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Science Without Bounds - the new religion?
July 27, 2006
9:27 pm
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Seek; alright-hows this- guest, my athiest friend. how i have missed u. where are u my brother in poking a stick at religion lately? hmmmmm? want a go another round on here?

am i acknowleging or instigating?

It was never MY CHURCH SEEKER. i have been in chatholic, methodist, church of god, church of christ, baptist, MY NAME IS NOT ON THE DEED OF ANY OF THEM!!!!!!!!

July 27, 2006
9:43 pm
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guppy,

Again, I did not mean it that way, as I've already said. I acknowledged that previously. I feel you're bringing up a point I've already answered. If you don't think I have, please let me know.

I feel everybody is my brother or sister, regardless of their religious affiliation or any other factor. Tez, you, omw, WD, guest, and everybody else is my brother/sister in a spiritual sense.

Why are you standing up for guest now? He chastises anybody who stands up for anybody else on this site. I don't think he'd want you to stand up for him. As he's indicated before, he can stand up for himself.

It makes it look like you're teaming up with guest now, and remember how you felt when you thought I was teaming up with omw?

And for the record, omw and I do not quite see eye to eye as far as religious belief goes. I called her sister in spite of this, even though she believes differently from me.

July 27, 2006
9:45 pm
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I'm just feeling crappy :((. MAN. This sucks. Feelings real low and missing that girl, the addiction. Time will make it better. I'm not going to contact her ofcourse. Trying to think about other girls. Gosh this hot cutie came into my office with her friend today. I dont mind big women, as long as they project self-confidence, gosh she was heart shaped umm. Oops ok.

Just a bad day today. Actually I'm really worried about my career. I'm not doing enough for myself, I dont know why I cant get myself to start my engine. Anyway.

Ok seeker, the terms sister and brother in Christ and other religions were made to show a special bond only for those followers, even if you deny it its true. Anyway its ok, I dont know what else to say.

Feeling bad anyway. My life is good but I dont know where its going. Atleast I'm getting some work done in the office.

guppy, no i'm done I guess, nothing more left to say.

July 27, 2006
9:50 pm
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Tez-thank you for your response. I have always thought that part of history of Christ has been muddled and or changed. The original purpose, teachings, and philosophy has been altered by men in power over the years. I dont know for sure either, but like u , i suspect this because i understand how power and the struggle for power among mankind works.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

History by definition - is the biased memory of the man or men who were in power at the time the words were recorded and wanted it that way. It is always going to be somewhat slanted. or parts of it total lies. imho.

i believe in God and i believe in christ. but my understanding is never so narrow minded that i can't percieve that i probably dont know or understand the whole story. I always try to hold what i know for truth loosley. not in a narrow fist of ignorance. when it gets to the point that i cannot listen to someone else's point of view or what they percieve as truth then i might as well just be a brainless rock , so much importance would i place on my narrow minded view of truth. To me, that is the ultimate self insult .

July 27, 2006
10:00 pm
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Guest-i wasn't really asking u to go another round with me. i was mirroring the team tag the other way around. i was mocking it. I have been writing how i feel on this thread. how i think. There was never any WE in it.

July 27, 2006
10:09 pm
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Seeker-in no way have i been defending Guest. i am not teamed up with guest. U still are not listening.........

July 27, 2006
10:09 pm
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thanks thats ok hmm.

ah. Got real anxiety. Gonna go and watch TV maybe and try to feel better.

July 27, 2006
10:14 pm
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guest,

{Ok seeker, the terms sister and brother in Christ and other religions were made to show a special bond only for those followers, even if you deny it its true. }

I never heard that. That's not the way I meant it anyway, and I think you know it. Stop assigning motives to me that I don't have.

BTW, you are indeed my spiritual brother, but I don't know if you see it that way.

July 27, 2006
10:28 pm
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guppy

On the 26-Jul-06 you wrote:

"Tez- i would ask u what u believe happens to us after death but u kinda answered that on the gnosis thread under this one. :-)"

This is a very difficult question for me to answer. The reason for my difficulty is that I have a very different view of reality than most western people. Thus my words are very easily misunderstood and misinterpreted.

Most people seem to believe that there is a clear line of distinction between the physical, mental and spiritual worlds. I see no such line of distinction at all. Most westerners think that consciousness depends upon the brain whereas I believe that the reverse is true. I believe that there is no independent origination in anything and that all phenonema depends upon some other phenomena for arising and decaying. The only exception for me is that which underpins all - the Unnamed, Unmanifest, the Essence of Being.

Thus when you ask what happens to 'us' after death, I would first have to question the nature of the 'I' who is supposedly doing the dying.

Secondly, I would have to question the very dying process itself by seeing it as a continuum of cause and effects that result in the 'breaking down' of the pattern of what we call the 'life form' of the body.

Thirdly, I would have to examine what underpins this pattern of what we call the 'life form' of the body. IMO, what underpins and governs this pattern doesn't cease to exist but moves on as a result of the matrix of causes and effects that propel it.

The Buddhists call this underpinning a 'consciousness stream'. IMO, this life force or consciousness stream is not a person but a kind of a force field for want of a better word.

IMO this 'force field' interacts with other cause, effects and conditions in the womb to kick start human life in the form of an embryo.

I don't believe that it is coincidental that of the thousands of sperm that find their way to the woman's egg in her fallopian tubes one particular one penetrates and fertilizes the egg. The growing embryo forms a pattern of life that develops a brain with a predisposition to be programmed a certain way. That predisposition IMO, is under the direct influence of the 'force field', 'stream of consciousness', the 'life force' - call it what you will - that was propelled forward by cause, effects and conditions after the 'death' of the 'previous' body prior to conception. What is born is another manifestation of a stream of consciousness that is ever changing and thus beyond any permanent essence of selfhood. In that sense there is no one who reincarnates only a continuum of the process called a 'stream of consciousness' that is interaction with all else either directly or indirectly without any demarcation or differentiation whatsoever.

Put simply I see the normal concept of 'death' held by most people as a preconditioned perception based upon human senses of sight, touch, hearing, smell, primitive religious beliefs and little else. Analogously speaking, just as a train terminating at a terminus is the end of one journey only for the train and not the end of the train per se, so also I see death as the perception of the end of only one body's human journey but not the end of the journey for the life giving 'pattern' underpinning that body. I choose to call that 'pattern', 'mind' - a different meaning for the word 'mind' as usually held by most people.

Please note that the Christian and Hindu concept of the 'soul' is an entirely different concept than my understanding of the 'stream of consciousness'; the former has selfhood the latter does not. This is where Hinduism and Buddhism markedly differ. I do not believe in the existence of the 'soul'.

If you cannot make any sense of what I have written don't worry. My views emanate from a different mental paradigm altogether than most people. And for Guest_guest's benefit I don't think that makes me special or better than anyone else in any way, as he might imagine.

Any words, that I use, are bound to fail to describe what I see as my reality.

July 27, 2006
10:44 pm
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Tez, my reality is anything that science has evidence for. Its enough for me if I can deal with just THAT stuff and just get THAT all together.

ok Seeker, well thanks, you are my non-spiritual brother in the spirit of athiesm and disbelief. I know its not that pleasing to hear for you but it sounds better if you're eating buttered popcorn with it. Ok I'm being silly.

Gosh I really need to get off my frigging ass and work for my career. Oh well its too late anyway, not its time to watch TV until I fall asleep. OMG.. whats gonna happen, I dont know.

July 27, 2006
11:04 pm
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Tez- that is very interesting. i am going to study on what u said for awhile. and look up the gospel of ST Thomas. Thank you for your insight. Thank you for sharing your beliefs, and thoughts with me.

Yes, words change meaning according to who is using them. The words themselves are never absolute . Or so i believe anyway.

I do have some concept of what u are saying. The train analogy put it in good perspective for me.

Sincerely;
Guppy

July 27, 2006
11:08 pm
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Tez

you're making it way too complicated than it is. I dont think that kind of attitude can be helpful in attaining real genuine peace but hey if that gives you peace of mind, so be it. I feel though you're fooling yourself and a part of you knows this.

>> If you cannot make any sense of what I have written don't worry. << She can depend on me to break it down in simple terms: - you believe in -re-incarnation. - you think you wont vanish after you die. Something will happen. The stream of conciousness will come out and do its thang, maybe turn into a frog, the annoying cicada outside my window doing 110 decibels or maybe that trout which I just had for dinner. Or anything, you get my point. 'consciousness stream' ? Describe it in PHYSICAL terms. Nope, you cant do it. Guppy, I been asking Tez to give me scientific evidence of this stream of conciousness. There is NO scientific evidence of conciousness to exist outside the brain - yet Tez believes it exists. He says he has had experiences that coincide with that of other people, yet he has NO proof that all this was not just happening in their heads. The experiences vary from one person to another. Hindu people dream of THEIR gods, Mormons see THEIR stuff and Christians see THEIR stuff and Muslims too - its all in the HEAD. Easy to see where their experiences are coming from - its all in the heads. The brain is extremely powerful and intense. Near death ofcourse it goes into overload and things happen which might not happen in natural life. Lights, buzzing sounds and flashbacks of life etc and meeting with the Gods, seeing their body's from outside. Yet again, there's NO evidence that all this isnt just happening in their heads. Its all in your head, Tez. Do you see that. Its all in your head. Dr. Nat talked about Death anxiety. You have'nt accepted the fact that you'll die, that we'll all die. You've run away from the fact, tried to sooth yourself by believing in conciousness to exist after death. It works for you.

July 27, 2006
11:18 pm
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guest,
God does wonderful things for me and blesses me everyday. For this I am thankful.

guppy yep, that is what i meant about the houses and people.

seek,
yes I am your sis in Christ, and yes we do disagree about religion.

and to everyone here who mentioned my screen name several times above whilst i was away...it was quite confusing. but please...for my sake..no need to explain!

cheers.

July 27, 2006
11:21 pm
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hi omw, whats that he does for you that hasnt happend for me or any other athiest or disbeliever?

I dont know how I would have responded to these questions when I was a believer. In my better moments, I might have thought "he just doesnt know, he hasnt seen the light" etc. Now I know better. In my bad moments I might have thought "that mf(me) is going to burn in hell, thats then he'll know that he didnt know"

July 27, 2006
11:24 pm
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guest,
if our brains do all of that stuff...wouldn't you think there would be intelligent design? look how powerful our brains are..very true...and we don't even utilize it to its full capacity. Tez is most likely right, but in light of all of that, how can a person not beleive that we were created instead of crawling out from under a rock and then to a tree hugger? hmmmmmm?

July 27, 2006
11:36 pm
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guest,
i guess i believe that anything that happens to me is good, even when it is painful, because i am always a better person for it. so because of this as well as just my everyday life, for me personally i don't think i would get through life as well as i do with God. he is in everything i do. but i do question, just like you, i have doubted, just like you...but through it all for me..i learned that the only constant and consistent force is in my life is God. two men were healed at church last night. and the person doing the healing knew what their illnesses were before they even were healed. that was God. i have been healed, and so have my sons.

it is different to know the "acts' of God than it is to know his 'ways'. if you talk to God at all you have a relationship with him. i have a relationship with him, but i am a bit stagnate right now...but i know GOd is in it, no doubt.

July 27, 2006
11:43 pm
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well see, there's no practical difference in the lives of beleivers and disbelievers - is what I'm tryng to say. Do you see any practical measurable difference? I dont.

Ok then as usual to that post, who created God then? He's an intelligent guy so created him?

July 27, 2006
11:55 pm
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beats me who created him, but for me i don't need to know the answer to that to have more faith. if we knew everything and believed everything we wouldn't need faith. is it important for you to know the answer though?

i think there is a difference between believers and non-believers lives....some believers ssee only what the world has to offer...and the world can only offer so much before it becomes boring. Things don't make people happy but only for a little while. I think we all have something like a void inside, because we are always trying to fill it up with something to take away bad feelings, or make us 'happier'. nothing wrong with materialism, i am very materialistic, but i don't use it to fill that void, but i used too. God lasts through anything for me. he fills my void.

it's about God. i want to be here for God. and the more i allow him to change me, the smaller my void becomes. my part is spending time with him. i am pretty dead inside right now though...i don't put him first in my life, other things crowd him out...but he is always there anyway even though i am not. my plan is to get to know him more and more.

July 28, 2006
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and if you could see these people at this church, then you would see the difference...incredible!

nite.

July 28, 2006
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alright guest-give me scientific evidence of the difference between good and bad. Give me hard core scientific evidence that it exists.

do u believe in love? why? give me scientific evidence to back up what u believe. bring it.

i looooooved your version of reincarnation. although i dont need u to break anything down for me. i can think on my own. I can answer for myself. It appears to me guest that u just told Tez how he feels and thinks. how arrogant. I think it is plum silly to presume to think for someone else. Unless , of course, u have some spiritual god like power you have been holding back untill now............;)

July 28, 2006
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guppy,

i've been talking to him for some time on this re-incarni thing so I know whats going on for him.

Come on now. Love is just a feeling, its a state of mind.

OMW_____, your void is there becuase of lack of self-esteem.

gosh i'm hungry I need to eat something and then gonna go nite.

July 28, 2006
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guest,

{ok Seeker, well thanks, you are my non-spiritual brother in the spirit of athiesm and disbelief.}

Welcome, brother! How are you? I think it's great to be your brother, and no, I'm not kidding.

{I know its not that pleasing to hear for you}

You're telling me what I feel. As a matter of fact, I pleases me to hear that.

BTW, by "spiritual brother" I meant spiritual as in our spirits instead of our bodies. The spirit, IMO, is what makes us alive. I meant it in no religious sense whatsoever.

July 28, 2006
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Oops! Change "As a matter of fact, I pleases me to hear that" to "As a matter of fact, it pleases me to hear that" in the last post.

July 28, 2006
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I'm going to take a break from this thread for a day or two. I need to get some perspective. Religion is a subject that pushes a lot of hot buttons for me. When I return, I'll focus on speaking of what I think, feel, etc. and be less dogmatic in what I say.

July 28, 2006
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I'm also not going to mention God too much, at least for a while. I don't always like it when others talk about God. Maybe I'm trying to hide behind him somehow. I believe in him as strongly as ever, still.

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