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Science Without Bounds - the new religion?
July 28, 2006
1:57 am
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On the 27-Jul-06 you said:

"Dr. Nat talked about Death anxiety. You have'nt accepted the fact that you'll die, that we'll all die. You've run away from the fact, tried to sooth yourself by believing in conciousness to exist after death. It works for you."

Thanks for the unsolicited diagnosis given without any evidence whatsoever I might add; truly remarkable.

Of course on the other hand, your diagnosis is highly likely to be a classical example of Freudian projection.

July 28, 2006
4:38 am
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Seeker-i am sorry for the aggressive way i replied to u on this thread. For along time i thought seeking out a better way to live worked for me in church when i was a kid. then i realized it might have helped in some ways but it also hurt me in alot of ways to. The fact that you so much believe it betters you got my goat today. esp. when u popped up right in the middle of my tirade I took my aggression out on you because my trips through the church used to make me feel the same way as u seem to feel now. i think i miss the old feelings. It just doesn't work quite the same for me anymore. and i am somewhat jealous. Maybe when i can find a balance in my own way of thinking then i can return to church and my faith with a better and more balanced attitude. I have pretty much made passive remarks on aac for awhile now. i tend to make jokes to avoid being real. So all of a sudden i have went from passive to pretty aggressive. Hopefully assertive will pop up before long. untill then i might look like guppy has sprouted teeth. or maybe i went from being a guppy to a barricuda. Please dont take what i have said to you today personally. It is mostly my own irritable feelings within me that are showing through.

July 28, 2006
5:37 am
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Seek-i had a very good friend point out the error of my ways tonight. seems i am aggressing out everywhere. kinda got my attention when he asked me for the recipe for fish fry. 🙂 j/k
guppy

July 28, 2006
8:50 am
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>> I believe in him as strongly as ever, still. << Nope you dont.. its gone down slightly. Its going down, you're becoming sleepy now, very sleepy. Your eyes are closing. You're starting to lose belief in God. Zzzzz. You're getting more and more relaxed. All your belief in God is vanishing away. With each breath you take, you're becoming more and more relaxed. Breath deeply. As you slowly wake up, you no longer believe in God. You are free now. Open your eyes as I count to 3. 1 .... your belief in God is almost gone. 2 .... breath deeply. 3. You no longer believe in God. As your eyes open, you experience the freedom. yes. So whatsup. Its friday, about to go to work. Was feeling real bad in the morning, now better.

July 28, 2006
8:51 am
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That post was for Seeker, sorry. Everyone else doesnt get a post until I get some money from all of you. Its too much, I've been too flexible for all you slackers. I need to pay the rent alright.

lol sorry. hehe.

July 28, 2006
10:29 am
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no money...but there is a 300 lb pig on the Clumpy thread that is willing to share hotpockets with you... =)

guest this describes my relatonship with God:

http://www.creationsbydawn.net.....iseup.html

i love all of you...thank you for all of your different insights, and for always being there for me, even when you don't agree...
guppy, seek, guest, and Tez.

warm hugs,

omw

July 28, 2006
10:35 am
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Guppy,
I know exactly how you feel when you talk about attitudes toward women.

In reading your posts, I thought of a book I read a couple of years ago - The Dance of the Dissident Daughter, by Sue Monk Kidd. It was very good, she voiced the sentiments about women that you have expressed. She states that she is still a church-going christian.

Another one I read was When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone. I liked it for the author's presentation of the history of women, religion and misogyny. Goddess worshipping. It's quite different than the history I was presented with, in my life.

Also, have you ever read the books that the King James scholars chunked out of the bible? In those "Lost books of the Bible", there is a chapter - Mary, about Jesus' mother. Interesting. Apparently those male "scholars" did not feel that Mary's life and spirituality was "pertinent" to the story they were wanting to tell.

The thing that really gets me about all of this is - the attitude about women, is that that bible (whether you believe it's validity or not) has affected all of Western civilization, thus the attitudes (some still prevailing) about women. In my opinion, it is not because of divine word, but just because of some men editors, several centuries ago.

Bevdee

July 28, 2006
10:47 am
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Tez,

I'm so glad to be home!!

I'm back from my mother's. Everything went fine. Before I left, I made a list of positive things about my mother that I am grateful for. Things she showed me and taught me. Manners, social graces, all things female/feminine, a working woman's work ethic. For many years, I denied these things to myself, so of course I have never told her.

During the long drive there, I thought of all kinds of things. One of which are these "dinners" she puts on. ( I knew she would have a get-together) The preparation for these were always high stress and drama, more so when her daddy was alive. (We had to dress for dinner for him, no jeans) I believe it is a way she had of proving herself to her father. Now it is a tradition in her family. Of course, I felt like I ran around like a slave child, with her barking out orders - polish the silver, dust the baseboards. At Christmas and Thanksgiving, she made homemade cranberry sauce. Ever had that? Ever seen it done? It is a bitch to make. No one liked it but her daddy and her husband. Every February , she ordered corned beef from the butcher, so she could serve homemade corned beef and cabbage for her daddy on St Patrick's Day. ( his is the Irish side of her family)

After I got there we got papers signed and business taken care of. Then of course, that evening, there was one of her dinners. I helped her get everything together, like I always do. Maybe because of the insights I had on the drive there, this time I did not resent it. First of all, she does it to get her dwindling family together, and so I could see everyone and they could see me. I believe she did it to spare me having to stop to visit at 4 different homes. And because I would offer to help anyone whose home I was in, and not have all these negative emotions about it, I decided to feel about it the way I would in a friend or business acquaintance's home. Worked pretty good. I did not feel it took anything from me.

That's a funny thought. Why is it that I have done things for people all my life, yet resented doing those things for my family?

There wasn't alot of time to visit with her, because I had to get back. There wasn't much chance to talk while her family was there. My gramma, who has had a stroke, loves to be surrounded by her family, but doesn't say much any more. She can't remember recent events, and maybe from pride, she doesn't say much anymore, possibly for fear of embarassing herself. I am speculating. But she takes everything in. In the middle of the meal, she looked across the table at me and asked me if I was "in the menopuase yet"!!!!! ( she has lost some of her social inhibitions since the stroke) I said "yes, Ma'am I believe I am" She said," It's hell, aint it?" Again I said yes ma'am. I wonder what she "sees".

As we were cleaning up, Mom and I talked about my sister some. My sister's daughters. She filled me in on the stepsisters and brother, and all the things that were going on in their lives, and those of their children.

I didn't say much about what has been going on with me. I know that I can't share with her all the thoughts and realisations I had to bring me to the point I am at today. BECAUSE she will feel guilty. This is her hardwiring. And mothers just do. Feel guilty and responsible. In the past when she has felt guilty then defensive, she lashed out, and I responded. I do not want any more of our useless fighting.

I had typed up the "list" of things I remember her giving/teaching me. I gave it to her Thursday morning. She cried when she read it. She said - "finally you remember some positives". I did what you said, and hugged her. All she said was "I'm sorry" I told her "it's ok, I'm sorry for my part in it"

On the way home, I thought of something. I don't know if I will ask her this question yet, but maybe if I had made the overture before, I could have avoided some... pain. Ah, maybe it's a moot point? I am glad I put my hand out, and I am glad she took it.

There are still alot of things I need to deal with. When some thoughts surface, I touch, drop, and circle around them. I have been keeping a notepad with me to write down the thoughts as they come. Sometimes I let the thought go, and wait for it to come back.

And with the man? I am not going to force something I am not emotionally ready to do. But next time we are gettin busy, and he looks in my eyes, I am going to ....
look back at him.

Bevdee

July 28, 2006
10:49 am
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guest,

You're funny. But I've practiced self-hypnosis before and know how to resist it. Good try, though. :o)

Let's see, I could give up religion, be "free" as you say, and likely have as many depressing days as you seem to have. Thanks, but no thanks.

July 28, 2006
10:52 am
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(((guppy))),

I appreciate what you said just now. I didn't realize you envy the faith I have, and are jealous of it and would like to have it back. I have no doubt you'll find that faith again.

Hope we can always keep talking, my friend.

July 28, 2006
11:20 am
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Hey Tez

7- 26-06 you asked "Is it that you fear giving and receiving love in situations where you perceive that there is a possibility of being hurt emotionally?" YES, but...

I am having to ask myself if, in the past, did I subconsciously pick someone ( a template match) that was inappropriate? Someone that I knew, deep down, would not /could not love me? I tended to pick men that were emotionally "unavailable" . SO I was always able to keep a distance emotionally, ALSO? and NOT love that person the way I should. Holding back a part of myself?

Then I felt victimised and sat on the stair and cried, because I did not "get" the love I deserved?

I blamed everyone and everything for not loving me, when I could not love myself

I think I have to take some responsibility here.

Did you ever see the movie "Benny and Joon"? With Johnny Depp? If you didn't, I'll try to summarise it.. Adult siblings, brother takes care of his mentally ill sister. He is overprotective of her, and toward the end of the movie she says to him," YOU NEED ME TO BE SICK"

I mean it has been the same pattern since I started dating, and I do not think that each of them were random occurences, like pieces of aircraft shuttle falling from the sky.

Maybe I perceive(d) any kind of love as potentially painful. Ever. Thus, my history.

You paraphrased me, saying, ""I'm fearful of letting go of control of my feelings towards a man who likes or loves me. If I do then that man might then take control of me, want to possess me, and imprison me. With such a man, if I let go I might lose my very self completely.""

I don't think so, because I have gotten pretty good at spotting the stalker kind of man, the physical/emotional/ambient abuser, the narcissist, or manipulator. That kind of man sends up red flags and warning sirens. I have some pretty good radar about those kinds. I see all these in my roommate's husband, so I get triggered every day. It's been good "practice" There couldn't have been a better demo than watching this guy.

It is because the man I see seems pretty well adjusted. And, even though I wanted different, I am finding it just ALIEN!!! I have no Pavlovian responses!!!! I feel as if I am teetering on the brink of changing a pattern, and Tez, all philosophising aside, change is scary. Freefalling.

I say that I don't think I am emotionally strong enough to take the chance of my heart and mind being rejected. Or am I just telling myself that?

My roommate is in the middle of unbelievable turmoil right now. I cannot imagine having the things she has on her mind -on mine. It makes my pain seem trivial in comparison. My instinct is to give her advice. I have always done this in the past with other people. I don't. (Since, some days I don't even have any advice to give myself, it seems ludicrous to assume I could advise someone else). No one was ever able to tell me anything, anyway. The advice I give to others is usually the advice I should be taking, myself. She can't see what I see as a solution to end some of the source of her pain.

I am trying to love her the way I want to be loved. With compassion, patience, without judgement of her pain, emotional processes, actions. I listen to her. I hold her when she cries, and I cheer her up with my silliness when I can. It tears me up not to say "what can I do to help?" (This is a new approach with me, because my friendships with females have been co-dependent, too.) All I can tell her is "You know I got your back)

(I also think most of the females I have felt the strongest bond of friendship with are template matches. I will think more on this later.)

Tez, I have never thought you were judging me. If you can't tell this about me by now, I will tell you. These days, if I suspect any judging, I go away. Fade away. I won't justify my thoughts or belief. I am trying to get the expression "I'm sorry" out of my vocabulary. It is too self-effacing.

I really like you, man. I love your insights. I love your forthrightness. (You shore y'aint from Texas, boy? cause you shore do cut t'the chase.)

Thanks for your post.

Bevdee

July 28, 2006
11:20 am
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seeker, oh come on, there's happy athiests and unhappy believers, you know that. There's no corelation there and you know that. Hey how about Tez, he doesnt believe in God and he seems happier than me, or less depressive right. bah.

July 28, 2006
2:03 pm
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Bevdee-U and i think alot alike. I was just telling a very good friend of mine the very same things u wrote about how religion subjugates women. I have read the lost books of the bible and researched how the King James Version came out too. The reallity of it is, religion promotes power to the men as a whole and takes it away from women. It is a fact, plain and simple. Most people, esp men, dont want to hear it. Thank u for posting to me.

Sincerely;
Guppy

July 28, 2006
2:23 pm
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Seeker-no, u misunderstand me. i envy you the fact u still look at religion with rose colored glasses. i see it with a big dose of reality. There is a difference. I feel like u still see all the good in it, without addressing the bad. I , on the other hand, am livid sometimes over the bad. I was telling a friend all this the other night and he still continued to try and fix or offer me advice how to fix each point i brought up. The whole point of the whole story i was telling is this; Men typically think they are better than women. They dominate. They use religion to promote this idea. Abuse happens. Men overlook it in the church. because it doesn't affect them. (not all men, but it is a prevalent attitude) and it happens everyday. This is just the way it is. When a man dares to make the mistake of telling me ; God allows it. i am livid and sad. Men allow it Seeker. ((((Seeker))))

July 28, 2006
5:20 pm
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guppy, yes you do have a good point. again though the fault falls with the human nature and not God. it is all about misinterpreting scripture to fit what makes one life easier sometimes.

i will never forget when my ex husband and i were talking about submission in the bible. i am the wife who had the word "obedience" removed from my wedding vows, as at that time there was no way! anyway, he told me to "SIT!" like a dog, in his discussion about submissiveness to me...and if you know me...THAT did not fly past at all...i told him what he could do with his definitions.

we laugh about it now, because neither of us knew what it meant at the time.

July 28, 2006
6:34 pm
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Miss Guppy,

You are welcome. I really recommend that book by Kidd. Essentially, she came to terms with her femininity, and the power it has, but was able to keep her faith in her christianity.

I took this to mean she did not accept or react to the attitude of women't inferiority that is all through that bible, and pervades our society.

You are from Georgia? I live in the South, too. I have lived north of the Mason-Dixon line, and I think that attitudes down here are a little behind those of "up there". But, I have to stop now, because if I get on a roll about this, I will never stop. (Men do hold doors for women here, though.)

I hope you have a peaceful weekend.

Bevdee

July 28, 2006
8:54 pm
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guppy,

I suppose I have rose-colored glasses toward religion because I think of what I can do with religion, not what other men have done with it. I can use it to help myself be a godly man in spite of the fact that many men use it to justify their sins. Regreattably I don't always succeed in being very godly.

Here's a passage of scripture that I reflect on from time to time. It's from a book of Mormon scriptures:

"No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of [a man holding] the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned"

The only way for a man to be worthy of having any influence with a woman is by loving and honoring her more than he loves and honors himself. I try to live by this, but don't always succeed.

I don't know what to say when you talk of how men often abuse the power they have over women. It's true; I will not deny it. But I don't know what to do about it because I cannot control them. I can admonish them when I'm aware of a specific situation, but other than that, I can only control myself.

(((guppy)))

July 28, 2006
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omw,

LOL at the irony of your ex telling you to "SIT" in a discussion about obedience. That is not the sort of obedience I feel the Lord has in mind.

When a good man works with a woman, I think it is in her nature to obey, as long as she feels he has her best interests at heart. I think churches should focus on men treating their wives and children as they should, and submission and obedience will naturally follow as this happens.

Seek

July 28, 2006
9:08 pm
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Seeker-i know u didn't just say what I think u did......aaaaaauuuuuuuugggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

July 28, 2006
9:13 pm
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bevdee

Thanks again for the nice compliments.

Your post of 28-Jul-06 again demonstrates that you have a remarkable insight into your own psyche.

You wrote:

"I feel as if I am teetering on the brink of changing a pattern, and Tez, all philosophising aside, change is scary. Freefalling."

It sure is scary. From when we are born, and perhaps before, we develop a 'world view' that appears to serve us well. Yet for some of us, all the time our 'world view' is sabotaging us. When we who are like this, realize it we sometimes also realise that we have nothing else to take its place. That sure is "free falling" - desperately wanting to trust that there will be a soft landing with a consequent more functional 'world view'.

I've hit such a large 'Turning Point'in my life with many smaller ones following. I seem to get onto a plateau, stagnate and then hit another turning point. I've realized that the world I see is coming from within me. I largely create the world in which I live and then I tend to blame others for my misfortune. Yet dispite this knowledge I tend to repeat the same process of creating a situation wherein problems arise and then resenting the intrusion of the problems into my life. Relationships are just one such problematic area wherein template matching causes huge problems for me. For me, 'template matches' feel so right yet cause me so much emotional pain and upheaval.

You said:

"No one was ever able to tell me anything, anyway."

I don't think that you are alone there. I think that we all tend to learn most directly from our own experiences. Problems seem to come when we determine the 'cause' of that experience to be. Sometimes I'm spot on but often I'm not. The matrix of cause, effects and conditions is often quite complex.

You also said:

"(I also think most of the females I have felt the strongest bond of friendship with are template matches. I will think more on this later.)"

Very interesting. This might be a very good 'signpost' for you to follow later.

And:

"(You shore y'aint from Texas, boy? cause you shore do cut t'the chase.)"

I y'aint even from God's own country. I'm a dinkum Aussie - born, bred and living in Oz. The nick 'Tez' is often mistakenly written by some here as 'Tex'. But I ain't no cowboy. The only steed that I ride has two wheels and an 1100 cc V-twin engine. I was nicknamed Tez by my colleagues in my previous job as a shortening of my already shortened name 'Terry'. So I stayed with it when I came here some years back.

You wrote:

"I am having to ask myself if, in the past, did I subconsciously pick someone ( a template match) that was inappropriate? Someone that I knew, deep down, would not /could not love me? I tended to pick men that were emotionally "unavailable" . SO I was always able to keep a distance emotionally, ALSO? and NOT love that person the way I should. Holding back a part of myself?"

As a thumbprint only, my perfect template match is a short, slightly dumpy blonde woman with a pert nose and pretty face, small boobs, who is vindictive as hell, very deceitful, full of denial, totally unaware or her own failings, false, very conditionally loving, highly manipulative and able to feign the poor little helpless me act very well.

I think that my aim in such a relationship is to seek and re-experience the ecstatic emotions that I felt as a small infant after reunification with my mother post severe abandonments. Mixed in with that urge is an unconscious desire to punish mom for the many rejections that I received from her - real and imagined.

All of the above absolutely ensure one hell of a painfilled relationship. Yet it is with such a woman that sex is so fantastic for me - dispite very self-centred sexual preferences with such women. It proves for me that great sex originates from within one's own head not from externalities.

Can you describe your own perfect template match? Can you describe the characteristics of the type of guy who makes you 'wet', weak, your vision go out of focus, just by holding your hand and making strong eye contact? The type of guy with whom, after you've bonded, you feel that you 'can't live without'?

July 29, 2006
12:36 am
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Tez-normally i am on even ground with my feelings but this thread has caused me to totally be mad for a week now. ( i know, my choice) I grew up in an alcoholic home that demanded submission and obedience that was totally unjustified. i married an alcoholic that demanded the same things without handing back any respect in kind. both entered church with me at one time or another and used it against me to demand their way. because of this i totally bow up at any man that would dare to use the words submission and obedience in the same reference with religion. i dont think i will ever be able to hear those words out of a males mouth again. not if it implys to me. i think i am healthier for it. the most a man could ever hope from me is my respect as an equal. How do u get over the yearning to be able to physically hurt any man that puts those words together against a woman. This has become such a volatile subject to me this week i honestly dont know if i will ever step back in a church. I just dont feel the same way about religion anymore. Tell me, how do i rise above it. ................

July 29, 2006
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guppy,

The submission and obedience that your father demanded of you was totally unjustified. I hate that he did that to you. He was a wicked man. He had no right to demand that of you.

I believe that had he been a godly man, he would have treated you as a father should treat his daughter, and been a support to you instead of vice versa, and you would have naturally given him obedience and submission, because he would have had your best interests at heart and was meeting your needs.

Everything I've said about "dominance" relating to men and church assumes they are godly men, men who have women's best interests at heart and sacrifice for them. I believe this is the way God meant for the church to be. What I've said does NOT apply to the type of swine your father was and is.

I am with you on these points. But I don't know how to make you see that we are on the same page.

July 29, 2006
7:47 pm
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guppy

On the 29-Jul-06 you said:

"Tez-normally i am on even ground with my feelings but this thread has caused me to totally be mad for a week now."

Maybe my posts are probing too deeply into 'open wounds', as it were - a bit too much. It might be a good time to take a break from all this intense stuff.

I know how that madness feels. It's awful. Sometimes I get the craving to hop on by motorcycle and hit the high road and to keep riding into the sunset. Of course I know that wherever I go I take myself with me.

In stark contrast to motor cycle riding, I am a social ballroom dancer. I go dancing three or more times a week. After years of this, one gets to know a lot of people - just like one big family. I have a ex who is also in the circuit. She was one of the two people in my life with whom I have had a very toxic relationship. I see her just about every other week somewhere on the dance scene. Because I have rejected her, she is constantly trying to make contact with me. But I keep her at arms length - always incommunicado. This woman is both beautiful and an accomplished seductress. She is also all the things that I described above in my description of my perfect template match. She never takes her eyes off me. She was ringing me all the time without speaking until I put a stop to it. She even manipulated her current fiancee into fronting me and asking me to be on speaking terms with her. The fiancee is a 'Johnny come lately' who knows nothing of her exploits seducing men. I was in a bind. So I told the truth in a way that didn't denigrate anyone. I said that I still had some feelings for this woman, his fiancee, and I didn't want these feelings erupting disturbing my feelings for my partner Joy in my present relationship. In addition I told him that my present relationship would not survive if my present partner, Joy, saw me talking to his fiancee. He replied that it was a standoff. I agreed. Ever since he has been great. He never misses a chance to have a laugh and a joke with me. The ex continues her little game trying to get me alone in order to work her charms. I am a strong template match for her without a doubt - much more than she matches mine. I would very much like to avoid any dance where she goes. But my partner, Joy refuses to go along with that solution and insists that this woman, my ex, 'gets the message' with a sledge-hammer, figuratively speaking.

The whole business, though very painful at times, has been very good for me. I often awake at 4 o'clock in the morning with great insights into my own psyche.

I like what young Willie Shakespeare said:

"Precious are the uses of adversity, like a toad, ugly and venemous, yet bears a precious jewel in its head."

July 29, 2006
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Guppy.

Sorry about that post to you. Some how I inexplicably got you confused with BevDee. Hmmmm!! I must have too much going on in my head.

Now that I've got things straight again, you also said:

"because of this i totally bow up at any man that would dare to use the words submission and obedience in the same reference with religion. i dont think i will ever be able to hear those words out of a males mouth again. not if it implys to me. i think i am healthier for it. the most a man could ever hope from me is my respect as an equal. How do u get over the yearning to be able to physically hurt any man that puts those words together against a woman. This has become such a volatile subject to me this week i honestly dont know if i will ever step back in a church. I just dont feel the same way about religion anymore. Tell me, how do i rise above it. ................"

Wow! Being a guy I have a strong desire to fix things rather than to emphasize with you. I cannot tell you how you can rise above it. I can tell you how I have done so to a certain extent.

Here's the negative side:

Over the years I have found it very hard to rise above my hatred and resentment towards Christianity. I often revert back to perceiving Christians who with missionary zeal propagate their beliefs, as being perpetrators of thec brainwashing the young impressionable minds of children, causing much pain. I see children as innocent victims of a deluded and distorted message.

Here's the positive side:

I now discriminate between Christianity as commonly spruiked today and Christ's actual teachings; only a smidgen of which is to be found in the Bible.

I have for many years realised that much of my hatred and resentments towards authority in general and towards religious authorities in particular has originated in my resentments towards my father. Like you I had a very bad childhood.

I now see that if I perceive myself to be a victim of my parents behavior towards me as a child, I must out of all fairness, see them as victims of my grandparents. Likewise my grandparents would then have to be seen as victims of my greatgrand parents who were victims of .... all the way back to the beginning. Adam and Eve???? Whether or not you believe that Adam and Eve existed or that Genesis is historically true it doesn't much matter. There must have been some 'original' human who was the start of the rot!

At that point I simply asked myself this question:

Is it logical to believe that some God who is all loving, all knowing and all powerful would start the ball rolling with a stuffed up human being who would visit the 'sins of the father' upon all generations right down to you and me? Would such a God create a fucked up world like this? My answer was a resounding NO! The concept of a masochistic or sadistic God required to create this world is also incompatible with the Godly characteristics of being all loving, all knowing, and all powerful.

From my perspective, this leaves me with the following choices of either:

1. There is no God and everything is an explicable result of random chance. Somehow where nothing existed previously, neither space nor time, from a 'singularity' of infinitely compressed energy came a big bang wherein energy in a pattern dictated by the laws of Quantum physics that came from nowhere, was converted into subatomic particles, atoms, molecules and matter as we perceive it. You and I are accidents of that bidirectional flow of energy to both higher and lower levels of complexity that comes from nowhere, is going nowhere under the guidance of strict physical laws that came from nowhere and lead nowhere.

2. Or there is some intelligence governing that from which everything emanates;that is, energy. This intelligence is underpinning the patterns to which energy conforms in creating matter. We ourselves are sophistocated patterns of energy, whirling and gyrating at a microscopic level, and seeming to possess self-hood at a macroscopic level. However this supreme all encompassing intelligence is not an entity, not a Person, has no human characteristics whatsoever, nor any sense organs, etc. This Supreme Intelligence is not a Super Brain, a Super Self, nor can it think except through its Supreme Awareness as experienced through all its creation; that is, us and others like us who are that Super Intelligence in the act of being aware, albeit on a very limited scale, of what it is like being human or other life form. This intelligence is pure consciousness without any limits such as a sense of a Self separate from Other. Since such concepts are extremely difficult to grasp with our limited intellects, such masters as the Buddha, apart from denying the existence of a God of the normal understanding of the word, advised against wasted effort in such vain speculations.

I chose option 2 as being the most likely scenario underpinning my reality.

That being the case, it is my current belief (that may well change)that the world in which we find ourselves is a direct result of our own ignorance, mine included. We hurt each other and ourselves out of ignorance of our own true nature.

There isn't a wise God who is allowing all this to happen for some good reason, IMHO. At best we are some supreme intelligence manifest in a pattern, a form. As great mystics actually 'see inner visions' using their 'Third Eye of Knowledge, Wisdom and Compassion', they become blissful realizing that there is no self and no other, no one, no self to win or lose and nothing that can be gained or lost; there just 'is' everchanging 'isness' underpinned by that which 'Is'.

In such a mental state, the emotions thus settle, and peace and serenity abides within.

Maintaining that state of mind and not being sucked back into old mental paradigms of ignorant game playing based upon enhancing the false sense of self that is still alive and well, is the big challenge for me. I most often fail. But those failures doesn't invalidate my challenge, my aim or my objective - IMHO, that is.

July 29, 2006
9:47 pm
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Both posts hold information i can use Tez. Thank you. I had thought the old wounds had healed long ago where my dad was concerned. seems they weren't . i am going to take a break from this thread for awhile and let the old hurts and anger go, as best as i can anyway.
Guppy

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