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Rubaiyat of Omar Khyyam - anyone interested?
March 25, 2009
7:29 pm
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On my way

I'm sorry that I didn't pick up on the authorship of what you wrote. But I agree with what you wrote about it.

There is so much turmoil in the world isn't there. Mysticism as opposed to intellectualism would certainly fix the problems of the world, do you think?

March 25, 2009
8:06 pm
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"Iram indeed is gone with all his Rose,

And Jamshýd's Sev'n-ring'd Cup where no one knows;

But still the Vine her ancient Ruby yields,

And still a Garden by the Water blows"

The quotes below are from 'The Glory of the Shia World'(1910), by P. M. Sykes and Khan Bahadur Ahmad din Khan,

"Perhaps the greatest among our many famous rulers was Jamshid, who introduced the use of iron, the art of weaving, the art of healing, and indeed many other arts, on which the happiness not only of Persia but of the entire world is based. ... ...
... ...
In truth, many Mussulmans would not approve of Hafiz when he writes:

'Saki, come! my bowl rekindle with the light of lustrous wine; but they understand that the poet means by the Saki or Cupbearer the Spiritual Instructor, who hands a cup of celestial love, which is typified by wine.'

However, in discussing this important question, Jamshid has been forgotten. He, apart from the wonderful discoveries made by him, was able, by means of his seven-ringed cup, not only to predict the future, but also to survey the entire world. In short, Jamshid ranks with Suliman or Solomon, son of David, as the lord of the Divs; and to-day there is the Takht-i-Suliman and also the Takht-i-Jamshid close together in Fars; and they say that there is no doubt whatever that the latter is much finer than the former."

Apparently Iram was a garden planted by King Shaddad, and now sunk somewhere in the Sands of Arabia.

It seems that Jamshyd's Seven-ring'd Cup was typical of the 7 Heavens, 7
Planets, 7 Seas, &c. and was a Divining Cup used for predicting the future using astrology.

All great powers are passing and impermanent. Yet amongst and despite of all this transience there is something more that springs eternal from the psyche. What is it? Omar answers thus:

"But still the Vine her ancient Ruby yields,
"

Jesus used this metaphor of the "Vine" also. "Her ancient Ruby" is IMHO in one shallow sense talking about the grape. Yet in a deeper mystical sense I think that it is referring to the emanations of mystical "Ruby" minds from the Mind of the Supreme Vine of the Ultimate.

"And still a Garden by the Water blows"

Still the mystical spirit of man moves in mysterious ways, wonders to perform.

March 25, 2009
8:09 pm
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>> I no longer feel able to share sacred beliefs of a personal nature with anyone

I could say the same. At one point in the past I suggested I might have Asperger's syndrome (not true and therapist rejected this diagnosis after I asked them if I had it) and your comment above to me was:

>> This is symptomatic of Asperger's Syndrome. I seem to vaguely remember that you mentioned suffering from this illness. Perhaps this might excuse your obnoxious behavior here and elsewhere. But if this is true then you may need to seek help in a hurry.

So if there's anyone who should complain of not feeling safe, it should be me.

>> I suggest that you ban both Guest_guest and myself permanently from this AAC site.

I dont think there's a need for this but ofcourse its up to SC to do what they think should be done. Adults can still talk about things and if they dont want to, they can ignore each other. If I comment on anything, you dont have to react to it. You reacted to everything I said in my thread on Reincarnation, yet you had the option to listen to SC's advice and ignore me and stay away from that thread, but you did not.

I'm really fine with you ignoring me, i.e. if you can.

I had made the Reincarnation thread after being told to stay away from each other, yet you violated the rule and came into the thread and commented.

The solution is: lets talk like adults and if you dont want to speak to me from now on? Thats fine. If I see any comments on religion or faith from anyone, I cant help commenting. If someone here says Hitler was a great man, it would only be natural for me to speak my mind and say in a mature adult way why I disagree.

Two adults can disagree in a civil manner, surely, right? So I dont get what the commotion is about.

Now if you want me to leave this thread - fine, I'm leaving if that makes you happy. You're welcome though to say anything you like on my threads for now.

March 25, 2009
8:44 pm
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Site Coordinator.

Guest_guest wrote to me above:

"Oh really? Ok - if you leave all the threads I have made, then I'll leave the ones you made. Deal?"

Please check that what I am about to write is true:

1. Guest_guest followed me to my new Omar Khayyam thread and is disrupting it with nasty irrelevant remarks?

2. I have not gone anywhere near G_g's Diary of Guest_guest thread since 21-Jan-09, well over two months.

3. I have not gone anywhere near G_g's "Tibet under the Dalai Lamas: Tales of Slavery, Torture and Serfdom thread" since the 18th Feb-09, well over a month now?

4. I have never ever visited G_g's "How do you make YOUR cheap quick meals" thread at all?

5. I have avoided all other threads where G_g posts.

6. G_g has never failed to disrupt any thread that I have started in recent times with his extreme negativity and defamatory remarks and cuts and pastes.

7. He has engaged me in a what only be described as a very nasty interchange on TBT's "# OK - as a tempoary atheist/agnostic....." thread. TBT and just about every one else has fled that thread now. I restrict my exchanges with him to this site and the Reincarnation Thread until he started disrupting this thread.

8. I have not had such a persistent ongoing attack on my posts from anyone else in the 10+ years that I have been posting here.

Guest_guest has made my visits here untenable to the extent that I no longer feel able to share sacred beliefs of a personal nature with anyone for fear of having Guest_guest disrupt my interchanges with nice people such as OMW, Healing.. and peace, BevDee, Littlespirit, MsGuide, peace4all, Marypoppins and many others. His argumentative, malicious, win/lose one-up-man-ship games drive everyone away from my threads. This I believe is his objective in disrupting my threads.

I know that in the past I have engaged Christians in debate. I did this seeking answers for myself until the realizations came home to me regarding the pain I was unknowingly inflicting on others. Guest_guest knows only too well what pain he is causing others here. That's his aim and objective, IMHO - to drive them away from my threads by multiple nasty posts as seen above

To solve this problem you would need the wisdom of King Solomon.

If I may, I would like to make a suggestion to you. Rather than you wasting untold hours scanning through posts over the last 10 years trying to decide whose 'right' or whose in the 'wrong', I suggest that you ban both Guest_guest and myself permanently from this AAC site.

I further suggest that you watch carefully that neither he nor I appear here again under another nickname. I certainly won't do that. But to be fair, I include myself in that suggestion.

March 25, 2009
9:22 pm
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This is the 3rd time you're posting this same exact writeup.

March 26, 2009
4:08 am
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on my way
Please don't let the poisoned, sick mind of Guest_guest drive you away from this thread. If and when he is removed from this AAC site and I am no longer around please continue to post each verse in turn and discuss them with the good people who come back after G_g is gone.

March 26, 2009
4:17 am
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Verse 6

"And David's Lips are lock't; but in divine

High piping Pehlevi, with "Wine! Wine! Wine!

"Red Wine!"--the Nightingale cries to the Rose

That yellow Cheek of hers to'incarnadine."

March 27, 2009
7:20 am
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Tumbleweed8
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Just checking to see if anyone commented on verse 6 yet. I was unable to post yesterday, but was simply saying that I have much more reading to do to try to understand these verses. I think a discussion of them would be interesting.

March 27, 2009
4:04 pm
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Tez,
I am used to guest's mind, and it isn't right that he follows you around with such criticism, but I generally find compassion and see some good in everyone.

In response to your question about mysticism/intellectualism...I am not a supporter of either. To me mysticism misinterprets and does not represent truthfully who God is, and intellectualism doesn't leave room for any earthy conversation as we are trying to have through the beautiful prose of this thread. 🙂 I do not comprehend the mystic light as much as you do. As you can see I am a bit close-minded to mysticism in this way, however as I said, I do appreciate the beauty of these writings you have posted here.

I don't have any ideas yet as to vs. 6, except that 'David' must be the David of the Psalms in the Bible.

Tubleweed, I agree with you. I too have some reading to do, I never knew these existed before now.

March 27, 2009
6:17 pm
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On My Way.

Thanks for your response.

I'm not sure what your understanding of mysticism is, or if my understanding is even the same as either that of the main stream thinkers or your own.

My mind instantly went to the great Christian theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas who in his last few months of his life had a mystical experience and wrote: "All that I have written is but straw" and never wrote another theological document again. It seems that what Thomas Aquinus was saying was that by comparison to seeing the 'nature of things' with the 'third eye'- for want of a better name - all the intellectual ways of knowing are dry and of little real value.

It is my belief that there are no words to satisfactorily describe a genuine mystical experience. Words were made by the intellect for the intellect. Though the intellect is a powerful tool as a way of knowing, IMHO mystical experiences do not happen through the use of the intellect. If my belief is correct then how can a mystic even explain or describe his/her experience even to another mystic let alone anyone who has never had a mystical experience?

There have been many great Christian mystics. To see what Wikipedia considers to be a very incomplete list of mystics see this link.

March 27, 2009
6:42 pm
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Tumbleweed8

Yep! Much reading have I yet to do too.

Verse 6

"And David's Lips are lock't; but in divine

High piping Pehlevi, with "Wine! Wine! Wine!

"Red Wine!"--the Nightingale cries to the Rose

That yellow Cheek of hers to'incarnadine."

My interpretation is that King David, despite all his power and majesty, is deceased and can no longer speak. Thus goes the way of all earthly power, fame, glory, influence and eloquence. But through knowing the 'Divine' through ancient beautiful Sanskrit teachings(High piping Pehlevi) and deep ecstatic meditation("with "Wine! Wine! Wine!") our ordinary minds can touch the Infinite;can blossom into the full bloom of wisdom, compassion and love("divine") - like the yellow rose of Persia is yellow in the morning yet changes to a deep red in the afternoon.

Anyone else like to give their meaning of verse 6?

March 27, 2009
8:58 pm
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Hi Everyone, I finally had a chance to check back and glad to see both of your posts. Tez, I really couldn't put into words the way you have interpreted verse 6, but now that you have done the work of interpreting it and posting it here, it makes perfect sense to me. I know some about meditation so even though I'm not at that point of such deep meditation, I can understand. I would not think a mystic could explain that very well either because I always think a mystic is one who is just that. I think of it like the naturally gifted people who just sing without training or do whatever it is they do without all the effort intellectually, I guess one could say.

March 28, 2009
8:32 am
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Tumbleweed8

On the 27-Mar-09 you wrote:

"I think of it like the naturally gifted people who just sing without training or do whatever it is they do without all the effort intellectually"

"the Nightingale cries to the Rose"

Who trains the Nightingale to sing? Surely the Nightingale makes no intellectual effort in singing so melodiously? Perhaps you have put in the piece missing from my explanation of Verse 6 above. Perhaps as the Buddha said, Buddha nature is the pure eternal spring, from which ecstasy and bliss issues forth as naturally as a Nightingale's song when we, in meditation, let go of all those thoughts produced by the intellect; thoughts to which we normally grasp and cling obscuring vision - otherwise so clear. Thus the yellow rose of our deluded conscious awareness never blooms red in full blown awareness of that which truly 'is'.

March 28, 2009
8:40 am
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Hey all.

Please don't ever take my explanations here as gospel. My posts are only what I think that the verse means. Heaps better explanations may well dwarf mine completely!! Please don't let my explanations put a full stop to your deeper insights and pure vision. Let your 'wellspring' bubble forth uninhibited by the words issuing clumsily from my intellect.

March 28, 2009
10:09 am
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Tez,

I just read your post here to the SC, I have not seen your post as hurtful to anyone at all, quite the oposite, they have always been helpful to readers as far as I'm concerned. You have stood your ground to Guest, and after so many attempts made by him to attempt to disrupt anything you post, you got tired of it, and you responded, don't feel bad for that, you had all the right to stand up to his attempts to distroy what you have posted.

Even without deep meditation, I'm sure you know how simple some minds can be, and how stupid some things are that have been posted.

I believe you are keenly aware "conscious" of how when we allow ourselves to get caught up in some exchange of worthless words how ridiculous they can become, and worthless. There always will be some that can not see, can not understand, can't allow themselves to view with an open mind, but your not responsible for those minds, or how some view your beliefs, it is always up to ones self to take it as it is, believe it or not, but to put it down and attempt to distroy your views isn't right at all. When a person does such, it simply puts it all into a perspective that most can see and understand, some are just simply not ready, just as you have stated in one of your post to me.

So I would suggest AAC site coordinator not to remove you from this site. You have shared a lot of your knowledge, and it is always helpful to read, you have deminstrated a high intellectual level, and I hope you continue to do so.

Healing and peace

March 28, 2009
2:28 pm
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Tez,

I've been pondering the meanings of these verses, because I had read the moving finger quote a long time ago, probably in Gone With the WInd., or some other popular novel!! :~)- I think Rhett said it to Scarlett cause she changed her mind....

I hope I'm not beating a dead horse (or camel), but I want to say that I was struck by the fact that this man lived in the same geographic region as the men and woman now called "Gnostics" did. Xtianity was derived from the religions of Persia- Islam, Mithras and Isis cults. It's also speculated that the more recent esoteric schools of thought were influenced by Islam. The Knights Templar incorporated symbols and rituals from that religion when they were stationed in Jerusalem during The Crusades.

I tend to agree with Tez's opinion stated here- ": "All that I have written is but straw" and never wrote another theological document again. It seems that what Thomas Aquinus was saying was that by comparison to seeing the 'nature of things' with the 'third eye'- for want of a better name - all the intellectual ways of knowing are dry and of little real value."

I believe that the *moving finger writes and having writ moves on* may refer to an individual's spiritual journey - the evolution of her/his consciousness. I believe it is so for me. What I wrote three years ago, was me, and is still part of me, but it's not all of me, as I am now. Three years ago, I was in one of the darker nights of my soul.

I really like to ponder this quote.

"Mind, I believe, exists as fleeting energy in parallel universes. The universe we perceive consists of the overlap of these fleeting flashes of energy. The patterns create mind as surely as they create matter. Both the existence of matter and the perception of it are the same thing."
- Fred Allen Wolf, Parallel Universes

That boggles my finite little mind!!

March 28, 2009
4:15 pm
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Yes, I believe there is a pure eternal spring or however else one wants to term it depending on their perception. I do know there is that very peaceful, clear place where everything seems very natural. Where we can hear clearly things in nature, we wouldn't normally hear as we go through our daily lives. And yes, for sure thoughts and concerns over whatever obscures these very blissful experiences. My mind still wants to think it could take years of discipline to hold onto one of those experiences longer, yet they are just there suddenly when you do experience them because for that moment or however long without realizing it, you have let go. I would love to really understand parallel universes and multidimensions, also. I have been trying to grasp the idea of multidimensions since my son mentioned that topic to me which he seems to understand so easily. A few years later now since he mentioned it to me, I am still trying to really get it. Just mentioning this, but not to get off the verses now, just happened to think of this, also. I read the next verse and have given it some thought so perhaps I'll be able to respond with something to contribute. I like reading all the perceptions people have of these verses and other topics as well on libs side.

March 28, 2009
6:50 pm
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Healing.. and peace.

On the 28-Mar-09 you wrote:

"Tez,

I just read your post here to the SC, I have not seen your post as hurtful to anyone at all, quite the opposite, they have always been helpful to readers as far as I'm concerned.

You have stood your ground to Guest, and after so many attempts made by him to attempt to disrupt anything you post, you got tired of it, and you responded, don't feel bad for that, you had all the right to stand up to his attempts to distroy what you have posted.

Even without deep meditation, I'm sure you know how simple some minds can be, and how stupid some things are that have been posted. ... "

Thanks for your kind and reassuring words and lovely warm sentiments - they are much appreciated.

This morning during my pre-dawn meditation walk in the bush, I clearly saw that the only perception that I own is my own. All others have the right to their own perceptions and no matter how different these perceptions might be to mine, I have no right to try to bludgeon others into seeing things my way. Equally, no one else has either the right or the power to alter my perceptions to suit themselves. At best, all others can do is to present their perceptions to me as an alternative for me to consider. Even at the point of a gun to my head I have my own perceptions under my jurisdiction alone.

For me the problems arise when I demand/want/insist that the perceptions of others meet with my approval. Lets say someone makes what I perceive to be a derogatory remark about either me or my beliefs. If I perceive such a person to be somewhat challenged intellectually/spiritually or physically, then I can easily accept that this person's perspectives are pitiful and of no concern of mine. Of course if I perceive some truth in these derogatory remarks then like the toad ugly and venomous there are precious jewels in even this. If there is no truth whatsoever in these derogatory remarks then where is the problem for me? Now comes the whammy! If I perceive that I have a 'jewel' to share with others that I consider a 'diamond' of great worth and along comes a deranged person and shits all over that diamond obscuring it completely from others, this then causes consternation in me. Sure I have 'pure motives' for being a little miffed. But are my motives that pure?

But what is happening here? Firstly I elevate myself in my own mind to the position of supreme judge and jury over what is in fact a 'diamond' and what is not. Secondly I have assumed the right to say who has the right to shit, when and where. Thirdly I assume the position of both policeman and executioner in bringing the defecating culprit to justice; justice that involves punishment so decreed by me.

Then after seeing the upheaval that I have wrought in administering 'justice', I then make a strong case for myself that the end justifies the means. But does the end justify the means, ever?? Won't the defecating culprit will think twice now when choosing where to drop his foul load? Perhaps next time he will not bypass the many public toilets on his way to crap in my beautiful yellow Persian rose garden.

But what if this defecating culprit was to oblige my local Chinese market gardener by relieving himself in that good man's cabbage patch? Then that dear Chinaman would in all probability embrace and welcome this passing benefactor into his home to partake of a healthy dinner of delicious Chinese cuisine. After all fertilizer is the very life blood of this market gardener's wonderfully healthy produce. So is my vision of Mr. Crapper any more or less valid that that of Mr. Who Flung Dung, the market gardener? No - my vision is only my perspective derived from my criteria, my past experiences, my intellect, my biases, my ...

It is when I consider my vision superior to that of another no matter how deranged I perceive that person to be, that I create the cross upon which I nail myself only to blame another.

March 28, 2009
7:47 pm
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Hi Bevdee

Thanks for your deep thoughts on and your very interesting interpretation of verse # 51 of Omar's.

You wrote:

"... I want to say that I was struck by the fact that this man lived in the same geographic region as the men and woman now called "Gnostics" did. Xtianity was derived from the religions of Persia- Islam, Mithras and Isis cults. It's also speculated that the more recent esoteric schools of thought were influenced by Islam. The Knights Templar incorporated symbols and rituals from that religion when they were stationed in Jerusalem during The Crusades."

On my walk this morning the thought sprung from seemingly no where, that mysticism is truly the intersection of all religions great and small. The atheistic 'mystics' in Buddhism have no less in common with the mystics of theistic religions. IMHO, it is only the labels, the names, the definitions, the descriptions that are applied to these intellectually modulated and translated mystical experiences after the event that differentiate one religion from another.

Watching science grapple with the mystical components of quantum physics is very informative in this regard. The Dr. Fred Allen Wolf that you quoted is a quantum physicist, I believe. Listening to him speak is highly enlightening in that I see the mystical intersection between science and religion emanating from his lips too. Your quote further confirms this perspective of mine.

"The patterns create mind as surely as they create matter. Both the existence of matter and the perception of it are the same thing."

Hsing Yun says that "Consciousness and the contents of consciousness are one and the same."

There seems to be a difference between Hsing Yun's statement above and that of Dr. Fred Wolf's. But is there really? I suspect that a mystic would say NO!

Thanks BevDee for your very deep thought provoking words.

March 28, 2009
8:34 pm
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Tumbleweed8

I thank you too for your equally as deep and interesting post.

On the 28-Mar-09 you wrote:

"Yes, I believe there is a pure eternal spring or however else one wants to term it depending on their perception. I do know there is that very peaceful, clear place where everything seems very natural. Where we can hear clearly things in nature, we wouldn't normally hear as we go through our daily lives. And yes, for sure thoughts and concerns over whatever obscures these very blissful experiences."

What you wrote above brought to mind verse 13 of the Gospel of St. Thomas seen below.

."13. Yeshúa says to his Disciples:

'Make a comparison to me, and tell me whom I resemble.'

Shimon Kefa says to him:

'Thou art like a righteous angel.'

Matthew says to him:

'Thou art like a philosopher of the heart.'

Thomas says to him:

'Teacher, my mouth will not at all be capable of saying whom thou art like!

Yeshúa says:

'I'm not thy teacher, now that thou have drunk, thou have become drunken from the bubbling spring which I have measured out.'

And he takes him, he withdraws, he speaks three words to him.

Now when Thomas comes to his comrades, they inquire of him: What did Yeshúa say to thee? Thomas says to them: If I tell you even one of the words which he spoke to me, you will take up stones to cast at me--and fire will come from the stones to consume you." - The Gospel According To St. Thomas.

Wow! Hasn't the 'drunkenness' imagery described here reminiscent of Omar's words "Wine! Wine! Wine!" in his verse 6? Did Omar experience that which Thomas experienced under Jesus's mystical 'guidance'("which I have measured out") rather than his 'teachings'("I'm not thy teacher"). Did Jesus not make this point above? Or is that drawing a long bow - do you think?

If I am not drawing too long a bow then I can clearly see the intersection of Christian and Islamic Sufi mysticism here.

March 28, 2009
8:45 pm
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Verse # 7

"Come, fill the Cup, and in the Fire of Spring

The Winter Garment of Repentance fling:

The Bird of Time has but a little way

To fly--and lo! the Bird is on the Wing."

March 28, 2009
8:49 pm
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Hey Tez

"Wow! Hasn't the 'drunkenness' imagery described here reminiscent of Omar's words "Wine! Wine! Wine!" in his verse 6?"

I knew it reminded me of something. Nah- not too long a bow.

March 28, 2009
10:16 pm
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Yes, you can certainly see the intersection there. In my past in searching various studies, religions, groups, I saw similarities in all of them. At least that was my perception at the time and probably still is. I had a problem with the teachers though so I would leave one after another even though I kept learning through all those experiences. Maybe I simply took what I could use and left the rest of it, I don't know. Interesting to me though, how Yeshua said "I am not your teacher." That is all quite thought provoking. In fact this thread with all the posts seem to be thought provoking for lack of a better way to say what I mean. I am giving more thought to verse 7 now. I keep thinking of springtime as a time of renewal, a time of beginning all over again. Which means to me one would have to let go of past things and start anew. Also, that this is the time to do that. To me, even that nature is very much supporting that in this time of spring. It says to me this season is short so it is time to move forward now. Actually like our time which springs forward one hour.

March 28, 2009
11:24 pm
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Bevdee.

Thanks for your bow length advice. 🙂

March 28, 2009
11:31 pm
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Tumbleweed8

On the 28-Mar-09 you wrote:

"Interesting to me though, how Yeshua said "I am not your teacher." That is all quite thought provoking."

Yes. Note that Jesus did add:"which I have measured out."

Great masters, gurus, Lamas, etc can give mystical experiences to others just by being in their presence without saying a word. I suspect that Jesus gave Thomas such an experience at least once, maybe several times. But of course the experience would have been "measured out" by Jesus so as not to blow Thomas's 'ordinary', mundane mind.

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