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Science Without Bounds - the new religion?
June 4, 2006
3:25 am
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bevdee,

I had asked the following question of Tez, but he refused to answer it. I don't know why; it seems a reasonable enough question to me. Maybe he just doesn't know the answer, and I'm hoping you might.

In chapter one of his book, D'Amano seems to make no distinction between revelational knowledge itself and the written record of revelational knowledge. He discusses errors in the written record of revelation (e.g ., the Bible) as if it applies to revelational knowledge itself, and allegedly shows that the process of revelational knowledge is erroneous and cannot be trusted.

But a written record can become corrupted -- authors not being able to adequately express themselves, books getting lost, poor copies, scribal mistakes, translation issues, etc. could all contribute to add errors to a document that do not reflect upon the author's intent.

What do you say about this?

Seeker

June 4, 2006
3:40 am
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bevdee,

{Seeker, Would you look at this thread title?and re-read this? How far in this book have you read to be able to discuss the ideas presented there?}

For your information, I read Chapter 1 of his book, the chapter about revelational knowledge. This is the only chapter on which I have asked any questions.

BTW, threads often stray from what their original titles say. This has happened to almost every thread I have been started or participated in. I'm trying to engage in some honest discussion about the book.

June 4, 2006
5:25 am
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Seeker,

Here is what I got from that portion of the book. Without written documentation of revelation, we have no proof of said revelation, or the men that claim them. Since we know and admit that the documentation is corrupted, conflicting, and often erroneous, it cannot be accepted as fact.

I hope that I am not misunderstood, as in attacking anyone's beliefs. I am questioning mine, and searching for more answers than were ever given me, in the conventional way I was brought up.

Bevdee

June 4, 2006
11:54 am
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bevdee,

There's the problem. If science cannot prove something, it doesn't exist. That's assuming that science is capable of knowing everything. Perhaps science can potentially know everything that exists in the physical world, but revelation is not of this world. Therefore science cannot have an opinion on it, one way or the other.

Do you agree?

Seeker

June 4, 2006
1:46 pm
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Tez, yea thanks for the nice post! I get more than what I deserve but its alright, I hope you enjoyed the sharing. I guess I dont know how to lose my "self" or else I'd try and see what happened. Anyway I'm always looking for something that could work for me so I was interested in that mystic experience.. interesting. ok then I'll keep reading too.

June 4, 2006
1:48 pm
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hey Seeker, this is the bottomline in that post of bevdee's for you:

>> it cannot be accepted as fact. < <

June 4, 2006
5:54 pm
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hey guest,
but doesn't it matter who or what one loses their selves too? say for example, whoever you give your "self" to, becomes your center, because it is like turning it over to something.

seek,
i like what you say about "revelation not being of this world... therefore science cannot have an opinion on it." could not this also be an attribute of writings from all mystics, as it is also personal opinion as well?

bevdee,
it seems you have so many unanswered questions. i hope you can find some peace perhaps through different opinions here on this thread. =)

tez,
i think you and i will butt heads until the ends of the earth, but i still luv ya.

June 4, 2006
6:30 pm
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guest,

{>> it cannot be accepted as fact. < <} That is your opinion that it cannot be accepted as fact. It is not a fact.

June 4, 2006
6:35 pm
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one merry woman,

Thanks for what you said. Yes, we know that revelation is not of this world, yet those who don't know this will think it's a mental delusion or something else of this world. When they look for it and can't find it, they will incorrectly conclude it doesn't exist, because they had the ladder against the wrong wall all along.

The inescapable conclusion is that you can't find God without faith.

And true, mystics' writings cannot be construed as anything but their opinions.

June 4, 2006
6:41 pm
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Tez,

You'd cited my understanding of the word "mystic" as further proof of my "delusion". You're neither charitable nor very fair-minded.

You have rejected the notion of a personal revelation that doesn't fit in with your mindset of how it should be. That's why I rub you the wrong way, because I affirm I have received some.

Until you reconsider this, I'm afraid you will keep stumbling around in darkness, all your appeal to science notwithstanding. Don't get me wrong; I have a great respect for science myself. But it's not the savior that you think it is.

Here's a flashlight for you to use when you finally get tired of the darkness.

Seeker

June 4, 2006
7:20 pm
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>> The inescapable conclusion is that you can't find God without faith. < < Neither can you find the Kittens living inside my computer monitor, or my 7 winged pet dragon living beneath the surface of the Sun. OMW I dont even know what losing the self means. Hmm. Doesnt seem like I'll know. I just know that happy people with healthy parenting dont have to worry about it, so surely there might be another way I can be happy, asides the one Tez found.

June 4, 2006
8:01 pm
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guest,
i am not happy all of the time, and i had unhealthy parenting, but i do think i have an advantage in having God as my center. i still struggle, i have had to re-learn behaviors, but to me it only makes sense to turn my center over to God..i have the faith that he made me. one does not take a Ford to a Toyota dealer so to speak.

i can only speak for me, not you. i know what works for me, and have seen it work for so many others. i have worked with people for a very long time. but as i said, i am not perfect and have a ways to go myself, but looking to myself i will fail, looking to anything or anyone else will not satisfy me. losing self is essential, but very difficult at tiems, because it means giving control over to someone else. in my life God is the only constant.

kittens and dragons in your computer are unrealistic, and everyone knows it isn't so...the odds of that happening are nil unless they are pics or video on a website. God is at least a constant with some.

it is an individual belief, it's up to you.

June 4, 2006
8:05 pm
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To athiests, God is also unrealistic, thats my point. Yea, its whatever for everyone. It makes me happier to not believe in God. Everyone does what makes sense to them.

June 4, 2006
8:13 pm
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bevdee

Thanks for your post of 3-Jun-06.

You are a very clear communicator. You express yourself very well. You would be an asset to any employer who values this attribute.

You talk about your struggle to survive. It appears to me that this 'struggle' underpins most of our lives until we realize at a very deep level that there is no 'thing' that can be permanently gained or lost. All is in flux and passing. We humans seem to yearn for certitude and ultimate security. How we humans do that varies across the species.

You talked about the various ways that you do that. You mentioned getting and holding down a job, knowing that you are valued by men, a pretty apartment, etc. We all seem to be pulled by the need to maintain the welfare of this thing called 'self'.

John Lennon of the Beatles group wrote in one of his songs:"Life is what happens while we are planning something else." What is it that we seem to always be planning??? I think that the answer boils down to preoccupation with the welfare of this 'self' at the price of missing out on life as it actually "happens" - to quote Lennon.

You said:

"I asked myself, what is at my core? What if, at the very center of this core is only self-pity, blaming others for my mistakes, my stagnation? Do I even have a core?"

A good question. Years ago in Gestalt theraphy, the therapist unpeeled the 'layers of my onion' (Fritz Perls analogy). He said "who are you" I answered: "an electronics engineer". He retortes: "Yes - but what else?" to which I replied "An Instructor." He said: "Yes - but what else?" to which I replied: "A father." To which he replied: "Yes - but what else?" I said:"I'm a Roman Catholic." and surprise, surprise he said: "Yes - but what else?" By now I was a little uneasy. "Well - I'm a husband" and again he said: "Yes - but what else?". By now I was downright flustered. "I'm a bloody man!" and again he came back with you guessed it: "Yes - but what else?" to which I replied: "I'm flesh and blood with a brain." Again came the same question. I started to go within. "I have a mind" I said. "Yes - but what else?" he again said. Suddenly a terrible fear filled me. I saw a void at 'my' core! My 'I' did not exist as a separate permanent entity at all. My 'I' was a belief about the existence of an entity who possessed all these attributes. I found that this specious belief of mine was based upon Descarte's famous but flawed logic "I think therefore I am." I do believe that a process that I call 'I' does exist. I do believe that there is an 'awareness' of this process that is aware of 'my' experiences - an 'awareness' that my imaginary 'I' seems to possess - that is not brain dependent.

Dr. Joseph LeDoux(2002, p 1,6) poses the question:

"What makes us who we are?"

To which he answers:

"My notion of personality is pretty simple: it's that your "self",the essence of who you are, reflects patterns of interconnectivity between neurons in your brain. ... ... Given the importance of synaptic transmission in brain function, it should practically be a truism to say that the self is synaptic." He goes on in his book to give his neuroscientific research findings in detail to reinforce his view of 'self'.

I like to focus on the word "pattern". Neuroscience is already pushing its boundaries well into the structures of the brain and their functions. The quantum physicists are going even deeper into the nature of matter. Patterns of energy and notions of quantum fields are featuring prominently in this branch of science. What governs these patterns and the behavior of these fields? These are questions that are fast entering if not already within the domain of science.

What is the Ultimate Essense, the Ultimate Pattern Source upon which all of the universe depends - that which is dependent on no other? Science, a rational, intellectual way of knowing, may one day address this question.

We in the mean time have the most powerful electron microscope there is at our disposal - the human mind. We can have our own experiences of what this Ultimate Essence 'Is' in a very subjective non-scientific way of knowing, a mystical way of knowing that cannot be falsified as 'glittered when he walked' has correctly points out. Such a personal experience is therefore beyond the realm of science to either validate or disprove. However this doesn't arbitrate against science pushing its boundaries into that of the present religious domain and therein discrediting the ridiculous within that domain, in my view.

June 4, 2006
8:46 pm
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guest,

{Neither can you find the Kittens living inside my computer monitor, or my 7 winged pet dragon living beneath the surface of the Sun.}

In what way can these kittens or winged dragon make a practical difference in my life? If you tell me that, I can tell you how to determine whether these things are real or not.

June 4, 2006
8:59 pm
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Tez,
I agree with you in that, who we "are" is not determined by who we "are"...

so did you ever come up with an answer? it has taken me a long time to realize that my job does not define me, my money does not define me, my boys do not define me, but it has been a gruelling road, and lesson to learn. one of the first questions i fyou have noticed when you first meet someone, is "What do you do?", most can only handle the outward stuff and it makes for good small talk.

I had to at one point ask myself, "How many people know me for who I really am, and not for what I project or what I DO". I am still learning.

June 4, 2006
9:03 pm
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Seeker

>> In what way can these kittens or winged dragon make a practical difference in my life? < < I've asked this before and I think Rasputin gave the answer that there's SOME medical benefit of being spiritual, but thats not limited to Christian beleifs, it can be ANY thing. Infact having ANY purpose in life is helpful. What practical benefit do people get be believing in God? Give me facts, not opinions and prove that its the Christian God that brings the benefits.

June 4, 2006
9:05 pm
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seeker,
you raise a good point.

and guest, somehow I knew that no matter what i may have to say about God that you would disagree. ok. no problem. maybe don't listen to anyone, but glean what difference God can make in someone's life.

June 4, 2006
9:10 pm
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Tez

>> Suddenly a terrible fear filled me. I saw a void at 'my' core! < < You can be sure that people with healthy parenting and good self-esteem would not feel that fear. You do agree that not everyone's response to this inquiry in Gestalt would be fear or a negative emotion, right? What if a person says in a calm self-assured way "Thats it, I'm myself what I know myself of, there's nothing more". This is like Christians saying their God is right. I think you believe that your discovery that the self doesnt exist, applies to everyone. I probably would feel the same fear or depression if that asked the question but I'm pretty sure healthy happy people wouldnt experience negative emotions. But I'll be positive, in my good moods I wouldnt feel that fear. You found your core empty because there was no good self-esteem, self-love or self-acceptance. Thats what I think.

June 4, 2006
9:27 pm
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guest...there ya go...then whylisten to scientists? but i will tell you, your 7% is not accurate. and if you wait for a larger percentage of scientists to believe that you are comfortable with, you may never feel whole. think for and make that decision yourself. you are following athiest scientists...the other 93% believe in God.

ok, i haven't asked, but i am dieing to know....why do you pick on seeker so much? is it because so many girls here give him so much attention? and if it is, isn't that his right? didn't mean to be too blunt, but thought it best to ask.

June 4, 2006
9:51 pm
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I value the group of people (scientists) who are objective and rational while trying to know if something is true or not. Thats why I value their opinion.

hehe no.. that thing I told to seeker was something I wanted to tell him since some time. I guess I'd pick on anyone on this religious thread who was on the "other" side of the debate.

The girls giving attention or not isnt a big thing - what can I gain from this site on the "dating" side? Nothing. I dont have anything to gain.. I mean. How childish would it be of me to pursue that? a lot! heh.

June 4, 2006
9:54 pm
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I mean how childish would it be for me here, to get on someone's back just cause they got lots of girls talking to them, heh. Puleazzzze. I just look to msyelf, what am I here for, its for trying to improve myself. Dating sites, I got that thing going on somewhere else but not there.

June 4, 2006
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guest,
I value scientists as well, and their rational way of looking at life. But theologians are not irrational. I just don't get why it is considered a weakness to beleive in God. I think it is a weakness not too. It takes courage to beleive in something that you can't touch or taste or feel. Maybe you are happier not beleiving in God because if you did it would mean you would change, and that is scary. And I too know what that feels like. There are traits in me that need to change. But I asked God to show me what they were....it is scary for me right now. Changing involves pain, but I won't go throughit alone, I have guidance and I am being led. It is just different. He makes a difference in my life, HE is so real. And it's personal. It's a relationship.

I am not trying to talk you into anything.

But let me ask you this, what do you want and what do you beleie in, and will what you believe in lead you to where you want to be? If so..grat. If not, then maybe you should reconsider. You are doing alot of work on yourself, doesn't that get old and tiring?

June 4, 2006
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>> It takes courage to beleive in something that you can't touch or taste or feel. < < So you're saying it takes courage for one to be a Jew or a Muslim - e.g. ? >> Maybe you are happier not beleiving in God because if you did it would mean you would change, and that is scary. < < God used to be my only friend. I've been there, done that. There you go, you failed to tell me what difference he makes in your life. You know, probably 300 years from now (if the world survives) religion will be gone. Its happening less and less, you know it. Its no use of us talking, all you got is opinions and no facts. Yup. >> You are doing alot of work on yourself, doesn't that get old and tiring? < < No, why would it? Would one ever get tired of living a contented life, unless they got self-esteem issues? (happiness anxiety).

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