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Prayer:
February 3, 2005
11:40 pm
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on my way
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I repeat...FREE WILL. Maybe our free will, not all of it good has produced the negative energy to make these things happen.
Let's look at the other side of the spectrum...what do you think would happen to our world if God did intervene in every event?

Anyone want to talk about what the definition of free will may be?

And again, this is a thought provoking thread. Up until this time I also questioned how certain catastrophic events happened.

February 3, 2005
11:52 pm
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How can you put a gender to this energy tat is Ggod? Think about the implications of that!

I have been the whole gamut of Catholic to varieties of Chritianity. Full circle. Now I believe in an intelligent energy that may be loving but does not intevene with the experience created here. This plane is an experiental plane and this is how it knows itself. "Ggod"

We, (as Ren'ai said) are the god. We have within the spirit of the energy and the ability to create our existence. If we keep on we will be done with this plane and on to another? Who knows.

Religion is man made but faith comes from within. It really can blend, these ideas, if we'd all just agree to disagree and that each holds possibility.

February 4, 2005
2:41 pm
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I am a Christian. If God says it, to me, then it is. Religion is man-made, which is why so many people stumble. Of course I am just speaking for me, but I would not trade my life, or relationship with God for anything in this world.

February 4, 2005
2:56 pm
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My belief is that "Satan" and "God" are one in the same. "Satan" is the man who will rape his 14 year-old daughter after he just finished preaching a sermon. (Yes, this actually happened to someone I know...)

"God" is her choice to live long and well despite her hardships, while working diligently not to perpetuate the cycle of abuse. Hence, "God force" springing forth from "Satanic force." If Satanic force results in goodness, then how can it be inherently evil?

Herein lies the critical power of free will. This man chooses to be a Pastor and Pedophile. His daughter chooses to help the wounded because there was no one to help her. This man could have made different choices. The same for my friend.

Free will.

Love to all,

Ren'ai

February 4, 2005
11:13 pm
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on my way

On the 3-Feb-05 you said:

"I repeat...FREE WILL. ..."

And I repeat!

If a man rapes, pillages and murders because he has been engineered by God with both the 'predisposition' to become a monster and the 'free will' to do so, then God must be either:

1. indirectly causing the horror.

2. Or willing it to happen by permiting it - whatever being the reasons, whether it be in our best interests or otherwise.

3. Or God hasn't the power to stop it.

4. Or he doesn't know that it is happening.

What other option do you see to explain Auschwitz???

If Auschwitz was in the best interests of its inmates then how was it so?

If the happenings at Auschwitz were not in the inmates best interests, then God is either:

1. Not unconditionally loving.

2. Or not all powerful.

3. or not all knowing.

Logic 101 again.

Which is it???

February 5, 2005
12:19 am
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Tez it is free will, free will, free will. I think we both understand what free will is. We just believe in different Gods. And you are entitled to believe what ever you want, becaue you have free will. I don't question God's existence or His power, because for me I don't need too.
I know some of these things, our history is confusing. I have read and studied Auschwitz, and to see the faces of the people who survived on the news just recently broke my heart. The Jews. I know another Jew who died a horrible death though, Jesus Christ. The Jews have suffered all throughout history. Can I explain it? no. But it does not affect my faith or what I beleive in, I just beleive.

I really like your questions though, and have enjoyed readng some of your threads. It is obvious that you have studied and worked and thought much about the human dilemma & how we have gotten to be who and where we are. And now, GW wants to dump our social security....THIS bothers me to no end.

February 6, 2005
8:51 pm
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On my way.

You said:

"We just believe in different Gods."

I don't believe in the existence of a God by the definitions of Godhood ascribed to in the Judeo-Christian faiths.

I wouldnot even use the word God to refer to anything other than a myth that emanates out of humanities:

1. fear of death and retribution.

2. desire to ascribe a 'watchmaker' as a cause for the intricacies of the 'cosmic watch'; a desire driven by the need to 'know and control'.

Prayer is mankind's attempt to manipulate a God that exists only in their imagination; an imagination unbounded by reason.

Blind faith, without rationality to substantiate it, is a prerequisite for such a shaky, unfounded faith.

If you were born in India the chances are you would be a member of the Hindi faith and have a very different God. If you were born in Shri Lanka you may well have no belief in God at all; you would probably be a practicing Theravadan Buddhist. Does that thought ever occur to you?

Prayer is either:

1. barter or

2. beggary or

3. blind, unreasoning arrogance in assuming that the praying person knows more than his/her God for what is perceived to be needed.

Praying to a God is like tiny little children begging Father Christmas for a packet of razor blades with which to play on Christmas morning. Hmmmmm!

February 6, 2005
10:17 pm
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When I read your reply, my first response was just a simple "OK."

Then I noticed that I felt that you are really trying to seek answers, that you seem angry. Pick up The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel and read if you want too, if you don't then don't. But you seem hell bent on trying to find answers contrary to what you state you believe.

Lee Strobel was an attorney, newspaper columnist who was determined to disprove God's existence, Jesus Christ's existence....and the more he tried, the more he couldn't disprove it.
It isn't up to me to prove it, I know what I believe, it is your choice to want to know it, and for that, you have free will and so do I.

You have an awesome mind, you really do. Think of how it would be in the hands of our Creator, God. That is my belief.

February 10, 2005
9:12 am
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Tez,

I think you've missed God's point. My understanding is that we live in a fallen world because of sin that entered this world through Adam and Eve. Natural disasters, disease, etc. happen as a result of the world's (and people's) now imperfect nature.

Yes, God is allowing all of these things to happen. Yes, he could have stopped the Holocaust. He could have stopped the tsunami. God can do anything. Yet, he chooses to let these things happen? Why? Not because they are for people's own good. Where in the Bible does it say that??? The Bible tells us that God is sovereign. It also tells us that a time is coming when there will be a new heaven and new earth, when God will wipe every tear from our eyes, when the lion will lay down with the lamb, when we will learn war no more.

It has more to do with God's perfect timing, and I believe God is letting people see just how much they need Him. The holocaust is an example of man's inhumanity to man. It shows us how sinful man is, and how apart from God we are heaped in sorrow and pain.

jill

February 10, 2005
12:06 pm
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SweetAmanda
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That is a really hard thing to think about Jill. Even for Christians. God's Sovereignty. I heard a wonderful pastor speak about it...

I don't remember it all, but he said something like:

"Christians will say 'amen!' when you say that God is Love. But when you say 'God is Sovereign' you have some that wonder how?"

It was something like that. And it's true. That is the single most asked, most sought after, most agonized question of man. Ever.

There are times when I get angry and depressed and start to wonder all over again.

It's kind of like the whole thing with being codependent. What kind of love is it if all you do is bail a person out of trouble? We put ourselves in this mess. It's unfair that generations upon generations have to pay for the sins of their ancestors, yes. But that's the way it is. Who are we to shake our fists and try to change things?

The way I figure it is like this: I know that God exists. To me, there can be no denying that fact. So, no matter what I think or feel about Him, I believe in Him. I will try to do what he says, even though sometimes I don't like it. Even though sometimes it doesn't make any sense. He is God, which’s why I will follow His commands.

I'm not a parent, but I think it's easier for a mom or dad to understand: "Can you trust me, can you listen to what I say, and follow my directions even though you do not fully understand?"

February 11, 2005
8:30 pm
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On my way.

You said:

" ... you seem angry ..."

Not really ... I'm more flabergasted that so many of my fellow human beings blindly believe what is written in a book without any questioning of this man made propaganda; writings that have been perpetrated in the cause of controlling through fear the behavior of their fellow humans.

Calling what is written in the bible God's word is mind blowing ignorance; an ignorance based upon both blind faith in the intelligence of those who interpret and dissipate the contents and a complete lack of faith in their own abilities to reason. Or perhaps laziness and fear conspire to cause the abnegation of their responsibility to think for themselves.

Nothing much has changed since the middle ages where priests alone had the recognized god given ability and responsibility to interprete the bible for the 'nong nong' masses who couldn't read, nor write nor think for themselves.

Then along came Martin Luther; a guy who did start to think for himself. But then he stopped short of the questions that I have posed in previous postings regarding the 'three prerequisites' for holding the position of being the Christian God. And what did the Church of Rome do to dear old Martin in the name of the loving Christian God!! The inquisitor I believe. Hmmm!!

Make no bones about it, if Christ came to this earth today with a different name and still preaching his original message, not the one projected by today's clergy, he would be crucified all over again. Only this time it would be crucifixion by media through vilification, ridicule and public ostrafication. He would be regarded as a heretical cult leader. As you can see I differentiate between Christ and his severely concatenated and misinterpreted teachings that are attributed to him today by the modern day 'pharisees'- those 'whited sepulchres'.

Surely a loving God, were he to exist at all, would want humanity to use the powers of reason and rational thinking in order to separate the wheat of rational belief from the chaff of the waffle of religious, powerbroking hypocrites who still wield immense power from positions of political and religious authority. I think you know to whom I refer.

February 11, 2005
9:03 pm
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Jastypes.

You said:

"I think you've missed God's point. "

If by this you mean the "point" attributed to God by conventional Christian religions today, I would say to you: "Me thinketh not."

I have read and pondered the 'party line' as expressed in your posting a great many times over the years. It is a highly standardized response showing the nature and extent of brainwashing of the masses in Christian countries. I find it no different in Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim countries. Karl Marx said that: "religion is the opiate of the masses". That is:"Do what God wants and you will be OK no matter what. Otherwise ...." And where does one go to find the word of God? the Bhagavad Gita of course ... or is it the Granth ... or the Koran ... or the Rig Vedas ... or the Upanishads ... or the Toa ... or the Tripitaka ... even at a last resort, the Bible. There is as much justification for choosing any one of the above scriptures as any other. Most stick to what was brainwashed into them as a child as being the 'Word of God'. However the intellect is a powerful tool of discrimination that allows an informed choice to be made prior to choosing to believe one in preference to another. Few choose to use the intellect preferring the easy option of maintaining their ignorance through remaining in the first brainwashed option.

And you said:

"Yet, he chooses to let these things happen? Why? Not because they are for people's own good. Where in the Bible does it say that???"

Well ... now if God doesn't and hasn't acted in the best interests of his creation then he is indesputably NOT an unconditionally loving god.

Is this your concept of your God? One who loves you only conditionally?

A conditionally loving god is a 'merchant' god who trades love for human behavior that is desired by him. Hmmmmm!! Here we now have a God who has desires and needs; an anthropomorphic god; one who has human straits, characteristics and weaknesses.

The bible says that we were created by God in His own image and likeness; herein the bible posits the existence of an anthropomorphic God. Since it was written by primitive scribes in ancient Judea, I am not surprised by this assertion.

Why not believe in Santa Clause? His existence and characteristics have more credibility and coherence than the conditionally loving God of the bible!

February 11, 2005
10:27 pm
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Tez, just curious, What do you think of Billy Graham?

February 11, 2005
10:37 pm
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Tez, this is the last post from me to you. I read your posts and it really saddens me, but then we are all entitled to believe what we want to believe. I used to be like you. My IQ is 160. I also debated "religion" until I was blue in the face. And now, I can honestly say that I know the difference between man made religions, and Christianity, which is about relationship, a personal living relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I would never go back to my intellectual prison, never. So my intellectual friend, you are missing out. And I can say this to you, because I have been where you are. I have examined it over and over and over. I will never go back. God is real. Jesus Christ is alive and real, and I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

February 12, 2005
6:14 pm
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"Tez, just curious, What do you think of Billy Graham?"

I've been around since Billy Graham's first crusades around the world. I've heard his message many times. In the late 1950's, a very young girl with whom I worked, was emotionally overcome with her zeal for Graham's whole campaign in Australia. She tried hard to convince me to go to see Billy Graham. I saw immediately that both emotion and mass hypnotism underpinned Graham's power over his unthinking deciples. No, I don't think any more of Billy Graham than any other person who lives high on the hog making money out of hawking his tired old emotionally charged story to the masses whilst attaining fame and wealth from his showmanship.

This is the problem with letting one's emotions be used as the 'bait' for these evangelists - emotions are not rational of themselves and as a tool for discrimination between what makes sense and what is nonsense, they are just about useless. The 50% of broken marriages that result from both badly and emotionally chosen partners atest to that.

Neither Billy Graham, Benny Hinn, the Bakers nor any of their proselytizing counterparts can reconcile the three prerequisites of the Christian God with the accounts given in the Bible about God's exploits. I still await this impossible reconciliation.

How would a loving God ever play favorites with races?? It was Paul(Saul) after severe clashes with the foundling fathers of the Christian religion who ever took this offshoot sect of Judaism to the gentiles! I'm not even sure that Christ even intended to found a 'Christian' church as we know it today at all. I suspect that Christ was about reforming Judaism by bringing back a better balance of love and law. After all the word 'church' or anything like it wasn't used by Christ. Christ went to synagogues not churches.

I doubt that Christ ever even said "Thou art Peter the rock and upon this rock I will build my church." Church is an english word that was inserted into the early biblical translations in olde England.

I suspect that Christ may have appointed Peter as leader amongst his reformers and given him the task of overseeing the carrying of his message to all Jews who would listen. Whilst Christ didn't object to gentiles being his followers as is evidenced by the 'conversion' of the odd Roman soldier, he was primarily first and foremost a Jew.

Because of the massive friction between the Pauline faction and the James faction of early Christianity, combined with James's conviction that Paul was wrong in taking his version of Christianity to the gentiles and the fact that Paul never knew Christ but James being Christ's brother did, I am convinced that Christ was not about forming a splinter group religion at all.

Paul was the father of institutionalized Christianity not James and Paul was a reformed pharisee and an extremist fanatic! Apart from the 'Peter the Rock' pronouncements, both the stories of the good Samaritan and the gentile woman at the well are often used as very slim evidence of Christ's will being for the globalization of his so called 'church'. Christ if he were alive today would be appalled by the divisions and fragmentation of all the religions of the world. I doubt that he would ride in one of Billy Graham's limosines either unless trying to convince Graham to give his wealth to the poor and to take up his cross an follow Christ. I would expect to find Christ in parks, in Harlem, the Bronx, in Iraq, Afghanistan, India, in the Vatican, in Mecca. I'm sure that he would use TV and the internet as well. He may even challenge the Pope in the Vatican like he did the money changers, until he was ousted by the Papal guards. I doubt that Christ would favor one sect over another albeit whether they were 'Christian' or not.

In summary, I doubt that Christ would 'own' the Christian message as it is preached and enacted by any minister, priest or evangelist today!!

February 12, 2005
6:51 pm
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SweetAmanda

On the 10-Feb-05 in speaking about your God, you said:

"I will try to do what he says, even though sometimes I don't like it. Even though sometimes it doesn't make any sense. He is God, which’s why I will follow His commands."

From where do you get God's commands - voices in your head, the bible, your church pastor?

If "it doesn't make any sense" could it possibly be that the sources of your 'God's' "commands" are man made and not from any God of any kind?

If you were born in India of Indian parents, do you think your concept of God would be even remotely like the one you have now?

If you choose not to explore all sources claimed to be from 'God' then are you not condemning yourself to blindly believe in the blinkered beliefs conditioned into you as a child?

The danger of this irrational blind faith, I see, is the inability to cope with the life shattering effects of tragedy in your life; tragedy that ministers will explain away with waffle such as:

1 "it is the will of God" or

2 "suffering is a mystery" or

3 "take up your cross and suffer for Christ's sake" or

4 "offer it up as reparation for your sins".

Priests, pastors and church elders offer many other facile remarks in their pathetic - albeit well-intentioned - attempts to ameliorate suffering, remarks that are tantamount to purile claptrap and little else.

The concept of the Christ as the 'sacrificial lamb of God', who was butchered on the cross in reparation for the sins of mankind, is both odious in the extreme and an inheritance from the days of the Hebrew sacrifices of newborn lambs on their altars in order to appease Yehweh. Hmmmm!!

Blood sacrifices, whether that inherent in the doctrine of transubstantiation that underpins the 'bread and wine' being mysteriously converted into the 'body and blood' of Christ being inbibed in every Sunday Mass in reparation of our sins, or in some voodoo ceremony, it is all very primitive attempts to secure our life in the now and in the hereafter.

The concept of reconciliation with some 'all powerful fatherly, anthropomorphic God in the sky' is fear based, emotionally driven and very primitive. 21st century humanity would do well to seek a better way of dealing with existential fear.

February 12, 2005
7:32 pm
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You know, I used to worry about all that. Did someone make up the Bible? What about all the predatory Christian preachers like Benny Hinn? Maybe i should become a Rasta and bang a gong three times a day, telling the Pope (the Anti-Christ) that there is no place he can hide?

Then i just decided not to worry about it. I decided to pray and meditate and listen to God. Then wonderful things started happening in my life. I am a Christian. I go to church very seldom. I am not baptised. May someday, i don't know. I grew up in a household and family of liberal Southern Baptists (which is something in itself) and my father came from the Holy Rollers, I think, which absolutely turned him off of any organised religion. Though he remained a Diaist (sp) and has recently become more spiritual from a christian point of view.

It took me decades to get over my idea of a wrathful God. I intellectualized everything. I explored my facets of all of that. I could tell you the names of the devils and demons, having studied ritual magic for years. I have prayed to Satan. I have prayed to the Goddess. I have prayed to the old gods and the spirits of the earth. No one answered. I gave up.

Then I had an awesome spiritual experience. It started out with ny coming to grips with the idea of forgiveness. I always felt that Judas was set up. And then after he played his part, he was cast aside and damned. But The Bible never states if he was forgiven. And if Judas couldn't be forgiven, how could I ever be forgiven? Then it came to me, after reading about it, that Judas never asked for forgiveness. So I asked. And I was forvigen. How do I know? I just do. God Began moving in my life. God and Christ.

I then began asking for the Holy Spirit to touch me. You read about how all these Christians are touched by the Holy Spirit and this miraclelous stuff happens. One night, I was touched in my sleep. I woke and the Holy Spirit removed a veil from my eyes and I saw my life. It was both freeing and terrifying. Some might say i had a stroke or massive potassium depletion. I still haven't regained the strength in my right arm. It was that awesome. It doesn't matter. I know what happened.

I have had a lot of supernatural things happen in my life. I have seen evil. Those experiences are for another thread. But this is good. I know it and feel it.

I have no problem with any other form of religion, as long as it is not oppressive. My feeling is that we all pray to the same God, whether we realize it or not.

And yes, I think that Christ would kick the ass of many of the preachers, priests and evangelists today.

Gully

February 13, 2005
2:53 pm
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Tez,
I just read your poem on teh visitor's page. I don't understand, it seems to contradict all that you say here, on these threads. Your poem is ver spiritual and based on a belief in God, love, the cross. So, why do you banter against God, or have I totally misunderstood you?

February 13, 2005
5:10 pm
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Tez, I am going to print all of this out, and read it later. It interests me very much. I have been thinking a lot about all of this. I know I don’t talk much on these types of threads. Why? I don’t know what to say. I don’t want to say the wrong thing. I don’t want to add fuel to the fire, and I do not want to give you any wrong ideas. So I stay quiet, read and think.

I have always thought, even as a young child, that if Jesus were here today, he would not be accepted among many of our religious leaders.

Tez- Jesus died with things left undone. He knew this. He knew that we are only human. He knew very well that we would take everything He taught and twist it. He knew some would totally reject him. But he died for us anyway. That’s what the bottom line is.

Not who’s right, or who’s wrong. Because only Jesus is right.

The fact is that every person, who has ever lived (besides Jesus) has been fully human. Meaning – CAPABLE OF SIN. Meaning – FALLIBLE.

Only God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit have the Honor and the Power of being truly perfect.

Just because I am a Christian that doesn't mean I am any better than anyone else is. Anyone.

I am forgiven. That's the difference. And I am thankful.

Jesus Loves You!

~Amanda~

February 13, 2005
5:24 pm
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Heya Gully. =)

BTW, were you able to get to the hospital for an IV of potassium? LOL

just kidding.

I love you (((Hugs)))

February 14, 2005
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I was looking for your reply here, Tez. Perhaps you have not responded yet. I will look tommarrow.

February 14, 2005
2:47 am
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sewunique

On the Openmindedness thread you said:

"So may I ask, Tez, what is your purpose in bantering around all these ideas everyone posts about prayer and their beliefs?

My purpose is what seems to me to be a futile attempt to prize open minds that are blinkered by the blind faith that the bible is the word of a Christian God of the three prerequisite characteristics; characteristics that have been defined by Christian 'authorities' over the ages. It is like cracking a walnut with bare hands - not impossible but certainly challenging.

And you asked:

"Do you STILL believe in God? or, a god?"

No, not the God or god of your understanding that is defined and described in the Book of Job and in so many other places in the bible.

I do not believe in the separate and independent existence of any God, person, animal, vegetable, mineral, place or 'thing' of any kind.

Please note and focus upon the words "separate and independent existence". From my perspective all 'separation' is a construct of preconditioned mind and a delusion. That is my belief - all is 'interdependent' no matter how slight and obscured that interdependency might seem;"A butterfly flaps his wings in Australia and an earthquake erupts in Japan." Unrelated? I think not. Is the connection measurable and definable? I also think not.

In the context of my beliefs as expressed above, the word 'God' is meaningless. I believe that the concept of the Christian God as being a 'separate supreme being' of the attributes ascribed to by Christian theologions is nonsensical and irrational. That's what my 'crap detector' tells me.

However, I do believe in the existence of a 'higher' 'Self' that both permeates and is indivisible from any part of 'All that is', with the quality of a boundarilessness that makes all references to a self or Self other than something else as meaningless.

February 14, 2005
3:05 am
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SweetAmanda.

Hey, I have to say that I like you guys. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time responding.

Now down to it. On the Openmindedness thread you said:

"(There are, God has established them for us) there will be people who think that those who believe in those absolutes are being 'close-minded'."

You unquestioningly and irrationally believe that your initial premise that "God has established" absolute truths "for us" is true. You, contrary to all reason, further seem to believe that these 'absolute' truths are to be found in your and/or your Christian 'superiors' interpretations of the many translations of the written words of old manuscripts bundled into the bible by the early Christians centuries after Christ's death; manuscripts not written by any one man but many with the exclusion of Jesus Christ himself.

For veracity, if you depend on the concept of the God inspired nature of the Bible, then I find this concept even more repugnant on the basis of justice alone. What unconditionally loving, all knowing all powerful God would inspire just one set of scriptures to the exclusion of all others?? Such a concept flies in the face of reason. Such a God would inspire all or none.

February 14, 2005
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I will think about what you just said and I will get back to you. =)

February 14, 2005
3:49 am
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SweetAmanda

You said:

"I don’t want to say the wrong thing. I don’t want to add fuel to the fire, and I do not want to give you any wrong ideas. So I stay quiet, read and think."

Luv yah! You are indeed sweet. You have an important contribution to make. If you speak your truth how can you possibly "say the wrong thing" or give me "wrong ideas". I may misunderstand what you say - but then that is my doing not yours.

I feel kinda guilty 'hoeing' into your beliefs. But ... if it makes you and others think about beliefs and past conditioning, it will only result in you getting to what you really believe, not what someone else has conditioned you to believe.

Remember ... we were all given the so called 'answers' long before we really began to even formulate, let alone ask, the questions that 'life' demands that each of us answer.

On 13-Feb-05 you said:

"Not who’s right, or who’s wrong. Because only Jesus is right."

Well ... in the bible Christ reportedly said in his dying hours on the cross: "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me." Was Christ right? Was he truly forsaken? Or was he just misreported? Or was he delusional? Or was he just a man dying on the cross - albeit a very courageous one who was true to his own beliefs to the bitter end. This only one of many texts in the bible that are very controversial from the Christian doctrinal perspective.

And:

"The fact is that every person, who has ever lived (besides Jesus) has been fully human. Meaning – CAPABLE OF SIN. Meaning – FALLIBLE."

Whoops! Don't let, Pope John Paul, the direct inheritor of the authority of Christ through Peter the Rock, hear you say that, when he pontificates upon the true teachings of Christ and his Church on earth. "Thou art Peter the Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Whatsoever you bind on earth it will be bound in heaven. Whatsoever you loose on earth it shall be loosed also in heaven." - JC ( all this quoted from memory so forgive any slight misquoting)

"Only God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit have the Honor and the Power of being truly perfect."

"Be ye perfect like our Father in Heaven." - JC. Was Christ directing us to do the impossible? Or we already 'perfect' in our 'imperfection'?

Hmmm! The 'Mystery' of the Blessed Trinity - three persons in one God. It is a 'mystery' all right; a mystery hypothecated but highly unsubstantiated by the early church many years after Christ's death. Blind beliefs, that is irrational, are always classed as a 'Mystery' when it suits the church hierarchy.

Abd you said:

"I am forgiven. That's the difference. And I am thankful. "

Oh ... Sweet Amanda what possible thing could you have ever done that warrant the forgivness of your God??? An all knowing God would know all the preconditioning that has gone into what you have done in your life. Such a God would know infinitely more about you than you could ever know.

Besides forgiveness presupposes that your God took offense. How could any all knowing, all powerful and more importantly all unconditionally loving God ever take offence in the first place?? He couldn't and the concept of God's forgiveness is nonsense that emanates from the Patriarchal religion of Judaism wherein the anthropomorpic characteristics of a harsh, judgmental human father were projected by the pharisees amd others into their concepts of Yehweh, or the Jehovah of the bible.

If there is a heaven and a God of the three prerequisites mentioned many times before, you are bound to be there as will all of creation without exception.

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