Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_TopicIcon
Profound question surrounding the "forgiveness" term.....
April 16, 2008
4:57 pm
Avatar
truthBtold
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

OK folks.

I feel like I am "ahead of the curve" in posting this here on the libs side since my sense is that the responses (hopefully - if I get any....has not really been the case here recently on the support side....)To honor the SC's boundaries on keeping such discussion of here, on this forum as it relates to possible religion/spirtuality responsesd rather than on the other side.

So here's the deal that has been brewing around in my head for many years now.......

Is forgiveness (of all the past abuse we, you, and I have endured)REALLY necessary?

I suppose (to answer my own question....it all might depend.) Right?

Depends on where EXACTLY we are in our own journey.

For me, in my past years of therapy, Most times, I was strongly nudged by therapists towards a realm of "forgiveness" - but then again - I wonder - how in the world can I ever forgive - that which I have not been fully able to remember or grasp....i.e.....depersonalization?

Depersonalization, by its very nature, is a response to being in a circumstance which is quite frankly....pain beyond belief.

So HOW can I forgive that which I have not been able to fully register and feel?

To my mind, Susan Forward is one of the few, rare authors whom suggest that many therapies suggest "forgiveness" way too early, and to which I agree, to that end.

So - OK - everyone is on different levels here in respect to growth.

What is "forgiveness" anyway?

Does it condone such behavior that left most of us really screwed up and basically -without a damn clue as an adult?

And where exactly does one reconcile the "limitations" of our parents and therefore - eventually try and forgive them?

In the legal realm, there is a great distinction between say - accidental manslaughter and pre-meditated murder.

Might those same distinctions apply to a smaller, family unit?

The "accidental" event versus the pre-meditated one?

Is it all about "intention?"

Is there really a "lesser" of two evils.

I honestly don't know.

Been pondering this for some time.

My sense is (since my mother was raped by her own father) that if she would have known better - she would have done better - without question.

But then again - there is the situation of my father which I felt that he DID know better....but went on his way to exert power and control......anyway???????

Can "forgiveness" be split here, in this instance?

The question of motive, I suspect, plays a key part.

But even - in worst case scenerio, do you "forgive?" the intentional one?

Maybe - what I am thinking out loud here....is that somewhere along the way - we lost sight of "right" and "wrong." always inching our ways towards what made the perp act like he/she did and to give them an "out."

I dunno.

Like I said, been pondering this mess for many years now.

A very wise (and rare) therapist told me one time that to "let them off the hook" also meant that we "let ourselves off the hook - even more so."

My deep, intuitive sense is that "forgiveness" might finally occur as just a natural by-product of sorts. Something that is NOT focused upon as something to "do" - but just naturally happens and falls by the wayside, sort of speak, when we finally get our own stuff together...and this is just "remainder type" of minor stuff that kind of naturally balances itself out..........

Like I said - I really dunno.

Maybe it kind of works like that.

Any comments?

Bottom line: Is "Forgiveness" just something else we have to finally cross off of our "To Do" list???????

I don't think so.

Why? I am not exactly sure.

Insights anyone (who's left here.....)

tBt

April 16, 2008
6:07 pm
Avatar
StronginHim77
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 453
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Forgiveness is definitely a CHOICE. It is not always something that we feel like doing; rather, it is something we set our wills to do with God's help. I have never really been able to forgive anyone without going to God and asking His grace and help to do it.

What IS forgiveness? I believe it is our choice to extend mercy and a release from deserved consequences for any evil done to/against us, just as our loving Father has chosen to extend mercy to each of us, despite our unworthy, undeserving status. Because He has forgiven me for my many offenses against Him, I choose (with His help) to forgive those who have offended me.

My decision to forgive has nothing to do with their remorse (or lack thereof). Admittedly, it much easier to forgive someone who has expressed genuine sorrow for wounding/hurting us than someone who remains unrepentent and utterly lacking in remorse for -- or acknowledgement of -- the wrong(s) done to us.

The benefits of forgiveness are far-reaching, both spiritually, emotionally AND physically. Unforgiveness is the cause of many, physical ailments, including various aches & pains, insomnia, nightmares and many serious diseases and disorders. I see so much of this when I am serving at The Healing Rooms. Quite often, when I lead a hurting individual to forgiveness of a person (or persons) who have badly wronged or wounded him/her, miraculous healing of his/her physical ailment follows. So, I have seen firsthand that there is a connection.

This is my best take on the topic.

- Ma Strong

April 16, 2008
7:12 pm
Avatar
Tiger Trainer
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 5
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

truth,
your writing was very thought provoking. I don't feel quailified to respond because I haven't been through what you've been through and I don't think forgiveness is possible unless you've worked through all the other feelings.

can you keep us posted?

April 16, 2008
7:14 pm
Avatar
bevdee
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 259
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hey Miss Truth

According to a Buddhist saying, anger is like a piece of burning coal that we use to hit out against someone else. The hurled piece of live coal may hit the person, even injuring him as we intend at that moment. But the most injured, the most seared, is the one who hurls the coal, the one who held it in the first place.

Since we have no real power over those we are angry with, and it is within us, it hurts us worse than it hurts them.

April 16, 2008
7:26 pm
Avatar
truthBtold
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thank you both for your responses.

Personally, I don't really believe, in my heart of hearts, there is anything such as a a "loving father."

I just don't.

That's just my personal, innate sense.

But I DO appreciate the input and will think about it.......

(I am not so ignorant as to completely toss out others' sincere input. I WILL give it some thought.)

April 16, 2008
7:29 pm
Avatar
truthBtold
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

bevdee. posts crossed.

(By the way - so good to hear from you....)

Will take ALL into consideration........

(The jury is still out.....)

Will remain open to all.....

Nothing forcing me to come to any concrete conclusions right now...........

April 16, 2008
7:32 pm
Avatar
red blonde
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

tBt -

I agree with Ma Strong.

I had trouble with forgiveness as well since my mother's death. I had forgiven her many times when she was still alive, I suppose it was because I held hope that my mother would 'change' and become the mother that I had wanted and needed. And my hope that she would love me as a daughter...or at the very least..as a friend. That never happened. And then the last set of recovering memories after her death happened..and I found myself not being able to forgive her for all that she had done to me...to my life. I kept trying to figure out why..what made her do the things that she did to me and others.

My therapist had been gently pushing me in the direction of forgiving my mother and she knew that I was having trouble doing so. I guess I wasn't ready to do so...until lately. She had me think about one good thing about her or one act of kindness she showed me...I could not think of one.

I finally found a possible answer to my quest in finding out what made her that way...and in doing so...I also found one thing that she taught me...so that I could forgive her and let her go. I will never forget what she did to me...I will think about it, I guess, on occasion, but she, like the things she did to me, are long gone...and perhaps the pain (or painful memories) are gone to now...after my 'symbolic' burial rite that I did...for myself. Forgiveness perhaps is more for the 'survivor' than for perpretrator. We carry the 'guilt' of their abuse because they rarely carry it themselves...and make us feel that WE were the ones who responsible for their actions. They 'made' us feel guilty and ashamed as though we 'asked' to be abused because we were powerless to stop them.

(Hope I am making some sense here and maybe have helped in some little way.)

I guess when we are ready to stop beating ourselves up ..or them..we start to move towards forgiveness but it does take time.

((((tBt))))

April 16, 2008
8:38 pm
Avatar
truthBtold
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thank you everyone for really being "real" and for expressing such secret,intimate thoughts.

Thank you for being so vulnernable.

Though it may take me a while to fully process......(tears now...)

Please know that I DO appreciate and will safeguard it..........

((((Everyone)))))

April 16, 2008
8:52 pm
Avatar
sdesigns
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 30
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

tbt: Here are a couple of Ladeska's posts that I saved re: forgiveness.

______

Furthermore, I think sometimes a religious doctrine is ingrained in us or our society. We almost feel it is a crime to consider another approach. Here is a framework that makes sense to me. If the perpetrator asks the victim in true remorse for forgiveness, the victim should forgive...maybe the victim is not psychologically ready the first time, but by the third time, the victim should forgive...if the victim does not, now the victim has committed a crime and it is between the victim and his/her higher power. If the perpetrator never asks in true remorse for forgiveness, how can the victim forgive? Yes, the victim can feel sorry for the perp, can be glad the victim is not the perp, can do all those surface things to try to let go, but the victim will always harbor some resentment, some after affects. Afterall, that is why we are all here!!!!! If, however, the victim, admits the act is unforgiveable until the perp shows true remorse and asks the victim for forgiveness, it is then that the codep no longer struggles with fixing the situation or fixing him/herself. If the perp NEVER asks the victim for forgiveness, it surely is not the victim's struggle to find a way to excuse this person or forgive a crime or wrongdoing. It is a relief to admit this. It is not my job! We are all such fixers. We don't have to fix this one. If someone rapes me, I don't have to forgive it. I don't have to search for a way to forgive a criminal or a nazi or an abuser. That person has the struggle. I am free of it. I cannot tell you what a relief it was to have this other point of view explained to me. For over a year, I have been struggling with it, and now I feel free of it. I thought you all might benefit from understanding a different framework from the majority, although I know it might not be what is ingrained in you. From this other point of view, G-d (as the write it, out of respect for the higher power, as they cannot write his name), gives you the strength to deal with the unimaginable and gives you the 10 commandments and laws to follow. You know right from wrong. You follow them. You shall not kill, among others. If you do these things, you will live a good life and be ultimately judged for it. IF you have hurt someone, it is your job (not theirs) to ask for forgiveness. Thus, if I commit a crime or wrongdoing against a person, I must ask three times for sincere forgiveness. IT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY, not the victims! I think that is so cool. I am forced to take responsibility. It is then between G-d and me. If I commit a crime against G-d, it is between G-d and me. If murder is committed, there is no way one can be forgiven, because the person is dead, and the victim cannot be asked for forgiveness...it is between the criminal and G-d.
I thought I would share this different point of view, because I was out with a very learned person yesterday who shared this information with me. It was very different from the way I had understood things. So, I looked it up after in a book I had intended time ago on forgiveness with commentaries from many different religions. I cannot tell you how much this different take lifted a burden I was carrying for over a year. I never had CODA problems before I struggled with this. I share this with you in hopes that even if it helps one person as much as it did me, it was worth it. I share this hoping we all have open enough minds to consider all religions. By the way, I come from a family where there is just about every race and religion. So, I love hearing all sides. I believe ultimately every religion leads to the same outcome...helping us remember the difference between good versus evil. That is how I personally know there is a higher power. It is a phenomenon in every culture.

Ladeska 9-18-07
So I'll live with whatever pain from anger or whatever. Trust me - it's better than living with "forigiving my psychopaths" and being in that hell......Tried that and it was completely insane and straight from hell itself. I'm so sure some dying person would relish the thought that you know bent your head to their power and said - Oh I forgive you..... Those people in my life can rot in their pain before that ever happens. They cared nothing about my pain.

Ladeska
15-Sep-07
One thing that I think comes into play regarding the subject of forgiveness is - forgiving yourself. To me - it's the unfairness of expecting a child to be able to stand up to the cons of a psychopath or their whores in suit with them.
When something very tragic happens to a child, I absolutely believe that their emotional intelligence is stunted if not stopped altogether. That's why you see people who do rather well out in the world and yet they can't do anything adult when it comes to personal relationships. Something got "stopped" way back when and they never really - grew up in that side of their psyche.
We have to have alot of compassion for ourselves in that regard because a child is no match for such coming at them from all sides, with no way out.
A child will say - this happened to me - so I must me bad. And they will sometimes live with that premise the rest of their lives as an adult.
Playing out roles in their life - as a child, not as an adult. Finding themselves actually jealous of the attention their own children get because - they are still a "child" themselves.
Fighting with their spouse on a very childlike level, etc.
It takes first realizing that - you got stunted somewhere and realizing what age you really are - emotionally and then looking at your responses to things and seeing if they match up to - that age.
It's not easy. It's horrible actually.....but self-work is never easy but it does yield a good crop if you work at it.
Just like I've talked to so many women who - go into a panic when out in the highways and get to the point where in bad traffic - they have panic attacks and almost can't function. I ask them......how would a 9 year old or a 4 year old function in this kind of situation??
Then we do things like - exercises that broadens one's perspective and personal space and spatial awareness to beyond that of a 4 year old or a 9 year old. Knowing that.......it's not your fault that - you are where you are.....but you can grow out of it because "now" you have an adult analytical mind, so that means - you can grow faster than lightning if - you will put yourself to the task.
Things for a 4 year old, where maybe you were first abused - is closer in than that of a 25 year old. They feel threatened easier, quicker and panic.
They have childlike reactions to things, sometimes without words because a 4 year old can't form them yet for what's going on, they can't know or determine what's happening to them. They just know - they feel panic, guilt, fear, etc.
You don't fully develop your analytical side until your around the age of 25 anyways. So if you're stunted on the emotional side, you're just trying to keep up, bandage the wounds as you go along and not understanding anything much....
But you can help that....you can grow your emotional side up, but you first have to realize that - you are where you are. You are the age - emotionally - that you are. You can't fix, what you don't acknowledge.

Ladeska
20-Sep-07
I will never make peace with an offender that is without conscience. Just won't be happening in my lifetime and I'm sooo okay with it. I'll forgive people who deserve forgiveness and predators - don't and that's that.
I haven't really talked about the forgiveness to yourself thing and it rally should be talked about a bit more. I'll just give you my version. When something very traumatic happens to us as a young child - like I've said before - you don't have the analytical mindset to figure it all out. You're thinking - as a child.
But we grow up and we assume the position, largely because people put us there, that WE need to forgive this grown adult for whatever. Like trying to kill me.......are you nuts?
But the forgiveness part is actually the thing of - disbelieving the lies and accepting the truth instead.
It's forgiving ourselves for basically persecuting US and accusing ourselves for - believing lies that were sooooo complicated, so way over our heads and sooo nothing a child could EVER figure out because they don't have the tools do that or the brain.
We have to come to that place of self-love and say - it's okay that you believed them.......that you bought into whatever and that you didn't now the difference and couldn't figure it all out back then......it's "okay"....
It SO doesn't mean in my book that you forgive the offender. Quite the contrary. Them? They still stay exactly where they are - guilty and not sorry for any of it.
You just give your young emotional self the freedom and room to grow and realize that - as a child in all that - there's just no way you could have seen what was really, really going on around you and coming at you and all the little deals that were being made between adults.
That's the forgiveness of "self" that means something - to me personally and that has aided me.
The other thing I want to mention is - storyboarding. Clean off a wall in your house, take all the pictures down and cover it with corkboard and put things up that mean something to you for every age. It's hard to "see ourselves" in what we are in but sometimes unless you put it up in pictures and whatever else - you won't be able to really "see" it with the visual eye - and you need that.....
Then you can sit there and look and remember and ask yourself really important questions about - real life not what you were told to believe but- what happened........you don't need an interpreter, other than yourself. It's your life, right? "
_______

Quite a dif slant and it makes sense to me. I have problems with forgiveness of my mother and the horrible way she always treated me. I forgave her on her deathbed, whilst she was a vegetable and couldn't speak or understand. I felt extreme guilt that that was what I should do. After she died I found out even more of her assaults that she had planned for me after her death. I felt ripped off that I had forgiven her after finding out what she had in store me me- more stabs, more intentional hurt.

So what Ladeska said made a lot of sense to me. I had never heard anyone take that stand on it.

SD

April 16, 2008
8:59 pm
Avatar
truthBtold
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Maybe there is some truth in Bill Cosby's notion of: "Hurt People...hurt people."

Doesn't excuse.

I long for the day when I can finally say to myself.....it was what it was.......you know?

No more. No less.

It just simply was...what it was.

And it is what it is.

shrug.........

...and that's it.

you know?

pretty much.....end of (sad) story.

It is what it is.

It was what it was.

Acceptance.

Final acceptance.

again....the shrug.

What else can you do.....really?

Really.

It's a loss. Not unlike the death of a loved one.

There is grief, there is anger, there is all of these emotions which eventualy surface.....but - in the end - there is eventual grief of what was never to happen......what was never to be....and in some way and in some deep, quiet place within ourselves.....there is that final acceptance that there are never, ever really losses....not really,.....only blessings.......

(you know????)

Not in the really BIG scheme of things.......you know?

(That's sort of what I'm thinkin.....)

April 16, 2008
9:04 pm
Avatar
truthBtold
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Oh my SD,

I have just now seen your post quoting Ladeska.

Posts crossed.

I will most definently take some time to digest this, as from what I have discovered so far, Ladeska really does make alot of sense and willingly shares her (no doubt) arduous conclusions.

Please be patient as I try to disgest this all...........

April 16, 2008
9:10 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

maybe forgiveness is, when you think about the wrong that was done to you, you dont feel any anger/bitterness at anything or towards the person who did the wrong. In other words, recall of the wrong doesnt effect your mood in any significant negative way.

However, you have all the right to consider the wrong they did, in case you're dealing with them again (forgive but not forget). Thats ok. Thats being wise and using previous data to help making present decisions, so they wouldnt be able to hurt you like that again.

April 16, 2008
10:49 pm
Avatar
MsGuided
Golden Horseshoe.ca
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 104
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ladeska ROCKS! Those are some real gems about forgiveness and all of it rings within my core.

"I'll forgive people who deserve forgiveness and predators - don't and that's that"....there was just so much stuff in there that rang so true, was devoid of brainwashing, doctrin, and status quo.

The act of forgiveness/surrender, and window of "there is good in everyone" is part of the reason society is so corrupt. We just don't face evil straight on and DO something about it.

I also will forgive those with a concience; a semblance of responsability for their hateful, or insecurity acts.

This is why I still see my parents. They have acknowledged they have made mistakes in various ways. Not by sitting down with me and listing it all out in words ( they aren't capable of that) but by actions and responses to my questions, and assertations.

BTW.the buddhist monks sure look angry when they fight the enemy ( china) with the simple robes on their backs and flags.
There is a time to rise to battle. There is a place for anger.
The rest is meant for relative peace.
Submitting to the predator only escalates the problem.imo

April 16, 2008
11:30 pm
Avatar
MsGuided
Golden Horseshoe.ca
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 104
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I mean.. Submitting to the predator, repeatedly, gives them free riegn to increase their hold on us all.

April 16, 2008
11:57 pm
Avatar
red blonde
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

((((tbt))))

It was time for me to take my power back from my mother (her ghost). I needed to do that because I was still allowing her to 'control' from the grave.

red

April 17, 2008
3:55 am
Avatar
Guest
Guests

MsGuided
16-Apr-08

You wrote:

"BTW.the buddhist monks sure look angry when they fight the enemy ( china) with the simple robes on their backs and flags. There is a time to rise to battle. There is a place for anger. The rest is meant for relative peace. Submitting to the predator only escalates the problem.imo"

I see two distinctly different observations here.

1. The emotion of anger - "buddhist monks sure look angry".

2. the actions or behaviour - i.e. "to rise to battle".

The three 'poisons' according to the Buddha are greed, anger and ignorance.

If the Buddhist monks are angry then they are definitely in an emotional state gegarded as highly detrimental to their own selves as well as others. Of course they are human and prone to human failings given enough provocation like all of us.

On the other hand actions such as "to rise to battle" can be motivated by many different things. If the monks were motivated out of loving kindness and compassion "to rise to battle" then whether this action would meet with the Buddha's approval or not, would depend upon the 'wisdom' or 'lack of' underpinning their decision to follow this course of action. Of course, "ignorance" of "lack of wisdom" is one of the Buddha's 'poisons'.

As for their being "a place for anger", I'm doubtful that the Buddha would agree with you on this point. I might put this to some Buddhist 'experts' for a learned opinion.

April 17, 2008
11:58 am
Avatar
red blonde
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I believe there is a place for 'healthy' anger. It is unhealthy when anger is turned inward...which is one cause of depression or 'rage' when it becomes hurtful or harmful.

April 17, 2008
5:24 pm
Avatar
on my way
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have had to get God involved in my forgiveness of other people. I found that I forgave them for one thing, and then it never went away.

For me personally I had to have healing moment where I actually had a literal change of heart....THAT is when I was able to forgive a person and move forward in that relationship.

April 17, 2008
6:02 pm
Avatar
MsGuided
Golden Horseshoe.ca
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 104
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez
Why are you picking on me?

I'm sure you had your share of angry battles to protect SOMETHING important and sacred to you?

That's all i was implying here.

That even the most peacefull will rise to fight an enemy.
But these Monks were from the Jokhang Temple and their authenticity is in question.

It's not like i have time to research every single subject presented here or on the planet?

Still my point was made above.
Peace.

April 17, 2008
10:54 pm
Avatar
Loralei
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If someone hurts you and they are later full of remorse and sincerely apologize and perhaps even try to make it up to you in some way, I think it is possible to eventually forgive them. I would have to trust my gut on whether they were truly sincere. But I don't think anyone deserves forgiveness without the remorse and the apology first.

In those instances where we never get that sincere apology, the victim has to deal with the repurcussions all alone. If it is possible to learn about the background of the perpetrator and possible motivations that may have played a role, that understanding may help you resolve it in your mind and then come to the point of acceptance of what is. I think examination is necessary before you can reach the point of letting it go. I don't think forgiveness is warranted. It's like you said, forgiveness makes it sound like you condoned what they did.

Acceptance of what happened and what is, and then letting it go, walking away from the past and moving on with your life. That's what you need to do for yourself - get to the point of letting go. Hanging onto the pain of the past keeps you mired in the past. The goal is to be free of the past. It would be a shame to let the past ruin the present and your future. Life is short.

April 17, 2008
11:06 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

A looot going on here, TBT! I can hear your thoughts! I will speak of what strikes me most, which is...

In the legal realm, there is a great distinction between say - accidental manslaughter and pre-meditated murder.

There is a scenario like that in Brazil. I haven´t followed much of it b/c its so sad. The father throws the 5-6 y.o. daughter from the 6th floor, so it looks like she died from the fall when in fact she was dead/dying just before from physical abuse, so I hear. (breathe to grieve here). I think of intention. Suppose Isabella (I think thats the girls name) didn´t die, just suppose. Would the father legally "deserve" more years off, ie, less years in prison despite his intention to kill? I think not.

Lets for a moment think of it as euthanasia and cover up. Same question. Ditto answer. Now lets think of abuse. In contrast, abuse would "deserve" even more forgiveness since the victim remains alive. But I think not. The mind of the perpetrator works pretty much the same, to me, with maybe worse intentions and consequences in abuse.

So Is "Forgiveness" just something else we have to finally cross off of our "To Do" list???????

Maybe yes, maybe no. I think of it by the rule of 10% action, 90% reaction. If you forgive and react better/become a better person, which is what you should desire first of all, fine. If not, cross it off your list.

They say a victim only truly heals if s/he forgives and forgets. Can one truly forgive without forgetting? Is forgiving just an intention like a thing in the future as in "will forgive". Im not sure.

I like what you say as in what it was, it was and especially, what it is, it is... Was it Einstein that said that the past, present and future are the kinda same thing? My present therapist spoke of my suicide attempts as maybe the way by which I found my light, force, HP, god, whathaveyou, by which I got here. Im beginning to like me here, despite the way I got here.

TBT, I hope you find meaning in forgiveness if you want to forgive. Otherwise, cross it off your list for now and move on with your blessed life.

hugs,

April 18, 2008
5:41 pm
Avatar
truthBtold
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Going to take me a little time to fully digest it all.

I SO appreciate the wisdom so freely expressed here.

Thanks again.

tBt

April 21, 2008
3:30 pm
Avatar
garfield9547
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

thruthBtold

What a interesting subject. i have wondered myself. Struggle to forgive and wonder if this is really neccesary.

Look at this link

http://www.narcissism.operatio.....veness.htm

just a snip from this article I found

On Forgiveness
Home Contents

These are just my thoughts on it. I present them as an alternative to what blows in the prevailing wind on the subject. I present them for those victimized by malignant narcissists to examine — not to swallow whole as the gospel according to some authority figure. In fact, I don't know whether I am an authority figure or not, but I certainly am no authority. And nobody has any authority over what goes into someone else's head.

How about a parable? Let's say that I steal $10 from you. You come to me and say, "You stole $10 from me. Give it back." I tell you that you're crazy. I deny the offense. What are you going to do about it?

Let's say that your response is to say, "I forgive you."

Now let's get real. What are we to think of you for that?

The first thing people think is, "RED ALERT — probably a false accusation." In other words, we suspect that your "forgiveness" heaps the insult of fraud upon the injury of calumny. Adding insult to injury is an outrage, extreme perversity, the Sin of Sodom.

The other possibility is that you have no power to assert your right to justice and that your so-called forgiveness is but a deceptive way to avoid admitting that. In itself, your powerlessness in the situation is nothing reprehensible, but what does it make of your forgiveness? If it is forced forgiveness, it is extortion. If it is phony forgiveness, it is fraud — under duress, of course, but fraud nonetheless. Either way, it's not legitimate forgiveness and no more valid than a false confession.

Indeed, doing this adulterates your forgiveness. What an awful thing to do to such a precious thing as forgiveness! If I really have stolen from you, why I should I desire such cheap forgiveness as yours? It certainly isn't worth the pain of coming clean. And, if you are so holy, you should not want to discourage me from doing that. In short, your scot-free forgiveness — especially if it's only to save face — is understandable perhaps, but not honorable. Because it's not genuine.

So, this little story would never happen, because your "forgiveness" is bogus, and everybody knows it. In fact, it marks you as indelibly as Cain's answer to the question Where is thy brother? So, that's the real world in the material sphere of action. Why should it be different in the moral sphere of action?

Note that our ancient philosophy, as expressed in the Hebrew, Christian, and Islamic scriptures, uses the same terminology for moral forgiveness as for the forgiveness of a financial debt. Why? Because they are the same thing in different spheres of action.

The parable shows why there is no such thing as the forgiveness of a whole debt. Only some portion of it. In real life, nobody forgives the entire amount of a debt! Some is always repaid before the balance is forgiven. If it weren't, the bank would call the FBI.

That's why you always pay at least $1 for that vehicle your father gave/sold you, don't you? That's the difference between forgiveness and stealing or extortion. That $1 acknowledges the debt/gift. The rest is mercy.

If we turn to the ancient Hebrew, Christian and Islamic writings, we see that the God of Abraham's forgiveness is legitimate, too. He does not forgive the unrepentant. To the contrary, he threatens them with fire and brimstone if they do not repent. Are his devotees not to emulate him?

I think that Catholic theology is the most detailed and precise on this point, though I do not see how secretly revealing my misdeed to a third party in an anonymous confessional amounts to a real confession and how paying that third party whatever he charges me for a penance releases me from my debt to YOU. Nonetheless, there is much common sense here that is taken for granted by the theologians of all Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

I neither accept nor reject notion that, if you believe in God, I owe him something too, as the father of us both. But that would be a separate transaction in a different offense — the one against him in my theft from YOU. At worst, I am disobeying his rules and causing him some grief in the harm done to YOU. So, I don't see how a just God could be satisfied if YOU ain't. If I don't have to make amends to YOU, he is just be profiteering on sin that harms only YOU. Only when the debt is material, such as through the theft of money, do the Catholic authorities require restitution. Otherwise they seem to see no harm done to the human victim. I do. That is why I here deal with my debt to YOU and leave my debt to any God for others to argue about.

This theory says that I owe you your $10 plus a penalty for stealing it from you. Let's say that a fair penalty is another $10. So I owe you $20.

Why the penalty? Because I wasn't born yesterday! If there is no penalty, the most I can loose is the $10 I stole. Then the bottom line is that I owe zero. So, I have no reason not to try again tomorrow. Unless I'm a complete idiot, I will keep trying to steal $10 dollars from you until I eventually get away with it. It's kinda like free gambling.

Now, how do I relieve myself of this $20 debt to you? Catholic/Protestant doctrine neatly breaks my obligation down into four distinct acts:

· Confession: I must own/acknowledge what I have done.

· Contrition: I must show remorse for it. Thus I acknowledge that what I did was WRONG.

· Penance: I must acknowledge my obligation to pay you $10 + $10 = $20. That's the amount of the theft plus a penalty for theft. In other words, I must amend the damage and pay a penalty to boot.

· Firm Purpose of Amendment: I must show that I am determined to never steal from you again.

Your reaction? You are overjoyed! You appreciate what I have done by considering my means and showing mercy. You say, "Thank you! Just pay me $15 and we are even."

That's why they call it "reconciliation."

In other words, merciful you forgives a portion of my debt. Which is exactly what the God of Abraham does in "remitting sin." If people are required to be fools who forgive the whole thing, I am idiot if I don't shed crocodile tears before the judge at my sentencing.

Indeed, Christian theology says the Unforgivable Sin is the unrepented sin, the unacknowledged sin. Yet the winds of political correctness would have us let that slip our minds.....

What is your thoughts on this?

Love

Garfield

Forum Timezone: UTC -8

Most Users Ever Online: 247

Currently Online:
50 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

onedaythiswillpass: 1134

zarathustra: 562

StronginHim77: 453

free: 433

2013ways: 431

curious64: 408

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 49

Members: 110835

Moderators: 5

Admins: 3

Forum Stats:

Groups: 8

Forums: 74

Topics: 38534

Posts: 714189

Newest Members:

nbvjczDazy, Catincatop, maryellentm1, gtnefDazy, cbkzDazy, LillianDazy

Moderators: arochaIB: 1, devadmin: 9, Tincho: 0, Donn Gruta: 0, Germain Palacios: 0

Administrators: admin: 21, ShiningLight: 572, emily430: 29

Copyright © 2019 MH Sub I, LLC. All rights reserved. Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Policy | Health Disclaimer