole in my heart. But it won't be my fault.

Now about eating - because of the debt the abuser and I had been in, I had very little money. In order not to have any contact with him, I paid off our mutual creditors. Each month, after I paid everything off, I had about $50 left. For groceries and gas. I stopped buying meat. I ate poor, alot of pasta and beans, and rice. Cheese when I could afford it. Tuna on sale. I saved money by only eating 2 meals a day.

At first, I was euphoric. I was free!! I laughed for no reason, I sang countrygirl songs at the top of my voice. I put my new house together, and just luxuriated in it. I didn't have anyone looking over my shoulder, bearing down on me, telling me what to do. I worked at my own pace, and loved it.

My mom had really come through for me in helping me to get out of that situation, and I was really hopeful that we might be able to have some kind of relationship from that time forward. This was not to be. My sister had some other crisis, and she was gone -- with her caring about me.

I was 36. I hooked up with a 27 year old man that I had known for several years. A few weeks into dating, he told me he had been in prison, was framed, and was living with his mother. (Ah well) He told me if he could move in with me, he would keep my lawn up and detail my car twice a month.

No.

So that was that. No more prettyboys for a while. I saw that there was something visible coming from me, radiating from me. And that there were those kind of men that had the radar that picked up on it.

Then I just ......slumped. The euphoria was gone, and I started getting sick. I broke out in hives a couple of times a week for a couple of months. I started having fierce migraines. My childhood asthma would flare up. I had too much freedom, and I had nothing to do. I felt aimless. I had no CAUSE. No codependent cause.

Because of the (so far undiagnosed) PTSD, my stress levels were causing my sugar levels to soar, then plummet. I remember in November, two months after I left him, I was hungry ALL THE TIME. When I did not have some kind of chocolate, I would whip up some macaroni w/ butter and garlic salt and eat it until my eyes were heavy. I got a discount on day-old bagels from a kosher bakery. Heaven! After overeating, I would sleep for hours. I know now that my system can't handle a carbohydrate overload, because about 4 years later, I was diagnosed with diabetes. I work in the health care field so I should have known this. It runs on both sides of my family. But I was so indrawn into my hell, I just kept eating.

Yes, I think I was trying to nurture myself. Or kill myself?

I got sort of agorophobic. I hated to leave the house, even to go to work. Because I needed the money so badly, I did leave that house to go to work, but in my anxious state, I worried about my dog the whole time I was at work. I was afraid Lucifer would find me, and come and hurt my dog. He never did, but I worried for a long long time. I was afraid to walk the dog, for fear of him catching us out, and hurting us.
I tried not to leave the house on my day off, that was actually my goal.
I was afraid afraid afraid.

I started having nightmares about him. HIs face in my bedroom window, all hairy like a werewolf. The rape dreams woke me drenched in a pool of sweat. I awoke crying alot. But the worst? I had several times, was one in which he pulled up to me and the dog, on our little morning walk, and said get in the car, bitch.

And, in the dream I would.

I started seeing a therapist, and I felt a lot worse before I started feeling better. Some days, after my sessions, I would lie on the couch, and not move. Sometimes I would call in sick. Some days I would eat. Alot.

I started getting self-help books to read, and this helped me some. I started learning things about myself. Codependancy.

When I started therapy? People went berserk. My mom actually called and asked what I was going to tell the therapist. My daddy told me I would do better spending that time in prayer. I had 4 female friends, 3 of which were toxic to me. One of those friends began preaching to me, calling me and actually reading passages from that bible to me. And criticised me for not going to church. 2 of them needed me, and could not be put in the position of "giving" me anything. I cut them all loose. And the 4th friend? She was not toxic to me, and she moved. To another state. I helped her, because with her 4 year old son, she was fleeing a physically abusive relationship.

I felt like all I had in this world was my sister, a stay - at - home mommy, whose every day was a struggle to stay sober until evening, when her husband got home. She was my best friend, my champion, and I both love(d) and resent(ed) her. I had my daddy, well intentioned, who prayed for me all the time. There was no way I could tell him what I suffered. It would have mortified him and embarassed both of us.

I kept gaining weight. I had other well-meaning people telling me, I had a "pretty face" and all I needed to do was take off a few pounds and I would find a nice man. "You will find a nice man, and forget all about this bad guy" Or, equally distasteful "Oh it's just like falling off a horse, you gotta git back on there" UGH. I avoided alot of people, or I pasted that big famous nothing-is-wrong smile on my face. I did it out of self-preservation, but I wasn't used to being alone, I had always surrounded myself with people. talking, joking. I remember one day, I was talking to the therapist about my gaining weight, and I blurted out, " At least if HE saw me he wouldn't want me now." She looked at me and raised one eyebrow.

My mind-chatter kept geting louder.

I was in no shape to go out and meet someone. I could barely leave the house. I had such a hard time relaxing to gratify myself, I gave up. Every time I started to feel like I was getting close to orgasm, I would see his sneer, or hear his voice calling me bitchwhore. Sometimes I would finish, but sometimes I stopped.

Actually I am thinking about this THOUGHT that keeps nagging at me. I did this pulling back from coming when I was with him. I am trying to remember if I ever knew why. Or if it was subconscious.

OK -- one reason would be not to give him the satisfaction. Big reason. So he would know he did not satisfy me. That would never have done, in my hatred of him. I felt enough like a slave to him, financial, domestic, without being a sex slave!!

The second would be because my orgasms earned his contempt and insults. I was berated or hurt if I liked it too much. So I carried this to my new life, my "freedom" It took a long time to shake it, and sometimes I still carry the tension. The inability to let go. I quit even trying to masturbate, because it was too traumatic.

I plodded along, and I started compiling the genealogy on the Choctaw Indian side of
Daddy's family. This fascinated me, and I started getting out of the house to go to the genealogy library, and then a genealogical society. I met people. I corresponded with people I was related to, and it made me feel like part of a family, again.

Then I had the relationship with my cousin, and there was some hook, let me tell you. Once I got past mistrust and fear, this was phenomenal sex. Sometimes, when I wept afterward, he would hold me. He could just look at me, and I would get wet. I now think that is because he is family, although we are both blacksheep, we are family. It was different, though, he was not critical of me. The sex I had with him was ecstatic.

He ended the relationship after a year and a half, but I still think about him, and want him.

I would love your take on this.

"In your excessive eating, was it the self-nurturing in the eating that gave you the pleasure and thus much relief from the void of feeling like a worthless nothing?"
YES

Yes, the chemical reaction of my blood sugar going up to 300 or higher. It is a rush. When it is from chocolate! O little O! And the rush from carbs takes longer, but it happens, too.

I started losing some weight, about 2 years after I got away from him. Then 5 years after I was diagnosed with diabetes, my glucose level was 375, and my triglycerides were 823, so high they were masking my cholesterol readings. They were telling me what to eat, and stressed the importance of sticking to this diet to bring it down fast, because I was in grave danger.

I did exactly what they told me to do, and subsequently lost 35 lbs. By that point, I did not want to die.

I cared if I lived. I wanted to live, and I did not want to live miserable or without feet. I took a long hard look at the way I ate and why. Sometimes I ate junk because I was hungry, and when I am hungry, I get shaky and disoriented. I need it fast. and sometimes I ate when I was angry, or upset, or sad, or lonely. When my blood sugar goes up, I start to feel euphoric, the higher the better. So, yes, I think that was my misguided way of trying to nurture myself.

Hey, here you said, "Also I am constantly concerned that if I dive to deeply into sexual details it can be interpreted by some readers as 'perverted voyeurism' - cheap thrills. Yet sex, being such a powerful pointer into our inner beliefs and emotional memories, holds my interest."

Don't worry, I don't think you are a perv!! These questions do not bother me. It is nice to talk to a man as intelligent and informed as you are about sex.(or anything) I am very comfortable talking about it with you, especially since this is anonymous!! Very safe sextalk.

Another statement from an earlier post -- "In addition, I now understand that you were not is an addictive relationship with your abuser but more as a captive of your fear of him. It must have taken great courage to get away from him. You are to be commended for finding that courage within you. "

I am trying to figure out if there was some addiction there. Because I could have left sooner, maybe? I'll get back to you on that one.

Thank you for calling me courageous. I am still hard on myself, and itis nice to have someone tell me that. I am not running around with my heart and guts in my hands anymore, and I rarely mention my past to anyone, I don't want to have that define me. I would much rather be defined by my courage!!

Thanks Tez

Bevdee

July 6, 2006
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bevdee

I read your post of 5-Jul-06 with great interest as usual. Please don't think that because I only respond to certain parts that the rest holds no interest. It is just that time and space dictates a selective response.

You said:

"Then I had the relationship with my cousin, and there was some hook, let me tell you. Once I got past mistrust and fear, this was phenomenal sex. Sometimes, when I wept afterward, he would hold me. He could just look at me, and I would get wet. I now think that is because he is family, although we are both blacksheep, we are family. It was different, though, he was not critical of me. The sex I had with him was ecstatic.

He ended the relationship after a year and a half, but I still think about him, and want him.

I would love your take on this."

I can relate powerfully to this. When the two women in both of my 'toxic' relationships looked at me with approving, smiling faces, I would get pre-coital lubrication style 'wetness' too - without necessarily even having an erection, I might add. My eyes would lose focus, I would feel slightly dizzy, and tingle all over. With all the other women with whom I have been sexually involved, it was never like this. With the woman in the first toxic relationship, I mistook this as being an indication of 'true love'. How wrong I was!! By the time I was involved with the second woman, the one who had multiple orgasms in quick succession i.e. within 30 minutes, I knew a lot more about my addiction to 'certain' women. I believe, from her sexual behavior and other behaviors that I was her 'template match' too. That is the worst situation. Codependency results rather than unidirectional dependency is more likely to result in the push-pull game spiralling down into mutual destruction.

I think that the degree of ecstacy experienced in sex by one or both partners is a measure of the strength of the template match with the other partner. I can easily have an orgasm with my fist, Mrs Palm and her five daughters. But the orgasn is just nothing like that experienced with a template match. Does my penis know the difference between my, fist, and one vagina or another? I doubt it. But my brain does. Heightened ecstatic orgasms, IMHO, are the result of recapture the bliss of being at one with the Universe through the 'template matching' partner that was once known in the womb and early infancy before any concept of individuation or sense of an independent 'self' had been established.

Please don't think that I think that every relationship in which other people experience this orgasmic ecstacy, that it will always be toxic. Not at all. It sounds to me like the one that you had with your cousin was far from toxic but relatively healthy. But in my particular case , any sexual relationship that I have, in which I experience getting 'wet' just from a partner's look, it is bound to be or turn toxic sooner if not later - without exception!!

As you can guess, I think that you found a very strong template match in your cousin. From what you have said it sounds like your daddy is a loving father - not necessarily perfect, but caring. I don't know anything much about your early life with your mom. Undoubtedly she was highly instrumental in the formation of your 'ideal template match' in your psyche. My ideal template match will inevitably always cause me great pain in any sexual relationship. I suspect that yours may not do so. That is probably because of our very different parenting and infant experiences. However, I believe that the basic principles involved still apply to all human beings and possible even to animals if and when they get to freely choose a mate from amongst many different choices.

It took me many years to meet my first of the two really close template matches in my life. Though I believe I met a third, I avoided her like the plague, so I'll never know for sure. She came on to me and though I felt powerfully drawn to her, I opened the throttle on my throbbing V twin 1100cc motor cycle the last time I saw her and got away pronto. I've never seen her since - nor am I likely to do so. I probably will never meet another strong template match, touch wood.

Why did your cousin and you part company? Was it because of family pressures based upon the nature of the close family ties? Incest based nnuendos?

By the way - I don't ascribe to such taboos as sex between cousins. Of course I'm not advocating brother/sister/mother/father incest - that is a another thing altogether.

I don't want to launch into another lecture on the affects of infant/mother bonding and early infant/mother attachment styles upon adult relationships in later life. I hope that what has gone before or what follows hasn't turned into that.

However infant bonding/attachment styles are, I believe, critical in defining the type of partners who really turn us on sexually. For people like me, understanding this and the resulting template matching processes frees me from being entrapped in the type of hell previously experienced in the past toxic relationships. I genuinely believe that Guest_guest is ensnared in this type of relationship as demonstrated in the Diary of Guest_guest thread. In such relationships the heart(emotions) almost completely rules the head(cognitions, rationality, common sense). Such people such as myself in a template matching relationship are usually in such denial and self deception that it is hard for others to believe that they are not 'bonkers'(a learned, academic psychological term) :-).

If your 'ideal template match' located in your psyche is at least benign, if not loving and caring, then at least you will have half a chance of forming a loving, lasting sexual relationship with a man who is a close match to this 'template' within. Some people seem to call the ideal match a 'soulmate'. I think that this is a poor choice of words to represent 'template matching'.

"Thank you for calling me courageous."

You are courageous. Anyone who faces their fears and finds the courage to both get away from a tyrant and look at their demons within as you have done is certainly courageous.

I do act and have acted like both a courageous person and a craven coward at various times under various circumstances. But I am neither a hero or a complete coward just a human being doing the best that I can with my present mental state at any given time.

I once knew an older Aussie guy who won a Military Medal for great courage under fire. In WW2 he saved his whole platoon and killed many brave Jap soldiers and possibly some of his own men in doing so. I tried very hard to get him to tell me about his experiences in this regard. He always refused to talk about it. I finally got him blind drunk and he opened up.

He was thoroughly ashamed of the whole affair. It appears that the Japs had overrun his position and the order had been given to retreat. In the jungle the direction to retreat can be confusing. He ran straight towards the Jap trenches in the confusion. The Jap machine gunner brought him down with both his legs hit. He fell straddled across the narrow Jap trenches. All that he can remember is the click that his Bren gun made when the ammo clip was exhausted. On autopilot and unable to walk, he just kept changing clips and kept raking the Jap trenches with Bren machine gun fire. Apparently he killed all the Japs and even tried to kill his own men and may have before they were able to disarm him. He saved the day - yet knew only fear and remembers little or nothing of it. He was like a trained robot - trained to kill. Even though I tried to convince him that he was a 'hero' he would have none of it. Because of his great fear of dying he thought that he was a coward and that his acts of seeming courage in the face of that fear just pot luck and of no credit to him.

I suspect that you may suffer to some degree from the same illusion of lacking courage as did this old acquaintance of mine of long ago.

July 6, 2006
11:30 pm
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alright, tez, are u saying we are all doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes because of a prexisting template match in our phsyche caused by the relationship with our opposite parent? is so, how do u break the cycle? how do u know u are not repeating the same circle of dispair again and again.??

July 8, 2006
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Guppy

You asked:

"are u saying we are all doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes"

Yes - until we learn what is causing our bad choices. It is not a matter of bad luck. It is a problem caused by being sexually attracted to the wrong type of person. It's no accident - IMO it is our emotional programming from the past that is causing it.

You asked:

"how do u break the cycle?"

You attain the insights into the workings of your mind that allow you to make choices based upon your insights into why you pick the wrong partners every time rather than simply going on what your feel.

You asked:

"how do u know u are not repeating the same circle of dispair again and again.??"

If you are powerfully sexually attracted to a person, e.g. love at first sight, then you can be sure that the person is your strong template match, period.

If like me, and you have a 'dysfunctional' template, then you would be well advised to avoid that person like the plague. Most people, in emotionally driven, dysfunctional relationships have fall into the 'matching template' trap every time they 'fall in love' and consequently suffer like hell.

If unlike me, you have a 'healthy' template, then go for it with that person to whom you feel powerfully sexually attracted. You have a good chance of making the relationship work whether there is a template match or not.

Have you had a series of bad relationships?

If the answer is 'Yes" then please don't make the common mistake of assuming that all men/women are bastards/bitches and that is the problem - not you. This assumption cannot fail but to turn you into a victim instead of a willing - though less than enlightened - partner in whole affair. If so then, it could well be that you are both disempowering yourself and setting yourself up every time for a fall without knowing it.

One of my sisters, after several disastrous relationships took the victim's way out, regards all men as bastards and is now a lonely shrivelled up old spinster leading a life of self imposed and fear driven celibacy.

Another sister - after her last absolutely disastrous relationship with a sexual sadist of the worst kind and somewhat similar to BevDee's Lucifer - freed herself with my daily help after about 6 months. The insights she gained drove her into becoming a therapist, in business for herself. She treats people from the UK and Canada as well as where she lives in Australia. She has closed off her books completely now. She will not take any new clients now until the backlog diminishes.

She chooses her men very wisely now. As soon as any signs of 'codependency' appear, that is signs of template matches, she very amicably terminates the relationship. Needless to say she has had many partners - but no pain. She has not had a partner now for about 2 years. She gets heaps of offers - but she is very choosy now. Fear and emotional neediness no longer drives her. She chooses to handle the needs of her 'inner child' as any good parent would with their external child.

I'm in a good relationship now and have been for many years. Real 'love' binds us together; that translates into good communications, heaps of affection, consideration, reciprocity, honesty, loyalty, trust. We still have our disputes! The relationship is not perfect. The sex is not ecstacy producing as is sex with a template match. But neither is there the pits of agony and depression caused by a template match's behavior combined with the screaming needy little inner child trying to get its template match evoked infantile needs met.

Through very badly chosen words, I once made the mistake on this site of saying that I accepted 'second best' in my relationship with my present partner. I was attacked by women here, left, right and centre. They all misunderstood what I meant to say.

The 'second best' referred only to the levels of orgasmic ecstacy that I experience during that ever so brief period of time not to the other 23hours 59 minutes and 40 odd seconds of the day in the relationship. Physiologically speaking, I feel sexually satisfied just the same.

Not being a template match, my present partner is and never has been the doorway to connectedness with the universe that a template match can provide. But I can achieve that connectedness through deep meditation - including the mental orgasmic experience - but I have to put in much time and effort. It requires much more time and effort than just inserting my penis into a template match's vagina; but is infinitely more rewarding and much more healthy in the long term.

July 8, 2006
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Ah Tez, thank you.

"Why did your cousin and you part company? Was it because of family pressures based upon the nature of the close family ties? Incest based nnuendos? "

For him it was. He couldn't handle it. He has alot of respect for my daddy. My cousin's father was non-demonstrative, and my cousin told me he remembers when he was a little boy, Daddy holding and loving him. He respects my daddy.

Our family never knew. If they suspected, they kept it to themselves. Only my sister asked me, and I lied to her. After we started sleeping together, he told me he had trouble looking my daddy in the eye. And because we were living in a small town, we kept it secret. He has had a vasectomy, so children weren't an issue.

It didn't matter to me. I am not as conventional as he is, as concerned what people think.

We are still very good friends. I still love him. I have as long as I can remember. In his line of work, he can take travel assignments, and he started accepting these after he left me. In between jobs, he comes back and visits for a few days at a time. He always "fixes things" around the house, checks under the hood of my car, and mows the lawn. Stuff like that, (checking on me) But he has never touched me, and I have never come on to him, again. This is not easy for me , and I think it is difficult for him too, and he never stays long.

"Such people such as myself in a template matching relationship are usually in such denial and self deception that it is hard for others to believe that they are not 'bonkers'(a learned, academic psychological term) :-)."

Yes, I know that the few people that knew about my abusive relationship could not understand why I didn't just get out. Yeah, they thought I was nuts.

Now here is a revelation I had, and it might be a topic for another thread, one for the ladies. BUT. I was thinking about the abuser's mother, trying to remember. This is so hard, because I tried to shut down memories of him. I remember, not long after he moved in with me, listening to him talk angrily about when his mother left his dad. It made me feel uneasy.

Not long after that, she and I started getting along real well. I encouraged him to mend fences with her. I helped open communication between the two of them. I think subconsciously, I thought if I could get him to make up with his mother, he would not take it out on me. ( I knew the deal with the mother issues) She was not a dreadful mother-in-law to have. I liked her. She had 12 kids!!, and a job. She was always so sweet to me.

Looking back I am wondering if she hoped I, as a liaison, would help their relationship. AND he liked that I got along with her. After visits with his family, he was less critical of me.

I rent a room from a couple, and they fight all the time. I won't go into detail about it, except to say it is "bonkers". She has done the same thing with his mother, who he hates. I am watching my friend, and remembering me, and all I can say, is for the woman in this position, it is a heavy heavy burden.

"I suspect that you may suffer to some degree from the same illusion of lacking courage as did this old acquaintance of mine of long ago."

Hey Tez? This is true, I feel like I am flying blind.

I saw in another thread you posting Guest? about tootsies. I know what that means, by the way, and that got me to thinking about slang. The way we say blind drunk in Texas is "toe (tore) up frum the flo (floor) up. "And down here? Bonkers is sometimes expressed as crazier'n a sh*t ditch rat.

I would love to hear you talk, mate. (podner)

Bevdee

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