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reprint of Codependent No More, Chapter 4
August 28, 2007
4:31 am
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mamacinnamon
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Thread Title: Codependent No More CHAPTER 4
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mamacinnamon
20-Jan-07

Chapter 4 is due January 25, Thursday.

Question to ponder: How do you feel about changing yourself? What do you think would happen if you began to change? Do you think you can change? Why or why not/ Talk about the answers to these questions.

Below are the characteristics of codependency. Go through the checklist in this chapter. Mark each characteristic w/ a 0 if it is never a problem for you. Mark the characteristic w/ a 1 if it is occasionally a problem. And mark it w/ a 2 if it is frequently a problem. Later, in another chapter, you will use this to establish goals. You may wish to use it now as a guide to the chapters you want to read.

CODEPENDENT CHARACTERISTICS

CARETAKING

Codependents may:

___ think and feel responsible for other people - for other peoples feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny. ___ feel anxiety, pity and guilt when other people have a problem. ___ feel compelled-almost forced-to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings. ___ feel angry when their help isn't effective. anticipate other people's needs. ___ wonder why others don't do the same for them. ___find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves. ___not know what they want and need or, if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important. ___ try to please others instead of themselves. ___find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to themselves. ___ feel safest when giving. ___ feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them. ___ feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them. ___ find themselves attracted to needy people. ___ find needy people attracted to them ___ feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help. ___ abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else. ___ over commit themselves ___ feel harried and pressured. ___ believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them. ___ blame others for the spot the codependents are in, ___ say other people make the codependents feel the way they do. ___ believe other people are making them crazy. ___ feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used. ___ find other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics.

LOW SELF WORTH

Codependents tend to: ___ come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families. ___deny their family was troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional. ___ blame themselves for everything. ___ pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel, look, act, and behave. ___get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize the codependents-something codependents regularly do to themselves. ___reject compliments or praise. ___get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation) ___ feel different from the rest of the world. ___think they're not quite good enough. ___ feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves. ___ fear rejection. ___take things personally ___have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism. ___ feel like victims. ___tell themselves they can't do anything right. ___ be afraid of making mistakes. ___ wonder why they have a tough time making decisions. ___ expect themselves to do everything perfectly. ___ wonder why they can't get anything done to their satisfaction. ___ have a lot of "shoulds." ___ feel a lot of guilt. ___feel ashamed of who they are. __think their lives aren't worth living. ___ try to help other people live their lives instead. ___ get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others. ___ get strong feelings of low self-worth-embarrassment, failure, etc. from other people's failures and problems. ___wish good things would happen to them. ___believe good things never will happen. ___believe they don't deserve good things and happiness. ___wish other people would like and love them. ___believe other people couldn't possibly like and love them. ___try to prove they're good enough for other people. ___ settle for being needed.

REPRESSION

Many codependents: ___ push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt. ___ become afraid to let themselves be who they are. ___ appear rigid and controlled.

OBSESSION

Codependents tend to: ___ feel terribly anxious about problems and people. ___ worry about the silliest things. ___ think and talk a lot about other people. ___ lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior. ___ worry. ___ never find answers. ___ check on people. ___ try to catch people in acts of misbehavior. ___ feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems. ___ abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something. ___ focus all their energy on other people and problems. ___ wonder why they never have any energy ___ wonder why they aren't get things done.

CONTROLLING

Many codependents: ___ have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment. ___ become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally. ___ don't see or deal with their fear of loss of control. ___ think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave. ___ try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination. ___ eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people's anger. ___ get frustrated and angry. ___ feel controlled by events and people.

DENIAL

Codependents tend to: ___ ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening. ___ pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are. ___ tell themselves things will be better tomorrow. ___ stay busy so they don't have to think about things. ___ get confused. ___ get depressed or sick. ___ go to doctors and get tranquilizers. ___ become workaholics. ___ spend money compulsively. ___ overeat. ___ pretend those things aren't happening, either. ___ watch problems get worse. ___ believe lies. ___ lie to themselves. ___ wonder why they feel like they're going crazy.

DEPENDENCY

Many codependents: ___ don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves. ___ look for happiness outside themselves. ___ latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness. ___ feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think. ___ provides their happiness. ___ didn't feel love and approval from their parents. ___ don't love themselves. ___ believe other people can't or don't love them. ___ desperately seek love and approval. ___ often seek love from people incapable of loving. ___ believe other people are never there for them. ___ equate love with pain. ___ feel they need people more than they want them. ___ try to prove they're good enough to be loved. ___ don't take time to see if other people are good for them. ___ worry whether other people love or like them. ___ don't take time to figure out if they love or like other people. ___ center their lives around other people. ___ look to relationships to provide all their good feelings. ___ lose interest in their own lives when they love. ___ worry other people will leave them. ___ don't believe they can take care of themselves. ___ stay in relationships that don't work. ___ tolerate abuse to keep people loving them. ___ feel trapped in relationships. ___ leave bad relationships and form new ones that don't work either. ___ wonder if they will ever find love.

POOR COMMUNICATION

Codependents frequently: ___ blame. ___ threaten. ___ coerce. ___ beg. ___ bribe. ___ advise. ___ don't say what they mean. ___ don't mean what they say. ___ don't know what they mean. ___ don't take themselves seriously. ___ think other people don't take the codependents seriously. ___ take themselves too seriously. ___ ask for what they want and need indirectly-sighing, for example. ___ find it difficult to get to the point. ___ aren't sure what the point is. ___ gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect. ___ try to say what they think will please people. ___ try to say what they think will provoke people. ___ try to say what they hope will make people do what they want them to do. ___ eliminate the word no from their vocabulary. ___ talk too much. ___ talk about other people. ___ avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts. ___ say everything is their fault. • say nothing is their fault. ___ believe their opinions don't matter. ___ wait to express their opinions until they know other people's opinions. ___ lie to protect and cover up for people they love. ___ lie to protect themselves. ___ have a difficult time asserting their rights. ___ have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately. ___ think most of what they have to say is unimportant. ___ begin to talk in cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways. ___ apologize for bothering people.

WEAK BOUNDARIES

C-dependents frequently: ___ say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people. ___ gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things ___ they said they never would. ___ let others hurt them. ___ keep letting people hurt them. ___ wonder why they hurt so badly. ___ complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there. ___ finally get angry. ___ become totally intolerant.

LACK Of TRUST

Codependents: ___don't trust themselves. ___ don't trust their feelings. ___ don't trust their decisions. ___ don't trust other people. ___ try to trust untrustworthy people. ___ think God has abandoned them. ___ lose faith and trust in God.

ANGER

Many codependents: ___ feel very scared, hurt, and angry. ___ live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry. ___ are afraid of their own anger. ___ are frightened of other people's anger. ___ think people will go away if anger enters the picture. ___ think other people make them feel angry. ___ are afraid to make other people feel anger. ___ feel controlled by other people's anger. ___ repress their angry feelings. ___ cry a lot, get depressed, overeat, get sick, do mean and nasty things ___ to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts. ___ punish other people for making the codependents angry. ___ have been shamed for feeling angry. ___ place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry. ___ feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness. ___ feel safer with their anger than with hurt feelings. ___ wonder if they'll ever not be angry.

SEX PROBLEMS

Some codependents: ___ are caretakers in the bedroom. ___ have sex when they don't want to. ___ have sex when they'd rather be held, nurtured, and loved. ¬¬¬___ try to have sex when they're angry or hurt. ___ refuse to enjoy sex because they're so angry at their partner. ____ are afraid of losing control. ___ have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed. ____ withdraw emotionally from their partner. ____ feel sexual revulsion toward their partner. ___ don't talk about it. ___ force themselves to have sex, anyway. ___ reduce sex to a technical act. ___ wonder why they don't enjoy sex. ___ lose interest in sex. ___ make up reasons to abstain. ___ wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the ___ codependent's feelings. ___ have strong sexual fantasies about other people. ___ consider or have an extramarital affair.

MISCELLANEOUS

Codependents tend to: ___ be extremely responsible. ___ be extremely irresponsible. ___ become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don't require sacrifice. ___ find it difficult to feel close to people. ___ find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous. ___ have an overall passive response to codependency-crying, hurt, helplessness. ___ have an overall aggressive response to codependency-violence, anger, dominance. ___ combine passive and aggressive responses. ___ vacillate in decisions and emotions. ___ laugh when they feel like crying. ___ stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts. ___ be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems. ___ be confused about the nature of the problem. ___ cover up, lie, and protect the problem. ___ not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn't bad enough, or they aren't important enough. ___ wonder why the problem doesn't go away.

PROGRESSIVE

In the later, stages of codependency, codependents may: ___ feel lethargic. ___ feel depressed. ___ become withdrawn and isolated. ___ experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure. ___ abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities. ___ feel hopeless. ___ begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in. ___ think about suicide. ___ become violent. ___ become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill. ___ experience an eating disorder (over- or under eating). ___ become addicted to alcohol and other drugs.

kroika
20-Jan-07

Hi MamaC

Nice to see the book study group coming along.

Here is a HTML formatting tip I learned about inserting a line break [br].
I will show with square brackets[br] but you need to use the diamond brackets < to make it work. CODEPENDENT CHARACTERISTICS CARETAKING Codependents may: ___ think and feel responsible for other people - for other peoples feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny.[br] ___ feel anxiety, pity and guilt when other people have a problem.[br] ___ feel compelled-almost forced-to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings.[br] etc. ___ feel angry when their help isn't effective. anticipate other people's needs. ___ wonder why others don't do the same for them. ___find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves. ___not know what they want and need or, if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important. ___ try to please others instead of themselves. ___find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to themselves. ___ feel safest when giving. ___ feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them. ___ feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them. ___ find themselves attracted to needy people. ___ find needy people attracted to them ___ feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help. ___ abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else. ___ over commit themselves ___ feel harried and pressured. ___ believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them. ___ blame others for the spot the codependents are in, ___ say other people make the codependents feel the way they do. ___ believe other people are making them crazy. ___ feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used. ___ find other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics. kroika 20-Jan-07 LOW SELF WORTH Codependents tend to: ___ come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families. ___deny their family was troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional. ___ blame themselves for everything. ___ pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel, look, act, and behave. ___get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize the codependents-something codependents regularly do to themselves. ___reject compliments or praise. ___get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation) ___ feel different from the rest of the world. ___think they're not quite good enough. ___ feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves. ___ fear rejection. ___take things personally ___have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism. ___ feel like victims. ___tell themselves they can't do anything right. ___ be afraid of making mistakes. ___ wonder why they have a tough time making decisions. ___ expect themselves to do everything perfectly. ___ wonder why they can't get anything done to their satisfaction. ___ have a lot of "shoulds." ___ feel a lot of guilt. ___feel ashamed of who they are. __think their lives aren't worth living. ___ try to help other people live their lives instead. ___ get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others. ___ get strong feelings of low self-worth-embarrassment, failure, etc. from other people's failures and problems. ___wish good things would happen to them. ___believe good things never will happen. ___believe they don't deserve good things and happiness. ___wish other people would like and love them. ___believe other people couldn't possibly like and love them. ___try to prove they're good enough for other people. ___ settle for being needed. REPRESSION Many codependents: ___ push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt. ___ become afraid to let themselves be who they are. ___ appear rigid and controlled. OBSESSION Codependents tend to: ___ feel terribly anxious about problems and people. ___ worry about the silliest things. ___ think and talk a lot about other people. ___ lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior. ___ worry. ___ never find answers. ___ check on people. ___ try to catch people in acts of misbehavior. ___ feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems. ___ abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something. ___ focus all their energy on other people and problems. ___ wonder why they never have any energy ___ wonder why they aren't get things done. CONTROLLING Many codependents: ___ have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment. ___ become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally. ___ don't see or deal with their fear of loss of control. ___ think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave. ___ try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination. ___ eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people's anger. ___ get frustrated and angry. ___ feel controlled by events and people. DENIAL Codependents tend to: ___ ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening. ___ pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are. ___ tell themselves things will be better tomorrow. ___ stay busy so they don't have to think about things. ___ get confused. ___ get depressed or sick. ___ go to doctors and get tranquilizers. ___ become workaholics. ___ spend money compulsively. ___ overeat. ___ pretend those things aren't happening, either. ___ watch problems get worse. ___ believe lies. ___ lie to themselves. ___ wonder why they feel like they're going crazy. DEPENDENCY Many codependents: ___ don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves. ___ look for happiness outside themselves. ___ latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness. ___ feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think. ___ provides their happiness. ___ didn't feel love and approval from their parents. ___ don't love themselves. ___ believe other people can't or don't love them. ___ desperately seek love and approval. ___ often seek love from people incapable of loving. ___ believe other people are never there for them. ___ equate love with pain. ___ feel they need people more than they want them. ___ try to prove they're good enough to be loved. ___ don't take time to see if other people are good for them. ___ worry whether other people love or like them. ___ don't take time to figure out if they love or like other people. ___ center their lives around other people. ___ look to relationships to provide all their good feelings. ___ lose interest in their own lives when they love. ___ worry other people will leave them. ___ don't believe they can take care of themselves. ___ stay in relationships that don't work. ___ tolerate abuse to keep people loving them. ___ feel trapped in relationships. ___ leave bad relationships and form new ones that don't work either. ___ wonder if they will ever find love. POOR COMMUNICATION Codependents frequently: ___ blame. ___ threaten. ___ coerce. ___ beg. ___ bribe. ___ advise. ___ don't say what they mean. ___ don't mean what they say. ___ don't know what they mean. ___ don't take themselves seriously. ___ think other people don't take the codependents seriously. ___ take themselves too seriously. ___ ask for what they want and need indirectly-sighing, for example. ___ find it difficult to get to the point. ___ aren't sure what the point is. ___ gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect. ___ try to say what they think will please people. ___ try to say what they think will provoke people. ___ try to say what they hope will make people do what they want them to do. ___ eliminate the word no from their vocabulary. ___ talk too much. ___ talk about other people. ___ avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts. ___ say everything is their fault. ___ say nothing is their fault. ___ believe their opinions don't matter. ___ wait to express their opinions until they know other people's opinions. ___ lie to protect and cover up for people they love. ___ lie to protect themselves. ___ have a difficult time asserting their rights. ___ have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately. ___ think most of what they have to say is unimportant. ___ begin to talk in cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways. ___ apologize for bothering people. WEAK BOUNDARIES C-dependents frequently: ___ say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people. ___ gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they never would. ___ let others hurt them. ___ keep letting people hurt them. ___ wonder why they hurt so badly. ___ complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there. ___ finally get angry. ___ become totally intolerant. LACK Of TRUST Codependents: ___don't trust themselves. ___ don't trust their feelings. ___ don't trust their decisions. ___ don't trust other people. ___ try to trust untrustworthy people. ___ think God has abandoned them. ___ lose faith and trust in God. ANGER Many codependents: ___ feel very scared, hurt, and angry. ___ live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry. ___ are afraid of their own anger. ___ are frightened of other people's anger. ___ think people will go away if anger enters the picture. ___ think other people make them feel angry. ___ are afraid to make other people feel anger. ___ feel controlled by other people's anger. ___ repress their angry feelings. ___ cry a lot, get depressed, overeat, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts. ___ punish other people for making the codependents angry. ___ have been shamed for feeling angry. ___ place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry. ___ feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness. ___ feel safer with their anger than with hurt feelings. ___ wonder if they'll ever not be angry. SEX PROBLEMS Some codependents: ___ are caretakers in the bedroom. ___ have sex when they don't want to. ___ have sex when they'd rather be held, nurtured, and loved. ___ try to have sex when they're angry or hurt. ___ refuse to enjoy sex because they're so angry at their partner. ____ are afraid of losing control. ___ have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed. ____ withdraw emotionally from their partner. ____ feel sexual revulsion toward their partner. ___ don't talk about it. ___ force themselves to have sex, anyway. ___ reduce sex to a technical act. ___ wonder why they don't enjoy sex. ___ lose interest in sex. ___ make up reasons to abstain. ___ wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the codependent's feelings. ___ have strong sexual fantasies about other people. ___ consider or have an extramarital affair. MISCELLANEOUS Codependents tend to: ___ be extremely responsible. ___ be extremely irresponsible. ___ become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don't require sacrifice. ___ find it difficult to feel close to people. ___ find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous. ___ have an overall passive response to codependency-crying, hurt, helplessness. ___ have an overall aggressive response to codependency - violence, anger, dominance. ___ combine passive and aggressive responses. ___ vacillate in decisions and emotions. ___ laugh when they feel like crying. ___ stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts. ___ be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems. ___ be confused about the nature of the problem. ___ cover up, lie, and protect the problem. ___ not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn't bad enough, or they aren't important enough. ___ wonder why the problem doesn't go away. PROGRESSIVE In the later, stages of codependency, codependents may: ___ feel lethargic. ___ feel depressed. ___ become withdrawn and isolated. ___ experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure. ___ abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities. ___ feel hopeless. ___ begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in. ___ think about suicide. ___ become violent. ___ become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill. ___ experience an eating disorder (over- or under eating). ___ become addicted to alcohol and other drugs. mamacinnamon 20-Jan-07 kroika... thank you, thank you. I didn't want to double space everything and it turn into a long ordeal and I didn't know how to do that. I'll practice and know how from now on. You are truly a blessing to me today. Muah. You're the best. Ok, so this day has been a rough one. __I remembered cakes an hour before they were due, but had 2 hours to finish. __Then hubby thought he needed attention. __Oh, I pray this works for me. mamacinnamon 20-Jan-07 OH YEA it works. THANK YOU Kroika To be honest, what I do know I learned from my daugher and Jigs This is just way to cool. Oh happy night. kroika 21-Jan-07 glad to be of help! It isn't *always* codep to lend a hand, eh?! :o) Another time-saver is to copy the [br] and then just keep pasting it in wherever you need it. There's probably an even easier way, but I am pretty much a techno-peasant, and rather pleased at the few little tricks I have managed to discover! hugs to you and carry on! love, kroika soprano2 21-Jan-07 Looks good, ladies. Glad to see the teamwork. Looking forward to all the posts on this thread. Just to let everyone know, you do'nt have to wait until Thursday to post on here. You can feel free to post whenever you like. There is a group of people who will be posting on Thursday evening 10:30 est (you all can figure out the rest of the times). It is a great experience if you can make it. If not, feel free to post whenever you have a moment and share your thoughts and ideas. Looking forward to reading and sharing with everyone this upcoming week. s2 mamacinnamon 21-Jan-07 Thank you S2 for lettin folks know that. Is that something I should print w/ each lesson? Please do let me know. I am having a little problem w/ my list. Do I put what i was then or who I am now or both? It makes a total complete difference which way it looks. lol. I choose the good looks, but I want to be honest. thewall 21-Jan-07 Good questions......... Can people change? Only if they want to, and only when they are aware that something needs to change. There are times when we can be miserable and still not want to change. This is probably due to fear. There is some sort of comfort, unconsciously, of how we are, even though it does bring us pain. I for one need to change my need to help others. It brings me pleasure to be so helpful and so nice. Yet at times I am the one who gets hurt and potentially my life can become chaotic when I help someone who only wants to take from me. It can be heartbreaking to be so helpful and yet continue to get used. Personally I am sick of it and fear trusting any friends again. But I dont know if I am ready to change my helpfulness. Does helping someone mean you are co dependant every time you help them? I guess thats what I dont want to give up. I enjoy helping others. Its actually my profession too. How do you know when helping is being codependant or just being a friend? My favorite saying is "Nothing changes until the pain of staying the same, becomes more than the pain of changing". I guess thats where I am right now. Its like "whew, got out of that situation. Now I wont ever do that again." but then months later I find myself right back in a similar situation....helping someone at almost any price. Problem is, there are way too many creeps out there who will use and abuse you at the snap of a finger and think nothing of it. I swear I dont know how they live with themselves but they do, seemingly with no problem. Makes me sick. soprano2 21-Jan-07 mama-- sometimes it is good to take a look at where you were versus where you are now. It is up to you if you want to share it. I think that it would be inspiring for those people who are on their way but not as far as you (I don't mean that as bluntly as it sounds--I know we are all on a different path, but hopefully you know what I mean.) Either way, I am looking forward to exploring this chapter sometime this week. s2 soprano2 21-Jan-07 the wall-- That's a great saying. I am going to steal it and put it everywhere I look as a reminder for my own situation. And, yes, the creeps come out of the walls sometime. Do you think that you are also a creep magnet? I used to think that I had "If you are a creep, come talk to me" tatooed on my forehead. Just a little light humor. I know how you feel thewall 22-Jan-07 soprano2, LOL yes I do think I have that tatoo. But on a more serious note, I do think manipulators sit back and watch us, looking for "a nice person", someone who doesnt make waves, someone who does things for others even when they have a ton of things to do, someone who just cant say no, no matter how much they should. And they look for people who has poor eye contact, who can't look them in the eye. And then, the go in for the kill..smoothly manipulating us til they know they have us. Manipulators "shop" for their victims, just as child molesters often do. They look for people who cant stand up for themselves, they look for people who have very little support from family or friends, they look for people who dont have a whole lot of money to pay for atty fees if they should need it, they look for people who dont have a DR or ATTY or police officer in the family bc they know the risk of getting their butt kicked is too high. You would think that I would be able to see them coming a mile away by now, but unfortunately eventually some other smooth operator comes along and *bam* I am back to being overly nice, bending over backwards for them. I was watching Magnum PI reruns the other day (what a hottie--ok I'm old) and something he said really hit me.. he said "none of us are infallable at judging charecter." So true Magnum, so true.. ......If only HE would come and take me away to a far away Hawaiian island and save me from myself. *sigh* soprano2 22-Jan-07 I bet that we are around the same age, because I think that he is a hottie too. And I remember watching that show not in reruns. On your serious note, I agree with your shopping idea. I have been shopped. And boy, have I paid for it over the years. And, not only are people allowed to do this, the punishment for sever cases is very light. Ok, a restraining order, a protective order. Maybe a couple days in jail? That is what they get for severe cases. Not enough in my book. And we are left to pick up the pieces. Not to mention the not so severe ones. The ones that teeter on the abusive state. Or they know that if they hit you, they will get in trouble, so they just toy with your emotions--the scars are still very real, but harder to see. I know how you feel about escaping. Sometimes I feel like that everyday. mamacinnamon 22-Jan-07 NOTICE: Please refrain from posting exact context from the book. I thought the copyright rule pertained to chapters in their entirety, but it actually pertains to ANY material including lists. So, I boo boo'd and won't happen again. You may quote a line or so when discussing it but not lists or paragraphs or chapters. You can put which of the things pertain to you, but individually and not as this list. ie... In Misc I have a problem w/ this, this, and this. Do not reproduce the list. Thank ya'll. Just wanted you to know this for safety sake. w/love, mamaC soprano2 22-Jan-07 Mama-- actually the copyright protection law of 1972 allows you to copy 15% of the information as long as the information is not in order (like you can't type all of pages 1-4 and then leave the other 85% off.) I know this because I work with copyrighted stuff all of the time. So the list in its entirety is off limits, but you can focus on one part of the list a week or something like that. (You are doing a great job by the way.) s2 on my way 22-Jan-07 I am impressed, you all have gone really far! This is great! Can't you quote if you sight the author and the book and put things in quotes though? Like for example if I wanted to say, In Beverly Beattie's book "Codependent No More" she says on page 22 that, " ". I think this is legal isn't it? soprano2 22-Jan-07 That is the way that it is supposed to be done. That way, they are given the credit. Hopefully, everyone owns the book and can take a look at it. If not, I encourage everyone that is joining us to either purchase it, or check it out at the library. site coordinator 22-Jan-07 Hey Everybody, I send my apologies, but I truly don't want to become involved in a copyright dispute. 85%, 15%, whatever the case may be, it will eventually be copyright infringement if pages are posted at intervals. Please, let's not get into the nitty gritty of that. If you'd like to paraphrase, discuss, and point to a particular topic or page, that's excellent. But posting pages or even parts of a page (a paragraph or more), I would not like done on this site. Everyone who joins should have the book, and paraphrasing is a great learning tool. It makes you think, and it allows others to "check" your thinking/learning. Thanks, SC risingfromtheashes 22-Jan-07 maybe you guys can keep this book club going by saying that the partipants have the book, read chapter so and so...and come back for a discussion. then you can open a discussion regarding the stuff on page xyz and how it makes us all feel. then we can post our own thoughts, without copyright infringement. I think it would be wonderful to post quotes and stuff from the book, perhaps to prompt others to get the book after seeing how invaluable it is. but maybe just the discussions alone would get people thinking about buying it. I have it and will participate more as time allows. soprano2 22-Jan-07 didn't mean to start anything by my comments. Just am aware of the laws. Sorry. I don't want anyone to get into trouble either. s2 2rain 23-Jan-07 I really see a lot of these characteristics in myself. I'm going to counseling but they have not called me for an appoinment but twice in 3 months. in the mean time I've lost my job so I now have medicaid .me and my husband are trying to get help. thewall 23-Jan-07 Rain, You have to call to make your own appointment. I've never heard of a counseling office calling to make your appointments for you. Thats unhealthy, its like a mother taking care of a child. You are an adult now. Take your counseling scheduling into your own hands. Dont wait for them. You deserve the help you want and need. 🙂 mj 23-Jan-07 Today, I read Chapter 4. At the end is the Activities list. For the first time, I went through and placed a o, 1, 2 besides the characteristics I have. It was an interesting exercise. So for me, I have now identified the behaviors that cause me problems. Now it's figuring out what I want to do about it. Who's codependent? I am 🙂 How do I feel about changing myself? I am open to changing my behaviors that aren't helping me survive. I want to live! What do I think will happen if I began to change? Change takes practice. I am sure I will experience discomfort at becoming aware of these patterns that need changing. Acceptance that I possess these patterns. I won't do it perfectly. The old patterns of behavior are stronger because of repetitive use so I will need to keep practicing and changing a day at a time. Do I think I can change? Yes, I have the desire and the tools for change. mj 23-Jan-07 "Each person is responsible for him- or herself. It involves learning one new behavior that we will devote ourselves to: taking care of ourselves." I am going to practice letting go of "being frightened by other people's anger". I didn't cause it. I can't control it. I can't cure it. Others are entitled to their feelings. Feelings need to be expressed. My responsibility to myself is to have boundaries for myself. I can remove myself from others anger if lashed out at. I can listen to someone express anger without personalizing it. I can tell that person that I am uncomfortable with the way they are expressing their anger. I can affirm that anger is an emotion that does not have control over me. In the past, I didn't have options when my mother would direct her angry outbursts. As an adult, I can chose to feel my fear and try something different. armyleo 23-Jan-07 MJ – thanks for starting off, it gave me the nudge I needed to pick up the book again, I glanced at the chapter, but didn’t really read it. I like the point the author made…I kept skipping to the list of characteristics reading them feeling bad then shutting the book…I guess I took all the negatives personally and felt like I was a bad person. But after mj posted I went and read the beginning of the chapter instead of skipping to the characteristics. Reading the intro of the chapter she makes a very important point, that we (I) am not bad, that we do these things as a means to protect ourselves, to survive – emotionally, mentally and sometimes physically. Interesting, how our self preservation techniques, are now hurting us. It says the first step toward changing our self’s is awareness. I guess I am aware by reading so I’ve gotten this far. I don’t know about acceptance which is the second step. Does this mean I have to accept the list of characteristics, the lists of bad behaviors, which I posses? If I am being truly honest here. How do I feel about changing myself? For me it’s scary, because it’s like I don’t want to fail…I feel like I already have, yet a part of me wants to have peace, to love and be loved, to feel happy. What do you think will happen if you begin to change and do you think you can change? At work we use to do the same old same old, same people in jobs for years etc. Then we got bought out by a company. We re-organized, you should have seen the first re-org. Boy change was hard for everyone, everyone took it personal etc. All the employees from the company, just pushed back, it was hard to change the way everything was done for years. It affected both the folks from the new company folks just trying to help and make things better, and the existing company who kept pushing back, and having a bad attitude. Now it’s every 2 years, and were ready for a re-organization, because it means new faces, new processes, new attitude etc. Now we look at it as a better opportunity. Change is good, at least that how it is viewed at work. They don’t let people get stagnet, in one place, not good for employees, career etc. and not good for the company, need new ideas always changing for the better. Why did I bring it up… because I think for me, change will be hard, it will be hard changing my behaviors, I think I’m not disciplined enough to do this on my own. Can I change, well I guess if I put a lot of effort I can, but honestly I think subconsciously I will push back….Why? I think because new is scary, change is scary there is fear associated with it. I honestly don’t know what will happen if I change…I am just scared, because what I’ve done is all I know. And yes, some of the behaviors are not good….but it’s all I’ve ever known. Okay I will now go and write numbers next to characteristics.... mj 23-Jan-07 ((((Armyleo)))) You Can Do This! You just did!!!! artist girl 24-Jan-07 CARETAKING Codependents may: _1__ think and feel responsible for other people - for other peoples feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny.[br] _1__ feel anxiety, pity and guilt when other people have a problem.[br] _1__ feel compelled-almost forced-to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings.[br] soprano2 24-Jan-07 I see you are making good use of the book. So glad. Hope that you get some good insights. I remember when I first read it, I kept saying--"that sounds like me" or "that sounds like my situation." Happy reading and looking forward to seeing what you think. s2 artist girl 24-Jan-07 _1__ feel angry when their help isn't effective. _2__anticipate other people's needs. _1__ wonder why others don't do the same for them. _2__find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves. _1__not know what they want and need or, if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important. _1__ try to please others instead of themselves. _1__find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to themselves. _2__ feel safest when giving. _2__ feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them. _1__ feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them. _1__ find themselves attracted to needy people. _1__ find needy people attracted to them _1__ feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help. _2__ abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else. _1__ over commit themselves _2__ feel harried and pressured. _1__ believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them. _1__ blame others for the spot the codependents are in, _1__ say other people make the codependents feel the way they do. _1__ believe other people are making them crazy. _2__ feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used. _2__ find other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics. artist girl 24-Jan-07 LOW SELF WORTH Codependents tend to: _2__ come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families. _0__deny their family was troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional. _1__ blame themselves for everything. _1__ pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel, look, act, and behave. _2__get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize the codependents-something codependents regularly do to themselves. _1__reject compliments or praise. _0__get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation) _2__ feel different from the rest of the world. _2__think they're not quite good enough. _1__ feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves. _1__ fear rejection. _2__take things personally _2__have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism. _1__ feel like victims. _1__tell themselves they can't do anything right. _1__ be afraid of making mistakes. _1__ wonder why they have a tough time making decisions. _1__ expect themselves to do everything perfectly. _1__ wonder why they can't get anything done to their satisfaction. _1__ have a lot of "shoulds." _1__ feel a lot of guilt. _0__feel ashamed of who they are. _0_think their lives aren't worth living. _1__ try to help other people live their lives instead. _1__ get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others. _1__ get strong feelings of low self-worth-embarrassment, failure, etc. from other people's failures and problems. _2__wish good things would happen to them. _0__believe good things never will happen. _0__believe they don't deserve good things and happiness. _2__wish other people would like and love them. _1__believe other people couldn't possibly like and love them. _1__try to prove they're good enough for other people. _1__ settle for being needed. REPRESSION Many codependents: _1__ push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt. _1__ become afraid to let themselves be who they are. _1__ appear rigid and controlled. OBSESSION Codependents tend to: _2__ feel terribly anxious about problems and people. _1__ worry about the silliest things. _2__ think and talk a lot about other people. _2__ lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior. _2__ worry. _1__ never find answers. _1__ check on people. _0__ try to catch people in acts of misbehavior. _2__ feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems. _2__ abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something. _2__ focus all their energy on other people and problems. _1__ wonder why they never have any energy _2__ wonder why they aren't get things done. CONTROLLING Many codependents: _2__ have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment. _2__ become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally. _0__ don't see or deal with their fear of loss of control. _2__ think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave. _1__ try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination. _1__ eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people's anger. _2__ get frustrated and angry. _1__ feel controlled by events and people. DENIAL Codependents tend to: _1__ ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening. _1__ pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are. _1__ tell themselves things will be better tomorrow. _2__ stay busy so they don't have to think about things. _1__ get confused. _2__ get depressed or sick. _0__ go to doctors and get tranquilizers. _2__ become workaholics. _1__ spend money compulsively. _2__ overeat. _2__ pretend those things aren't happening, either. _2__ watch problems get worse. _1__ believe lies. _1__ lie to themselves. _1__ wonder why they feel like they're going crazy. DEPENDENCY Many codependents: _1__ don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves. _2__ look for happiness outside themselves. _2__ latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness. _2__ feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think provides their happiness. _2__ didn't feel love and approval from their parents. _1__ don't love themselves. _1__ believe other people can't or don't love them. _1__ desperately seek love and approval. _2__ often seek love from people incapable of loving. _1__ believe other people are never there for them. _2__ equate love with pain. _1__ feel they need people more than they want them. _2__ try to prove they're good enough to be loved. _2__ don't take time to see if other people are good for them. _1__ worry whether other people love or like them. _2__ don't take time to figure out if they love or like other people. _2__ center their lives around other people. _2__ look to relationships to provide all their good feelings. _1__ lose interest in their own lives when they love. _1__ worry other people will leave them. _0__ don't believe they can take care of themselves. _2__ stay in relationships that don't work. _2__ tolerate abuse to keep people loving them. _2__ feel trapped in relationships. _1__ leave bad relationships and form new ones that don't work either. _2__ wonder if they will ever find love. POOR COMMUNICATION Codependents frequently: _2__ blame. _1__ threaten. _0__ coerce. _2__ beg. _2__ bribe. _2__ advise. _2__ don't say what they mean. _2__ don't mean what they say. _0__ don't know what they mean. _1__ don't take themselves seriously. _1__ think other people don't take the codependents seriously. _0__ take themselves too seriously. _2__ ask for what they want and need indirectly-sighing, for example. _2__ find it difficult to get to the point. _2__ aren't sure what the point is. _2__ gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect. _2__ try to say what they think will please people. _2__ try to say what they think will provoke people. _2__ try to say what they hope will make people do what they want them to do. _1__ eliminate the word no from their vocabulary. _2__ talk too much. _2__ talk about other people. _2__ avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts. _1__ say everything is their fault. _1__ say nothing is their fault. _1__ believe their opinions don't matter. _1__ wait to express their opinions until they know other people's opinions. _1__ lie to protect and cover up for people they love. _0__ lie to protect themselves. _2__ have a difficult time asserting their rights. _2__ have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately. _1__ think most of what they have to say is unimportant. _1__ begin to talk in cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways. _2__ apologize for bothering people. WEAK BOUNDARIES C-dependents frequently: _0__ say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people. _1__ gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they never would. _1__ let others hurt them. _2__ keep letting people hurt them. _1__ wonder why they hurt so badly. _2__ complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there. _2__ finally get angry. _2__ become totally intolerant. LACK Of TRUST Codependents: _1__don't trust themselves. _1__ don't trust their feelings. _2__ don't trust their decisions. _1__ don't trust other people. _1__ try to trust untrustworthy people. _1__ think God has abandoned them. _1__ lose faith and trust in God. ANGER Many codependents: _2__ feel very scared, hurt, and angry. _2__ live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry. _2__ are afraid of their own anger. _2__ are frightened of other people's anger . _0__ think people will go away if anger enters the picture. _2__ think other people make them feel angry. _2__ are afraid to make other people feel anger. _2__ feel controlled by other people's anger. _1__ repress their angry feelings. _2__ cry a lot, get depressed, overeat, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts. _1__ punish other people for making the codependents angry. _2__ have been shamed for feeling angry. _2__ place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry. _2__ feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness. _1__ feel safer with their anger than with hurt feelings. _1__ wonder if they'll ever not be angry. SEX PROBLEMS Some codependents: _2__ are caretakers in the bedroom. _0__ have sex when they don't want to. _0__ have sex when they'd rather be held, nurtured, and loved. _0__ try to have sex when they're angry or hurt. _2__ refuse to enjoy sex because they're so angry at their partner. _0___ are afraid of losing control. _2__ have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed. _2___ withdraw emotionally from their partner. _2___ feel sexual revulsion toward their partner. _2__ don't talk about it. _0__ force themselves to have sex, anyway. _0__ reduce sex to a technical act. _2__ wonder why they don't enjoy sex. _2__ lose interest in sex. _2__ make up reasons to abstain. _2__ wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the codependent's feelings. _2__ have strong sexual fantasies about other people. _1__ consider or have an extramarital affair. MISCELLANEOUS Codependents tend to: _2__ be extremely responsible. _2__ be extremely irresponsible. _2__ become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don't require sacrifice. _0__ find it difficult to feel close to people. _0__ find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous. _0__ have an overall passive response to codependency-crying, hurt, helplessness. _2__ have an overall aggressive response to codependency - violence, anger, dominance. _2__ combine passive and aggressive responses. _2__ vacillate in decisions and emotions. _2__ laugh when they feel like crying. _2__ stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts. _2__ be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems. _2__ be confused about the nature of the problem. _1__ cover up, lie, and protect the problem. _1__ not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn't bad enough, or they aren't important enough. _1__ wonder why the problem doesn't go away. PROGRESSIVE In the later, stages of codependency, codependents may: _1__ feel lethargic. _1__ feel depressed. _1__ become withdrawn and isolated. _2__ experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure. _1__ abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities. _1__ feel hopeless. _2__ begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in. _0__ think about suicide. _0__ become violent. _1__ become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill. _2__ experience an eating disorder (over- or under eating). _0__ become addicted to alcohol and other drugs. artist girl 24-Jan-07 Yeeha! I did it. 🙂 If you don't have Codependent No More.... Check out NetLibrary.com This is where I am reading it...you have to keep signing it to read if you take a break, but hey my library didn't have a hard copy...so no problemo with this if you have the internet. 🙂 soprano2 24-Jan-07 Very proud of you. It is hard to do that list the first time I think. It takes a lot of soul searching and honesty for it to work right. I remember thinking when I finished doing the same thing that you did "Oh my God--I am really screwed up." I felt overwhelmed a little bit. But then I realized that if I continue working on some of these things little by little, eventually it won't be such a huge undertaking. Thanks for putting that website on here too. Hopefully that info will help other visitors as well. s2 artist girl 24-Jan-07 How do you feel about changing yourself? What do you think would happen if you began to change? Do you think you can change? I am excited to change myself because it is getting old an miserable and I want something else. It might be uncomfortable to change, but I think I will get used to being the new me as akward and stumbly as I might be at first. I do think I can change because I think about my answers years or months ago and know some of the answers would be different. So I have changed even if it is for better or for worse in some cases as my relationship with my husband has become worse and so have some of my thoughts, choices and feelings. mj 24-Jan-07 AG, YOU Rock! So what is the secret to loggin on? You continue to teach this old dog new tricks! Codependency affects families! The craziness we experience affects all of our relationships. I was starting again at the first of the book today. I am a highlighter. There were so many things that I had not seem before in the book before. MAYBE I wasn't ready to see them. mamacinnamon 24-Jan-07 Hey all: I didn't get thru the whole list. Went to see my gramma today. She will be 100 tomorrow. Anyway, I am comparing where I was in the bad relationsihp as to where I am now. So far the difference is huge. Am working on it and will return in just a bit. soprano2 25-Jan-07 Mama-- I am looking forward to reading your list. It is going to be a great example of what can happen when you decide to make a change. s2 ggfred4 25-Jan-07 How do you feel about changing yourself? I am ready for this change. I am 50 years old and do not want to spend the rest of my life like I have; to think of it is depressing enough. What do you think would happen if you begin to change? I think I am going to have a lot of problems with my immediate family, especially my husband. They are very comfortable with their codependent mother and wife who does without to give them everything she can. I feel like I am in preparation for war with the few times I have taken baby steps to stand up for myself. Do you think you can change? The thought of not changing brings me to tears. I have never had so much desire as I have had in the last 3-4 months. Guess I should think like that little train that could..."I think I can, I think I can..." Army mentioned awareness. The more I become aware of how codependent I am, the more I know I need to change. I am realizing now that I am more codependent than I originally accepted. I finished my checklist...ooh the 2's.... I recommend that everyone do the checklist...it was a wakeup call for me...and yes, quite depressing. But, there is hope; we can change!!! mj 25-Jan-07 Yes, We Can and we don't have to change alone. Tonight is the Book Study!!! I hope to attend! mj 25-Jan-07 Today when I summarized my characteristics, I had 18 2's! I am aware now and I accept that! mj 25-Jan-07 Is anyone else here for the book study tonight? mamacinnamon 25-Jan-07 Hey MJ: Just got signed on and am getting situated. I'm here mj 25-Jan-07 🙂 mj 25-Jan-07 Today I have identified some of my frequent codependent characteristics. The first step towards change is Awareness. The second step is Acceptance. My most predominate character defects/behaviors lie in the area of Weak Boundaries and Low Self-Worth. Caretaking- I find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices down to myself. Ex. Growing up the youngest, I admired my older siblings. My sis was a grade ahead of me in school. She was overweight. I felt bad when she was teased and always jumped to her defense. I did this out of love. Today I recognize this as codependent behavior. As an adult, I am still doing this 🙂 I need to learn that others are able to take care of themselves and this is a form of enabling. I need to trust in their ability to fight their own battles. I need to pick and choose my own battles. I am a very loyal friend. I don't want anyone hurting someone I care about. It is interesting that I can care about my friends injustices more than I can stand up for my own. Next is the Low Self-Worth Characteristics. Come from a troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional family. Fear Rejection. Take Things Personally. Have been a victim of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, and alcoholism. Feel like a Victim. Tell myself that I can't do anything right. Be Afraid of making mistakes. Get artifical feelings of self-worth from helping others. Try to prove I am good enough for others. Repression Category: Push my thoughts and feelings out of my awareness because of fear and guilt. Become afraid to let myself be who I am. Weak Boundaries; I say I won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people then gradually increase my tolerance until I can tolerate and do things that I said I never would. Let others hurt me. Keep letting people hurt me. Lack of Trust: Don't trust other people. Anger: Am frightened of other people's anger. mamacinnamon 25-Jan-07 MJ: Great posting. You took a real hard look at yourself. That is obvious. Also, I think you did great at identifying and putting a solution to things. mj 25-Jan-07 Thanks MamaCinnamon How are you doing with yours? mamacinnamon 25-Jan-07 I almost have my list completed. Just the last 2 subjects to complete. I am working on mine as in when I was married to evil x and now. I'll be right w/ you. My sis just got here to pick up her kids. 🙂 Excuse the interruption please. mj 25-Jan-07 Ok mj 25-Jan-07 Is anyone else here to participate this evening? armyleo 25-Jan-07 I'm here, had problem with the keyboard. Don'[t know why they keep disconnecting the wire from the computer. Anyways I happened to have an old keyboard!!! Yea I can type. Give me a sec to catch up.. mj 25-Jan-07 Glad you came armyleo! mamacinnamon 25-Jan-07 HI Armyangel: Does somebody not want you on the computer? I'm glad you are resourceful. OK MJ I am finished. Putting my assessment together. (while everyone is all around talking... 🙁 ) mj 25-Jan-07 Everyone? mj 25-Jan-07 God Grant me the Serenity, To Accept the Things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference. OK, Now I feel Better! armyleo 25-Jan-07 I think my main areas which I will need to work on are Controlling - which is scarry because I always thought because I was in control then I felt in charge, or a better way to put it is in control of everything. Meaning, I could handle things on my own. Denial - is another big one Dependency - Poor Communication - that is a big one. I knew I didn't get my point or idea across good. However, communication is more than that. It is blame, threaten,, beg, Don't say what I men. Big one here I can never seem to get to my point. Always trying to say what people want to hear etc..... Lack of Trust Anger Sex Problems Miscellaneous and the scariest of all I learned was Progressive....I cann't believe I got this far. I kind of feel awful right now, because I have soo many 2 in all the different areas's. So I guess there is no question that I am co-dependent. Sorry forgot to say hi to everyone. ggfred4 25-Jan-07 I am here mj...already posted my answers to the questions above. I think I need a calculator to count my 2's. The worst categories for me were Low Self Worth, Lack of Trust, and Dependency. mj 25-Jan-07 Glad to see you GG! I am sorry you are feeling awful army. It isn't good or bad, its reality. We get to work on changing what we don't like about ourselves. Glad you had the courage to post. Everyone who posted! mj 25-Jan-07 Does anyone know any positive affirmations? armyleo 25-Jan-07 so how does one go about removing so many 2's. It would be overwhelming to deal with so many. Yet I feel if I work on them one at a time It will take me forever to become un-codependent. mj 25-Jan-07 I am enough today! mj 25-Jan-07 If you work a program which is doing the twelve steps, then at step 8, you give them to your HP to take them from you at his will. You just have to be willing. mj 25-Jan-07 I apologize, its steps 5-7 that takes them away. armyleo 25-Jan-07 mj."...you give them to your HP to take them from you at his will. You just have to be willing." That's my problem, I realized I am controlling. However my biggest fear is the loss of control. Like if I'm not in control something bad will happen? Does it make sense. ggfred4 25-Jan-07 Hi army and mamac..mj, I was curious and began adding up my two's, made me feel awful too. I have a friend who keeps reminding me to think, "one day at a time"...I was thinking last night that if we go back to this book one year from now and rescore, maybe some of those 2's will be 1's and maybe some of those 1's will be 0's...Any change in that direction will be an improvement. It is easy to feel overwhelmed now, but I think after we think about it, we should not keep looking at the scores. We should keep moving ahead in the book. Just think of the characteristics as our groundwork, a starting place... mj 25-Jan-07 Step 5 is admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. This we just did! armyleo 25-Jan-07 I never realized I was trying to control...I always thought I was helping the outcome become better. mj 25-Jan-07 How is the controlling working for you army? Are you willing to try something different? Thats all that is re

August 28, 2007
4:32 am
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mamacinnamon
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TW:

Page 51 is the end of chapter 4 so I went ahead and printed this chapter. If you want chapter 5 printed then let me know.

August 28, 2007
1:55 pm
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Tumbleweed8
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MamaC, Thankyou so much. Yes, I noticed that when I went back and read in my book. I will appreciate any of the chapters you want to pull up, okay. I was hoping more would post their thoughts again and I'm glad Euqcaj has shared on the other thread you pulled up for us. I was trying to keep it going to keep it up for a few days if possible, but it can be retrieved for anyone interested in going back so thats good. I have just never tried to pull up old threads and don't know if I could with the setup I have here so that is why I asked for the help. I am slowly learning I need to ask more directly for things I need instead of just getting frustrated when it doesn't happen. This has taken me a long time to learn and I'm still learning. 🙂

August 28, 2007
1:59 pm
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Tumbleweed8
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Oh, it probably will be better to get more input on which chapters to pull up because this will probably need to be done slowly. What do you think? I know I can still read them in the book but for the newer people the discussions might be an added help.

August 28, 2007
3:28 pm
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mamacinnamon
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TW:

It's not hard or I'd not be able to do it myself. lol.

EuqcaJ will not be her for a couple days. She has her grand daughter coming.

Yes, I'd like everyone to get as much as they can, but I also don't want you holding back on your own progress. You can come back and discuss w/ others when they post, but don't slow yourself down. I will pull chapter 5 up for you and if you need 6 say so. I'll wait then after 5 to hear from you before pulling more.

Remember, you need to heal just as much as anyone else here does also.

🙂

August 28, 2007
4:38 pm
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Tumbleweed8
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MamaC, Thanks again. Sounds like a good plan to me. I'll let you know if I need more after 5 pulled up then. 🙂

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