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Religion and Science
May 27, 2006
3:44 pm
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Anonymous
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guest,

I hadn't been checking the other thread after Tez said he didn't want to discuss just part of that book. So I missed all your questions you'd posted for me there.

I don't know how much in depth I want to go into this. I used to love to bash about religion, but I don't anymore.

I'll add more in a while.

May 27, 2006
3:59 pm
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There are different ways to interpret the creation account. The interpretation I favor is that the earth, sun, and stars are of indefinite age, while the life currently on the earth is relatively recent (a few thousand years), and the various animals would have been created at virtually the same time (within a few literal days of each other, not significant enough to be measured).

I don't know much about this subject, so I can't refute the geological dating issues involved.

But this really isn't the type of science I had in mind. I'll catch up with you later to say more. I must run now somewhere.

May 27, 2006
5:09 pm
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guest, you mentioned copying and pasting, are you still willing to that?

running out for a few, back this evening.

May 27, 2006
6:01 pm
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WARNING:

This is LIB Brew. If you are offended by differing religious viewpoints, do not read further in this thread.
---------------------------

OK going on:

OMW, you said in the other thread:

>> with God it is different, it requires faith < < Well then, I told you guys before, there are 9 little kittens living inside my monitor but you dont believe they exist. See, it requires "faith". Its also different with my kittens as it is with your "God". How is believing in your God different than believing in those kittens, as far as "reality" or their existence is concerned? If it requires faith, its NOT sciece. Seeker, you dont have to stuff Science where it doesnt exist. So, where's the science in religion? I didnt get any answer from you. Again, if it requires FAITH, its not SCIENCE. No one requires FAITH in order to observe a fact in science. Everyone can see it, whether or not they want to see it happen or not. Seeker, I want to talk about Science in your specific religion -remember the Skeptics Bible? Thats what I want to talk about. I wont talk about Creationism or Evo. Prove to me that your religion was really from God and could not have been made by a false prophet. Lets see the proof now.

May 27, 2006
6:03 pm
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Hi, Seeker. May I butt in here, please?

Surely "science" & "religion" are totally different projects: they deal with different things, and they tackle different aspects of human experience in different ways.

As I see it, each is appropriate for its own objective.

"Science" deals with aquisition of knowledge ("scientia" in Latin). It tests hypotheses by empirical experimentation. This is usually performed formally, within stated strict parameters, usually in laboratory (or at least repeatable) conditions. It is subject to peer-group verification, and its results are always open to expansion, amendation or even replacement.

The essence of scientific methodology is finding REGULARITY, CONSISTENCY (as in descriptive 'rules' or 'laws') - hence PREDICTABILITY. These require an analytical, 'divide-and-rule' mindset, based on logic and things QUANTITIVELY.

Now religion, on the other hand, deals with the QUALITATIVE aspects of human experience, which are necessarily SUBJECTIVE (not 'objective') and can not be measured, checked against others, or quantified in the same, publically-observable, outward way.

To me, spiritual experiences & personal inner, experiential 'gnosis' is of a different order and totally different in kind. I personally believe in spiritual, mystical experiences of 'inner vision' & Understanding that reaches beyond the merely measurable in terms of weights, measures, temperature, speed etc. And also cannot be neatly summed up in 'one-size-fits-all', humanly predictable laws - simply because each one of us is unique; and we cannot set up experiments to repeat or observe, under laboratory conditions, one-offs like miraculous healing or spontaneous insights, enlightenments, experiences of bliss & Connectedness etc.

Obviously, one can attempt to 'translate' personal experiences into publically-recogniseable words. But no-one can possibly 'prove' that one individual's unique experiences are the same as anyone else's.

I see 'scientia' - i.e. empirical, factual knowledge as extremely important.

Yet equally - if not more important to the quality of an individual's life, is the Gnosis - the inner vision - the profound sense of spiritual Bonding & Connectedness with others & with greater, bigger, more perfect Power / Truth / Love ... is 'RE-LIGION', which means 'binding back together' / 're-connecting' / 're-uniting'(with That from which, in our little, finite personalities, we have necessarily been split away from when created as an individual.

Thanks for listening, if anyone has been! Hope this isn't too convoluted. I'm v worn out these days due to spending 8 hrs daily with a paralysed friend in hospital.
I just wanted to 're-connect' with people on here.

Blessings of Love, peace & mutual respect - gazelle.

May 27, 2006
6:03 pm
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guest-copy paste what u got. i am interested in reading the data u have.

May 27, 2006
6:07 pm
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Seeker, where's the science in these staetments from the Bible:

God's cure for snakebite: a brass serpent on a pole. 21:8

God has "the strength of a unicorn." Oh heck, I bet he's even stronger than a unicorn. 23:22, 24:8

"Haman thought in his heart." Most people think with their heads, but biblical folks think with their hearts. 6:6

The earth is a flat disc that God looks down upon from his throne in heaven. 40:22

More on the Skeptics site:
http://skepticsannotatedbible....../long.html

May 27, 2006
6:09 pm
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guppy, there it is, and there's a lot more "science" in the Bible in that site i gave above. Here the link

May 27, 2006
6:12 pm
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Teling you guys, I used to be a STRONG believer of my own religion. I left it all and became an athiest - just so you know where I'm coming from. This is true and I became on one on my own accord. No one can convince any one else, they got to do it themselves.

The chance of any of you being convinced is maybe 0.01%. All I can do is put you in a difficult spot to defend your faith.

May 27, 2006
6:14 pm
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The chapter names of those verses are all on that site. If you wanted to discuss a particular verse, I can bring up the chapter by going to that link. You can do it too. There's tonnes of "science" there, pick any to discuss

May 27, 2006
6:18 pm
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Ezekiel

The world is flat and has four corners. 7:2

Lets discuss this one, seeker.

How can you guys believe in this stuff? This is 2006. I can only hope kids growing up will be in a better shape to see things for what they are. As more awareness is brought about these things, they'll be able to tell what makes sense and what doesnt.

May 27, 2006
6:19 pm
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guest-i will read the site to see what it says. but like u, i believe what i believe. no arguement. no debate. and i dont feel the need to prove what i believe.

so.....how did u squash those kittens in your computer??????

May 27, 2006
6:22 pm
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they're still there. One of them just poked its head out and mewed. Think I'm crazy? Hey its "faith"

May 27, 2006
6:30 pm
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guest-according to this theory. science can disprove alot. not gonna argue with u. saved that site to my favorites. will read along and along. thank u for providing it.

May 27, 2006
6:31 pm
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ok. Its a simple site, all it did was categorize the stuff into various sections for disbelievers like me who are looking for it.

May 27, 2006
6:38 pm
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You are barking up the wrong tree here, Guest. 'Science' as we know it was not invented in the time biblical (& other) ancient texts were written.

Empirical experimentation, development of all-encompassing 'laws of physics' etc simply did not exist in the middle-eastern mindset back then. Neither did 'History' as we know it. Nor factual journalism. People had totally different problems to face in their everyday lives than we do, and tried overcoming them in totally different ways.

Writing back then had many functions, including an apparently ad hoc mixture of tribal history in disjointed (& often exaggerated)anecdotes, storytelling, poetry, instructions to help tribal social cohesion, much war-mongering against enemies & boasting vaingloriously about their own bloodthirsty slaughterings (often trying to justify appalling & inhumane, vicious behaviours by attributing their motivation to 'divine powers' - naively & immorally imho) PLUS much deep spiritual insight, wonderful teachings & Holy Wisdom (imho.)

The way these writings were argued over, altered, mistranslated for political purposes, & cobbled together is a tale in itself - about which much scholarly work has been painstakingly done by academics of ALL religious persuasions.

But to simply claim that statements in some ancient texts fail to stand up to modern critical, scientific analysis when taken literally (literalism was often never even UNDERSTOOD or INTENDED)would be as anachronistic & silly as asking why Moses never drove a jeep or how Mary got electricity for her TV & hi-fi.

I love reading & studying ancient history and anthropology out of sheer interest in 'otherness' - to open my mind to other ways of being - thinking - feeling - even perceiving / conceiving the world around us. P'raps one day I'll do a degree in it.

Taking metaphors, parables, moral illustrations, & the profound Truths wisely presented in story-form LITERALLY seems totally silly to me. Like if we took OUR metaphors & cultural figures-of-speech literally! Phrases like: "I'm dying to see that film!" or He exploded with rage!" or "He's sex on legs" or "They just flew down the road" etc, etc, etc. Lol.

Sorry if my attempt at common sense causes offence. None intended. For the record, I have all my life been deeply re-ligious and still am.

Goodbye (or, as it used to mean: 'God-be-wi'-ye'). Blessings of true understanding rather than ego-entrenchment in indoctrinated illogicalities. God IS Oneness & Infinite, Bonding Love. Gazelle.

May 27, 2006
6:58 pm
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guest-when u go to bed at night, dont u have faith u will get up in the morning? do u have faith u will get to eat tomorrow. everyday when u log on , dont u have faith tht aac will still be here???? faith comes in many forms and covers many things.

May 27, 2006
7:09 pm
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guest,

{WARNING:

This is LIB Brew. If you are offended by differing religious viewpoints, do not read further in this thread.}

This was a slap in omw's face. I don't appreciate you doing that. You're being inconsiderate.

May 27, 2006
7:24 pm
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gazelle,

You are most certainly welcome on this thread, anytime. I appreciate your comments very much. I thought I read that your a scientist. True?

You summed things up very nicely. There is a difference between science and religion. Science is man's attempt to understand the empirical universe. Religion is man's attempt to unite with God. Neither was meant to replace the other.

I sure hope your friend recovers soon. That must be a strain on you. Blessings on you for your kindness, gazelle!

May 27, 2006
7:24 pm
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seek-how do u know what guest's motive was? he has the right to believe as he so chooses, just like any of us. he has the right to say what he thinks just like any of us. how do u know he was meaning that to omw.?????? i just thought he was warning anybody that might get upset over the discussion to not get in it. to differ from mine or your viewpoint is not a slap in the face. how do u see this as such????????

May 27, 2006
7:33 pm
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guppy,

Read the Science and the New Relgion thread, and you'll see what I mean. There's more than meets the eye.

May 27, 2006
7:41 pm
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sorry, dont see it. guest is respectfully asking to disagree. he has the right to what he believes. i might or might not agree with him but out of respect i agree to agree or disagree without prejiduce.

May 27, 2006
7:52 pm
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seek-to throw guest down and then turn right around and praise gaselle because she thinks like u do is not right. this thread is NOT an adult discussion. i feel it is closed minded. i am not going to participate in this thread anymore.
your friend
guppy

May 27, 2006
8:10 pm
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guppy, thanks. I'll ignore seeker. First he feels he has to make me apologize to what I did to other people? Thats my business and theirs, not his. He's done that before. Seeker, you dont have to be the "savior" or feel responsible.

Gazelle__

No matter what, there is no excuse for the Bible to have those tonnes of unscientific statements it has. If you say it can have anything, it could really say ANYTHING and we should'nt be bothered - is that what you're saying? I dont think so. My problem was when seeker said religion has science and I thought WHERE. There is none.

>> the profound Truths wisely presented in story-form LITERALLY seems totally silly to me. < < Name just ONE profound truth, which cannot be deduced from commonsense. Why should things not be taken literally? Alright then, maybe God means "steel bowl" and Hell means "toasted Subway sandwich". When someone calls me a doorknob, they actually mean "I adore you". Here: We HAVE to take things literally, especially if the message is claiming to be from God. My main point: How do I know the Bible is from God? We dont. It isnt. I thought you were agnostic by the way.. hmm. guppy___, faith that I'll wake up is differnt. Like I said, believe in my kittens too. Seeker_______ >> I don't appreciate you doing that. You're being inconsiderate. < < I've held back saying this but I'll say this now: Its _none_ of your business. What I said was not to you, so just mind your business, alright? Let people stand up for themselves. Also as guppy said too, it was'nt directed to OMW, but to anyone who might be offended. Like alicat said in my thread, dont read more into other people's stuff.

May 27, 2006
8:15 pm
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Ok so guys.. I'm waiting for someone to show me SCIENCE in religion. Lets get back objectively to the topic and not focus on petty personal stuff.

I wanna see the science. I dont thikn there is any. Come on Seeker, defend the "for corner and flat" thing I copy pasted from the Skeptics site. You really think thats science?

Explain/justify the hundreds of scientific errors in the Bible. They're all there in the Skeptics site.

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