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Science Without Bounds - the new religion?
October 16, 2006
1:19 pm
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bevdee
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Hey Tez, thanks for your response.

Ok Questionman!!

"If he did call you, saying: "Would you mind if I came over to your place later tonight? I need to talk about us", what do you think that you would say and do?"

I have already decided. I would ask him if his ex was gone and I would tell him I would meet him at his house. If he refused then I would know she is still there. Very simple.

"If you didn't meet your family's expectations of you and you point blank offered no excuse or explanation to either yourself or them whatsoever, then what would it be that you would fear happening?"

I have never felt I met my family's expectations!! I refused to conform to many of those expectations.

My answer and feelings about this are complicated. I am trying to get to the bottom line! I guess I am afraid my mom won't like me anymore. I was raised in this pattern of my mom expecting me to participate in this codependency with my sister. Even when I was a teenager, I would withdraw at times, and I was accused of not wanting to be a part of the family. My mom and I have recently started communicating in a healthier way, and I am afraid I will lose that. Especially if my sister moves in with her.

I know my daddy understands, because we have talked about it.

Also you mentioned your fear of death- I fear death, but not as much as I fear debilitation. A few months ago, I was having chest pain - it turned out to be caused by a hiatal hernia, which was aggravated by stress. My fear was not a heart attack and death, but a heart attack, stroke and living!! I want to go fast.

"I agree with you about a lot of boss sexual harrassment of female employees and rape being about power games. The interesting thing is that those who crave to feel powerful are those desiring to offset feelings of insecurity and thus fear in a milder form. "

Yes. Bullies in varying degrees. In my case this supervisor was intimidated by ANYONE who had more training than he did- and this was most everyone. Everything he did was to make himself look better - he was one of those credit takers.

"What is it that men fear about women that makes them want to have power over them and to control them sexually - i.e, sexually harrass them????? The answer runs deep - I think."

Are you asking for my opinion? My opinion is that the men who do this are threatened by the presence of women in the workplace. I suspect they are threatened by women anywhere. They are insecure from the git-go, and the fact that women are there doing a good job and kicking butt gets to them. The men that flaunt the guidelines and push the limits are still trying to prove that they are in a superior position. Possibly to themselves. If they get away with it, that reinforces that theory. My opinion.

Tez, I could not begin to presume to know anyone's mind- especially a man's. What do you think it is?

Bevdee-Answergirl- over and out!!

October 16, 2006
5:31 pm
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Bevdee.

Thanks for your good answers, Answergirl.

You said:

"The men that flaunt the guidelines and push the limits are still trying to prove that they are in a superior position. Possibly to themselves. If they get away with it, that reinforces that theory. My opinion.

Tez, I could not begin to presume to know anyone's mind- especially a man's. What do you think it is? "

About the last para, I think that unconsciously many of us do presume to know the minds of others. So much strife and conflict is caused by this mind reading presumptuousness. IMHO, the flame wars on this site erupt just because of presumptuous inferences taken based upon emotively misinterpreted words caused by self-injected intonations into the same words as they are being read by 'sensitive' readers(childhood stuff).

About my question to you, I don't know for sure either. But I suspect that many males unconsciously want to dominate women and to be in a position of power over them in order to ensure that sex is available to them 'on tap' as it were - not at the women's discretion but as a Caveman's 'club a woman and drag her into a cave for sex' syndrome.

I also suspect that many men, insecurely attached to their mothers as children, resent the power that their mothers exerted over them then. The desire to reverse the tables is strong in such men, I suspect. I wonder if any research has been done on this.

Sometimes when I am in a frivilous mood and want to stir Joy up, I will say: "Do you think women should have a say over which man goes to bed with them?" She used to hit the roof - now she says things like: "Oh ... ..., I don't know. Do you think a man should have a say over who he goes to bed with?" Sometimes I get a whack and roar laughing. We have a great relationship - most of the time. 🙂

A guy only has to think about how he would like his daughter treated to be thankful that mens' respect for women has taken a few steps up over the centuries - especially in the area of 'conjugal rights'. It wasn't so long ago, in my living memory, that rape within marriage was an impossibility. The woman had to submit to her husband if and when he desired her. Now we've got to earn it. 🙂 I'm not complaining - I do alright for myself. 🙂

I'm probably pushing buttons now in some women who read this. Phew! It is the truth of how it used to be - at least as I remember it.

Catch yah later.

October 17, 2006
12:35 pm
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Tez!

You said - "About my question to you, I don't know for sure either. But I suspect that many males unconsciously want to dominate women and to be in a position of power over them in order to ensure that sex is available to them 'on tap' as it were "

-in order to ensure that sex is available to them 'on tap' as it were? Well hell yeah, I'd like that too!! Who wouldn't like a little pony keg? or a great big keg?-in the house? Yeehaw! And I think it would be really cool if my pony could have a job, cook and clean too! And maybe sing or play guitar. And be a toe masseuse!

"I also suspect that many men, insecurely attached to their mothers as children, resent the power that their mothers exerted over them then. The desire to reverse the tables is strong in such men, I suspect." Men that resent their mothers. I don't know too many that don't. Or women. But I don't often hear about women sexually harassing men. I don't know if this is because it happens less frequently, or because a man won't report it.

I have to fight that childish resentment, in my dealings with my mother, and the way that resentment has influenced my perceptions. This makes me think of the term prejudice. I don't mean this in a racial sense, necessarily. How my prejuding might have kept me from experiencing things differently. No use looking back, though.

"A guy only has to think about how he would like his daughter treated to be thankful that mens' respect for women has taken a few steps up over the centuries - especially in the area of 'conjugal rights'. It wasn't so long ago, in my living memory, that rape within marriage was an impossibility. The woman had to submit to her husband if and when he desired her. Now we've got to earn it. 🙂 I'm not complaining - I do alright for myself. :-)"

It depends on which man you are talking about. 10 years ago I left a man who thought he had a right to violate me and we weren't even married.

And I imagine many women do have sex, even when they don't feel like it, either to avoid a confrontation, or in order not to hurt feelings. What do you mean by earn it?

"I'm probably pushing buttons now in some women who read this. Phew! It is the truth of how it used to be - at least as I remember it."

Yes it is how it used to be - I remember that too. Do you know the rule of thumb?

Bevdee

October 17, 2006
8:03 pm
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Bevdee!

You said:

"But I don't often hear about women sexually harassing men. I don't know if this is because it happens less frequently, or because a man won't report it."

Mostly IMHO women don't have the same insecurity and testostrone driven desire for power over women that sexually harrassing men do. But I suspect that it does happen more often that we think. It is just that guys probably don't take it as seriously as women do for many reasons of which you are probably well aware.

You asked:

"What do you mean by earn it?"

Weeeeelllll ... by doing all the things that we guys know you women like. I think that you know very well what I mean - flowers, doing things around the house without being asked, cuddles, caring, thoughtful, considerate behavior, dancing, feet masseuse, the list goes on.

"Do you know the rule of thumb?"

No, give it to me.

October 18, 2006
12:53 pm
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Tez

Rule of thumb - In England, it was legal for a man to beat his wife, but "with a stick no larger than his thumb". This carried over to the US. I think it was legal until the mid1900s..

Some men have big thumbs!

Now as for earning it - "Weeeeelllll ... by doing all the things that we guys know you women like. I think that you know very well what I mean - flowers, doing things around the house without being asked, cuddles, caring, thoughtful, considerate behavior, dancing, feet masseuse, the list goes on. "

Without being asked!!! EEEEK!!! Honey child, you have tripped on it!!! My opinion that a man who lives in a house must clean the house he dirties up. This hits my nerves- Sweeping floors he walks on, cleaning toilets he uses. Why do so many men think they do not have to clean? Why have to be asked? And who asks when a man is single?? His mother? If a man does it when he is single, why does a man "forget" , or do it as a "favor" once he is not single? Why have to be asked?

A friend of mine once pointed out that if a woman who works outside the home has a messy house, because of our gender stereotypic conditioning, folks think '" oh she is bad housekeeper" instead of "that poor thing, that man won't help her"!!

Remember I just said I wish my pony keg had a job, cooked cleaned, and was available on tap? Maybe women have to "train" them young. What is that Buddhist saying- wash yer bowl? And if considerate behaviour is all to earn it? Aaarrgggh.

Ok - enough ranting - I guess what gets me is ----- Why is this the status quo? My daddy didn't do housework. My stepdad did, because his first wife was depressed and suicidal, and spent most of her time in bed, so the responsibility of caring for their 3 children was placed with him. He cooked for them to nourish their bodies, he shopped for thier clothes, he provided a sanitary home for them by cleaning it, helped them with their homework, farmed his land, and worked an outside job. My mother said when they married, his absolute neatness bugged her. But she was amazed, when on Saturdays, he would get up and start housework, with or without her. He was so appreciative to have a partner that helped, and he was so appreciative of her cooking.

I have my mother who, following her mother's example, did all the housework, and worked a job. Until she married my stepdad, and then the housework was shared. This showed me that not all men have the same expectations.

But I will tell you something else - in other areas I am somewhat guilty of gender sterotyping. I am sure if I probed deeply, I would find more than just this -- but - I just hate a man to cry. I know that is just awful, but I do. And, although I know not all men know how to fix their cars, I still feel they should know.

I guess I will have to strive really hard at equality and fairness - in my way of thinking, because- we are who we are, due to conditioning and adhering to old belief systems.

whoo this pulpit!! - Bevdee

October 21, 2006
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Bevdee.

You said:

"Without being asked!!! EEEEK!!! Honey child, you have tripped on it!!! My opinion that a man who lives in a house must clean the house he dirties up. This hits my nerves- Sweeping floors he walks on, cleaning toilets he uses. Why do so many men think they do not have to clean? Why have to be asked? And who asks when a man is single?? His mother? If a man does it when he is single, why does a man "forget" , or do it as a "favor" once he is not single? Why have to be asked?"

Well ... if we are going to be consistent, then the woman should clean the grease traps, test the toilet septic tank for sludge levels in order to comply with local government regulations, change the engine, transmission and final drive oil and oil filters, grease the steering nipples, change the spark plugs, mow the lawn, maintain the home , internally and externally including the roof, guttering etc. In fact she should pay for half the home, the rates, utilities, the phone, etc. The armed forces should have equally as many women at the front as there are men - the list goes on.

I was educated early in the armed forces to clean up after myself. Raja Yoga reinforced doing one's own 'dirty work'. I lived alone in my own home for more than 12 years. I know very well and can do for myself in the toilet cleaning dept. Washing my own clothes, ironing them is second nature. Cheaning shower recesses using a vacuum cleaner etc is no probs.

However, Joy prefers to do these things herself. So I acquiesce in favor of doing the highly menial work that she cannot or will not do such as the weekly grease trap cleaning etc.

Besides, in my experience men when left to their own devices don't fill a home with dust collecting accumulations that generate a hell of a lot of work. When I examine the weekly washing, my clothes are by far in the minority in terms of quantity or difficulty level. I provided the washing machine out of my money as well as the home, land etc to boot.

How many men do you hear complaining about how little women do in meeting their needs? - only the reverse it seems to me!

October 22, 2006
1:23 am
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Tez,

How is it going? I am glad you are a tidy guy. If you would explain what steering nipples are? - I would let you come be my man, if you ever get tired of your present lady!!

I had to clean my house today, and it got me thinking about gender specific roles again. Sterotypes, and just--nature, I guess.

I hope one day I will be able to achieve ---- the ability to not define and judge human beings by their gender, color, sexual orientation, or religious preferences. Because I still do it. I have to overcome my mistrust of men. I don't trust some ethnic groups, and I don't trust bible-thumpers. Because I have been hurt by a few people out of each "perceived" group.

Many years ago in the 90s, the question of PC came up at work. A woman was talking about the newly coined "African American" replacing "Black", and the fact it was so similar to "Afro American." of the 60s. Also being debated was the term "People of Color" to replace "colored". People of Color, because not many American people of African heritage are literally black skinned and because the term colored has such negative connotations, because of segregation in the South.

I thought about this for a while. You know how I am - my endless pondering, and my blurting - Finally, I asked a lab tech, an African American/Person of Color which term he would prefer. He looked at me for a long time, then said, " How bout Sir?"

Yessir. A three-word answer and it couldn't have been more profound. Instead of worrying about PC, devisive labels and who is what - why don't all us humans just give each other the respect we expect for ourselves.

Another lady I know, of "mixed" heritage, half white, half black, writes in her race on government forms -- as human. That's the bottom line, isn't it?

As for our exchanges,Tez. I think we bumped each others nerves, maybe for the first time? Interesting. My hot spot reaction nudged your hot spot.

I do alot of things around the house that I pay all the bills on. Mow and manicure the lawn, cleaning gutters, Roto-root the sewer. Mess with the plumbing, whatever I know how to do, I will. Whatever needs to be done. I have my own power drill and chain saw. But if I can find someone physically stronger than me to lift a heavy box- I am not above batting my eyelashes to get that accomplished. My years in patient care have wrecked my back. I have always been like that, and I have always paid at least half of household expenses. In a partnership, especially with me not having children to raise, it doesn't seem equal (to me), not to share expenses, and I would not want someone to be able to hold that over my head.

"Besides, in my experience men when left to their own devices don't fill a home with dust collecting accumulations that generate a hell of a lot of work." True! That vase thing we were talking about? My knick-knack fetish? And - I have observed my men were scared of breaking them!

"When I examine the weekly washing, my clothes are by far in the minority in terms of quantity or difficulty level."

Well...........we have to wear more underthings!!

When you say "How many men do you hear complaining about how little women do in meeting their needs? - only the reverse it seems to me!" Do you mean women complaining about men? Men don't complain because their needs are met?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

But other than all that - how the heck are ya? Bevdee

Love ya-Bevdee

October 24, 2006
6:05 pm
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BevDee,

"But other than all that - how the heck are ya?"

I've been pretty busy of late, business wise, but thing have slowed down now. I even went dancing Monday afternoon to a special function. I can't normally afford to have time off during the week days. Of course Ms. Sneaky showed up as well. She publicly snubbed me. 🙂 Trying to get back at me I guess. I don't blame her - only she doesn't realize that it is what I prefer anyway.

How are things going with you?

October 25, 2006
3:30 pm
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Hey Tez, I'm glad to hear from you!!

I wouldn't worry about the Sneakysnubbing. My guess is that folks at those dances know how things are, know how she is.

Things are going ok. My new job is seeming easier, I have been with it for 5 months, and I'm getting comfortable with it. So far - no stupid Polo shirts, although our dispatch area was increased, so there is more driving each day, and longer hours on call. With the permission of the lead tech, I have a message on the bulletin board at the Dallas dispatch with my weekend call dates listed and all those dates have been snapped up. So I worked through or around that problem because I need the time right now for studying, I have a final coming up. I am almost finished with my second semester. With the death of my friend's mama, the move, my sissy, and then the niceman, it has been very difficult for me to discipine myself to study. My mind wanders.

My mother finally put her foot down and told my sister she was not to come live with her. It was a very difficult thing for Mom to do, and although she is sticking to her guns, despite my sister calling her every day, she worries incessantly. They (Sissy and creepyBoyfriend) are living in a motel, paid for by my sister's exhusband. I am still torn about this. When my mother made the offer to my sister, I was relieved that my sister would have someone to take care of her, and I was jealous - AGAIN. I worried about my mother's safety. Now that the deal is off, I am relieved for my mother, and worried about my sister, being homeless. I am relieved for myself, because I will be able to stay in my mom's home when I visit. My sister's daughters, 19 and 15, are drinking, shoplifting, and the older one tells us the younger one has been cutting herself. She told the older one to "Go ahead and tell Mom and Dad, nobody gives a F**K." Those poor little curly head babies!! They hurt and no one can make it better.

As for my personal life - there is not alot going on there. I have an old "friend" I used to date when I lived in another town, 93 miles from here. We have kept in touch since I moved, and he will actually drive the distance to see me. He is 9 years younger than I am, but what the heck, if he is willing to make that trip a couple of times a month....I liked getting together with him because he is nice to talk to (and look at), and there is no drama involved. It was never a love thang!!! It was just a thang. I saw him last weekend. He builds houses, and before he stepped out in the back yard to look around, I warned him to be careful, because there was no porch. He told me he would pour a couple of steps for me. Well - I can't (I should say have never!) poured Red-E-Mix, and I would like some steps. Is that trying to earn it? OR is that me using him? Do I think too much?

Last weekend I went to town, and while shopping, saw my cousin that fixed me up with the niceman. She told me that the ex wife is still there, but she is staying in the guest house. His is a big place, and there are several houses on his land. So she is still there. Sunday, he called and left a message on my cell phone last week to tell me that day was a year anniversary of our first date. I hadn't forgotten.

It made me very angry that he remembers that stuff!

Bevdee

October 25, 2006
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Bevdee.

It sounds to me like things are going pretty well for you at the moment. Though it is not without angst for both you and your mom, I think your mom has made the right decision not to let your sister move in with her. It's a tough but a wise decision that your mom had to make.

You said:

"Well - I can't (I should say have never!) poured Red-E-Mix, and I would like some steps. Is that trying to earn it? OR is that me using him? Do I think too much?"

I don't know.

IMHO, we all like to think that we are capable of loving unconditionally but I doubt that many, if any, of us do.

If we love conditionally then is that love not based upon reciprocity of any kind? How much 'nookie' would I get if I began flirting around with other women? Not much, I suspect. Would you get your back steps cemented, if you did not meet the majority of the expectations of your old "friend"? This is not to imply that our motives are always simple and easily defined. Often times they can be quite complex. But I doubt that they are ever completely self-less. If not then no matter how small, there is always a 'return' expected.

So if conditional love entails at least some unconscious bartering, then behavior that 'earns' favors is, IMHO, a legitimate part of exchanges involved in a 'conditional loving' relationship. Your "niceman" has blown it with you because of his behavior, has he not? I know that the above perspective is far from romantic. But as I see it, a spade is a spade, not either a bulldozer or a spoon.

October 27, 2006
1:43 pm
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Hey Tez-

Good to hear from you. As always I am thinking hard after reading your questions- on reciprocity.

Basically the old "friend", who I will call youngun because he is so young, was offering because he can do that kind of work easily. It kind of confused me though, because when we were lovers in the past,this kind of bartering never came into play. And I didn't ask for the porch - he offered. I guess it kind of surprised me, since before, with us, it was pretty straightforward.

I don't need a porch so bad I have to barter for it. I could probably do it myself. I know the reason I called the youngun was for reassurance. This sounds awful and selfish, but it felt great to know that he would drive all this way to see me. For whatever reason. I have felt so tired and unlovely lately.

You ask me - "Your "niceman" has blown it with you because of his behavior, has he not? I know that the above perspective is far from romantic."

He pretty much has but - I have been angry because - the niceman is still a nice man, and from what my cousin reported, they are not living in the same house. I had a call last night from that cousin. She knows everything that goes on in her entire county, she loves me and I think she feels somehow responsible -being the one that fixed us up. She told me that he has a new job in the metroplex, mon-fri. This means a 3 hour round trip and 10 hour days. She reported that he took an RV down there to sleep in during the week. I don't know what to think of that. He might have represented the situation with his ex honestly. I haven't seen him but once since the ex came back, and the few times he's called, I haven't answered.

I am not waiting.

Maybe I am. I am angry because the niceman is the kind of person that remembered a f**kin anniversary!! Of a first date. And I am angry that "meanwhile, back at the ranch" the situation is what it STILL is.

Maybe I am waiting and was trying to slap a bandaid on the hurt I feel by calling the youngun, who I know is attracted to me but never loved me, and never engaged in any drama with me. Safeboy.

Now for this!! My goodness, this is full of stuff to ponder, Tez!! - "If we love conditionally then is that love not based upon reciprocity of any kind?" ..........."This is not to imply that our motives are always simple and easily defined. Often times they can be quite complex. But I doubt that they are ever completely self-less. If not then no matter how small, there is always a 'return' expected."

I have thought this before, myself. I don't think unconditional love is possible. I don't love unconditionally, and maybe that is because I think- or overthink. I have expectations of reciprocity.

Besides, I don't believe I could give you a definition of love, let alone unconditional, because I'm not sure what that is.....anymore. Most of my old notions are being reconsidered - under my own scrutiny.

Tez, have you ever noticed how many of the threads here at AAC - similar conversations between different groups of posters run concurrently, across Libs and Support, touching on the same subjects? This makes me think of the saying - There is no original thought- even though we might say it differently.

Till later - Bevdee

October 27, 2006
10:17 pm
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BevDee.

Thanks for your response.

Girl, are we right off the thread topic or are we not? Who cares? Nobody I assume.

You said:

"I don't need a porch so bad I have to barter for it."

You may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn't suggesting that the 'bartering' process is always conscious, though it may at times be. IMHO the survival drives and motivations are bye and large unconscious and very subtle at times. If someone points a gun at your head then survival drives become very self-evident. However offering to construct back steps is not so obviously survival chances enhancing.

I once watched screaming women paying good money to be terrified half to death on a roller coaster. I churned over what underpinned such bizarre behavior. I realized that these women and some men were paying to mount a pseudo challenge to death, all the while believing that their chances for survival were ensured by the engineering know-how and the official approvals that went into constructing allowing the machinery to exist and run. Their terror was an automatic emotional response, fear of death - their elation, the realization that they had triumphed over the ever present obvious risk and beaten death.

On a lesser and more subtle scale, IMHO our drive to attain or obtain anything that makes our life 'easier' or 'pleasurable', such as back steps, motor cars, a new dress, etc, is IMHO underpinned by our survival drives in that it is based upon a perception of receiving a contribution to our welfare; that is, being neither neutral for nor detracting from our survival. Our welfare is that which sustains our life. Harm is that which detracts from the sustenance of that life.

It is the this continual presence of the drive to preserve the self that when frustrated of thwarted causes fear, anxiety and consequent dissatisfaction and/or downright suffering. Though he used different words, this is one of the core tenets of the Buddha's teachings.

Regarding your "niceman", he clearly understands your perspective on his present situation with his ex-wife doesn't he? If I were in his position prior to choosing what he has done, I would not have made that choice without first including you in every step of my reasoning processes. I would have ensured to my complete satisfaction that you understood every step in that decision making process and agreed with it unreservedly. Then in choosing to support my ex, I would have ensured your support of me in that decision. Since he seems to me to have done very little or none of the above, he has largely caused the rift in your relationship. If I had made that same mistake, in his position I would now write you an email or a snail mail letter asking for your help in opening up meaningful dialog with you as a prelude to seeking a mutually agreeable solution to the problem. Since he is at least as intelligent as I am and if he is genuinely not sleeping with his ex and he values you as a potential life long partner, this would have occurred to him too - I imagine. If on the other hand you were just a booty call and very pleasant company for him, he may not feel motivated to go the hard yards to put things right between you two. In such case you are better off knowing how you stand and acting as you have done. For what it is worth, that's my take on the issue.

Regarding Ms. Sneaky, the nuisance phone calls started earlier this week. I've had 7 so far. I'm convinced that it is her by virtue of the fact that as soon as I use her name she instantly hangs up. I saw her at a dance last night. She is very angry and sullen. Her fiancee, the poor bastard, is the meat in the sandwich. He doesn't know how to handle her and this whole problem that she has with my avoidance of any contact with her at all. I've racked my brains for a solution that might help her adjust to her situation that doesn't involve putting myself and my relationship with Joy in harm's way. I can't think of any - it's an impasse. Joy refuses to agree to us avoiding the dances that she attends. Joy's attitude is: "let 'Shit Head' suffer - it's her doing not ours. Why should we have to give up our preferred dance venues. Let her avoid us by her not attending the dances where we go!" Hmmm! I try to explain the template that I am for Ms. Sneaky but the explanation evokes little sympathy for Ms. Sneaky's self-inflicted suffering from Joy. Ms. Sneaky's phone calls only exacerbate her own anger and hurt not Joy's and mine. Because such phone calls would worry her, she seems to think they worry me. I find them nothing more than a nuisance. She's got a really 'niceman' somewhat like like your ex I presume. But she has no appreciation for having him whatsoever. He bends over backwards to please her to no avail. One day he will have had enough and leave her. Not realizing that I can only bring her pain, she seems to only want me - or at least my chasing her so she can inflict pain on me. Though she has my undeclared sympathy, she'll get neither me nor my chasing her. Her revenge will have to wait for another day - in another life perhaps.

Catch ya later ...

October 30, 2006
4:41 pm
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Yo Tez!!

Where you said - "Girl, are we right off the thread topic or are we not? Who cares? Nobody I assume."

I don't think anybody does, but if we started a new thread --what in the sam hill we gonna call it?

Bevdee

October 30, 2006
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Hi Tez

Where you say - "I once watched screaming women paying good money to be terrified half to death on a roller coaster. ......................... Their terror was an automatic emotional response, fear of death - their elation, the realization that they had triumphed over the ever present obvious risk and beaten death."

Back to this again, but I believe it is that adrenaline rush.(from the emotional response) I love scary movies, good suspense.

"On a lesser and more subtle scale, IMHO our drive to attain or obtain anything that makes our life 'easier' or 'pleasurable', such as back steps, motor cars, a new dress, etc, is IMHO underpinned by our survival drives in that it is based upon a perception of receiving a contribution to our welfare; that is, being neither neutral for nor detracting from our survival. Our welfare is that which sustains our life. Harm is that which detracts from the sustenance of that life."

Yes, and when you said new dress, motorcar, this made me think of the striving we do for "things", possessions. The reasons people strive for possessions. You know, I have been thinking about this - alot- since I moved and had to decide what was necessary. I decided that not too much of my clutter is necessary. What little I kept was for sentimentality, but I am in the process of examining that emotion.

Also, I got my Mustang paid off. It is 7 years old, and in very good shape. In buying this used car, I was lucky not to have ever had to pay out any money in major repairs. I could buy a new one, and I really really like looking at the new Mustangs. In considering buying one, I am asking myself why? I want a blue one, and I want a GT this time!! Why do I want to drive a newer, faster, prettier, shinier car when the one I have is fine? Since I have the company car for mobile, I never drive my poor Stang. I drive it to the store each Sat morning, just to make sure the battery is still charged. I got my insurance changed to "pleasure" vehicle rates. I don't need a new car.

Same goes for new clothes - fashionable clothes. After my friend's mama passed away, we went through her clothes, and I was given tons of clothes. Lovely, expensive clothes. I still want to shop! It is because the clothes are a little different style than I would select, as her mama was 20 years older than me. But- I will not need new clothes,shoes, or a car for a long long time.

I live pretty simply now, and I still sometimes wonder how my family "sees" me, since the way I live is much more scaled-down than their lifestyles...I believe this is part of the reason for the striving I see - in myself and in others. I catch myself doing it. Lusting after material things, and trying to keep up with other folks.

Now for this about the niceman - "In such case you are better off knowing how you stand and acting as you have done. For what it is worth, that's my take on the issue. " I believe I made the right decision. That doesn't mean I don't have regrets or doubts. I really miss our conversations. I miss watching him in roping competitions. I miss his body and I miss having sex with him. I miss seeing him smile, and hearing him laugh. But I can't recant now, and see him while she is living there.

At night, when I am trying to go to sleep, I wonder - would it have made a difference if the L-word had been spoken? But it never was. I guess that's why, mentally, I cut him some slack now. And I will not pull that rabbit out of my hat now, just to test him, and I don't think he would trust that (I wouldn't if it were me). And I have talked to you before about why I never did. I wasn't sure. I had too much leftover casinoman stuff running around in my head. I am still not sure.

The growing feeling I had for him was so......alien to the way I felt in any other relationship. Ahh...hell, I am having an idea form here... Because he was not a template trigger to me, I did not think I loved him. I did not project any expectations of him reciprocating that love - in any form. I did not place my needs in his hands.

When I am feeling low, and doubtful and tired and unlovely, I want to call him and beg - "please get rid of her, so you can come back and make me feel good again". I pull myself short from this or any variatioin of it. I want to be able to feel good without his affirmation. I have done fairly well at this in other areas of my life, but apparently, not in the "love" arena.

Enough about me- Now this Sneaky situation. It seems to me she has gone out of a stealth mode, and is just blatant, isn't she? How can she get away with these annoyance phone calls? I thought you mentioned you all had a tap on your phone. Did anything come of that? I myself could not be that obvious- uncaring if I got caught or possibly prosecuted.

Tez, I might be all the way past presumptuous here- but from your post, again I sense that you are not wanting to go to these dances. Do you want a break from it? Do you think her harassment would stop if you all quit going for a little bit? Or would it increase? Would it be easier for YOU emotionally?

Speaking for myself, and trying to put myself in your position (maybe a mistake?) I could not keep going back and exposing myself to the toxicity that seems to be present at these dance situations. It sounds like your lady gets angry when she sees Sneaky trying to get your attention? Doesn't it make you uncomfortable to be in the middle of all this friction?

Ok - enough about you- what title could we put on a thread between the two of us that would be fitting? You have to come up with the first suggestion.

Bevdee

October 31, 2006
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BevDee.

Thanks for your post.

In it you said:

"How can she get away with these annoyance phone calls? I thought you mentioned you all had a tap on your phone. Did anything come of that? I myself could not be that obvious- uncaring if I got caught or possibly prosecuted."

When I had reported a logged nuisance call from Ms. Sneaky our Telecom providing geniuses had lost her call 'somehow'. When the calls stopped after that, I canceled the monitoring service because of the costs. Ms. Sneaky worked for our Telecom Provider and thus knows all the tricks on how to avoid being caught. That is why she is soooo sneaky in avoiding being caught out. The calls have stopped coming again this week. They probably won't start again for a few months after I inadvertently trigger her off. Our Telecom provider requires the capture of three consecutive nuisance calls before they will do anything. I can easily put a blocker on her phone number, but I doubt that she would be so stupid as to use her own phone. I suspect that public phones are being used and then they are probably randomly selected all over the place. My consolation is that it is costing her money to make the calls plus it is only a minor irritation to me really. If it is the worst that she can do then let her do it, I reckon. Besides, I guess that I should be flattered.

And:

"I could not keep going back and exposing myself to the toxicity that seems to be present at these dance situations."

It is indeed difficult but time and repetition have made the experience a little less intense. I would much prefer to forgo the experience, permanently.

And:

"It sounds like your lady gets angry when she sees Sneaky trying to get your attention?"

It certainly does.

And:

"Doesn't it make you uncomfortable to be in the middle of all this friction?"

Yes. The alternative is to be much more uncomfortable in my relationship with Joy, were I to refuse to go with her to the dances where Ms. Sneaky goes. Joy reacts very angrily even to suggesting this alternative. I am dammed if I do and dammed if I don't. I have chosen the lesser of two evils - such is the nature of many of life's choices.

I live in the hope that Ms. Sneaky will just 'fade away' from my mind with time, the ultimate 'healer' of all wounds one way or another, and meditation practice. It is in my mind that the problem for me exists - no where else.

You drive a Ford Mustang? Wow!

November 1, 2006
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Tez
Glad to hear from you.

Yes, I drive a Stang, and I love it- way too much. It's a smooth ride, but I have had 3 speeding tickets and 2 warnings (eye-flirting was required those times to avoid a ticket) in the last 2 years. If I get one more ticket, my license will be suspended!! This will not do- I need that license for my driving job! So, getting a GT is out of the question, my car goes fast enough as it is. The car actually bucks when I pass 55mph!

Hey Tez? My heart goes out to you - that you are still going through the drama of those dances, and the dancing minds. I have sensed that it bothers you - alot. I see this because you mention the dances. Alot.

You tell me - "It is indeed difficult but time and repetition have made the experience a little less intense." Truly? Less intense?

If it's ok, I want to ask you something else. What would happen? What would life with your lady Joy be like if you did what YOU wanted, in regards to the dances, which I believe it makes you miserable most of the time.

I remember something the casinoman said to me once that blew me away, because it was so simple and so profound. A couple of years ago, we were talking about holidays. I had decided not to go to my hometown for xmas, and I was telling him of all the ambivalence I had toward my family. I was trying to explain my love, hurt, anger, guilt - I was trying to justify to myself not fulfilling family expectations. He looked at me and said, " They cain't do you that way if you ain't there."

I'm going to talk plain now and I hope this doesn't offend you - I will preface this by saying I don't know your lady. But I know women, and I know myself, and from what you have conveyed to me, I perceive Joy's obstinance about this situation to be - Not. Very. Nice. It seems inconsiderate of your feelings. Especially if, as you have said, she understands the template pull.

Sneaky is not going away - she has made that obvious, and from what you have described, she thrives on the drama. I am wondering if Joy has begun to thrive on it, as well? I wonder if the two women are liking pissing each other off? It also seems to me that you might be having to "pay" for your mistake. If this is correct, how long are you going to have to pay for what happened a long time ago? After you left Sneaky, Joy DID agree to be with you again, didn't she? There were conditions? That you would never see Sneaky again? (meaning I assume, never have sex with her again) Yet, it seems you are forced, by your attendance at these dances, to" watch" Sneaky every time you go.

I wonder at this - do you have any anger or resentment at Joy for her insistence that you to do something you would rather not? I would.

"I have chosen the lesser of two evils - such is the nature of many of life's choices."

Here is my take - my speculations--

Choice One - Go to the dances and be miserable, but make your lady "happy"- although she gets angry at the sight of Sneaky. Subject yourself to the anger of both women, the flirting of Sneaky. Subject yourself each time to the psychic toll it takes on you from not making eye contact and/or trying to block the desire this Sneakywoman evokes in you? (I imagine you are constantly aware of her presence)

Choice 2 - You stand your ground and don't go- but what will the consequences be-at home? More anger. nagging, pouting, no sex?

In regard to this entire situation, not just the event of each dance, but the dynamics of you, Joy, and Sneaky- do you feel that Joy is being truly honest with herself, or with you? About what the "dance" is symbolic of?

I really feel for you, Tez. I don't do those (( )) hugs, you know, but I guess I could pat your shoulder. I care about you. Since this is online, and there is no way I could ever meet you, that last statement seems surreal to me, but - there it is.

Your posts to me (and others) have shown kindness and caring. What started out to be a thread about SCIENCE and religions evolved into you and me sharing our thoughts and feelings with each other. It has gotten real personal. Your perspective, insight and wisdom have helped me delve more deeply into myself, and whether you know it or not, caused me be honest with myself.

And I like you and all your facets. I enjoy reading your posts on other threads. You and I are of like mind on so many subjects, especially religion, and victim mentality vs moving forward. I love the way you have of putting a different spin on things and I look forward to seeing you here. I would love to hear about this dancing dilemna working out for you.

I hope you all will be able to resolve this situation that causes you torment.

Bevdee

November 5, 2006
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Bevdee.

Thanks for your kind words.

You asked:

"If it's ok, I want to ask you something else. What would happen? What would life with your lady Joy be like if you did what YOU wanted, in regards to the dances, which I believe it makes you miserable most of the time."

I think that saying that seeing Ms. Sneaky makes me miserable "most of the time", is not really true. Had I not the tried and proven methods for dealing with my short term negative emotional eruptions, then under such circumstances my life would be misery. That you may have gained this impression is because of the narrow focus of our discussions. I have a lot of other things going on in my life that occupies my thoughts most of the time.

However, if I refused to attend dances my partner, Joy, would fret and feel deprived by my refusal. A large part of her network of friends is maintained through these dance attendances. I freely choose not to force that upon her.

You asked:

"After you left Sneaky, Joy DID agree to be with you again, didn't she? There were conditions? That you would never see Sneaky again? (meaning I assume, never have sex with her again) Yet, it seems you are forced, by your attendance at these dances, to" watch" Sneaky every time you go."

She needed to be reassured that I was completely finished with Ms. Sneaky and that I would not open channels of communications with her. Believing that ALL men are powerless over their sexual drives, Joy fears Ms. Sneaky's combination of her sexual powers over men's dicks and her complete lack of loyalty to her fellow females.

"I wonder at this - do you have any anger or resentment at Joy for her insistence that you to do something you would rather not?"

No - I have an in-depth understanding of the childhood emotional memories being recalled in Joy that underpinning her reactions to Ms. Sneaky. I empathize with what Joy feels as a result of being triggered off by Ms. Sneaky.

"In regard to this entire situation, not just the event of each dance, but the dynamics of you, Joy, and Sneaky- do you feel that Joy is being truly honest with herself, or with you? About what the "dance" is symbolic of?
"

Yes - within the constraints of her very limited ability to understand the in-depth nature of the interactions between Ms. Sneaky's, my and her own psyche.

"I would love to hear about this dancing dilemna working out for you."

It is working out slowly as time progresses. Ms. Sneaky is fighting a rear guard action now. She is slowly giving up. Time will see her complete capitulation, I believe. The symptoms of this capitulation will be her complete indifference to our presence.

My relationship with Joy is my life's extended learning experience. It involves learning patience with a partner whose way of seeing things vastly differs from my own. It involves learning how to 'give and take' in ways that can often involve 'costs'. In the end it involves learning that what I consider to be 'costs' are in fact life's valuable teaching strategies for furthering my own 'education'.

Catch you later, BevDee.

Tez

November 5, 2006
11:17 pm
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I didnt like my cereal this morning. Wait thats just a trigger of childhood emotional memories. Crap. Ouch, my bum hurts! Oh I know why's that too. Made a wrong turn at a traffic signal. Yep, its the childhood memories at work, the little buggers. Cost me $375 last year in traffic tickets.

Ok just having fun. Whatsup. I was so busy this weekend as usual.

November 8, 2006
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Tez- One More Long One-

I'm glad to hear from you again. I apologise for reading too much into the dance situation.

I am thinking about your statement-"That you may have gained this impression is because of the narrow focus of our discussions. I have a lot of other things going on in my life that occupies my thoughts most of the time."

When we started our discussions, I had so much unresolved (crap) running around in my head, I tried to distract myself by talking about religion, science, women's subjugation, gender roles and stereotypes, and possible alternate realities. This had always worked for me in the past, but I had reached a point I just couldn't ignore the thoughts coming to the surface and the statements I found myself making. In talking to you, I found I was not "different" or "flawed".

It really helped that you are male- I have always had trouble communicating with males. I was honest with, and bared myself to you, and you did not reject or ridicule me.

Soon, I will be able to observe my emotions in a new situation - the absence of the husband of my friend. Finally, every judicial avenue has been exhausted, and he is to turn himself in at the end of this week. I am conflicted about this - because I abhor the type of crime he tried to commit. I am glad he will be imprisoned for it. And I really just don't like him. But when I have to see him, and look at his eyes and hang-dog demeanor, I find myself feeling sorry for him, because he is so very ill. He is like a cunning child, but I don't believe it will be easy for him in prison. I don't expect him to live long there, simply because of the nature of his crimes. Conflicted I tell you. I try to conceal my feelings from either of them, and will probably continue to do so out of ---oh I don't know, an ingrained sense of good manners?

This was also a growing experience for me, because it was something I could not run away from. Running away has been my forte. It started me on this search? quest? for knowledge and healing. (I don't feel I am expressing myself well at all, here)

Tez, this narrow focus was so good for me- personally. For once, I concentrated on my self. I have gained such insights from my interaction with you, and from reading all the posts on this site. On this site, where I was living, and at my previous job, I found it was not necessary to respond to every trigger! I am no longer as motivated by my libido. I have started to trust my instincts again. A breakthrough for me. I am so much more accepting of myself and emotions that I previously feared and denied. I am treating myself better.

I'm human, I suffered childhood and adult trauma and survived, I am not as strange as I feared, I quit feeling sorry for myself, and it so helped to have you share yourself with me.

And through all the upheaval and emotional trauma of the last 4 months - I passed another semester in my courses!! I sure had my doubts. It seems I have strength and determination I had never tapped.

I start another semester week after next, so I may not be around as much. I believe I have made it through the "weeding out" phase of the program, and I anticipate the next semester to be very difficult. (I can't wait to get done with all this so I can start reading for pleasure again.)

Thank you so much, Tez

Bevdee

November 8, 2006
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Bevdee

"It really helped that you are male- I have always had trouble communicating with males. I was honest with, and bared myself to you, and you did not reject or ridicule me."

Years ago, I learned that our brains consist of two hemispheres, the left and the right, that are supposed to communicate with each other through the bridge called corpus callosum. It seems that both hemispheres 'see' reality very differently.

An ideal human being would IMO be someone who uses both hemispheres to their maximum, denying neither hemisphere's view as being stupid or unrealistic .

However, over time, western males for whatever reason have tended towards becoming left brained. Females on the other hand have, bye and large, tended to become predominantly right brained.

Since both hemispheres see things differently, miscommunication between western males and females is almost inevitable; thus the book, 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus', was written by John Gray.

The reason that I did not "reject or ridicule" you was simply that I understood where you were 'coming from'. Many men in your past, perhaps because of their conditioning, were perhaps not so fortunate. I think that in the past society, has unconsciously conditioned children of both genders to have their respective hemispheric bias. This is IMO indeed less than optimal.

Artistic and creative males tend to be more in touch with their femininity whereas technologically educated and employed women such as yourself tend to be more in touch with their masculinity. A harmonious balance between the two is ideal. (Jungian reconciliation between the Animus and Anima) The Hindi four armed God Vishnu represents the this ideal gender harmony within the one deity - a wonderful ideal for which to aspire.

My strong 'left-brained' bias is why I have written the above. My cultivated 'right-brained' incursions coupled with your 'left brained' attributes are why I am able to communicate so well with you.

In my experience western men have little time for their emotions, largely seeing them as a 'weakness' to be either controlled or ignored. I see emotional responses as nature's survival mechanism. However, nature is often aberrant. Childhood emotional conditioning, so functional then, often causes difficulties when unrecognized childhood emotions re-emerge in adulthood. Understanding this gives me insights into behavior that otherwise I would find totally inexplicable and repugnant.

We have an Australian TV show called Home And Away. It is written by women entirely for women. Joy is addicted to watching it. All the male parts in the show are scripted to behave as women would like to see men act. Women are the central focus and the script is almost totally devoted to emotionality and dysfunctional relationships. The show lacks total credibility and the story lines banal. For those reasons, I abhor it. Yet the show has very high numbers ratings and has been running for decades.

On the other hand shows written by males for males depict females as men would appear to like them to be. Such shows are usually about conquests, with a proliferation of Mr. Fixit men doing their 'clever' tricks, in order to win games of oneupmanship of one kind or another. Such shows also IMO lack credibility.

I like shows with some degree of balance between the two. I really enjoy movies like Good Will Hunting and A Beautiful Mind. While shows like the Gladiator, I find very forgettable.

November 8, 2006
6:26 pm
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Tez! This is a short one- I'll see if you git it-

"We have an Australian TV show called Home And Away. It is written by women entirely for women. Joy is addicted to watching it. All the male parts in the show are scripted to behave as women would like to see men act. Women are the central focus and the script is almost totally devoted to emotionality and dysfunctional relationships. The show lacks total credibility and the story lines banal.

This reminds me of the way I view porn movies - Except I think that those movies are geared toward the male viewer and how the male would like the woman to act-

A loose comparison?

Bevdee

November 9, 2006
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Bevdee

"A loose comparison?"

Yep - very loose. Even though it is an extreme example, it still does fit into the same category about which I was speaking; that is TV shows and movies that totally lack balance or any credibility whatsoever. I doubt that any rational thinking male with any worldly experience with women truly thinks that porn movies have even a shred of credibility.

The guys that watch porn are not the least interested in the credibility stakes IMO. They are tied up in their own little fantasy world.

Are women who watch mindless 'soapies' in the same category?

Git it?

November 9, 2006
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I git it!! Absolutely. And the ones that read those same-plot-every-book romance novels!!

Fantasy-

Bevdee

November 9, 2006
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Oh, I have news!! I got a good deal on a pc, so I am going to be able to finish my courses online! From home.

Later - Bevdee

November 12, 2006
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Tez

I have been thinking about what you said - Nov 8, about the male and female attributes. "However, over time, western males for whatever reason have tended towards becoming left brained. Females on the other hand have, bye and large, tended to become predominantly right brained. "

Why do you think this is? Do you have any theories?

Integrating these 2 hemispheres was never all that difficult, but integrating what I am with my conditioning has been difficult, and the inner conflict painful. I could regale you with my true stories of women who have decided to sacrifice for husbands and family - maybe later. Another thread.

I wrote this earlier. Now? Sunday evening, I have this last free night before I start my next semester. I worked a midnight shift last night, slept a few hours and as always, from the disrupted sleep, I feel like I've been put through the wringer. I decided to do nothing with my day except sit on the couch, be a hairball, and channel surf.

Of course, with 300 channels, there was nothing to watch!! But in surfing, I caught the last hour of the movie Sybil. I watched it years ago. The end of the movie showed the therapist helping her patient accept and "integrate" her disassociated personalities. This time watching the movie, I found myself sobbing at the scene where she is "hugging" the angry little abused personality,"Peggy" with the clenched fists.

This got me thinking about all the facets of my personality. I wonder how far removed we, or maybe I should say I, the traumatised, are from "Sybil" this extreme case? Maybe I just have a little bit better "defragmenting" capability? Just a little...

Later

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