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Science Without Bounds - the new religion?
May 28, 2006
8:34 pm
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bevdee

On the 28-May-06 you said:

" The belief tentatively held by science?? So does this put science in the faith-loop?"

It is a delight and a breath of fresh air to post to you. You are obviously a deep thinker.

One of the strengths of the scientific way of knowing that is highlighted and expounded upon in D'Adamo's book, is science's willingness to change its beliefs when they are proven wrong. That is why I used the word 'tentatively'. D'Adamo makes this point strongly by showing how drastically scientific beliefs have changed over the centuries in dire contrast to those beliefs held as absolute truths by religion.

Yes, scientists do, IMHO, have a strong 'faith' in the validity of the scientific way of knowing as opposed to the absolute validity of the knowledge itself; that is, IMHO scientists have a strong faith in the philosophy of science. No reputable, open minded scientist would be likely to claim that all scientific 'facts' are beyond question.

So yes I guess scientists like all of us are in a loop of faith. But it is a faith based upon questioning of dynamic, everchanging beliefs. Every time I throw the light switch it is with the faith in my belief that the light will come on. But I question the way the electricity is being generated at our power houses in my locality. If the incandescent light bulb wasn't questioned by science as being the most efficient way of generating light we wouldn't have fluorescent tubes now.

I am not nor have I ever to my knowledge put down the concept of 'faith' per se. What I will have no truck with is blind faith in the veracity of the words of some scripture whatever the religion may be - including Buddhism, my current preference.

Though I belong to no religion, I, like the Buddhists that I have met, would warmly and wholeheartedly welcome science's intrusion into the domain of religion. I might then become a card carrying Buddhist. After all Einstien said that Buddhism was the religion of the future. I suspect that he based this 'belief' on the somewhat 'scientific' approach some Buddhists take towards interpreting some of the Buddha's teachings.

Just as the scientific way of knowing is superior in that it allowed humanity to discard the superstitions of the past, the scientific way of knowing ultimately where we came from, who we are and where we are going seems to me to hold the promise of humanity discarding what I think are some of the primitive tribal beliefs that are contained in the bible and other religious scriptures, including some Buddhist sutras.

I would be interested in your comments on D'Adamo's book if you can find the time to read it.

May 28, 2006
8:49 pm
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"... God has trusted us with the task ... He knew we would ... he knew there would be ... he knew we would have ... he knew that not all ... he gave would appear ....

But, he also knew that, ... he could inspire us ... he could also inspire ... God doesn't need for the Bible to be perfect."

Firstly you appear to 'know' with a high degree of certainty what your God 'knows'. On what basis do you claim to know what your God knows and what he inspires or doesn't inspire? What rationale do you employ to assure yourself of the probability of the validity of your 'knowledge' being high? Your subjective experiences perhaps? Certainly not the authority of the words of your Bible that you have obviously indicated contain errors.

Secondly, does your God have a personality human traits and feelings , perhaps testicles etc. Otherwise why do you refer to your God as a He? Can your God think and feel???

May 28, 2006
11:22 pm
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Tez,

The Bible, or more correctly my understanding of it, does not give me the authority to proclaim doctrine. Whatever I say about God is based upon personal revelation to me. No, he has never appeared to me, but I've prayed about many, many things, studied things out in my mind and heart, and God has answered me on as many subjects as I have pursued knowledge from him. In that aspect, I consider myself to be somewhat of a mystic.

I have no specific personal revelational knowledge on this subject, but I feel a deep conviction, the accumulation of answers to many prayers, that God is indeed like us in having a personality and human traits, feelings, and appearance, and that he wants us to become like him. I've received a testimony that the Bible is true (in spite of translational, scribal, and other issues), so I believe what it says about God being our Heavenly Father. I wouldn't be surprised if that means he's literally a man with all the requisite anatomical features.

May 29, 2006
8:28 am
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bevdee
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Tez,

I have started on the book.

Yes, superstition! I have felt that alot of worship, as i have seen it, was superstitious. If I am good, maybe someday I will catch this carrot in front of my nose! If I am "bad", I go to hell. Tell me tell me how to be good.

What terrifies me is the blind acceptance of credos. Blind, thoughtless, acceptance of what "holy" or "annointed" men tell the masses to think. Or a self-appointed dictator. I think that is dangerous. Like movie censorship. A preacher stands up and tells his congregation that this is a bad movie? When questioned, an honest man would have to admit that he never actually saw the movie for himself, and was told by superiors to tell trusating people it was evil!! What will they get away with next?

I see people going along with a status quo, because they are afraid of public backlash, or ostracism. I have learned that when people feel their belief system is being challenged, become very angry, and defensive. That, too concerns me.

Anything outside a narrow confined way of thinking is labelled bad, or, satanic.

Another site I like to visit, to learn of new viewpoints, is the chopra discussion boards. Some of the topics have less SNR than others.

In a town near to mine in the early 90s, I saw 2Live Crew perform, but they had been told by the police what songs they could and could NOT sing. This was on a Friday night, The following day, the KuKluxKlan held a rally in a park not too far from where 2Live had been censored. The KKK had police protecting them, and their right to free speech. I was amazed that no one saw the irony of this!

I do believe more in science. Many of the organised religions' creation stories defy basic reason, medical science, and credibility, and this is what started my mistrust, as a child. I just don't buy it. Sorry if I am rambling. I think I am going to read some of this book while I have the chance. Till later..
Shayla

May 29, 2006
10:02 am
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yep, as i keep saying too, "RELIGION" is nothing.

May 29, 2006
11:23 am
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Does God have testicles :O Good question.

Seeker

>> that he wants us to become like him. < < What is God's problem? If he wants clones, I'm sure he can do that himself. Why cant he accept me as I am? He doesnt love me because he doesnt accept me as I am. He wants me to be like him? BAH. How SELFISH of Him. Nope, I dont want to be like him. I want to be like ME. Wait, also: You dont even KNOW what he's thinking. You only have "convictions" as you say. Hang in the air, friend. Continue living life in a haze of convictions. Meanwhile, I know what and who I want to be. OMG, Seeker, seeing your plight I cannot tell you how thankful I am to have left my religion and seen the truth for what it is. Atleast that I did achieve in my life. >> the accumulation of answers to many prayers < < Yesterday there was a news of a skydiver plummeting to her death because she slipped out of her harness. A message on the yahoo message boards for that news items: "Bet she was prayin' all the way down. As usual, the prayers went unanswered." But I'm not trying convince you. I know you wont be because its next to impossible.

May 29, 2006
11:35 am
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yep, "RELIGION" does not work...

May 29, 2006
2:21 pm
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defination- religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny;

May 29, 2006
5:26 pm
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guest,

Do what you'll do and be who you'll be. All I can do is say what I'll say and let you go on your own way.

{message boards for that news items:

"Bet she was prayin' all the way down. As usual, the prayers went unanswered."}

The message board writer admits he doesn't know if she was even praying, yet says her prayers went unanswered.
He blatantly illogical is that?

Even if she was, we don't know that she wasn't meant to die at that moment -- we all die sometime. For all we know, God granted her great peace of mind and serenity as she fell, and received her unto himself. That would be the ultimate answer to a prayer.

You didn't convince me because you don't know all the facts.

May 29, 2006
5:46 pm
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>> For all we know, God granted her great peace of mind and serenity as she fell < < Ahaan. Nothing more peaceful and serene than falling 15,000 feet to your death. Ah..! Another member said at the board she died because "God needed her", that was funny. >> The message board writer admits he doesn't know if she was even praying < < I'm sure atleast one of the 300,000 people who died at the Tsunami were praying before they died.

May 29, 2006
6:09 pm
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I am not one to be spending much time on this thread, but I do wish to share one thought that has been with me for awhile. It was sparked by your mention of the Tsunami disaster, Guest and something Tez mentioned awhile back about animals eating animals for nature's natural survival.

This is it. One asks; "how could a loving and merciful God allow such disaster and people being killed?"

My personal answer is simple and two fold.

One ... it is an act of nature, the act of survival, the survivl of the fittest. Wild dogs in a paack run down a gazelle and begin to feast to fill their tummies. Along comes a lion and the wild dogs reluctantly leave while the lion carries the remaining carcass off to feed his family.

Two ... the earth is evolving, ever changing. Beneath the deep seas and mountains the earth creaks and shifts. Sooner of later you have earthquakes, tornadoes, Tsumani, hurricanes, lightning even kills. The earth has natural shifts in it and something will have to give sooner or later. We just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Was the earth designed for so much concrete and tall skyscrapers? We have redesigned nature at her best and er worst and expect Her to adapt to us???? She may revolt!

If so many people did not live in California, would there then be fewer lives lost with mudslids and fires? If everyone did not expect to move to Florida to retire to what they call "Paradise" here, would there be fewer poeple affected by the hurricanes? Probably yes. More poeple, the rates of damage and lives taken are higher.

We are standing at the wrong place at the wrong time!!!!!! That is my final answer.

And what are we doing with global warming and the fuels? We are messing and disrupting Mother Nature and we should think about what and why and how we are changing our world and try to adapt to it rather than expect it to adapt to us. I beleive we should stop blaming God or G-d or a higher power in all this and realize we are at the hands of our own consequences.

I know this is not exactly what this thread is about, but when we try to prove the existence or the failed goodness of a higher power to rationalize our beliefs or what we cannot competely ocmprehend, it just doesn't work; thru scientific based knowledge or however else one may try to prove or disprove.

To me, this is like trying to comprehend eternity; the universe beyond, where does eternity of the universe end? Incomprehensible. It is like running a long number; it can go on forever and ever which my mind at least cannot comprehen.

Thanks for the priviledge to be able to sound off here.

Carry on gentlemen and ladies.

May 29, 2006
6:13 pm
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Eternity is like infinity. That was the word I failed to add. Infinity. Who can explain or comprehend that?

May 29, 2006
6:40 pm
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sew, well i was talking about power of prayer. With so people praying so much all the time to God, one might think he might listen - but there's very tiny difference. I say there's none, but some studies show there's SOME.

Whats the use of praying. Not much. Look at the bottomline: Any difference in the lives of those who pray all the time, and those who are athiests? Not much. Bottomline.

May 29, 2006
7:16 pm
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Tez,

I am still reading. Slow going cause I am at work. I will get back here in a couple of days. Check out those other boards, Shayla

May 29, 2006
7:21 pm
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Guest, from your viewpoint because you are an aetheist, I can see how you can say this.

On the flip side, those who believe and seek their lives thru prayer would say quite the opposite of you!

May 29, 2006
8:00 pm
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bevdee

You said:

"Tez, I am still reading."

Yep - so am I. I'm up to page 294 by D'Adamo's page numbers and page 325 by the Adobe Reader page numbers.

Finding the time is not easy.

May 29, 2006
9:19 pm
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Seeker.

"Whatever I say about God is based upon personal revelation to me."

Whilst this may be true that you and others may have a belief in some God based upon this revelational way of knowing, this belief is not a scientific way of knowing.
D'Adamo's book is not about discouraging you from your way of knowing if you so choose it. It is about searching for scientific ways of knowing about where we came from, who we are, why we are here and where we are going after death. (Keywords - searching, scientific)

Since (See Guest_guest's research) an extremely high percentage of scientists do not believe in the conventional concepts of a God, surely if science can make inroads into scientific discoveries within religion's domain then this is a good thing. Then the vast majority of scientists who have left the fold, may find a new, more enlightened shepherd!

And about your God, you said:

"... No, he has never appeared to me, but I've prayed about many, many things, studied things out in my mind and heart, and God has answered me on as many subjects as I have pursued knowledge from him."

Yes and so have many homicidal maniacs throughout history who kill in God's name, done the same thing.

King Richard the Crusader springs to mind at the moment. But there are many more in other religions as well - e.g. the Mad Madhi. They supposedly had God's and Allah's will revealed to them through 'revelation' of one form or another through prayer before they goaded their gullible followers into horrific acts of barbarism. In fact Saladin and his Saracens appear to have been more civilized and humane than the Christian infidels lead by Richard the Crusader.

And then you followed with:

"I have no specific personal revelational knowledge on this subject, but I feel a deep conviction, the accumulation of answers to many prayers, that God is indeed like us in having a personality and human traits, feelings, and appearance, and that he wants us to become like him. I've received a testimony that the Bible is true (in spite of translational, scribal, and other issues), so I believe what it says about God being our Heavenly Father. I wouldn't be surprised if that means he's literally a man with all the requisite anatomical features."

From this last quote you obviously have an anthropomorphic concept of your God. Yet you also said:

"... In that aspect, I consider myself to be somewhat of a mystic."

Now I'm confused. You either have a very different understanding of what mysticism means than I do or your thinking is muddled.

D'Adamo's book devotes a portion of his book clarifying misunderstandings of what a mystic is, does and believes about his/her mystical experiences. Anthropomorphism is certainly incongruent with mysticism - unless I am under a huge misconception in this regard.

Sadly schizophrenics regard their experiences as very real indeed. Should their religious beliefs be based upon their revelational experiences if any? Would you advise that? If you offer up the weak argument that schishophrenics are sick and you are not then I will retort that there is a fine line between mental illness and so called 'normality. How do we know what side of the line you are on?

The respective branches of Science are bulwarks against delusional people spreading their delusions as gospel truths. Sometimes well meaning people slip through the 'cracks' and either start their own cult or misinterprete what genuine mystics such as Christ, Buddha etc say. Gullible followers perpetuate falsehoods through innocent children onto the next generations ad infinitum.

Science is and has been a less than perfect safeguard against 'ratbags' throughout history. Perhaps religion based terrorism wouldn't be happening now were science have been more successful in making inroads in explaining what seemed to be supernatural events in the past.

My dear old dad went to his death firmly believing that God made the sun travel in an arc across the sky at during the 'revelational visions' of the three children at Fatima. Strange that the earth and all the planets are still in the same orbit after such an event? I apologise to my dead father for my sarcasm and disbelief.

Since the beginning of the development of the neocortex, humanity has attributed to divine causes, both good and evil events that cannot readily be explained by what is normally called natural causes.

Maybe you would do well to liberate yourself from the shackles of the past. Read D'Adamo's book with an open mind. It is NOT the Holy Grail - but then neither is the bible according to your own admission of the errors contained therein. Who wants to drink from such a mythological cup anyway! One would end up crucified by one's own delusions!

May 29, 2006
9:32 pm
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guest,

{>> The message board writer admits he doesn't know if she was even praying < < I'm sure atleast one of the 300,000 people who died at the Tsunami were praying before they died. } I answer your questions, and I feel it never satisfies you. When I answer one question, such as about the falling skydiver, you immediately switch to another topic, the tsunami. If I answered it, you'd just jump right into another thing and not consider or acknowledge my tsunami reply. I won't answer you anymore on this thread. It's an unproductive use of my time and energy.

May 29, 2006
9:42 pm
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Tez,

By "mystic", I mean one who comes to knowledge without any apparent means of obtaining it. Since nobody can observe an act of revelation occuring, revelational knowledge is mystical knowledge in my book. So we merely have a disagreement of terms.

As far as homocidal maniacs, etc., professing to do things in teh name of God, you shall know them by their works. If they do good, it's of God; if they don't, it's not. That's the litmus test.

BTW, you haven't addressed what I consider the fundamental flaw with D what's his name? Chapter 1 -- he assumes that revelational knowledge is the same as the written record of revelational knowledge. He also doesn't address individual's experiences with receiving revelational knowledge. What do you say about that?

May 29, 2006
10:23 pm
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Thats ok Seeker, I'd asked you for science and I told you that Muslims, Jews and Hindus have the same experience with religion and in your case you call it "science". have fun.

May 29, 2006
10:43 pm
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>> He also doesn't address individual's experiences with receiving revelational knowledge. < < There's no such thing as that. Plus, Muslims claim the same thing, so who's the real God? You can win $1 million dollars if you can prove something supernatural as that: "At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event." http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

May 30, 2006
4:27 pm
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Tez,

I am only on page 54 (adobe reader) Here is my problem. I read along, and I am feeling like I have come home, you know, comfortable with the author's ideas, because I have felt this way for such a long time. Then he presents something that I don't know anything about, and I have to go google! and read that material. It is slowing me down.

I was thinking about a letter I wrote to my niece last year. I had her send it back to me, because I wanted to share it. I am pasting it over now, before I finish D'Adamo's book. I don't want you to think I am plagarising! It is long, and it might have a little different spin on the bible. It is not so scientific, It is more my disillusionment and realizations. I will paste it in a minute
Shayla

May 30, 2006
4:48 pm
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Tez, this is the old letter I wrote to my niece, when she told me she didn't want to go to church, because all they tried to do was make people feel bad about themselves, it is sort of long.

"Marina,
I wanted to tell you how I feel about going to church. I want to tell you no matter what anyone else says, you have the right to feel the way you do. I am the only one in your mama's family that feels this way, and I have found it is no use to argue with any of them.

I became disillusioned with church-going very early. When I was 12, Mom got a divorce and remarried, and Mom was treated real bad by the church people. So were Karla and I. Mom I could sorta see, but why us little kids? To this day, when I see any of those church people, they give me funny looks.

After the divorce, Mom moved us downtown, and one day, at the square, some Hare Krishna guys gave me a poster. It had commandments on it. I was 13, and thought how these commandments were kind of like our bible's 10. In college, we studied some different cultures, Confucionism, Buddhism, Hindu, and Muslim was touched on. Their "commandments." I thought of the Krishnas poster, and decided that each religion must be similar, with a male god, a male saviour, or prophet, and rules for good living. Which is what I see the 10 commandments as. Just common sense. You know, don't go around stealing, or doing your neighbors wife. You will end up in jail or dead, depending which county you are in.

After the divorce, Mom changed churches. The new one was in a very wealthy neighborhood, and we, the kids, weren't accepted, even in Sunday school. Snobs. We had to go, though. My best friend in high school was Melba, a black girl. Her parents encouraged her to earn her own extra money, make good grades, and go to church, stay out of trouble. She was a good friend to me. She invited me to her church (cool music), so I had to invite her to mine. When I saw my churchpeoples' mean, shocked stares, the reaction to her blackness, I wanted to grab her hand and run with her out of the church. We were little girls being stared at like that!!

I quit going, except on Father's Day, to make Grandpa Chuck happy. That is turning into a tradition, we do that for Daddy, now. I appreciate your going, when I know how much you do not want to go.

Even at age 10, I thought Eve got a bad rap. I mean cmon, The dude ate it too! I never saw him being held accountable, except that they both had to slap leaves on their genitals.

By the time I was 18, I thought I didn't believe in any god. I knew I didn't believe in that bible. There are too many inconsistencies. Then I went into the health field, studying anatomy, and after I saw a baby being born, I conceded that there might be some sort of a .......creator......maybe. Some grand master plan.

But that whole creation story, doesn't wash. Neither does virgin birth.
When I was 19, I was hanging out with people my age who already had kids, were on welfare, and generally loafing around. I worked, and went to school. A friend recommended reading a book called Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. This book really helped me see contradictions more clearly. I would recommend it to anyone.

I moved to Phoenix, and I worked with several girls that were raised in different denominations or faiths than I was. Jewish and Catholic. I had never had any exposure to non-protestants. These were nice girls, with different customs. Some of them knew why they did these things. some didn't. I heard for the first time about kosher food. Then on Ash Wednesday, the catholic hospital announced ashes were available. The catholic girls ran out to get them, and came back with smudges on their foreheads. What's up with the smudge, I ask? I was told it was Ash Wednesday, and that is what they always did. Why, I asked,
"To show we love god."

Well, this is unacceptable to me. I had to ask around, and none of the folks I asked could tell me. The closest I came to an answer was years later, when, accepting Daddy's challenge to read that bible all the way through, I read Job. He had lost everything, and poured ashes on his head and wore sackcloth, out of grief and penance. That made me think of the ashheads in Phoenix, so I read some more and found that Ash Wednesday before Lent and the wearing of ashes is to repent, either for sins you have committed, or those you might commit. Might?

The churches say we are born to original sin, and none of us are without sin? The little newborn babies? Sure.

The teachings taught us guilt, guilt for normal bodily functions and desires. Body shame. It taught us that sex was bad unless it was confined to marriage, to only be used for reproduction. Catholics are supposed to confess to impure thoughts.
Women are portrayed as bad, al-luring, Jezebel, the slutty queen, Delilah, who sapped samson's strength, emasculated him. Look at the story of Bathsheba, who was spotted by her king, called to him, impregnated by him, and when her husband returned from a war, was killed by David. She is portrayed as a seductress. It goes on and on.
I started reading "other" kinds of material. Books about cultures B.C. It started with novels, one in particular I liked was about Stonehenge, a novel, with the theory of what it was for. This theory had the women (healers, life-givers) living inside the stone circle, the men outside. Women had the ancient rites, and knowledge, and the men did the hunting, and were allowed to see the women for mating.
I read about goddesses, when god was a woman. This, to me, makes more sense, if we must have a creation story, it makes more sense for a female to be given the credit for the birth of civilization, although I think that a man IS needed too.
Now that brought me to the old Druid religions (pagan), which is more of a philosophy, that allows gods and goddesses. Wicca, believes in male and female deities. This makes sense, in terms of the earth, birth, death and regeneration.
I learned about Lilith. According to Jewish folklore, Lilith was Adam's first old lady. She was created equal to Adam, not some by-product of his rib, and from all that I can tell, she gave him alot of sass, when Adam told her to lie down to have sex, she refused and told him to get under her. They argued, and god had her fly away never to bother Adam again. She now represents evil and depravity.

Adam's chicks sure get a bad rap.

The whole thing about sex/guilt bothered me. As I read more, I began to see that matriarchal religions viewed sex as a gift, and life-affirming orgasms as an essential life force. I always thought it unfair that the animals got to just do it, not have to sneak, hide, or find an "appropriate" place to do it. Human sex is to be hidden, animal sex is not.

I started thinking about the different dietary laws for different religions. I thought about how unsanitary conditions could be, with no electricity, no refrigerators, no health codes. Since no freezing was available, there was no way to keep the meat from spoiling, I began to think this was why certain foods were forbidden, for certain groups of people. Geography.

During this time, for some reason, I started having dreams that came true in a short time. This had always happened to me, to a small degree, but they were coming more frequently. I had had some hypnosis, and did some past life regressions. It really opened me up to dreams.

When I moved back home, I fell in "love" with a man who moved in with me, quit his job, and beat me. After 4 years, I left him, and started therapy. I knew I needed to start healing. I had many well-meaning friends and relatives who gave me wisdoms such as - the reason my relationship did not work out was because it wasn't sanctioned by marriage - or god. And if I had dedicated my life to that god, none of that would have happened.
OR - nothing I ever did was going to be successful until I dedicated my life to that god. My favorite - just let it go, honey,, give it to god.
Right. I kept on with the therapy.

Out of self-defense, I think, I read that bible from start to finish. I read 3 different translations. I took notes, researched definitions, and talked to your Mama about possible meanings. She used to think that the UFOs were mentioned throughout that bible. (The nephalim). She and I talked long-distance every day, to discuss the "miracles", which she thought were evidence of UFOs! She was so cute, she called one day, freakin out about the burning bush, saying, "what's up with THAT?" Oh, she was all over Moses, saying his trip up Mt Sinai to get the second set of tablets gave him radiation burns, because that bible said his face was "horned" and he veiled his face after that. She thought they got Adam's rib from laser surgery, because it says he went into a deep sleep, the rib was removed, and Eve made from the rib, from the DNA form the bone marrow.
I read the Catholic books that had been chunked out of there in the 17th century. I read the Lost Books, and one of them was a book of Mary. She had visions, and got instruction from holy men before that god got her pregnant. Those men did not consider this pertinent!! a book about Jesus' mama!
Judith is a lost book of that original bible. She is this kick-butt warrior woman that lead troops into battle, and beheaded the enemyman.

Having done all the reading of all the books I could locate, I rejected the whole business again. I decided that Paul was probably gay, or so frightened of women and his own sexual urges so he projected his fear of women in all his "instructions" for right living, and the treatment of women, and their place in the church.

I "forgot" about it for a few years, then I heard of the Nag Hammadi Library. More missing writings! The whole Revelations thing, to not take away or add to the word of god, well holy moly, they had been sitting on these for how long?
I read the thories of the "borrowing" from currently poplular mythology, and applying them to the Jesus story, and I got angrier and angrier. Why did they feel the need to do this?

And that Mary Magdalene might not have merely been a camp follower/loose woman? That one pissed me off. That was always the implication. That she might have been Jesus wife, and there possibly was a child? Boy, that is really sweeping stuff under the rug!!

I got angry, then I got sad. Because I can't put any faith in any of that bible, or that religion. I grieved for my daddy, because, in my opinion, his life has been limited by his belief. His beliefs are rooted in fear, and superstition. And I can never never talk to my daddy about my spiritual journey. Do you know he could never tell me or Karla he was proud of us? Because of that glory to god thing, giving all the credit to god. No acknowledging hard work and personal achievement.

My mind boggled at the implications of all of this. The entire structure of Western Civilization was based on the absolute truth of the word of god, that bible. Countries invaded, conquered, people killed. Burning at the stake!! It controlled peoples way of thinking. My mind still boggles when I think of it.
The other thing that got to me when I realised that the entire philosophy and history that our Western Civilisation was based on was because of these writings and beliefs, and how very codependent the whole thing is.
First of all, you have that bozo, Adam, demanding dominance and superiority from jump street. They get rid of Lilith, she flies away to lose a hundred children a day.
Then when he gets the subserviant woman, Eve, who offers him half her food. He knew not to eat it, too, they were both told. Then when their god gets mad at the 2 of them, they are banished from the garden, their sexuality is shameful and she gets blamed for it for eternity.

We were born to original sin, that is hammered into our consciousness. (can't do nothin right)
Jesus died for our sins! We are reminded of that constantly, little children are reminded of that from day 1. Little kids feel needless guilt and get to see that horrifying bleeding cross image all their life.
We are told we are not perfect, born in original sin, and must strive ALL OUR LIVES to be worthy of that god, to achieve perfection we will never achieve.This loving god, the jealous god, the distant god, the vengeful god (vengeance is mine.

All talents and personal achievements must be attributed to that god.
Aside from that, there is the whole rewards in heaven thing. Not in this life, but afterward, in HEAVEN. Misery in this life, low self-esteem, (you can't be proud of yourself, pride is one of the seven deadlies)and if you strive to be GOOD, then maybe something good will happen after you die.

I think the whole thing sucks .The whole mentality of it reminds me of the way I lived when I lived with the abuser. Constant striving under vague rules, conflicting rules, to be good enough not to get hit( go to hell)

I tried to talk about it to my friends, but they were too indoctrinated, it was frightening to them.

BUT - this anger finally freed me, I find I no longer feel guilty for not going to some church. I no longer feel guilty that I have not dedicated my life to serving this god, or that I have sex when I am not married.

I stopped feeling unworthy.

What is it about us humans that need gods, rules and dogma? Not just Christianity, but religions created before that? The ancient religions required some sort of sacrifice? Dead animals? Now it is just personal sacrifice, financial sacrifice (tithe yo money!)

I don't think I can ever accept any religion, wholeheartedly, instead, I want only to achieve some peace. Contradictions mess with my head, and I can't accept them.
All I want is to have some calm, some fun, and keep a sense of humour. I am a decent person, I treat people with courtesy and respect, and I can sleep most nights. That is all a person can do.

I have said all this to you, sugar, so you know there is someone in this family that knows how you feel. It is perfectly fine to think for yourself, and you are not sinning if you carry out your own convictions. You don't have to go to anyone's church to be a good person.
I love you,

May 30, 2006
9:31 pm
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Seeker.

You said:

"BTW, you haven't addressed what I consider the fundamental flaw with D what's his name? Chapter 1 -- he assumes that revelational knowledge is the same as the written record of revelational knowledge. He also doesn't address individual's experiences with receiving revelational knowledge. What do you say about that?"

The reason that I didn't answer you is because IMHO, you seem to have so grossly misunderstood and misrepresented what D'Adamo said that I didn't even feel like responding to that question.

But seeing that you seem to want to push the issue, D'Adamo didn't assume anything of the kind. He didn't say that ALL revelational knowledge came (comes) from scriptures. He said that the knowledge contained in the scriptures came from a REVELATIONAL WAY of KNOWING. He said that KNOWLEDGE within the religious domain comes from and is based upon a revelational way of knowing.

Do you want an argument about set theory?

What appears to me to be your muddled thinking is, I suspect, why WD couldn't be bothered having further discourses with you.

I am sorry - I know no other way of putting this. You don't seem to grasp the full meaning of what people are saying in their writings.

I think you should give D'Adamo's book a wide birth and stick to your bible. You are not yet ready for it.

As for your understanding of what a mystic is ... Hmmmm! I say no more.

May 30, 2006
10:27 pm
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Tez,

I raised a valid point: all of the author's arguments against revelational knowledge are based upon the written record of it, and not upon it itself. To me, this isn't muddled thinking, but clear thinking. It could become corrupted in the process of and after being written down. I think you're just trying to dodge the issue.

I suspect I am extremely frustrating to you, because I can see through the author's attempts to discredit religion, and can engage you in honest debate about it, and you don't have any answer to what I say, because some of my words are inspired by God.

It seems that you are not ready to discuss these issues with me. Perhaps after a few more years with your Buddhist masters, you'll be worthy to be my pupil.

You can talk about your own opinions about me all you want, but who authorizes you to conjecture about WD's feelings toward me? Do you have a special connection with him that I don't know about? In other words, do you have revelational knowledge about him? :o)

I'm very flattered and humbled, nonetheless, that you deigned to speak to a poor wretched lowlife like me. I live just to hear words of praise or admonition from you. Without you I am nothing, oh great and mighty Tez! (You really ought to add rumbling thunder sound effects when you post me. It would really enhance the effect.)

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