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Science Without Bounds - the new religion?
June 9, 2006
6:32 pm
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hi Tez

I hope this isnt side tracking the disc. Should I start another thread on the 8 fold or something?

I got problems with the 8 fold path:

1. Right View Wisdom
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech Ethical Conduct
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort Mental Development
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

I found problems with the 12 steps too. I mean this isnt the only thing with problems.

Problem is: Why not "Right body language" ? Is Right Speech is there, then Body language should also be mentioned. The 8 fold path looks incomplete for this reason and since its incomplete, I cannot have faith in it.

Also, Bhudda is saying in the Right speech:

"4. to abstain from idle chatter that lacks purpose or depth."

Well, danged. This world is for having fun. Whats wrong with a little idle chatter? Its all part of life, isnt it? Pretty boring to have no idle chatter.

Thats like saying one shouldnt play, have fun and waste time.

So I cant agree with the 8-fold path.

Now 6 pillars may be incomplete too. I was talking to Nat (he was my doc, not anymore since I found my insurance wont pay for him) and mentioned one ceoncept and he said "that should be the 7th pillar of self-esteem".

So I guess nothing is perfect but I'll go with 6 pillars since its a new concept and it doesnt prohibit idle chat - I mean. .come on. We gotta have fun.

June 9, 2006
6:44 pm
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guest_guest

On the 9-Jun-06 you said:

"Bhudda's 8 fold path? It looks like the six pillars you know."

Not from my perspective.

And:

"Ok I get it now what you said, about being in a place where our negative emotions are not triggered at all cause we have no self to protect."

This is a superficial understanding but it is a good start.

And:

"This really sounds difficut though I mean, if you say you havent been able to do it fully then its gonna take me a long time too."

That all depends on where you are at. The Buddha said that it takes as long as clicking your fingers takes. Of course he was talking about someone who is 'ready'.

And:

" I dont want to waste my life as its going now."

We are all in the same boat.

Depending upon 'where we are at' we value one path over another. I've already been down Nat's road and found it wanting in the end.

I suggested Nat's books to you because it seemed to me to be the road you want to travel. You need to travel it to find out where it leads for yourself. It won't be wasted time because it is your road just as it was once mine.

I pointed out a 'short cut' to another road but you didn't see the shortcut as going anywhere. That's why I have said repeatedly that you are not yet ready to deal with such concepts as no-self and non-duality.

You consider reading D'Adamo's 400 page book laborious? Is this because your reading and comprehension skills are lacking? Or is it that you see the contents as valueless? Or is it a bit of both?

June 10, 2006
5:33 pm
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Seems too long, I'm not finding enough energy to complete the 6 pillars, let alone this one. Any chapters I should really read? Dont want to read the whole thing.

Whats the "John Wren Lewis" article? I'd like to read it. Seems a short read.

June 10, 2006
7:49 pm
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guest_guest
10-Jun-06

"Seems too long, I'm not finding enough energy to complete the 6 pillars, let alone this one. Any chapters I should really read? Dont want to read the whole thing."

If your are not prepared to make the effort yourself then you're 'not yet ready'. I'm not about to do your footwork for you, bro.

And you said:

"Whats the "John Wren Lewis" article? I'd like to read it. Seems a short read."

Don't bother - I think it will require mental effort too.

If I'm wrong then click this link for the article.

June 11, 2006
1:43 am
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I'll read that article definitely atleast. Maybe I havent asked but, what will it involve to "get ready"? What will I have to do? Yea I know, I'm lazy often, dont want to do the mental work so maybe my gain is low too. Hmmmm.

June 11, 2006
3:11 pm
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Tez 06-09-06 you posted to me,

"As you have realized, when we play the victim we are blaming others for our 'predicament'.
Since we accredit others with having such power over us as victims, we are therein effectively disempowering our own minds and empowering theirs."

So, once realising I have to take responsibility for my "victimisation", I realise that as long as I stay in any situation in which I feel abused, or victimised, I become a Volunteer.

Even after I got out of the physically abusive situation I was in, I found I was doing the same things with my female friends. I was allowing them to take advantage of me, in one way or another. As long as I stayed in that pattern, I was a Volunteer.

Because of our discussion about God as a Person, I am thinking about belief systems. One hard lesson was when I realised my parents did not know all the answers. I felt so betrayed! But I am taking it further, to the beliefs I have as American-born. The beliefs that have been pounded into my subconscious since I was a baby.. Beliefs I have as a woman. My mother told me I would NEVER keep a man if I couldn't fry an egg or make my own biscuits. Of course I have found this isn't true, but I learned how to make the eggs and biscuits, anyway. ( She never told me that if I could do a couple of other things well, the man will get up and go get carryout! ) Church beliefs, of course. Osmotic beliefs from advertising, music, and movies. Beliefs we have as a family, about our culture. It is a pretty long list, isn't it?

I am still working on the D'Adamo book, and I did get it printed, but, as I read, I am finding my mind taking alot of little lateral side trips as I think about the ideas he presents. I have to stop and consider all the thoughts it is provoking.

Thanks Tez,

Bevdee

June 11, 2006
3:33 pm
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Guest, I thought of you today, when I found this googling.

With men, I have gone through the same things you have with your women. I set myself up for rejection, and that reinforced my feelings of low self-worth.

It took me a long time to figure out that the men I was attracting and selecting were not necessarily unavailable, but backtracked from ME, because I was the one who was emotionally unavailable. They saw it in me. Of course, I blamed them.

I am going through this checklist, and it is not easy for me, because I have to be honest with myself. I am finding that when I am not honest with myself, make excuses to myself, or lie to myself, I am left with a creepy knot of dread in the pit of my stomach. Anxiety. Erratic sleep habits.

And it is hard for me to be alone when I am not at peace with myself. I have filled that alone-ness with music, TV, chatting online, telephone conversations, reading, anything to cover up my mind-chatter. But I am happiest when I am sitting outside, alone, with my dogs, watching birds, and sometimes seeing a rabbit or a deer come up from the woods. When it is quiet.

I also have to remind myself that I do not have to answer to, account to, justify, or explain myself to anyone. When I did this, I was seeking approval from others. I had this great weight lifted from my mind, when I finally "got it".

I am the only one who I have to live with. I am the only one who I have to seek approval from. If I feel I need people to agree with me... then I need their approval. But it takes practice.

Here is what I found -
"The Victim Syndrome is a point of view, a way of seeing self and the world that is almost always self-destructive and frequently contributes to weight gain. It leads to powerlessness, blame, resentment. If the Victim Syndrome is not identified and managed it can destroy your body, your relationships and eventually, your life.
This toxic way of seeing self and life can be the result of actual victimization that was so traumatic that it poisoned the victim’s ability to return to a healthy view of life. It can also be a “family tradition” or way of seeing one’s position in society that has been passed down from generation to generation. Either way, the end result is the same. The Victim Syndrome

The Victim Syndrome Check List
To what degree do these items apply to your thinking, feeling and behaving? Be as honest as you can. Your sense of power, effectiveness, success and satisfaction in life could be at stake.
1. I often feel powerless to change my life for the better.
2. I harbor a great deal of resentment toward others.
3. I often blame others (spouse, parents, economy, lack of education, etc.) for the unhappy circumstances in my life.
4. I can easily name "good" reasons for why I cannot change.
5. I have many friends and family that agree with my "good"reasons.
6. I have a hard time forgiving others.
7. I have a hard time forgiving myself.
8. I dislike or am uncomfortable with the word "responsibility".
9. I resent and resist the idea of growing up.
10. I often fear life and its challenges.
11. When I am afraid I usually honor that fear and allow it to stop my productive action.
12. I often share my feelings of powerlessness with others.
13. I complain a lot.
14. I avoid people who encourage me to make positive changes.
15. I have not taken a significant risk in years.
16. I use my size, sex, education, etc. as an excuse for my passivity.
17. I have decided that one cannot heal from past trauma.
18. I refuse to make a list of positive changes I want in my life and begin to make a plan of action.
19. I think that all these items apply to someone else. "

Man, just think about one or two at a time. Sometimes trying to do it all at once is too painful, and we recoil from that, and retreat back to the old thought patterns. I know I have. It won't happen overnight.

Another website that looks promising is http://www.lessonsforliving.com. I haven't had a chance to look at it very much, though.

Guest, I know that you are stronger than your traumas. You have shown that by your survival of the physical and mental abuse. You have the same kind of BS detector that I do, in that you see past a lot of dogma and such. You are admirably tenacious. I think you are at a point right now to move forward. You want to.

Keep at it Guest,

Bevdee

June 11, 2006
3:36 pm
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I apologise for the weird way that pasted over, I forget about the double spacing you have to do on this site.

Bevdee

June 11, 2006
8:32 pm
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Guest_guest

On 11-Jun-06 you asked:

" ... what will it involve to "get ready"?"

You may not realize it but this is a very deep question.

IMHO you will have to chase all your 'rainbows' looking for the proverbial 'pots of gold' in order to realize that chasing rainbows is a delusion and that the 'gold' doesn't exist.

At the moment one of your 'pots of gold' is 'cutie pie'. The 'rainbow' that you think will get you that 'pot of gold' is 'high self-esteem'. But underpinning all this is your firm and unequivocal belief in the existence of your permanent, independent, indivisible 'self' who you think needs to possess this or another 'pot of gold' like it in order to be happy.

When you have 'found' that the contents of all your pots of gold are like the will-o-the-wisp that slips through your fingers and cannot be grasped, then you might realize that your world view is a delusion. Then you might be ready to listen to what others have done with their lives after arriving at that point. The Buddha was one such historical person who arrived at that point early on in his life.

At this juncture I think that you think that if you could only get your esteem up to some imaginary high level then you would be able to win and possess your cutie pie or another like her and you would then be in heaven.

I suspect that you are only interested in a quick fix holy grail from which to drink in order to be transformed your 'personality' into this new person whom you think will be able to permanently get what you think will make you happy.

But who and where is this 'you' that 'owns' the personality that you want to transform? IMHO, you are not yet ready to even ask this question of yourself let alone answer it.

I am not being nasty here. After years of reading your postings, I am just giving you my truth about you as I see it. If I am wrong then so be it. If I am right then seeds might be planted here that might bear fruit for you years hence - probably long after I'm dead.

June 11, 2006
8:44 pm
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Bevdee

On the 11-Jun-06 you said:

"I am still working on the D'Adamo book, and I did get it printed, but, as I read, I am finding my mind taking alot of little lateral side trips as I think about the ideas he presents. I have to stop and consider all the thoughts it is provoking. "

That is the real value of D'Adamo's book for me. It is very thought provoking. He has assembled quotes from many masters in the context of the deep questions concerning the meaning of human existence.

"He who knows the 'why' can bear any 'how'." - Friedrich Nietzsche

June 11, 2006
8:53 pm
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Bevdee

Your post on 11-Jun-06 written in response to Guest-guest contained much wisdom. It was excellent.

June 12, 2006
11:41 am
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bevdee thanks! Yea it was nice advice. A little bit of that "I dont have to seek approval from anyone" sank into me for a bit yesterday.

Yea I can see past dogma, thats the only clarity I've achieved in life so far.

Its still difficult, at this time everything seems hopeless. I see people living their lives and I just feel, that I dont have what it takes, I cant do it :(( hopeless. Dont waste your advice on me though, it doesnt effect me much, gonna only make u tired.

hi Tez_______

thanks. I remember now you also had to chase the different paths.

OMG, I'm so sleepy right now, feeling really horrible. Cant think. Everything is hopeless. you guys carry on, this isnt my place to rant, I'll do that in my own thread.

June 12, 2006
5:18 pm
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Guest -

06-12-06 - you say "Its still difficult, at this time everything seems hopeless. I see people living their lives and I just feel, that I dont have what it takes, I cant do it."

Just remember that you don't have to compare yourself to anyone.
You don't have to go at any rate but your own.

Forgiving myself for not being perfect and no tbeing ALL THAT was the hardest thing for me to do, but that is where I had to start.

In the dead center of my deepest despair, one of my cousins visited me from another state. He looked at me and said, "S**t, babygirl, you don't even sit up straight no more.(he is a rdedneck!!) You need to remember who you are. You bet not let no one take that from you! " (honestly, that's ow he talks)

I started sitting up straighter. I slowly quit beating myself up.

You'll get there, Guest

Bevdee

June 12, 2006
5:30 pm
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hi bevdee, replied in my diary thread, thanks.

June 17, 2006
9:50 pm
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TEZ -
It has taken me a while to get back to the library. I am training at a new job, so my schedule has changed, for a few weeks. But I am STILL reading! I am STILL thinking!!

re: a scientific religion -
From p. 160
"So, while it might accept some of
the ideas of Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Ramakrishna, and Buddha, it
might reject others. A scientific religion would not be Christian,
Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, or Buddhist but, no less than pharmacology,
would constitute its own integral discipline."

Tez, don't you think alot of people are doing just this? I know I am, and if I correctly gauge what you post here, so are you. I see the "christians" doing that as well, in discounting the inconsistencies of that bible, by saying, in essence, take the lesson from the book, and don't take all of it literally.

A few years ago, I decided to let go of dogma. Concentrate on myself. If asked to define spirituality, I think I would have to say it is an individual's journey in finding inner peace. If something works for me (at the time), to learn more about myself, then I use it. When it doesn't, I let it go. So, this might be very loosely considered a scientific way. ? ?

But, I find this paradox in myself - While I reject christianity, and some other religions because of unsubstantiated claims, I believe some of astrology, and I believe there are ghosts or spirits padding around. The only proof I have found with astrology is recognizing characteristics of myself and the people I know with those listed in their astrological sign.

And there is no proof of the spirits, except that my sister agrees that she has seen some of the "unexplainable things" I have seen and heard. Some form of energy?
I know that "energy can't be created or destroyed, it can only change forms." If our soul is energy, and "god" is in us and "god" is the energy, then "god" lives in us, this is our spirit, not our mind. Where does the spirit "go, after death? The mind dies. ( I know, it ain't an original question)

So there I am in a "loop" !!

Also, from D'Adamo's book -
p. 179
Modes of Light
As we've seen, some mystics transcend the triad of knower, knowing
and known, to achieve unitive knowledge of the Real. For them, the
vision of pure Isness is so absorbing they lose consciousness of the
universe. Some never return from that vision; after a few days their
body dies. "

I think this must be my fear. Of never returning? We previously discussed the nausea and fear I experienced with OBE.

Here's a maybe -- Is seeing the "kingdom of heaven", or the "Light", the spirit or soul's release from the physical body? The mind? Release by death, or perhaps voluntary or involuntary OBE? OR - after the mind has been freed of restraints such as fear, anxiety, etc. ?

Also - p.184
"[I]n our downfall, we fell away from God . . . and fell
into the flesh; thereby we went outside ourselves and
began to seek for joys and comforts there. Our senses
became our guides and intermediaries in this. Through
them the soul goes outside and tastes the things
experienced by each sense. ([U02],128).
But why call it a descent into "flesh"? Probably because the body, the
"flesh," is the instrument of sense perception. When consciousness is
aware of the body, it's usually aware of pairs of opposites -
pleasant/unpleasant, hot/cold, etc."

p.182 "It's the world Adam saw before the fall, and anyone who sees the world in this way sees the world that Adam saw. " guilt? Sin?

p.183" Writes Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook:
Love in its most luminous aspect has its being beyond
the world, in the divine realm, where there are no
contradictions, limits and opposition; only bliss and
good . . . "

hmm

And here is what I have been thinking about. All those mytics, seers, knowers.... there is a common vein, in all their writings. The light. How many hundreds and hundreds of years ago. What did they know, and what have we missed because of loss in the translation? And all the questing for God, with the churching and preaching and dogma - has that simply been a misguided endeavor to find the god IN us?

Another thing that I find curious - In all the introspection, and questioning my beliefs, I find myself crying all the time! I can't seem to stop.

Bevdee

June 19, 2006
5:37 pm
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Tez,

Thank you for the Tich Naht Hanh. What I got out of that was to accept what I am, and the gifts I was born with. " But if she bends down and touches the nature of water within her, she sees that she is in the other waves, the other waves are in her, and there is really no beginning and no end, and because of that she gets out of fear, and discrimination and jealousy. So touching the historical dimension deeply, you touch the ultimate dimension."

So, in a nutshell, if I never accept myself, my emotions, my mistakes, my gifts, I will be stuck right where I am.

Bevdee

June 20, 2006
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bevdee
17-Jun-06

"re: a scientific religion - From p. 160 "So, while it might accept some of the ideas of Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Ramakrishna, and Buddha, it might reject others. A scientific religion would not be Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, or Buddhist but, no less than pharmacology, would constitute its own integral discipline."

Tez, don't you think alot of people are doing just this?"

No I don't think that many if any people do this in a scientific way, IMO. They just go by their 'gut feelings', wishful thinking, previous socialization, enculturation etc.

In your quote, I think that D'Adamo is making the point that some so called 'knowledge' within the scriptures and traditions of those religions is doctrinal and is referencing a God who is a Person. Since such a belief is not rationally based and not empirically testable it is beyond the realm of a scientific religion. Such knowledge would fall soley within the domain of religion. I base this opinion of what D'Adamo is saying by what he previously wrote on page 159, where he said:

"As we've seen, Gods who are Persons would not be in the domain
of a scientific religion. Therefore, no claims would be made about
Gods such as Jesus and Jehovah, Krishna and Allah. Statements such
as Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, Jews are God's chosen
people, Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets, etc., would remain in
the domain of religion."

On the other hand, D'Adamo believes that mystical ways of knowing might be empirically testable yielding knowledge that can be falsified by being subjected to 'peer reviews' for repetitive testing and analysis prior to validation if significant results are obtained.

I substantiate this belief of mine about what D'Adamo believes in this regard by his previous statement on P 159 wherein he said:

"We've seen that science's domain already includes the Ultimate
Ground of Existence, because the eternal Basis of the universe is
already studied objectively, "from the outside," by nuclear physics
and, in a sense, by all the sciences. Now, through the acquisition of a
scientific religion, science's domain would gain the study of the
Uncaused Cause "from within." Direct experience - mystical
experience - of the Eternal Root would be incorporated into science's
domain. A scientific religion would use the instrument of mystical
awareness to study and explore the Eternal Ground of Existence."

Of course this would require the establishment of a network of scientific religious communities. Such peer reviewing suggests the formation of a Journal of Scientific Religion. That way a network of interested mystics might 'work' together replicating experimental techniques in meditation, etc, in their attempts to validate or falsify the findings of others.

And you continued saying:

" ... if I correctly gauge what you post here, so are you."

No I don't think that I do, just accept the beliefs of any religion on their prima facae value. If I find a religious belief is completely irrational, I reject it out of hand. That is why I reject the existence of any God who is a Person - especially that of the Christian God who is ofteh categorized as such. However, Christian mystics don't seem to classify their God as being a Person. Miester Echart was in big trouble on this very issue.

Angelus Silesius was another Christian mystic who did not experiences his God as a Person.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius Wrote:

"Turn wheresoe'er I will, I find no evidence of End, Beginning, Centre or Circumference."

BevDee, if you try to find the end, beginning, centre or circumference of anything, the 'self' included, and none of these 'things' can in reality be found! They all exist only in our minds as we create mental objects out of the raw data that comes through our eyes, ears, nose etc.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"A Loaf holds many grains of corn
And many myriad drops the Sea:
So is God's Oneness Multitude
And that great Multitude are we."

Wow! We are the Ultimate Essence - the Tathagata, the Buddha Mind, the FountainHead, That Which Is.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"The All proceedeth from the One,
And into One must All regress:
If otherwise, the All remains
Asunder-riven manyness."

Prof John Wren Lewis experienced just this in his post NDE life at ALL times.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"God is an utter Nothingness,
Beyond the touch of Time and Place:
The more thou graspest after Him,
The more he fleeth thy embrace."

Silesius is definitely stating that God is NOT a Person here.
Utter No-Thing-ness does not mean non-existent!!! It means God cannot be defined, experienced or thought of as a Person, Place or Thing.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"What Cherubs know sufficeth not: beyond their zone
I fain would take my flight unto where nothing's known."

This is very ZEN in the strictest sense and very powerful. To me this means letting go of ALL preconditioning of the mind and therein seeing 'What IS' without reference to any 'self' whatsoever who is doing the seeing.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"Naught ever can be known in God: One and Alone
Is He. To know Him, Knower must be one with Known."

Again I interpret this to mean God is Pure Mind untainted by all the delusions of 'selfhood', of permanence, of self identity, of duality.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"One only Thing I love and know not what it is:
Because I know it not, therefore I've chosen this."

Again this is very ZEN and very powerful. To me this means letting go of ALL preconditioning of the mind and therein seeing 'What IS' without any vision contaminated by misconceptions of time, space and form being the ultimate reality.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"The more thou knowest God, the more thou wilt confess
That what He truly is, thou knowest less and less."

Thus Ultimate Knowledge of God implies knowing absolutely No-Thing-Ness.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"If gazing on the Sun endangereth thy sight,
The blame is in thine eyes, and not in that great Light."

Fear of letting go of our preconditioning and fear of mystical experiences in touching the Ultimate Essence is our fault - not the Godhead's.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"We pray: Thy Will be done! and lo! He hath no Will:
God in His changelessness eternally is still."

Only our minds move - naught else. What are the implications of this!!!

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"Rested God never hath, nor toiled—'tis manifest,
For all His rest is work and all His work is rest."

All that is manifest is impermanent and subject to change - yet all is based upon the changeless that is not manifest but always 'at rest'.

"The secret of Eternal Motion thou wouldst learn,
I, of Eternal Rest: which is of more concern?"

Humanity craves to know the ultimate secrets of the universe. Yet is it not more important to learn 'Who It Is' that we really are?

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"If thou dost love a Something, Man,
Thou lovest naught that doth abide.
God is not This nor That—do thou
Leave Somethings utterly aside."

Humanity, if you cling to the delusion of Thing-Ness, you love some 'thing' that is ever changing and will pass away like a mirage. God is not a Person, neither is 'he' a Supreme Entity. Let go of the delusion of 'Thingness' altogether and discover That Which Is.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"God feeleth pain for sin in thee
 As in His son,
But in His Self of Deity
 He feeleth none."

We are the Pure Mind, the Buddha Mind, the Tathagata, suffering in our ignorance of who we are.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"Choose, Man, which of the twain thou wilt,
Thy self-destruction or thy peace.
Through thee God suffereth no loss,
Neither through thee hath He increase."

The Ultimate Essence is unaffected by our choices. There is nothing that can give to or take from the Ultimate Essence. The manifest All is the mind moving.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"God is so dear unto Himself,
Folded in self so utterly,
That He can never cherish love
For anything that is not He."

There is no 'other' than the Ultimate. All is 'That' totally enfolded on all that 'Is'!

"God foresees nothing—'tis thy dull and blundering sense
Doth clothe Him with the attribute of Providence."

Man made the God who is a Person.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"God thinketh naught. Yea verily,
Were thought in Him, then might He sway
—Which were a thing unthinkable—
Now this way, now the other way."

Wow!! God doesn't think! Thinking requires a conditioned mind. God is the great 'Unconditioned' the Ultimate from which our minds are manifest.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"God is, but in God-wise. He loves and lives, 'tis true,
But not as I or thou or other beings do."

The Ultimate Essence exists but not as a Person. God is not anthropomorphic.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"Since thou dost measure God by creature qualities,
There's more of lie than truth in thy theologies."

Because they are based on our human qualities and values, the majority of religious beliefs are falsehoods.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"Eternal Spirit, God becomes
All that He wills to be—but still
Abideth ever as He is,
Without a form, an aim, a will."

Though the Ultimate manifests, It remains changelessly without form or desire. Only the 'manifest', the illusory, the conditioned mind creates form, aims, and desires.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"No creature fathometh how deep the Godhead is,
Even the soul of Christ is lost in that Abyss."

The Infinite cannot be plumbed - not even by Christ, the Buddha, or any other.

"God is a Spirit, a Fire, a Being and a Flame,
And yet again He is not one of all these same."

There is nothing in creation that is even remotely like the Ultimate - yet the Ultimate pervades all.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

"Here in the midst of Time God doth become what He,
The Unbecome, was not in all Eternity."

Time is an illusion created by conditioned mind. Eternity, beyond time, is not a 'thing' of which 'time' is a subset. The conditioned mind is a 'subset' of the Ultimate Pure Mind yet Pure Mind, the Ultimate never came from anything(UnBecome)- the Ultimate always Was.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:

God hath begotten me—such my true genesis,
But do thou never ask me who my Mother is."

The conditioned mind came from the unconditioned Pure Mind but never ask how this happened!

June 20, 2006
5:29 pm
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Tez,

Thank you for this last post. I want to apologise to you for attributing to you MY thoughts and musings. I really hate it when people do that with me.

I am such an impatient person, and I apologise for rushing, and not communicating what I wanted to say very well. I need to take my own advice, and not try to do it all in one or two days. My indoctrination runs deep. It is going to take a while, and alot of reading. I don't want to make a rush to judgement, so to speak.

Now I am going to sit back, slowly read, and consider the info you have presented me with.

Thanks, Bevdee

June 21, 2006
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bevdee
20-Jun-06

"Tez,... I want to apologise ..."

Absolutely no need to apologize whatsoever. I did not even take the slightest offense. In fact it was not until you explained why you were apologizing that I understood why you were doing so.

I only rarely take offense these days. Sometimes I get irritated or impatient with someone who I suspect is 'game playing'(OneUpManShip) or is downright intellectually 'lazy'. Then I generally ignore their post and spend my time in a more worthwhile way. But NONE of these things apply to you, I assure you.

I just realized what a long post my last post was. I'm quite intrigued by the 'Christian' mystics. It seems that the Christian Hierarchy couldn't understand their writings or the surely would have excommunicated them at least. Angelus Silesius would be quite at home in discussing his concepts of the Ultimate Essence with the Buddha. I see much in common with the non-personal God of Silesius and that of the Buddha's Tathagata. When the Buddha said that there was no God I think that what he meant was 'that there doesn't exist a God who is a Person ' or a Being .

June 21, 2006
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Intellectually lazy.. thats me, sometimes.

June 23, 2006
6:31 pm
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Tez,

I wanted you to know I am still here. I have not read too much because I had sort of a melt down this week. Alot of emotion I had crunched down has surfaced. I will thank you and Free2choose for your posts if/when I stop crying.

I read on another site that negative thoughts will continue to return because it is something you need to work through. And all these years I just kept shoving them away, pushing them down. I have gotten veryvery good at it. But it makes me sick, physically. I thought of this and what you said about just experiencing the emotion, and thought why not try that? Well, here I am, still experiencing the sorrow I would not allow myself to feel. I cried in the middle of the grocery store last week. I am so exhausted from the crying, I am asleep at 8 pm!

But! Last weekend, I learned to drive a jet ski, and loved it! I completely blissed out, got lost on the lake, and went about 20 miles from my cove. I have been the butt of the jokes at my house, I am weirdly (life-jacket) sunburned, peeling, and I don't care, because it was just....bliss. I am going to do it again!!

When you said, - "I'm quite intrigued by the 'Christian' mystics. It seems that the Christian Hierarchy couldn't understand their writings or the surely would have excommunicated them at least. "

This is what I meant when I said 06-17-06 -
" And here is what I have been thinking about. All those mytics, seers, knowers.... there is a common vein, in all their writings. The light. How many hundreds and hundreds of years ago. What did they know, and what have we missed because of loss in the translation? And all the questing for God, with the churching and preaching and dogma - has that simply been a misguided endeavor to find the god IN us?"

Here is a thought - maybe the leaders of the "church" were frightened by the knowledge of the mystics, and changed the translation because if we ( common people) had the knowledge -- no one would need that "church" I'm thinking that is why the church is so quick to label unknown thoughts and ideas as "satanic". hmmm. I told you earlier, I see it as very co-dependant!

Still another thought!! - Maybe (maybe) they simply couldn't understand, but had to attach SOME meaning to it, and it got lost in translation, or just mangled. That is what I was trying to say. We will never know, will we?

AND -
"Of the GODHEAD Silesius also said:
God hath begotten me?such my true genesis, But do thou never ask me who my Mother is."

Tez!! You are not just trying to get me goin, are you? Cause an innocuous little statement like this is guaranteed to get me goin! This is my particular bone of contention!!
And you put it at the end!!

Whether you realise it or not, reading your posts have really helped me. Even the ones I have not participated in. I have sensed you through your posts, and I find you to be a very real person. You seem to have alot of knowledge and perception, with no pretension. You are honest about your emotions.

I am impressed by the reading you do, and the type of reading! I admire(and envy) the way you have of coming in and saying exactly what I have been struggling with to put into words. How do you DO that? And not necessarily in response to me, but in another thread.

And I think you show quite a bit of patience, on these boards, you know what I mean - nuff said bout that!!

Thank you again, Tez
Bevdee

June 24, 2006
10:37 pm
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Bevdee
On the 23-Jun-06 you said:

"... if/when I stop crying."

Excuse my ignorance - you've had a loss of a loved one?

Also, thanks for the compliments - mostly undeserved, I fear.

You also said:

"Here is a thought - maybe the leaders of the "church" were frightened by the knowledge of the mystics, and changed the translation because if we ( common people) had the knowledge -- no one would need that "church""

Possibly you are right in implying that it's all about power.

However, I suspect that the church fathers, theologins and scholars have always been caught up in the duality of 'self' and 'other'. Those that weren't soon found themselves in trouble. e. g. Miester Echart and Hans Kung.

My partner is still grieving over the loss of her son who died on the 2nd April 2006. I said to her:

"'Billy' was a label that you assigned to the baby that you bore 32 years ago. The Essence of that label still goes on. Sure, the atoms of the body are prtesently rearranging themselves just as they did at conception. In fact we all have bodies made up of atoms that came from the dying stars.

Given enough time the surface of this planet 'earth' will look like the surface of the planet Mars. Time is a construct of the human mind and 'matter' is constructed of patterns of the Essence of that mind.

The Essence that you named 'Billy' is presently awaiting the next phase of the birth, life and death cycle that permeates all living things.

No 'thing' ever comes into existence from no 'thing' or goes out of existence into no 'thing'. All is as it's meant to be.

Your suffering is the direct result of your imagined 'loss'. There never was a 'Billy' that was yours to 'lose'. He was a process that neither started with birth nor ended in his death. Both were just arbitary stages in an ongoing process that was named and labeled as birth and death by misguided humans eons ago and ever since. Both are transitions not 'beginnings' and 'ends'."

This seemed to make her feel a little better.

The duality that is causing pain here is my partner seeing herself as an independent, permanent, indivisible entity who had somehow lost another independent, permanent, indivisible entity when she shouldn't have.

When we see ourselves as as a 'self' and all else as completely separate and 'other' than us we set ourselves up for either the loss or deprivation of whatever it is that we deem necessary for our wellbeing and happiness. Then when the cycle of birth, life and death spins we suffer terribly. It is extremely hard for us humans to not be dualistic. Yet despite our conviction that it exists as an independent, permanent, indivisible entity, no one seems able to define the barriers, borders and limits ot this so called 'self' that we commonly point to when asked to do so.

Mystics find and have found time and time again that no such independent, permanent, indivisible self other than the Essence exists.

Of the GODHEAD Silesius said:

"God hath begotten me—such my true genesis, But do thou never ask me who my Mother is."

Silesius was strongly hinting at his true 'unborn' nature that carries the misnomer 'self' yet is borderless and infinite. The mystics see this in their 'visions' of Ultimate Reality.

You said:

"I'm thinking that is why the church is so quick to label unknown thoughts and ideas as "satanic". hmmm. I told you earlier, I see it as very co-dependant!"

You can obviously see the 'duality' permeating the Church's thinking. God/Satan, good/evil, etc are all products of discriminating, differentiating dualistic human minds locked into preconditioned ignorance.

To an earth worm a chicken is the vilest of evil demons tearing at and devouring it without the slightest hesitation. Yet we see the cute little chicken as beautiful, innocent and good. All because it doesn't threaten us in any way. Imagine how we would classify aliens with a vastly superior intelligence to our own who set up Super Markets containing cooked and preserved human body parts for their consumption. Imagine them setting up human abbatoirs and them processing thousands of fat battery fed humans every day. Imagine one of us protesting humans being told by their alien clergymen that God had made us humans for their consumption and that our lower intelligence justified our execution. Christians would probably scream: "This is the vilest of evils!!! Surely Satan caused this."

From my understanding, mystics don't generally have such a dualistic paradigm of thinking - thus their writings don't make sense to the dualisticly thinking minds of the church hierarchy.

The Gospel according to St. Thomas is very mystical in nature. Thus it was excluded from the bible together with many other Gospels. As you know only 4 made it. Hmmm!! Gnostics were even persecuted and put to death by the early 'Christian' church. Christ would have disowned his own religion were he alive then.

June 26, 2006
3:07 pm
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Tez

You asked - "Bevdee On the 23-Jun-06 you said:
"... if/when I stop crying."
Excuse my ignorance - you've had a loss of a loved one?"

In a sense, yes. I guess it is the loss of a loved one. I have suppressed grieving a loss from 4 years ago, and now that I am bringing all this stuff to the surface, I am experiencing the pain I told myself I did not feel. I have let my emotions stay blocked like this for 4 years. It has been making me sick. I posted it to free2choose in the porn thread. Since writing that post, I have been crying more than usual.

It helped me to read - "Your suffering is the direct result of your imagined 'loss'. There never was a 'Billy' that was yours to 'lose'. He was a process that neither started with birth nor ended in his death. Both were just arbitary stages in an ongoing process that was named and labeled as birth and death by misguided humans eons ago and ever since. Both are transitions not 'beginnings' and 'ends'."

This has got me thinking about my cluttered mind. I wrapped myself in my pain, and it has kept me from growth. I am struggling with letting go of the old, this is everything. My upbringing - things my mother told me, lessons my daddy taught me. Ideas I held dear, safe and comforting.

Do you remember your onion analogy? I think I am a great big ole onion. I have layers of pain I have refused to deal with. Wrapped in denial. wrapped in lies to myself. Wrapped in more hurt. I feel like I have to be perfect. I feel that I must present this perfect persona to the world, Te crying in the grocery store? I was mortified, you see, I don't do that!

Even though I know I am not perfect, I hate to admit to anyone that I trip, stumble, fail, hurt. I'M COOL. I tell myself that, too, hoping if I tell it to myself enough, it will come true. It hasn't.

To be honest with myself is the challenge, Because when I am honest, and admit any fault to myself, there is a little vicious voice inside that gives me hell for not being perfect. That voice used to give me hell for everything. I have worked very hard to get rid of this self-flagellation, but sometimes? That whipping voice comes back.

Funny that I can spot B.S. in others, but not myself?

From another post you wrote - "It appears that when the mind discovers who and what it really is all boundaries of the mind disappear together with with the delusions of 'self-hood'.
Conversely, if we believe that our minds are confined to the domain of our physical brain then our mind's boundaries shrink - loneliness and feelings of isolation soon follow. "

I am seeing that until I am able to clear from my mind the old belief system that I created, ( self-destructive thoughts, toxic belief system), I don't think I can begin to touch on the light within me, that would enable my mind to go out of the physical brain's domain.

In simple terms, I need to get real with myself. And I am scared.

Bevdee

(I am still reading D'Adamo, little bits at a time)

June 26, 2006
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bevdee

On the 26-Jun-06 you said:

"In simple terms, I need to get real with myself. And I am scared."

I can understand that. If you are anything like me you are probably frightened by the prospect of discovering that you are not worthy of love from either yourself or from others.

I read a little about your relationship with this spunky, genuine guy of your that both meets your sexual needs but engenders feelings of guilt in you. I hope that I've got that right.

You implied that you 'hold back' your emotional self from getting too hooked on this guy. Is it because you fear a repetition of what happened 4 years ago? I am presuming that 4 years ago you came out of a very painful addictive relationship. Is this so?

Is your desire to find a 'rock' within you that will give you what your emotional self craves?

Is that inner need for a 'rock' what motivates you to find your 'true' self yet terrifies you in case you find out that no such 'rock' exists?

Is this what I hear you saying to me?

June 27, 2006
4:48 pm
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Tez,
As always, it is nice to hear from you. I would not mind at all if you joined in any thread I am in. I value your opinions and insights.

When you said "You implied that you 'hold back' your emotional self from getting too hooked on this guy. Is it because you fear a repetition of what happened 4 years ago? I am presuming that 4 years ago you came out of a very painful addictive relationship. Is this so?"

Partly so. It was 10 years ago. If you will go to the original Porn (Men don't get it) thread, and read 2 of my posts to Free2choose, the one from 6/17/06, and the next one from 6/19/06. This describes the toxic relationship I was in, and the one following it that broke my heart. As for that last one, if I am honest with myself, I would admit I probably knew it was doomed from the start, too, just from the circumstances.

I am sorry that these posts are so long.

You asked - "I read a little about your relationship with this spunky, genuine guy of your that both meets your sexual needs but engenders feelings of guilt in you. I hope that I've got that right."

Yes, you nailed it there, Tez. It is guilt, because I hold back, and I guess I am afraid that if I entrust my heart to someone again, it will be rejected. Again. I am afraid to let him get to know me too well. I am SO afraid.

The other times I have done that, I seem to have been found lacking, and have been rejected, for some reason. So I hide behind the sex , behind surface talk, I entertain him with stories, and make him laugh. Sex and jokes, I do well, other than that, not so well.

I have always hidden behind making people laugh.

And it is guilt because I am not allowing intimacy, so I am feeling creepy, because it is starting to seem like I am using him for sex. That makes me the creep, I reckon.

I don't know if I can love myself the way I deserve to be loved. That makes little sense, but that is the best I know to convey the way I feel, right now. I just flat don't know if I have it in me.

And as for feeling unworthy? Yeah. This makes no sense, either. I still have friends I made in high school. I know there are people who love me, which makes me loveable, right? Why am I so stubborn about letting go to love myself?

You asked - "Is that inner need for a 'rock' what motivates you to find your 'true' self yet terrifies you in case you find out that no such 'rock' exists?"

- well yes, the core we talked about, and my fear that there is no core. Or that I will unravel all the layers, and never be able to ravel it up again.

What will I do? running around with an exposed core?

Bevdee

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