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Recovering From Religions
June 11, 2007
10:11 pm
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bevdee
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Red blonde

Here are a few- and you can google "recovering from..." whatever. There are discussion forums on some of these.

http://formercatholic.com/

http://www.exmormon.org/

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/.....laume.html

June 12, 2007
12:12 am
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Bev,

Thanks for moving this thread to Libs. I haven't checked out those links yet, but I will.

Hopefully, red blonde will find her way over here.

I quit attending the Baptist church when I turned 17. I was forced to go prior to that. Yet it wasn't until I was in my 40's that I started seriously questioning my beliefs. Even though I rarely thought about religion for all those years in between, my basic belief system hadn't strayed that far from what I was taught as a child. Just because you aren't actively attending church doesn't mean the church is out of you. It was a slow and painful 4 plus years of deconverting. The most difficult part for me was getting over feeling betrayed by the people I loved the most. I felt lied to. I've been reforming my philosophy of life ever since. It is a continuous search for the truth.

It seems the only reason for the existence of Christian and/or Catholic religions is to spread the word. You'd thing there'd be more to it than that. If you believe, you go to heaven and if you don't, you go to hell. Dancing and drinking are immoral for one group but fine and dandy for another. Fish on Friday and birth control are bad for one, but fine for another. Tons of meaningless rules and regulations. They may contribute a small percentage of their collections for charitable purposes, but the big bucks are spent trying to recruit new members and new believers. What a waste of time and effort and money...

June 12, 2007
12:21 am
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Here is another good one

http://www.precipicemagazine.c....._abuse.htm

Loralei - " Just because you aren't actively attending church doesn't mean the church is out of you." This is so true! It's late, though and I have to go to bed. I have an early appointment in the morning. I'll think about the ways the church is still in me.

June 12, 2007
1:10 am
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Bevdee ~

I am going to go on those links as soon as I can....THANK YOU.

I believe in God - period! I just do not believe in the 'dogma' of many of the Christian religions or faiths. I don't understand 'born again' Christians nor do I understand when people say that they have found God - God was never lost - only they were. So maybe God found them!

Good night and hope you sleep well hope we can discuss this more.

June 14, 2007
7:09 pm
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I too am "Recovering From Religions".

Phew - it's not a nice illness. Many have died as a result of the nature of this disease. Every day the list goes up of US servicemen and women who have paid the supreme price for Bush's, Bin Laden's and many powerful other's infection by this illness.

June 15, 2007
11:32 pm
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One of the things Christianity instilled in me and I am trying to recover from is guilt. Another is the idea that there is a right(eous) and wrong way live.

I always have this vague feeling that I am doing something wrong, and whenever I went to church, that was reinforced by the sermons.

June 16, 2007
8:57 am
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Bevdee ~

Still reading the 'former catholic' website that you posted to me.

June 17, 2007
7:08 am
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Miss Red

I read recovering from Mormonism to try to understand an aunt of mine. That's how I stumbled onto all those sites.

We were a little of everything. Methodist, then Episcopal. We had to go to church with my grandparents, who were Baptist. After my folks got a divorce, my daddy went to assembly of god churches, then non-denominational.

The Episcopal and Methodist were moderate- but there sure was a lot of kneeling suring the service!

June 19, 2007
2:18 am
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bevdee ~

It was really confusing growing up. I was born a Catholic. Baptised at birth due to complications. When I was five or six, my parents changed religions, for what reason, I don't know, and I was baptised again as a Methodist...but my parents still retained all the dogma and rituals practiced by Catholics. My relatives on both sides were totally Roman Catholic. I have cousins who are priests ( one being groomed to be a cardinal and perhaps a future Pope), an uncle who was one of the pres. of the Holy Name Society (national), ancestors who were Cardinals etc. Sometimes, I think that my relatives looked at my family as heretics. Then when I first married, I went back to Catholism. I stopped going to Church, when no help was offered when I requested intervention when my husband was physically abusing me and had made me lose one child in my second trimester.

But the worst was the guilt/shame and fear or blame game that I believed my mother learned growning up Catholic and used to control me.

June 19, 2007
8:47 am
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Red -hey!

Wow, it sounds like your family is steeped in a tradition, as well as a mindset.

That just sucks that the Church did not care that you were being whooped up on. I was taught that god and those that "carry out" his Word and works care, and it sure hurts to find out the opposite, doesn't it? I can understand why you stopped going to church!! Bastards!!

But the worst was the guilt/shame and fear or blame game that I believed my mother learned growning up Catholic and used to control me."

How did she do that?

June 19, 2007
11:55 pm
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Tez you wrote:

"Every day the list goes up of US servicemen and women who have paid the supreme price for Bush's, Bin Laden's and many powerful other's infection by this illness."

Perhaps we could say this very thing about athiesm as well:

Joseph Stalin: surely you know that story

In 1937, Mongolia's brutal Communist dictator Choibalsan decided to
crush religion. The leader had 17,000 of the country's 110,000 monks executed and most of its 746 monasteries destroyed.

We could go on and on. People are persecuted and tortured worldwide by athiests for believing in a God, not just the Christian God, and have been throughout history.

so, is athiesm an infectious disease as well?

free

June 20, 2007
9:09 pm
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Red-

Hey, how you doin? I found another one. This one is about the women of the bible, and gives a different perspective than that which I was taught.

http://www.alabaster-jars.com/

I hope you're doing ok.

June 20, 2007
9:36 pm
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Tez are you avoiding a direct question like you frequently accuse others of doing?

I'm shocked.

free

June 23, 2007
11:56 pm
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Red

I found another one. http://ex-christian.net/

June 28, 2007
1:49 am
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Bevdee ~

Don't get on this side often...but I am writing those two sites down. I will check them out as soon as I can.

Thank you so very much.

In answer to your question, my mother made me feel guilt, shame, fear and to blame for all the abuse that she did to me as a child...and growing up...laid all of that on me as though I was the one who MADE her do that, instigated it, or whatever,
for the rest of my life about different things. I guess I had been so conditioned to it, that when it came to my making decisions for myself - I couldn't, I always looked to someone else to help me make any decisions. Or for approval. She would make me feel guilty and bad if I was doing something that she didn't want me to do - or to make me do what she wanted me to do, with out regard for my feelings, wants, or needs.

June 28, 2007
6:38 pm
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"so, is athiesm an infectious disease as well?"

Well ... since the atheistic whole belief system en toto is:

"God does not exist"

its a little strange to see four words that describe a simple truth as being a disease. But I guess that's a matter dependent upon your mental capabilities to think past childlike superstitions brainwashed into you during childhood.

What do you think? A min-disease perhaps?

Since I don't attend any organized meetings of atheists or know of any in existence except the odd one in the US, I cannot see how any contagion of this kind can be spread. Do you?

Does that answer your question satisfactorily?

June 28, 2007
8:28 pm
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Tez

were you talking to me in your last post? Well I guess so, as I looked through the thread and I did ask that question.

In all honesty Tez, I don't believe that. I don't believe any of the "religions" or non-religions are a disease. or maybe what I should say is "belief systems."

What I don't like is fanaticism, and I tried to play the part to give you and other posters something back. I have seen what I percieve as fanaticism. Didn't work so great though. I've just made alot of enemies or so it seems. Well, live and learn I say. Sometimes silence is just- best.

I've never shared my religious or spiritual beliefs here.

Well everyone else has, so I guess I could. I'm a gnostic. Not willing to share what type. I have noticed numerous posters "shoveling" me into a category for standing up against something. Different things, over time, not just as of late. I can wage a battle in different areas with the same people and be called different things by the same people-things that contradict depending on the battle and with whom.

I can make a statement about religious history and have it shot down-ridiculed if you will, by what appears to be a mob. I can cause alot of shit. so can you Tez, and you do. You are fascinating to watch, gotta give you that.

It has been quite interesting.

But I'm done. I've learned what I had originally set out to learn.

For now- back to my Zen spot.

free

June 28, 2007
9:07 pm
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Hey Free

I'm glad you posted this. *and I tried to play the part to give you and other posters something back* and later this *I can cause alot of shit. so can you Tez, and you do. You are fascinating to watch, gotta give you that.* Because in the aftermath of my post about my grampa, I started having some suspicions.

In the early part of the Is the Bible.... superstition thread, you entered to defend OMW from the meanness of Tez and me. This is not the first time,though, and I thought, well she might have triggers about being thought or called stupid. I suspected that it was Tez you were trying to draw out with your statements and repeated posts to him.

*I can wage a battle in different areas * I asked you once before if you ever wearied of arguing and you would not answer me because you said something like ~~not now my question is for Tez~~. (If God's so good... thread)

I'm relieved in a way, though. I was getting kind of concerned for you, and that's all codependent of me.

If this was all contrived, you did a great job because until the other day, I thought you
were foaming at the mouth insane with the conflicting stuff you were putting out there.

Now, from this post- if you are to be believed?

You were just deliberately being insincere.

Manipulating the situation so you could learn.

All the best to you free.

June 28, 2007
9:34 pm
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Hi bevdee

"I'm glad you posted this."

why?

"Because in the aftermath of my post about my grampa, I started having some suspicions."

suspicions about what?

"you entered to defend OMW from the meanness of Tez and me. "

I do think the two of you can be particularly mean.

"well she might have triggers about being thought or called stupid"

I've been thought and called much worse. I'm sure we all have

"I was getting kind of concerned for you, and that's all codependent of me."

that's funny. concerned? If I'm going nutso, what could you possibly do about that? realistically speaking. I DO appreciate your concern. I think I'm okay though 😉

"If this was all contrived"

I don't understand

"foaming at the mouth insane with the conflicting stuff you were putting out there."

I don't understand what a foaming at the mouth insane post is. But bevdee, animals foam at the mouth and so I don't appreciate that comment. I'm not an animal if that's what you meant to imply. Hopefully not.

"Now, from this post- if you are to be believed?"

about what?

"You were just deliberately being insincere"

about what?

"Manipulating the situation so you could learn."

I don't know about the manipulating part, but learning is what I'm here for, yes.

"All the best to you free."

What does this mean? There was a time I thought it meant "I don't want to post to you anymore" as in "goodbye" but then there would be more posts. So Idon't know what this means.

free

June 29, 2007
10:01 am
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Red

Good to hear from you, and thank you for your answer. My mother was much the same and often used her concept of her religion to reinforce her message to me. That's why I asked. Maybe it made me very sensitive to the guilt that is used in religions. My daddy, not married to my mother, does the same to me on a smaller scale even now, as an adult.

My mom gave up the religious dogma years ago. She went through this charismatic phase- do you know about that? We were Methodist, then Episcopal, but at night? When I was 10 and my sister was 7, she was involved with a "charismatic movement" and dragged us to these conventions with "famous" speakers, healers, and ministers. At the end of the service they would all "speak in tongues" and cast out demons. There sure was lot of shouting and carrying on. When I was 17, she decided that I was on the road to hell, partying with my friends. She enrolled me at ORU- you know? Oral Roberts University. She explained to me that I had been accepted into the nursing program, and by the time I got there, the medical program would be finished, too. I might snag a doctor.

I asked her why a faith healer would even need a doctor or promote nursing or medicine. Kind of an oxymoron, I mean that's as silly to me as calling a psychic and them asking for your astrological sign. *Why don't you tell me, you're the psychic*. That was one slap I was expecting. I had to endure a weekend orientation at the campus, though. But I didn't go to the university after high school.

She gave up the religious tactic, but still uses her own unique style of disapproval and guilt in an effort to control me.

June 29, 2007
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free

"All the best to you" I'm sorry that wasn't clearer to you. Translated means "I wish you the best."

Free- I have re-read my post of 06-28 to you and then your response to me. Ok- I guess you don't understand. You quoted from my post those things you say you don't understand, but failed to paste on over the reasons I gave for making the statements that I did.

I wondered if your confusion this time might have been because you skimmed my post?

Free- I wish you all the best in your journey and your efforts at learning. At this point in my journey, and what I hope to learn from this site, meaning today - I just find it too futile to try to communicate with you.

I've noticed in many of your posts lately, you expressed feeling persecuted, turned on by a mob. I really hope you don't come away from reading this and think that this is what this post is about. All I hope to achieve by this post is to say to you that at this point, I don't find it productive for me to try to communicate with you in the style you have chosen. For now.

I wish you the best in your journey. I'll "see" you around.

June 29, 2007
8:03 pm
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Free.

You said:

"I've just made alot of enemies or so it seems."

If I came across a woman stranded by the road with her car broken down, and I then discovered that it was you, I would do all in my power to get your car running. I would give you a big hug, wave to you as you drove away. I would then get myself home and continue on with my posts here in exactly the same way.

I came from a funeral of one of my partner's in-laws yesterday.

Funerals are not much fun at the best of times but this one was lovely. Not once, and I do mean this literally, was the word God, heaven, or any other Christian party line mentioned. The celebrant went on eloquently about what a good man the deceased was. The deceased's son, an uneducated 'backwoodsman', spoke lovingly from the very heart about what a wonderful man his father was. His warts and all stories about his father brought botears and laughter. The son recounted how concerned his dying father was, in his father's last dying moments, for the distress of his wife. The dying father apparently gave his son a wrathful eye 'whipping' for being preoccupied with his dying rather than being concerned for his mother's grief as she turned away sobbing. The father apparently with his last little bit of energy twisted his head and darted his eyes towards his wife indicating his wish for the son to look after her. Then he passed away peacefully without fear for his own loss of his 'horse' - his body.

I contemplated the both the celebrant's and the son's eulogies for some time upon awakening this morning.

I saw how there is inate goodness, love and compassion within us all just as there is inate evil, fear and hatred.

I asked myself what religion has to do with this and the answer, that came to me was 'nothing other than to act as a power base'. Religion only muddies the water. Religion can be used to reinforce our own motives where reinforcing is needed.

However, acts based upon motives stemming from love and compassion don't require reinforcement of any kind, whereas those motives that are based upon fear, do.

JC supposedly said that the truth will set you free. This is hardly original - but it is no less valid.

Christians twist this statement to mean that 'biblical' truth is freeing. This is a perversion of the message that I think Christ intended to convey. As I understand it Christ was trying to bring some love and compassion from his Indian journeys and experiences between the age of 16 and 30 into Judaism to offset the rampant fear that existed in Judaism in those times. What other reason could there be for the ommission of any reference whatsoever to these missing years that the knowledge that Christ's teachings may have been derived from Hindu and Buddhist influences. "So as ye sow, so shall ye reap" is Hindu and Buddhist karma based. Much of the Gospel of St Thomas, one of Christ's closest confidants, contains Buddhist teachings that are not obvious to those not familiar with the essence of the Buddha's teachings.

However sad it is to say, Christ failed miserably in his quest. The fear ridden symbolism of the Christian Cross prevailed throughout Christian history. So what's new today? Nothing! Bush, the eminent Christian, is the purveyor of raw fear 'en masse' and Guantanamo Bay prison is the epitome of the criminal injustice that fear breeds. Thanks to Christianity we now have a new breed of holy martyrs to glorify, sanctify and hold up as inglorious examples to pollute the minds of the young.

It is unfair to hold Bush responsible for all of this mess. Each and every Christian, who doesn't place his/her own beliefs under the microscope of compassionate and critical reasoning, must carry the responsibility in direct proportion to his/her failure to do so.

It is no more mean to say to an adult God doesn't exist than it is to say Father Christmas is a work of fiction, loosely based upon the reported compassionate behavior of St. Nicholas or to inform the primitive natives of New Guinea that the aeroplanes are not bearing gifts from the white Gods in the sky.

'Meanness' is in the 'eye' of the beholder.

June 29, 2007
8:48 pm
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Hi Tez

I'm glad you responded to my post.

I wanna be kinda careful what I say here- right now- Kuz I do like interacting here and right now it seems I'm not communicating well or something. My words have created a somewhat hostile environment.

With that said.

I can appreciate your anger towards "Christians." I held it at one point as well, sometimes still do. As with others, I've my own horror story with a Baptist Church. I'm certain I will never belong to a "church" again in this lifetime. But not all "Christians" are negative. Mother Theresa for example. The Amish. And- going out on a limb here, Gnostic Christians. There is certainly goodness in all things.

I hear what you are saying about Jesus. Some people believe he was a gnostic. some people believe the vast majority of his words were taken out of context, misinterpreted, twisted, misunderstood. Some people acknowledge the gospel of Mary Magdalene and call her a disciple. But you probably know this. Surely this could cause another heated debate. That has taken much energy to engage in, I dunno how people can do this for a lifetime. I think- I THINK- those who adhere to a religion or a church- they're not gonna hear much less listen to anything that contradicts that which they adhere to. Knowledge is simply not a goal. They think they have it, and they think they have it ALL.

No matter who it is. No matter what it is.

I think there is some truth in the Christian religion and it's various sects. But truth is elusive and must therefore be sought after throughout our lifetime.

I just don't think that when we die, that's the end as we know it.

There's something out there.

We are limited to knowledge mainly by our physical senses. We see the world as linear or curved for example- bees see the world in hexagons. Just an example. Blind people don't experience sight- can't tell them what color is unless we try to make analogies to what they CAN experience. Even then, the experience of seeing color is something they can never quite comprehend, not in their physical bodies.

Well, I'm going on and on now.

Hopefully this post does not ruffle too many feathers.

free

June 29, 2007
10:45 pm
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Free

On the 29-Jun-07 last of all you wrote:

"Hopefully this post does not ruffle too many feathers."

It surely doesn't ruffle mine. I thrive on this stuff. It stimulates my mind to think at ever deeper levels. There is no need to be careful with me - you silly billy. 🙂

You also said:

"I just don't think that when we die, that's the end as we know it. "

Neither do I.

A very common misconception is that all atheists believe that death is the end of everything for the 'dear departed'. I believe that conscious awareness is still with the 'dearly departed'. However, this belief of mine is not incompatible with not believing in the existence of any god whatsoever that god is called. This belief of mine doesn't not preclude me from being a good atheist. In fact no belief that I know of, other than belief in the existence of at least one god, disqualifies me from being an atheist.

Perhaps the 'cut and paste' below puts my case better than I can.

3: SEARCHING FOR THE CAUSES OF UNHAPPINESS
An understanding of the true nature or reality of inner phenomena has the power to cut through unclear and foggy states of mind. Such wisdom is like a sword slicing through delusion. This diamond-hard blade is capable of destroying negativities completely. With the wisdom gained from deep understanding, your mind automatically attains a state of clear tranquility, and a truly peaceful inner environment is established. For this reason, the Buddhadharma does not emphasize blind acceptance of doctrinal statements. Your own personal investigation and inner experience of the truth of the teachings are much more important than an unquestioning belief in dogma. Gaining such wisdom is the only effective way of training your mind and achieving your goals. You will not make much progress along a religious path if your wisdom-knowledge is not functioning sharply. This is contradictory to what most people think about religion - that religion is a set of rigid beliefs removed from or even opposed to reason and therefore beyond questioning, logic, argument, or scientific verification. Unfortunately, the deterioration into dogmatism of so much religious thought strengthens this cynical viewpoint. However, I am not talking here about such degenerate forms of what might be called religion but is in fact mere superstition. Rather, I am concerned with inner disciplines capable of bestowing true peace on the minds of oneself and others.

It is a common mistake to think that a religious person is someone who is afraid of new and potentially challenging situations that might threaten his or her beliefs. Since true religion is the very light of wisdom, why should a religious person ever be afraid of darkness? The nature of light cannot be affected by shadows. Similarly the clean, clear light of wisdom-knowledge cannot be disturbed by confused and foggy states of mind.
Nor is the spirit of scientific investigation in any way contrary to true religion. After all, scientific experiments do not contradict the light of the sun and moon, so why should they be opposed to the light of inner wisdom?

The weak - those who lack the discriminating eye of wisdom - accept religious beliefs passively. Having no background in philosophic thought and ignorant of the reasons supporting their faith, they experience great uneasiness when someone questions their beliefs. Such people often live closely guarded lives, fearful of encountering someone or something that might shatter their insecure spiritual foundation. This attitude, however, is not the fault of religion but of their own limited understanding. True Dharma leads in exactly the opposite direction. It enables one to integrate all the many diverse experiences of life into a meaningful and coherent whole, thereby banishing fear and insecurity completely."

- Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa Rinpoche,(2000), "Wisdom Energy Basic Buddhist Teachings"(pp 31-32) ISBN o-86171-170-x

I am neither a Buddhist apologist nor a particular fan of Tibetan Buddhist beliefs. But I recognize 'wheat amongst the chaff' when I see it.

Above is such 'wheat'. Though claiming neither divine authorship nor infallibility, this book has much more 'grain' to offer than 'chaff'- providing of course the book is read employing a lot of critical thought as advised above not blind faith in its veracity.

The Tibetan Buddhist monks very vigorously debate the veracity of their beliefs formally and with much enthusiasm looking for the 'chaff' to disgard. One side takes the role of the 'devil's advocate' so to speak. It's little wonder that they welcome any and all scientific discoveries that might come their way.

What other religion can say the same, when science exposes and pinpoints their 'chaff'? I think that Buddhism being a religion (albeit without a God), they have plenty of 'chaff' too; 'chaff' introduced long after the Buddha's demise by 'errant' deciples.

But, I just can't find the fundamental contradictions in Buddhism like I find in Christianity.

If anyone here wants to discuss the Gospel of St. Thomas in a rational way I'd be more than interested in doing same in order to extract the 'wheat' therein.

June 30, 2007
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hi Tez

What do you know about the Gospel of St. Thomas?

Maybe a better question: what has you intrigued?

If I had to guess, it would be "beginnings." ?

free

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