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reprint of Codependent No More, Chapter 5
August 28, 2007
3:30 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Thread Title: Codependent No More CHAPTER 5
Below are all posts for this thread:

mamacinnamon
29-Jan-07

CHAPTER 5 - DETACHMENT

Questions to ponder:

1. Is there a problem or person in your life that you are excessively worried about? Write about that person or problem. Write as much as you need to to get it out of your system. When you have written all you need to about this person or problem, focus on yourself. What are you thinking? What are you feeling?

2. How do you feel about detaching from that person or problem? What might happen if you detach? Will that probably happen anyway? How has staying "attached" worrying, obsessing, trying to control - helped so far?

3. If you did not have the person or problem in your life, what would you be doing with your life that is different from what you are doing now? How would you be feeling and behaving? Spend a few minutes visualizing yourself living your life, feeling and behaving the way - in spite of your unsolved problem. Visualize your hands placing in God's hands the person or problem you are concerned about. Visualize His hands gently and lovingly holding that person or willingly accepting that problem. Now, visualize His hands holding you. All is well for the moment. All is as it should and as it needs to be. All will be well - better than you think.

white dove
29-Jan-07

pity i cant detach myself from myself, things would be better for myself and everyone.

mj
30-Jan-07

Ok today visualizing Gods hand!

mj
31-Jan-07

Today asking for guidance from my HP so that I may detach and learn healthy behaviors.

soprano2
31-Jan-07

May you find the guidance you need to help you get through the day.

mamacinnamon
31-Jan-07

I swear I am gonna have to put a calendar on my forehead so every time I look in the mirror I could see what day it is. This is the 3rd week I thought it to be Thursday and it is only Wednesday. lol. I'm ready for class. Was just putting a few more thoughts down. Oh my, I cannot believe three weeks in a row. I'm gonna go ahead and post as soon as i finish. That way if I forget tomorrow is Thursday then oh well.

Lord, help me to get my Wednesdays and Thursdays straightened out.

I roll my eyes here.

mamacinnamon
31-Jan-07

This chapter came at a good time, but not so good time for me. I have a friend, B, that I have known many years. I have helped her raise her kids and worked w/ her regarding her relationship w/ her husband. I have actually been very involved w/ her relationship the last 6 years, but remember her always thinking he cheated on her the last 10 years.

Long story short, things have gotten increasingly worse in the last year. Worse to the point that I was taking her kids because the 6 yr old would just want her mom and her mom would push her away and curse and call her names and then lock the door so she couldn’t get in for her mom to hold her. She would scream at all the kids, especially S, 14 yr old. She pulled him from school 4 years ago and has done nothing toward his education in the last 4 years.

Things got to a volatile point and she started drinking, sleepin around w/ a 19 yr old, smokin dope w/ her son, etc. etc. etc. It got to a point the kids were at my door and had run the length of town because mom and dad were at it again. Ending to this point w/ them separated, dad filed, mom has bogus restraining order, social services has been called in (thank God) etc.

I had to detach. I told her I cannot condone her behavior toward her kids or what she is doing in front of and w/ them. I called and told her I have done my best to be a good friend and given her the best non-legal advice I could. She won’t listen; she doesn’t want to listen. So I said do not ever call me again. She hasn’t.

I emailed her mom to see how the kids are. I talked to others that are in contact w/ her to see how the kids are and her. I do care very much for her kids and her but cannot be a part of this craziness any longer. I have felt sad coz she hasn’t called me, but why would she, I told her not to. I do wonder how the kids are, if they are ok. Is it codependency if you are watching and keepin up on what’s goin on w/ the kids from a distance? I cannot see me never talking to B again, but who knows. But the kids all know that my door is always open to them.

bevdee
31-Jan-07

MamaC

"That way if I forget tomorrow is Thursday then oh well."

You are too cute!!

armyleo
1-Feb-07

Okay "honest indian (injun)" here...I must admit that I soon as I saw the questions I immediately bolted and thought to myself no more, getting to close and too deep. Can't do it...They want me to walk out, sorry no can't do it.

So today I read the chapter and I was surprised, surprised at what detachment really is....

However, after reading the chapter I felt this ache in my stomach...like a worry ache....Like they want me to let go of my control...like I can't do this...I'm clutch the rope, and gritting my theeth like they say, and have raw burns on my hands, but the thought of letting go frightens me....

So I will sleep on it and answer the questions tomorrow. Stomach really does hurt...

armyleo
1-Feb-07

"walk out" meaning my marriage...

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

I posted this to Army on another thread and then thought that maybe there are others that feel as she does about this bein to much to handle right now. So, I am posting the same thing I said there now here. That way if there is anyone else that feels as Army does in that this chaper is to much to digest at this time they will know that nobody expects anyone to continue on or jump in w/o testing the water.

"Honey, I know this is a hard chapter to take. This is usually where I have lose others I have gone thru the book one-on-one w/, Here is what I tell them...

IF this is to soon for you to deal w/ it then don't. But if you are ever gonna move on then you must. We must all face our fears eventually or live in a little box and watch the world pass us by. I will be the first to admit that it does not feel like such a bad thing to sit in my box and watch the world pass me by, but eventually it will catch up w/ you. Instead of it bein ok to leave you behind eventually they replace you. You are left sitting in your box and they have found someone to take your place to go live life w/.

I am not trying to cause you more pain or illness. ((((holding you close)))). I just want to give you the facts.

IF this chapter is to much for you at this time then lets skip over it and go on to the next. Or maybe try a page a day instead of the whole thing. Honey, I am here to help you w/ your journey in any way I can. All you have to do is reach out and take ahold of my hand. Mine or Free's.

soprano2
1-Feb-07

What good advice. Detachment is hard and scary. But it helps you figure out what relationships are based on healthy boundaries. When you detach from "needy" relationships--you find you have much more time to deal with yourself and other healthy relationships.

mj
1-Feb-07

Detachment is a tool. You can choose to use or not use. Detachment isn't about getting rid of relationships. Detachment helps you to take care of your own life. When we get overly involved in others business, that's when the crazy's move in. Detachment is the tool we use to take loving care of ourselves and others. Sometimes detachment is done in anger, but the goal of detachment is for ourselves. Codependents focus on others allowing no time to live their own live. The goal is to put your life and needs in a priority role.

Yesterday I posted this on my thread and I am pasting it here today. Good Morning 🙂 This month just flew by. Today was the deadline I set for myself to get employment. OK, so I will just have to move the deadline.

I went to my Coda meeting yesterday. One of our members with 18 years is moving. I became treasurer and another member took my previous position as Group Service Rep. It was a good meeting. I was sad to hear that the member is moving even though promises that the member would come back when in town. Change! Sometimes it is sad.

My daughter called and said that she is beginning to believe that her father is her blessing. He makes her smile and relax after her stressful day. I am happy for her that she is building a relationship with him and that she is believing in a Higher Power. I guess sharing what I am learning is helpful.

I have been thinking about Detachment. I think I do attach myself to people, places, and things. Attachment is becoming overly-involved, sometimes hopelessly entangled. According to the book,Codependent no more, Attachment can take several forms: "We may become excessively worried about and preoccupied with a problem or person, or we may graduate to becoming obsessed with and controlling of the people and problems in our environment, or we may become emotionally dependent on the people around us, and we may become caretakers(rescuere,enablers) to the people around us."

"The problem with attachment are many. Overinvolvement of any sort can keep us in a state of chaos. If we're focusing all our energies on people and problems, we have little left for the business of living our own lives."

Yesterday, my coda friend asked me to come over and hang out and help motivate her to not go back to bed and get her household responsibilities done this morning? Of course I said yes. I tossed and turned all night worry about it. She wants to take me to lunch at a gay hangout down the coast. This is a perfect example of people pleasing. I had to worry and obsess all night about how to get out of it. Am I forthright and just honest. Not interested! Or do I follow through and next time be honest right up front. This is the obsessing I do. I need practice with this. I don't like my behavior of rescuing or enabling or hurting myself to keep friends. I didn't even share my plans with hubby today because I know he wouldn't like it.

How am I feeling? Knotted up. Anxious, scared, unhappy, and unbalanced. This is the chaos.

I suppose this is my answer. If it doesn't feel right. Don't do it.

I guess I need to ask for courage from my HP to call my friend and be straight forward. I need to say NO, I have changed my plan for today.

I have a history of changing my mind. I now know why. I need to learn to say NO and let it go. I want to learn this lesson.

My friends problem with her motivation is her business. I have other responsibilities today. I am not sure if I even enjoy being her friend. I don't want to be paraded around today. I want my serenity back.

I want to take care of myself. "Detaching doesn't mean we don't care, it means we learn to love, care, and be involved without going crazy." I want to find the freedom to live my life without excessive guilt. Yesterday, I drove my friend to the meeting. I smoke with the windows down and I still felt guilty. I don't want to feel guilty about my nicotine addiction. I have enough shame already that I am trying to reprogram to healthy behavior. I am obsessing again. Ok, I will take care of myself.

mj
1-Feb-07

How did I feel about detaching from my commitment? Guilty

I made the call. I didn't do it perfectly and I feel lots of internalized shame. I asked her if she minded if I petered out. She was very straight forward and said that I didn't have to say petered out because saying No is acceptable. Then she shared about a contractor who hasn't followed up with her on a service he was going to provide and that she would appreciate straight forwardness with him. She felt like he didn't want to work for her because she was a lesbian. I feel shame for not being honest with her about my feelings. I feel phony. I admire that she is accepting of who she is and makes no apologies for it. That's why I like being around her. I feel confused about why I feel the way I do. I feel like I have betrayed her by not telling her that it bothered me three weeks ago when I was feeling vulnerable and she looped her arm through mine. I feel confused if I was reading more into it. I am trying to be open-minded and accepting of her and I truly do like her. She is a Special person. I blame myself for being so petty over not wanting to go to a gay restaurant. She asked me if I wanted to go walking later. I declined that as my body just aches all over from the over exertion of lifting all those hay bales. Yesterday I made it through but today I still feel like everything hurts. Getting out of shapes sucks.

Hubby came home unexpectedly with the newspaper and does his normal "Get a Job" retort. He tells me that his friend wanted to know if I really wanted a job then there is one he will check in for me. I checked online through their website and I do not possess a associate degree in Business Administration or 8 years secretarial employment. I am going to apply any way because I feel like I have to prove to my husband its not me. Am I screwed up or what? All this negative self talk is hurling me further into the deep dark abcess of my soul. Yes, I am codependent.

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

(((( MJ ))))

You hang in there. 🙂

mj
1-Feb-07

I will! Thanks for the Hug MamaC! See everyone at the book study tonight at 7:30 Pacific time.

armyleo
1-Feb-07

Sopranon, MJ & mamacin,

Thanks for the encouraging words...

Okay here it is the answer to the 1st question.

I excessively worry about H. I've written so much and yet I haven't. I want the perfect marriage, I don't even want perfect any more I just want him to me me like his wife, I want to be respected. I want him to do family things with us. Spend time as a family. Although I think we're missing the boat, because the girls are growing up. I wanted them to experience a warm family life.

I want him to acknowledge me as an equal not toss me around as if I'm a piece of scum and don't count.

What am I thinking? Honestly that I've been at this for years, I've tried every which way to change, I keep hoping one day he will change. That one day I will experience the family life I have wanted.

What are you feeling? I've feeling sad, tired, for something that not happening, I'm scared of the future.

I'm mad that it hasn't changed, and really scared of facing the truth.

Free says I won't get annihilated, I never realized how much fear I have...I wondered if it's because it's been built up for so long, that it's this huge, huge gigantic wall, that feels impossible to overcome...

If I detach from the person I think, somehow I will loose myself, I will find out he never cared, he never loved, and when there is hope even a little spark, I grab at it.

How has staying "attached" helped? I thought I was helping make my marriage better, I thought I was in control...I thought I could change him...I thought one day he would... but maybe it hasn't helped so far...

Okay crying now...

I don't know what I would be doing different...I can't see myself wanting anything, but my little family life...at least that's how I see it now...When I was younger I had all these lofty ideas, we would travel together, we would host parties together, we would be the perfect family....Visualize myself feeling free, I guess, being able to do what I want with the kids without feeling guilty, or scared, or have to hide, the fact that we went somewhere...

I can't place him in God's hands because he doesn't believe, in him...and I know I'm suppose to place the problem in his hands, but it's hard, I'm scared to let go, I don't know why!!!

He hasn't fixed it now, why would I think it will change???? For years and years I've spent nights wide awake not sleeping, because he didn't come home, didn't know where he was...and because of his job, I never knew if he was hurt etc...

You want to know something I can't visualize Him holding me...It would cause me to break down, because I have always done this on my own...It's hard for me to accept the fact that I need help...I CAN:T LET GO I'm scared no-one is going to be there for me....

I'm sorry trust is hard....

bevdee
1-Feb-07

Army

Do you remember when I told you help came to me in the most unexpected forms? You will be amazed at the help you will get and where it will come from - and especially that it will come from within yourself.

mj
1-Feb-07

I have trust issues as well Army. It's okay to be where you are at today. We are all at the place where we are today. We are enough!

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

HI ya'll:

I am here. Will be back in a few minutes.

mj
1-Feb-07

Good Evening 🙂 I am present too!

bevdee
1-Feb-07

Hi me too

mj
1-Feb-07

Hi Bevdee!

armyleo
1-Feb-07

soory, I don't think I can be here, my brother came over with his 3 kids, I'll come back as soon as I can.

mj
1-Feb-07

Thanks Army for letting us know!

mj
1-Feb-07

Detachment and Being Detached By Remez Sasson

Detachment is an inner state of calmness and being uninvolved on the emotional and mental planes. It is definitely not indifference. People who are indifferent do not care about anything, and are not active and initiative. On the other hand, people who possess emotional and mental detachment can be very active and caring, though they accept calmly whatever happens. Such people accept the good and the bad equally, because they enjoy inner balance and peace.

If they cannot do or change something, it does not disturb their peace of mind. If they are convinced of the importance of some action, they will pursue it whole-heartedly, and can ignore distractions easily. If they succeed with what they do, that is fine, and if they don't, they will either try again or forget the matter and move to something else.

Count the number of times you got emotionally involved in something against your will and better judgment. How many times have you got angry, frustrated or disappointed? How many times have your moods swung high and low? Each time you tell yourself that next time you will stay cool and calm, and yet each time you forget what you said.

When it comes to personal affairs, it is hard to stay emotionally uninvolved. You get involved, and this is quite natural, otherwise life would have been boring. Involvement makes life ticking and active. Yet, it advisable to develop at least some detachment, as this will help you in many situations.

Detachment is important in daily life, in the pursuit of ambitions and on the spiritual path. It is of great importance to everyone, whether pursuing spirituality or material success. Every spiritual tradition speaks about detachment, but detachment cannot be confined only to spirituality.

Let me give you some examples of detachment. Suppose you meditate, but thoughts keep coming into your mind. You get emotionally involved with your thoughts, follow them and forget about your meditation and concentration. If you were able to manifest detachment it would have been easier to ignore the disturbing thoughts. Detachment would have helped you to stay collected and concentrated.

What happens when somebody says to you something that you do not like? You will probably become angry, unhappy or insulted. Why is this so? Because you value other's people words and opinions more than you value your own thoughts and opinions of yourself. You let other's people thoughts, words and actions influence your happiness, actions and reactions. Your happiness and actions depend on them.

On the other hand, if you are able to stay detached, you will not be disturbed. You will stay calm. You will even be able to benefit from what they say. You will not waste hours thinking about their words.

Have you ever thought how much time and energy is wasted every day brooding on useless thoughts and feelings because of the lack of detachment? Much of the anger, frustration, unhappiness, disappointments and fights are due to lack of detachment.

One of the ways to develop detachment is through meditation. It is a gradual and automatic process. In meditation one endeavors not to follow the thoughts and feelings that rise. It is a time of a mental and emotional vacation. Meditating day after day develops the habit of staying cool and calm, not only during meditation, but also in all daily life.

If you practice any kind of meditation, sooner or later you will start to experience detachment. You will find that you feel and behave in a different way under circumstances that previously raised anger or agitation. You will find that you handle your daily affairs of life in a calm and relaxed way.

Real detachment means inner strength, and the ability to function calmly and with full inner control under all circumstances. A detached person is not harassed and hurried, and can do everything with concentration and attention, thus insuring a successful outcome of his actions.

mj
1-Feb-07

Hope for Today - December 20

.... Detaching with love was a behavior I assumed would never be part of my recovery, even though I knew my resentment over having an alcoholic parent was destroying me. In spite of the negative effects of my bitterness, I couldn't imagine living without it. Without resentments, who would I be? .... When I finally became tired of hurting, Al-Anon offered me tools to incorporate into my life. Listening to others share in meetings, reading Al- Anon literature, becoming involved in service, and attending Al-Anon workshops and conventions lent me a new perspective. This outlook gave me the opportunity to become a different and better person, one who enjoyed the serenity of acceptance. Simply put, I slowly came to the realization that my alcoholic parent had been incapable of meeting my particular expectations. In his own way and to the extent of his abilities, he had provided me with love, life's necessities, and support in all my endeavors. Finally, instead of seeing a completely empty glass, I saw that my glass was partially full. I realized that my growing up years could have been so much worse than they were. .... My father's recent death showed me that, at some point, I began loving him with detachment. A sense of release washed over me as I realized I had let go of the bitterness and resentment I once thought was permanent. In their place I have a new- found sense of freedom from resentments and hope for the future.

Thought for the Day ..... What role do my expectations as a child play in my difficulties as an adult?

.... .... "Relationships distorted by alcoholism and its .... .... effects on the drinker and on us are not healed .... .... overnight. It is not wise to expect too much too .... .... quickly." ..... ..... ..... *This is Al-Anon*, p. 9

mj
1-Feb-07

Good night

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

I'm back. Had to play a round of Bomb It w/ my daughter. Our thing right before she goes to bed.

Good evening MJ, Bevdee, Army.

Army, you said a couple things I'd like to touch on.

"I excessively worry about H.... I just want him to me me like his wife, I want to be respected. I want him to do family things with us. Spend time as a family."

I always wanted that too but ya know I have raised 3 kids on my own w/n the bonds of marriage. There is no reason for them to be absentee fathers/husbands other than they just want to. We cannot change them, but we can have as full a family as we can w/o them. It is hard and I still try to instill to him he needs to at least be a part. But ya know ArmY; One day they will wake up and it will have all passed him by and then who will be the sorry one.

"I can't place him in God's hands because he doesn't believe, in him...and I know I'm suppose to place the problem in his hands, but it's hard, I'm scared to let go, I don't know why!!!"

Yes, you can place him in God's hands. Let me share this w/ you. My evil x had a BAD crash and they said he would not live. I didn't the Christian thing and did pray for him. He lived. I hated myself coz I prayed and God answered my prayer. I have prayed for my evil x for so many years I cannot remember how long. I DON"T want to but God says to so I do. The evil x even had the balls to tell me that someday he wants a Christian home like we have here. I was waiting for God to strike him w/ lightening but so far not yet. Point is tho that if you believe you are to pray for him then do so. YOU will receive blessings for that.

You do what you feel you need to do. We will all be here for you no matter what. I promise you I will be. (((holding you close)))

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

MJ: Wonderful information, thank you.

Anybody else still here or am I it?

bevdee
1-Feb-07

I'm here, MamaC.

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

HI Bevdee:

I didn't know whether to stay or go. What's your say? Anything you'd like to talk about?

bevdee
1-Feb-07

I am just reading you. I'm not saying this to open a wormy can, but the HP and all? I don't think my views on that should be contributed, know what I mean?

So I'm hanging back.

bevdee
1-Feb-07

Well I had kind of a fine moment tonight- I posted it on my sister thread, but I will paste it over.

It has made me feel real -- I dunno--sassy. Hold on............

bevdee
1-Feb-07

I have had a phone call. Since my wretched xmas with my family, I have had no contact with them.

My mother called me tonight to tell me that next week she will be going to get my sister and move her down to live with her. The foreclosure on her house is final next week.

My mother talked for over an hour about all the plans she is making for my sissy - her rehab, etc. Then she came to the point of the call. She wants me to let my daddy and his wife know.

My sister avoids my daddy's calls, never writes, etc. I believe this is because she is embarassed by her lifestyle - oh who knows? After 3 years of having his calls ignored, Daddy doesn't call her anymore.

So- I was always put in the middle of this - no-talking way they have of communicating. He would ask me if I have heard from Sissy or Mom, and I would tell him what I had heard from Mom, who had heard this from one of the nieces, or my sister - mercifulgod!! What a grapevine.

I told my mother I was not going to be the go-between anymore, but I would be happy to give her Daddy's phone #. She said'"Oh, I have it somewhere- it's in the phonebook, isn't it?"

These people kill me.

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

Ok holding.

Bevdee, if you'd like to talk about your views on your HP then that is ok. We all have differing views and I'm not one to say one is better than or right or wrong. In fact, I'm gonna be brave and post on the new thread knowing I will get bashed, but I just have the urge to do so.

bevdee
1-Feb-07

I see that I did this messenger girl thing to please everyone, my mom and daddy. Because they think after 34 years they can't speak to each other!!

Oh, but there were things I "could" tell daddy and things I couldn't. Then when I talked to my mother, she would ask me what HE said.

It was uncomfortable, and I am glad to be done with it.

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

(((Bevdee)))

Doesn't that make you just want to spit.

Families can be such a pain and they suck you into their dysfunction the best way they know how.

My mom and sister... same thing. My sister says "I don't want mom going w/ me". Mom says "I don't want to go w/ your sister". Now wouldn't that be easy to deal w/ since hey ultimately want the same thing? I finally came to the point i told them IF they were not gonna stand on what they said to let me out of it. I thought it... ummm... stupid to begin w/.

Good for you for standing up for yourself.

bevdee
1-Feb-07

Yes it is way past uncomfortable being put in the middle AND trying to please everyone.

I am going to try to avoid this from now on.

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

I wish you strength. You hold your head high and say "sorry, not me, not today".

bevdee
1-Feb-07

This HP - this was an excuse I told myself in getting stuck before. I am going to think on this even more.

I just don't want to clutter up the discussion with my views. There are plenty of other threads for that.

Did you get snow, Miss MamaC?

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

Oh yes we did. Still have the ice from before and then more ice, then more snow, and just got a fresh inch or so last night. I cannot remember when we have had such a white winter it's been so long. I love snow.

I did a picture for my dad and he stopped by to pick it up tonight. My shoes were all wet from the snow before so I just slid on out in my sock feet. Not far and I kept warm.

Do you live where there is snow? I'm in Missouri

bevdee
1-Feb-07

I am in Texas. I grew up in SW MO. In the big town. My parents are still there.

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

Oh, I am in a small town of just over 1,000. We actually made it over the 1,000 mark. lol. I grew up here and it's a first. We always said the town is one mile long and half a mile wide. i think that is pretty accurate. But we do sit on two states and three counties.

Oh my, w/ a town as messed up as this no wonder everyone is dysfunctional. (j/k)

I am sorry to say I have not had the pleasure of Texas in many years. My brother lived there a few years and liked it.

We are taking my youngest to see the ocean this next year for her birthday. Been saving for a long time. Hubby wants to take her to Texas to the Gulf. i told him it IS NOT the ocean in a child's eyes. May be the same water, but not the same name.

🙂

bevdee
1-Feb-07

Corpus Christi!! Or Galveston!! I love Galveston. Your girl needs to look out and know that Europe is at the end of the water.

I guess the discussion has petered out. I need to get to bed - I am back on days tomorrow.

Have a nice night sweetie.

mamacinnamon
1-Feb-07

Good night hon. Have a good day tomorrow.

armyleo
2-Feb-07

Sorry I missed tonights study, I'll catch up read and comment. Thanks everyone for showing up...

mamacinnamon
2-Feb-07

Hey Armyangel.. I'm still around if you'd like to talk. If not then that's ok too.

armyleo
2-Feb-07

I'm having a problem understanding something about detachment.

If we detach mentally, emotionally, from a problem or person. Know we can't solve the problem. Isn't this like being shelfish...Almost like not caring.

Isn't detachment like the silent treatment? I don't think I can do that.

How can a person develop faith in themself and other people? Isn't faith like trust? Been burned so I'm scared to be burned again?

mj - "Detaching with love was a behavior I assumed would never be part of my recovery, even though I knew my resentment over having an alcoholic parent was destroying me. In spite of the negative effects of my bitterness, I couldn't imagine living without it. Without resentments, who would I be?"

Did you write this or is this from an article? How does one begin to realize the anger/hurt bitterness, especially when someone like me has sooo many layers. and probably layers I haven't even discovered, if I just realized all this within the last 2-3 months?

Oh, got this lump in my throat again...but can't let go yet...

mamacinnamon
2-Feb-07

Army:

Maybe in a way detachment is selfish. It is saying that I cannot fix you. it is saying that I will no longer make myself responsible for your problems. it is kinda like tough love in a way. What it does is make the person accountable for their own actions. Does that mean you don't love them? NO. Does that mean you are abandoning them? NO. it simply means you are not gonna try to fix the problem, intervene, or take the blame for someone else's actions. Make sense?

armyleo
2-Feb-07

bear with me here...

If I don't try and fix the problem and make things better, and detach, isn't that making my problems worse?

Let's say, H is being his usual self, like this week, not talking, silent treat, doesn't tell me what his schedule is or what he is doing. My detaching is going to make things worse. We don't speak as it is, I feel horrible me detaching, is only going to make me feel guilty, because I'm going to feel like i'm the one who is causing this.

mamacinnamon
2-Feb-07

Here is an example... My son did drugs. I put of $6,000, my life savings, yes, we are not wealthy, to put him thru rehab. I gladly did it to help him. But I told him.. you go back to drugs and I will not put you thru rehab again, I will not bail you out of jail, I will not give you money for anything. So, my son has decided to do drugs on the weekend on occasion, not every so he says, and I must follow thru.

I am not gonna fix him, I am not gonna intervene, I am not gonna take the blame coz I know I did my part to be a good mom.

OK, hubby belittles you. Will that stop, no, it just won't make you fall apart anymore; eventually. He doesn't talk now so what will the difference be? He doesn't tell you his schedule now or what he is doing. So you will no longer run after him w/ the calendar saying "what? when? huh?"

You are going to find things you like to do without him. This is a very hard one for me and I've still not done well at it, but I do try. How can you feel you are the cause when he is doing these things anyway? Nothing will be different other than you will not be falling apart and running around trying to find out and fix. You will be more calm. You may even find yourself happier when the peace sets in. You may find the girls might wantto be around you more if you are not upset. Chances are even good that hubby will notice a difference and if you are not pursueing him then he may decide to pursue you.

My hubby did psyops in the Army. I know the head games. So every once in awhle I will treat him as he treats me. Oh my gosh you'd think I were frankenstein or had pushed the nuke button myself. I just look at him and say "this is what you do to me; like it?" the end. He usually wants to fight then, but I just go do my thing. And you may find hubby doing this to you. He will, I promise you this, HE WILL get worse before he gets better. He is comfy in his world of abuse. You heal anld he'll not have you to abuse anymore. You will then be a person to him and not a puppy dog to kick.

Make sense?

armyleo
2-Feb-07

Yes, makes sense.

I think H plays games with me also, just when I think I can read him, and what he is doing he changes tactics. And sometimes I get angry, and he turns it around, like it's me who is crazy...But how do I stop from reacting? I'm not strong like the rest of you.

I guess I'm scared, to start doing things I like..Scared he won't approve and get mad. He gets mad because I read, because I knit, because I'm on the computer...What does he want, me to be on my hands and knees all day cleaning??? I guess I use to do things I liked earlier in my marriage and then slowly I guess I started to let go of what I liked, because he didn't approve or like. But back then, I was able to take more, and not let it bother me, I don't know what's happened....

I guess I became co-depedent.

mamacinnamon
2-Feb-07

Oh honey, we did not stop reacting just one day and that was it. As Free calls it. It is a journey. You will get bold and then he'll "put you in your place" and you'll wonder why you did it. But then you'll get a sense of Wow see what I did and you will want to do it again. it is a process that takes time.

Scared is understandable. Are we not all afraid of changing?

In your time. Just remember this will be done in your time when you are ready

mamacinnamon
2-Feb-07

Army: I need to go now. I am fading away fast and hubby will be home soon. Let's resume tomorrow ok. Try to get some sleep.

mj
2-Feb-07

Its from a meditation book, Hope for Today.

mj
2-Feb-07

Just wanted to let you know that I am done with Thurs. nights. Its no fun waiting 1/2 hr for people or not being talked to. I have more important things I can do with my time.

bevdee
2-Feb-07

MJ

Last night's meeting was kind of fragmented, wasn't it? I think Army said she had unexpected company and MamaC stated her daughter called her away, and I kept getting phone calls.

I like that we have a week for each chapter. That way we and others that can't physically be at the pc at the time of the meeting can have an easier time of finding the material covered, and can go back later and think over what has already been discussed. Sometimes it just doesn't work out for everyone at the same time.

mamacinnamon
2-Feb-07

MJ:

I am truly sorry you feel ignored. Yes, last night was a messed up night. I looked back and to be honest w/ you... You state things so very well and I agree w/ what you say. I look to your posts for guidance. I think/thought you were bein included. Not a lot of room left for debate when you state things as well as you do.

Please do stay. You are a big asset to this study. You provide such good material and examples. I look at the words you write and it helps me get thru my week.

Anyway, again sorry you feel this way. Please do reconsider.

mj
2-Feb-07

The week before the study didn't happen until 8:15. In my world, 15 minutes is professional courtesy. I was frusturated last week as well but decided to let it go. This week felt like a repeat as well. I plan time to make it to meetings, and online meetings, and plan for this book study too. I was committed to this. Now, I am not. I don't like feeling what I am feeling so I am taking positive action for myself. SC suggested that we just post the thread. It seemed like everyone started posting during the week too. So I am a little confused by what was decided. It appeared that the meetings were going to happen. I feel a little left out because I don't have a few hours to invest in a meeting. I hope all of you continue to reap the rewards of the book study. I prefer to continue taking care of myself and reading and remaining not frusturated.

mj
2-Feb-07

Hi Mamacinnamon, I am sorry that we cross posted. I responded before you wrote that. Thank you for the compliment about me being an asset. I didn't know you thought that until now.

mamacinnamon
2-Feb-07

MJ:

I wouldn't have said it had I not thought so. You are a tremendous asset to this site in my opinion, I know I can always count on you to give good advice and also have a loving shoulder to cry on if needed. I am sad you are leaving the book study, but you do what is best for you. I have had my days all messed up and on the last 3 Wednesdays thought it Thursday and posted early. I don't know why my time is messed up like that but it happens.

If you would.. I know this is a bit much to ask, but I am gonna anyway. If you continue w/ the book on your own would you mind posting your thoughts? I benefit from them greatly as I think Army and Bevdee do also. If you cannot I understand.

🙂

armyleo
2-Feb-07

Hi MJ,

I'm sorry you feel left out...

I think the way we did the book study worked well the first week. Where we started posting our thoughts to the questions on Thursday and then it continued throughout the week, for everyone who couldn't join...Versus, everyone posting before and then, it's all kind of already said by Thursday...

However, that doesn't solve the problem of you being on, and the rest of us being late.

I hope you continue to post because you bring a wealth of information with you...Everyone brings in a unique part of themselves...

armyleo
2-Feb-07

I was reading another post that Shaney and Bev were discussing...

Shaney said "...and viewed everyone else who didn't seem to have that control, as toooooo weak and emotional"

I guess this has to do with detaching, If I'm detaching and not in control, then am I weak? I guess that is what I have been scared of...If I let go, lose the control...Will I appear weak.

I guess because of how I have felt, that my parents abandonded me, even if they really didn't I guess...I have always controled, my emotions, since I was young so as not to appear weak, I wanted to appear, like I could go on and didn't need anyone...Then with H, I do the same thing...

bevdee
2-Feb-07

Hey Army

"I guess this has to do with detaching, If I'm detaching and not in control, then am I weak?"

Oh Army. I think this is strength. And wisdom. It's hard for me to figure out detachment - total detachment (no contact). and detachment with boundaries. I believe the need to control stemmed from my insecurities.

armyleo
2-Feb-07

gg -

Missed you this week - are you doing okay?

mj
2-Feb-07

Hello,

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts as well. Thanks for letting me know that I am okay today just the way I am. Looking forward to reviewing the next Chapter and posting my thoughts also. I need a support network as much as anyone else and I don't like feeling upset. Today at my class no one was on time. I am thinking, Is this the way of the world?

bevdee
2-Feb-07

MJ

It might be!! I am not usually late, but some days I can barely get my stuff together to get out of the house!! I think it is a malady of the modern world - we all have too much going on!

Glad you are gonna hang out for a little while longer!!

mamacinnamon
2-Feb-07

MJ:

Is this the way of the world?

Ya know I used to be 20 minutes early for everything. Always have been 20 minutes early, my dad and mom insisted on it. Hubby was always 20 minutes late. Now we are pretty much on time. My sister, late for everything, even had to wait 2 hours for Christmas year before this. I think time is not a priority w/ folks anymore.

Lately I lose track of everything.. time, things, appts. Don't know why. I fret over bein late to things and would not have been late last night, but my cihld reminded me I had promised to play her a round of a game on the computer.

I'll try to do better next week and am very happy you are gonna stay.

mj
3-Feb-07

Thanks for understanding and your support. I am learning that instead of stuffing, I need to find a healthy outlet for expression of my feelings. I felt really uncomfortable with expressing my frusturation and did the norm which is withdraw. Thanks for not blowing me off yesterday and talking to me about not taking it personally. I have such negative self talk going on in my head. I will try to be less critical. I am critical of myself so I don't really notice that I do this with others as well. We are busier as a society these days. I don't usually have alot going on so I am always early. Thanks for sharing that point. I think I may learn compassion.

Love to All

armyleo
4-Feb-07

I've been thinking alot, the last chapter had me think about spiritual stuff and HP etc.

and free said something in another post that..."It seems people have three different parts to their being: the physical, the emotional, and the spiritual."

This chpt said "Visualize His hands gently and lovingly holding that person or willingly accepting that problem. Now, visualize His hands holding you."

I guess this is bothering me because, I've never had anyone to really hold, me gently and lovingly...My parents were never touchy feely...to this day we're not. And then if I'm honest, I don't think my husband was very affectionate, even when we first got married...I guess we would talk alot, but touchy feely, no...

So I guess I've always longed for a relationship like this from anyone, but at the same time it scares me.

I don't even know where I stand spiritually...Was raised catholic...but sort of left that...then around 1 year ago, I met this chaplin, who was a peace officer, and he was Christian, got me thinking about relationship with God, instead of religion...went to his church a couple of times, I would keep going maybe buts it's kind of far...people were huggy their but it was hard for me to do, although I wanted to...I guess I wanted to expierience the feeling of belonging and loving.

So i'm not sure where I am, or where I want to go with this...

mj
4-Feb-07

And that is okay! You are right where you are suppose to be in your recovery. You will find your answers!

I like hugs from safe people. I grew up with affection from my mom, sister, Aunts, one grandma, and I have experiences truly warm, loving hugs. I was able to share this with my daughters and now my grandchildren. For me, I can visualize a loving HP. Its an energy not a person. The hand holding is symbolic. The energy exists in my heart.

soprano2
5-Feb-07

Hello everyone!!!

Sorry I missed the study. I missed some good stuff on detachment.

I had someone explain detachment to me this way once, and it was really good advice.

Detachment is not pulling away from someone. Detachment is pulling away from someone's actions and reactions. This type of detachment teaches us that there is a big boundary line between what you do or say and how people act or react to what you do or what you say. It shows us that we do not have to be responsible for someone else's actions or reactions.

Now, as Armyleo says, it is very friggin' hard to do this. It is very easy to get emotional when someone is reacting in a way that we don't like, but it is possible.

A good example of this is:

Say you are in a relationship with someone who yells at you. Maybe not all of the time, but when you are having a conversation and it gets heated because you don't agree. What is the first thing that we want to do when someone yells at us? Of course, probably you are saying yell back. What if we decide to detach from the situation when the yelling starts. If there is only one person yelling, then there is no argument. If we yell back, then we are responsible for our not so good reactions. And usually the one person that is yelling feels like an idiot after a while. We choose not to react to what they are doing. Or, maybe we learn how to react in a healthy way no matter what.

That may be just saying: "I need to walk away right now before I say something I may not need." "I need a moment to collect my thoughts." "I understand how you feel, let me think about it." "Let's talk about this in a while."

These words may also cause a reaction, but we are not responsible for this reaction either. Does it look selfish? Yes, to someone who wants you to react to what they are saying. To others, it looks sensible. We don't let our kids yell at us (usually). Why do we let our husbands do it and get away with it.

It is a respect thing. And working on respect is always very difficult. Especially when someone is not used to giving you the respect that you deserve. But, if that person truly cares, they will learn that no matter what, they cannot get you to react to what they do.

It is a day by day and sometimes moment by moment thing--but I did it, and I did see a change (some strange looks at first, some poor words used at me, but when I stopped fighting, he knew that he couldn't get to me that way.)

And, Armyleo--I think that you do have this strength in you...you just need to find where you hid it.

s2

mj
5-Feb-07

Thanks for that Soprano!

armyleo
5-Feb-07

S2,

You touched on two things that I want to elaborate on...

"some poor words used at me,", sometimes my problem is that I'm too sentimental...He can say alot, and I seem to take alot...but when I want to talk serious with him, and I do have the chance, the words don't come, or they come all tumbled with tears, and then he hates, that, and tells me tears aren't going to move him...etc..but I don't cry for sympathy or for him to be moved, I guess the tears just come...does this make sense?

2nd it respect...I think when we've both said and done things...and respect is gone...after many years...it's hard find it from each other...

soprano2
5-Feb-07

For your first thing--

I know it sounds kind of corny, but have you ever tried writing a letter and just reading it? Sometimes when you do that you get your feelings out when you write it, so that you can just read it like you are reading a poem or a book. Maybe that way, the emotions won't be so fresh, and you can have some time alone to make sure you are choosing how you want to say things. I have done it before with other relationships, and it can be effective.

Second thing--

I know what it is like to have respect gone for so many years, and you are right, it is very hard for two different people to find it again. It takes a lot of work from both sides. But, sometimes when a person leads by example how to act, the other person can see a difference, and it all falls into line. Not every time does this happen, but at least that person would know without a shadow of a doubt that they tried their best.

I feel for you. We are alike with the sentimental and emotional thing.

hang in there.

mj
1-Mar-07

Fourth week

August 29, 2007
12:46 pm
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Tumbleweed8
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MamaC, Thankyou again. This is very helpful. I'm going to work on this for a while now. 🙂

August 31, 2007
11:35 am
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euqcaj
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I am just reading this chapter for the first time. I want to buy thiss book because for the first time I am seeing myself being described in print! It's a relief and a stark realization. But I am already beginning to look at things through different eyes!
Thank you!
Jacque 🙂

PS I wish I could spend more time writing but we are still working on this building, scrapping and painting. Hard work. I ache and my hands have arthritis,...but I do enjoy the painting. We are trying to beat the rain,...we are in the Pacific N.W. So that is what we are doing everyday! More later.
Love,
Jacque 🙂

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