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Prayer:
January 21, 2005
2:26 pm
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mamacinnamon
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I didn't want to put it under support because of the many different beliefs, and I know some folks have stated scripture quoting hinders them. I don't want that. So, thanks for coming over here to read.

To go further w/ what Sew was saying....

John 14:14 says, Jesus said,"If you ask anything in My name, I will do it".

That is His promise to us. So say to Him, "Lord, touch me with Your healing love and power. Meet my every need and open up my understanding to all You have for me where I am right now. Reveal Yourself to me in every situation I face. Show me what I need to see and tell me what I need to know. Enable me to do what I have to do. For I know that without You, I can do nothing."

We mustn't be discouraged if the answers to our prayers don't seem to come right away. Sometimes it takes a while. And often we don't even recognize the answers to our own prayers because they are not answered in the way or time we thought they would be. We can't limit God to our timetable. Our job is to pray. God's job is to answer. We can trust that God always hears our prayers; something is happening whether we can see it or not.

Matthew 21:22 says, If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

John 14:12-14 says, "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in Me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask Me for anything in My name, and I will do it".

1 John 5:14 says, This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that is we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him.

This is pertaining to praying for us, not praying for material things. The Bible says other things about that.

Ren'ai - I hope this helps and gives you comfort.

Sew - I hope this is what you were wanting said.

January 21, 2005
2:56 pm
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sewunique
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Thaank you mam C, yes that was what I was looking for. Doesn't it say something about to be dilegent in your seeking answers with prayer? Do you have a reference for that? I am so sad when I come 'upstairs' here to Libs now. I pray for peace and comfort and the gift of healing of our friends here. What does it say about paying in numbers, in groups? we need our prayer line back. Can this be it now? Many of us need to seek out in prayer together to come as a group. I hope what I am saying here is okay.

Love and hugs to you,

Sew/C

January 21, 2005
3:01 pm
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sewunique
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I believe in miracles. I saw them over and over when my mother lost her speech after her anyreusm for that year. I found peace to a lifetime of hardship with her. I still have that peace since she passed on this last March. Prayers were answered without me even saying a proper prayer. Many miracles happened last year and even when I wasn't asking for them. His comfort and guidance was so wonderful.

January 21, 2005
4:04 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Sew: I know what you are saying about praying diligent. It does say pray unceasingly. My concordence didn't have any references regarding diligent and prayers. It was more diligent in working. Might check yours.

January 21, 2005
7:30 pm
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Thank you very much for the scripture and for taking the time to write all of this out for me.

I also believe that "god" will give me what I ask for. It's just that I don't think I know enough to be the one telling "god" what to do. I don't know if this makes sense. I mean, what if I ask god to have my mother live when what she wants is to die in peace? What if her death would be the catalyst for a miraculous spiritual transformation for one or many people? This is why I would rather leave the decisions in the hands of the Higher Powers and work on acceptance and love through the anger and grief if what happens isn't what I wanted.

I believe in miracles. If one is warranted in this case, then it is already done...

I try to find peace in these thoughts, but my heart is heavy and all I can think about at the moment, I'm ashamed to say, is that I'd like to get fucked up on some pain killers and weed... This, too, shall pass...

I love you all very, VERY much!!!

Ren'ai

January 22, 2005
12:05 am
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mamacinnamon
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Ren'ai:

Don't be so hard on yourself. It is hard to watch your loved ones suffer. You have alot to deal w/ anyway.

I personally pray and sometimes I ask specifics and sometimes I just say "God, your will be done". Even when I pray for specifics I pray for God's will to be done. After all, he already knows what the end is.

Will keep praying for mom and daughter. Please keep us posted.

January 22, 2005
2:37 pm
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MamaC, what a great thread!

January 23, 2005
6:18 pm
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If there exists an all knowing, all powerful and unconditionally loving God, then, because of these very attributes, all things must be in accordance with His will and therefore be either caused or permitted by Him - without exception. The existence of Satan and together with all His actions must also be either caused or permitted by God, the creator of all things.

If all things, including Satan, are either caused or permitted by God AND this God is unconditionally loving, then everything that happens to us must be in our own best interests.

Whoops!!! How can eternal damnation in the 'fires of hell', no matter what the reason, be in our best interests???

How can the existence of Satan, the all powerful, all knowing but NOT unconditionally loving tempter of weak human beings, be in our own best interests??

Spot the flaw in the above logic - if one exists, that is.

Perhaps the 'flaw' in the above logic is the initial assertion. Perhaps no such God, with the above three attributes, exists in the first instance. Too whom then would we all be praying?? To a conditionally loving God? Satan fits the definition for a conditionally loving God that has to be begged by praying in order to receive what is in our best interests in the first place.

Or perhaps as some past writers have suggested, Satan is the 'other face' of the one God!!

Or perhaps neither Satan nor God exists except as primitive yearnings of irrational, mortal, vulnerable human beings in wanting to have someone to 'blame' and someone to 'save' them respectively.

January 23, 2005
7:22 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Tez,

You put out alot to think about. I don't have any answers for you unfortunately. All I can do is explain where I stand in my beliefs, which I in no way try to put off onto anyone else. Whose to say whose religion, belief, God, etc. is the correct answer. I don't condemn anyone for their beliefs, and I do not push my beliefs off on anyone else that doesn't want to hear.

So, I guess where I stand is stated in Josua 24:15. As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

January 23, 2005
9:12 pm
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Tez,

Quite a load of thoughtfulness in your post. My own resolve to this same questioning has been; we have free will. Our choices. Our decisions. It may be simplistic, however this is where I have come to this point in my own life. I have been to many different religious affiliations, and viewed other forms of spirituality theories, and have personal questions about each one. Yet, I come back to my first statement and also, that we are humans with imperfections, no matter how high a level we attain in our spirituality.

Sew

January 25, 2005
8:10 pm
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Sewunique.

If a human being has multiple choices but only sees two then how free is that person's "free will"? Is not that person's ignorance of the other choices a constraint on that "free will"? Only if one were omniscient and omnipotent would one have a truly "free will". Such a person, whether conditionally or unconditionally loving, would be elligible for the title of a god.

If an all powerful, all knowing God exists, one who allows us to choose out of our ignorance that which is not in our best interests, then that God is not unconditionally loving. Therefore either any choice that we make is in our best interests no matter what, or a god exists who is either not all powerful, or not all knowing or not unconditionally loving.

Is this not indesputable logic??

If one is to conclude that valid logic is of no value when choosing a religious belief, then any ol' creed that makes a person feel good will do.

I find it amusing that the majority of people reared in a Christian country remain Christians - at least nominally; likewise for other religions.

Only people who have attained sufficient 'freedom' to be critical of their own beliefs are able to step out of the entrapment of their previous conditioning to challenge their own irrational beliefs.

Most people seem to cling to their beliefs about their various concepts of their god as drowning men do to their 'lifeboats'. They seem to think "My 'lifeboat' is the real one that will save me, not yours." Hmmmm! Saved from what for what??? Who or what is it that is being saved?? A soul?? - unsustainable Greek mythology unquestioningly adopted by many but not all religions.

January 25, 2005
9:29 pm
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Mamacinnamon

You said:

"I do not push my beliefs off on anyone else that doesn't want to hear"

I wasn't either thinking or stating that you were. Nor am I pushing my beliefs. What I am doing is critically questioning and analysing the rationality of what is presented here on this thread as 'praying to a loving God'.

But I'll extend that a little because you did quote from the bible when you said:

"So, I guess where I stand is stated in Josua 24:15. As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."

Seeing that you quoted from one of their books, are you are follower of Judaism?

Which lord is it that you serve? Yehweh, the God that demands blood sacrifices for reconciliation and appeasement or Christ the sacrificial lamb who was supposedly sacrificed on the 'Judaic altar'; an altar which is now symbolized by the cross.

Why was it necessary or just for Jesus to be scapegoated for human behavior that was based upon human failings; failings which were created by a blood-lusting Hebrew god in the first place?

Do you seek out and read the rest of the Judaic scriptures not included in the bible? Or are you a follower of that offshoot sect of Judaism, called Christianity.

If so, do you accept that the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in the fourth century was 'god inspired' and knew what to discard and what to include for future generations of Christians? If so then this 'blind faith based' acceptance is the anathema of rational thinking. If you do not believe in Constantine's pipeline to god, what about the thousands of scriptural writings that were discarded by him and his politically appointed bishops? Do you seriously think that you have access to a significant portion of Christ's actual teachings?

Paul largely decided what it was that the gentiles and thus Rome's Emporer Constantine got to know of Jesus in the first place. Paul was often 'at odds' with James, Jesus's brother and even Peter. But Paul never met Christ in the flesh only in a 'vision'. James and Peter did! Since Paul's knowledge of Christ's teachings was all secondhand, how would Paul know what Christ actually taught? Or was Paul's spiritual experiences schizophrenia perhaps? That would most probably be modern medicine's diagnosis of patients today claiming Pauline-like visual and auditory hallucinations of Jesus. After all P(S)aul's persecution of the Christians was fanatical and obsessive. Hmmm!

Have you read the Gospel of St. Thomas found amongst other lost gospels contained in the ancient parchments located at Nag Hammadi in 1945?? Fortunately, Constantine missed destroying them in his purgation of the Christian belief system at Nicea in 352 AD!

Have you ever seriously been involved in looking into other religious belief systems?

Do you feel comfortable with questioning and applying the fundamental rules of logic to your own beliefs?

If your answer is 'no' then do you consider yourself truly 'free' to choose what you believe? Or is your freedom curtailed by your lack of informed choices.

Perhaps Father Christmas would make a better deity to which to pray. After all, he is omniscient in knowing what all the children in the world want for Christmas. He also has the unlimited power to deliver, though, like God, he never seemed to come through for me. But that was probably because I didn't have enough 'blind faith', ask or beg hard enough. And Saint Nicklaus is certainly unconditionally loving - I'm told. Ahhhhh, let's preach Nicklausism - it's more believable.

January 25, 2005
11:57 pm
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Tez,

Wow, what a mind you have. So many questions. So many possibilities.

Have you ever had true cotentment? true feelings of inner peace? true stability in your faith? true acceptance that you are not here alone? true knowledge that you are here for a specific purpose?

Have you ever had the joy of knowing that your God (whomever he is) loves you, answers your prayers, guides your steps, blesses you, brings you thru trials and tribulations, gave of himself for you?

Faith is unquestioning belief. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

My life is lived based on my faith in my God. He guides me thru my days and gets me thru my nights. I have no need or desire to search elsewhere. I am content with my God.

Close minded? That's a matter of perspective.

January 26, 2005
5:38 pm
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Mamacinnamon.

I congratulate you. You didn't rear to the defence of your beliefs with vitriol. This convinces me that your 'faith' is not fear driven like that of the majority of the Christians that I have met.

I see that you have faith in your faith and therefore you find no need to question it. I hope that you are never put to the test like the tsunami victims have been.

You said:

"Faith is unquestioning belief. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

I have faith in the light switch every time I switch on the light. The basis for this faith is the ratio of times that I have successfully switched the light on to those in which the light failed to come on.

Unquestioning belief is 'blind' faith - that is, faith that is not based upon reason and rational thinking. Such faith drives Bin Laden and all the fanatics of the world. It also drives the desperate who seek charlatans out hoping for a cure for their cancers against all the odds.

However, just the act of having a strong enough faith in a rock to cure cancer can in itself galvanize the body's defense system into action. When God replaces the rock in such cases, God is given the credit. Why isn't God also given the discredit for the tsunami and the defective job done by him in designing and implementing Adam and Eve???

As for "faith being the evidence for things unseen" - this is gobblygook. It is the faith of a frightened little boy whistling in the dark in the belief that his whistling will protect him from his fears of the unknown. The boy's faith is evidence of his desire to be safe, but little else.

Voodoo entails blind faith. Is this faith 'evidence' that voodoo beliefs are correct, appropriate and rational?? Only an irrational mind would hold this proposition to be a valid one. Equally belief in a man rising from the dead, whether he be a voodoo zombie or Christ, is based upon fear of the unknown - that is, fear of dying, death and the thereafter for that person.

Why not face fear for what it is rather than ducking it by such sad techniques as cultivating 'blind' faith.

There is faith that is not blind. Faith in the belief that the light switch will work most of the time is one such faith. There are many other higher yet just as credible beliefs about the nature of life and death that do not require blind faith. Why choose one like Christianity that does require blind, unquestioning faith; a faith that cannot fail to keep those who practice it in everlasting ignorance as it did the Inquisition, the Papacy, and all the institutionalized religions that cause wars. If Christianity worked the world would not be as it is. Mahatma Gandhi, and the Dalai Lama both knew this when confronted with overwhelming oppression. The former beat the might of the British Empire whilst the latter is well on the way to defeating the Chinese in a way that will lead to ongoing peace - not the puss ridden sore that is Iraq today. The devout Christian that is your president, George Bush Jnr, who is riddled with 'blind' faith, is a classic example of the failure of Constantine's Christianity that we have today presented as the 'word of God'.

January 26, 2005
6:12 pm
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Hey Tez and Mamma,

I was reading what you wrote and wanted to deposit my more than two cents. Found it would be easier to paste a post in from another thread.

I really admire what the two of you are doing here. It is a beautiful dance to behold!!!

I love you,

Ren'ai

**************************************

First of all, thank you for your questions, open-mindedness towards me and my story, and taking an interest in my individual situation. I hope that by answering some of your questions, I can help you understand (not accept, or condone, mind you) some of the situations where someone might make such a "choice".

It was not "books" of the Bible, per se, that were deleted. Rather there were some events of significance that portrayed women as beings of some import that were taken out. If you look at the New Testament, I want to say in the book of Romans, there is a section of scripture describing how women should keep their heads covered and should not speak in church. Though this is New Testament scripture, you can see that since the 70's, women like Katherine Kuhlman(sp?) have not adhered to this scripture, and have blessed many in their defiance. Again, I would encourage you to do some exploration on your own.

As a child, I used to ask this question to my Sunday School teachers all the time "What if someone wanted to change the Bible?" The only answer I ever got was "God would never allow it." When I grew into adulthood, that answer no longer made sense to me because of the free-will factor. But I digress...

When I was in the first grade, I had a crush on a little boy in my class. I also had a crush on my teacher. She was so beautiful, very young, and "hip". This was in 1969. I remember once we were sitting on the floor of the gym and I could see her slip showing under her skirt. I didn't realize what was happening in my body at the time but I was physically aroused. It was only after I hit puberty and realized what sexual arousal was that I came to understand this is what I was feeling when I saw her slip.

Also, as a child I was sexually abused--by a woman, not a man. One would think that this would make me repulsed by women, and I know within myself that I would have been with women much sooner if it had not been for this negative experience.

I was "saved" when I was seven, and believe me, I had reached the "age of accountability," at least I had in my own mind. I was baptized shortly thereafter.

Growing up in church, and coming into adulthood with one foot in and one foot out of the church was extremely stressful. I felt like I had to hide who I really was from my non-Christian friends, and my "church family." It was one of the most difficult times in my life. I was working in the church nursery every Sunday, or leading Children's Church with a hang-over because drinking, drugging, and fucking were my ways of coping with the sexual abuse and other traumatic events of my childhood. I have had lots more male partners than females!

When I had my second child, I wholly devoted myself to church and did not even date anyone for 9 years. During that time I sang in the choir, taught a girl's class called "Missionettes" and taught the 12 & 13 year olds in Sunday School.

During my time in and out of church, I met many women who were lesbians. One was a woman who I called "mom" and her husband I called "dad". She eventually left him, unable to continue to live what she felt was a lie. There was actually a small section of pues where the lesbian women would sit, and the pastor's wife sat in the midst of them. After my church "mom" left my church "dad" I was devastated. The pastor's wife shared with me that she had an "abnormal" bond with this woman and that she had a nervous breakdown and almost ended her marriage for this woman. As I said in my earlier post, this is a very complex issue.

I know of at least one lesbian couple who met at this church and remain together to this day, although they are not welcome in the church. I also know of another lesbian woman who was ridiculed by others as she was a member of the choir. A man of high standing in the church said that she should not be allowed to be in the church at all, much less sing in the choir. I said to myself, "This is a Christian man! If a lesbian doesn't belong in church, where does she belong?" It made perfect sense to me--if they were concerned for her immortal soul, keep her in church!!!

Soon I began to learn that Christians are just people like other people. I knew a woman who was married and had a sexual encounter with her son's teenage friend. (She performed fellatio on him in the livingroom while her husband slept in their room.) I knew couples that "swapped" spouses via infidelity. There was a man who imbezzled $25,000 from the company he worked for. I knew others who drank, drugged, did whatever and then came to the altars on Sunday bearing with them heavy burdens of guilt. I learned a lot about spirituality and human nature, and most importantly, the love of "god" during this time. What I came to believe, more and more, was that hate and intolerance were being taught under the guise of love. I could not abide it.

I remember one time being in a service. The pastor's son was preaching. A gay man had come to the service that day, only for the love of his own son--my son. The pastor's son had no idea that there was a gay "visitor" present. He began to preach about homosexuality and then, pranced across the pulpit on his tip-toes, limp-wristed, doing his "impression" of a gay man. I thought to myself, "There is a gay man here in this service who will never again feel welcome in this place." How could a "man of God" be so insensitive?!?? I was just floored (and heartbroken)!!!

Sorry this is such a long post. You asked some valuable and valid questions of me. I feel to answer them in a half-assed way would be irresponsible and disrespectful...

Okay. So, the more I saw and experienced in the church, the more inquisitive I became about certain things. Like why would God toss us knowledge about things like heaven and hell as an incentive to love Him? Why not just keep that stuff under wraps and allow people to love Him because it is the right thing to do? Why entice us with thoughts of mansions or fears of eternal flames? Then I thought what if I went to heaven and became this complete materialistic asshole? I mean, we change, we grow. There is no "spiritual stasis" for beings as unevolved as we are. What if I went to hell, and somehow, in the midst of burning, I realized a love of God that none had known before me--not because I wished to escape the suffering, but because I finally understood and saw "who" God is? Well, it makes no sense to have "eternal" answers to "temporary" states of mind. And what I came to understand in my own spiritual search is that the original transcripts contained a word that was similar to "eternal" but it was more a word that means "for a long time." The word "eternal" was substituted in subsequent transcripts because it was the closest word they could find to the one that was originally used.

Then I thought about the fact that we, as humans, can think of any number of ways to kill or harm each other. We can think of millions of different clothing designs, kinds of foods, forms of punishment--and yet we believe an omnipotent, omni-present God can think of only TWO "after life" options!!! To me, that seems like a gross under-estimation of the potential and power of God.

Then I thought about all the wars. The ways people are killed. I thought of the thousands of people who were crucified before and after Jesus. I thought of people who burned to death, people fed to lions, people racked, drawn, quartered, gutted, put in stocks--I could go on and on and on. Well, many people just like you and me have died deaths far more horrible than the death that Jesus suffered, with no acknowledgment made of their sacrifice. People have died in the name of freedom, religion, or for a loved one in all kinds of ways.

Then I thought, if I was present in Jesus' time, and given the opportunity, I would be saying "Jesus, dude, think about it. We all have to take responsibility for our own actions. Don't die on a cross for me, brother. If I have to die on a cross for my sins so be it." It would not be my choice to send another to bear my punishment whether he is the son of God or not. It just isn't right. I don't want to be saved. I want to be responsible. I want to change, learn, grow, and love. And I still have to face death. I may be dragged under a semi for a couple of miles before I die. I may be raped, sodomized, and stabbed 60 times before I die. I may be attacked by sharks and ripped to shreds before I die. I may die quietly in my sleep. Who knows? But when death comes to me, it will be an individual, unique, and intimate experience that I will share with God. Whether I die by another's hand, or by the hand of time itself this will be my own personal experience--and if such is my death, then why is my life not the same? It is!!! And my relationship with God, and the confines within which it abides (or the lack of confines, might be more appropriate) is as unique as the relationships I have with my children. As parents we know that we don't love one child more than another, but we love them differently based on their own uniqueness. Such is my relationship with God.

I could go on and on but I think you more than get the point...

After all of this pondering, I came to realize that I was in love and had been for many years with my best friend who is a lesbian. I allowed myself to "be" and had a 4 year sexual relationship with her. I have been with two women since then. I have not been with a man since my daughter's father, but I am attracted to men, I love men, and if the right soul comes along and it happens to be living in a male body, then so be it. I will love that soul as I have loved others. I don't really care about genitals. That's the simplicity of it, I guess. I don't think God cares about genitals either. Angels don't have them. God doesn't need them. What purpose would a penis serve on God? He isn't going to have sex. He doesn't need to pee. If God has no penis then God is not a "he." God is without form or gender. If God isn't worried about gender, then why should I be?

My first woman partner was not from my church, despite my best efforts to get her there and convert her from a sinning lesbian into a heterosexual in denial. She was raised in a Baptist home and suffered for years, unable to reconcile her true self with what her church said she should be. She is finally coming into her own and though we are not lovers anymore, we are still close friends and love each other dearly. I am proud to be her friend, and hope that she feels the same way about me after all the years that I refused to accept her for who she is.

It has taken me a long time to come to terms with who I am, and KNOW that I have a real relationship with God. It's not the God of the scriptures. It's not the God of any religion or church. It is the God that is so powerful that our relationship can be just between us while encompassing all other life energy at the same time. I do not live in fear of the wrath of God. I live in fear of my own self-loathing and insecurity that creeps up on me all too often as the result of the guilt and shame I took on after my abuse, and during my time in the church when I feared that I would always be so imperfect that hell was the only place for me.

I remember once asking one of my former Sunday School teachers a somewhat hypothetical question: If I was walking on the sidewalk, slipped on a patch of ice, muttered "Oh shit!" then struck my head and died, would I go to hell because my last utterance had been a "bad word"? Would all my years of teaching children, of ministering to others, of singing God's praises in the choir, of praying, of seeking His face suddenly become null and void? If we believe the Bible, I would go to hell. She said "no" and that she believed that God looks at us in our entirety before making such a lofty decision.

I tend to agree...

Love to all,

Ren'ai

January 29, 2005
5:27 pm
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Ren'ai.

Thanks for your posting. I read it with interest.

You said:

"It was not "books" of the Bible, per se, that were deleted. Rather there were some events of significance that portrayed women as beings of some import that were taken out."

Since the 'Bible' didn't exist at that time, I agree that "It was not "books" of the Bible, per se, that were deleted". It was a collection of writings, that had the potential for inclusion in that body of literature that eventually became known as the bible, that were "deleted". As I understand it, the old testament of the Bible was constructed from selected writings from the scriptures of Judaism, making Christianity an offshoot of Judaism that was later Romanized by Constantine.

Whilst "some events of significance that portrayed women as beings of some import" may have been one of the reasons that some scriptural writings "were taken out", there were many other reasons as well. Any reference to reincarnation also resulted in exclusion. Any challenge to the power of the emporer Constantine, whatever the form, also resulted in relegations to the trash can. Paradigms inculcated with the ancient beliefs in the doctrines associated with the old Roman gods also permeated the thinking of Constantine. Politics of the time also had some bearing on the decisionmaking process. It would be biassed thinking to conclude that just misogyny underpinned that which was left out of and that which was included in the Bible at the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

"All the brethren in the East who have hitherto followed the Jewish practice will henceforth observe the custom of the Romans and of yourselves and of all of us who from ancient times have kept Easter together with you. Rejoicing then in these successes and in the common peace and harmony and in the cutting off of all heresy, welcome our fellow minister, your bishop Alexander, with all the greater honour and love. He has made us happy by his presence, and despite his advanced age has undertaken such great labour in order that you too may enjoy peace." Quotation from the translation taken from Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, ed. Norman P. Tanner

In particular I find this part of the Nicene Creed repugnant:
"... for us humans and for our salvation he came down and became incarnate, became human, suffered and rose up on the third day, went up into the heavens, is coming to judge the living and the dead. And in the holy Spirit ... "

Here we have depicted a judgmental, highly conditionally loving God who demanded a blood sacrifice of a God-man(Christ-Jesus) to reconcile His own giant stuffup in creating both Satan and the flaws in humanity for Satan to exploit. The injustice of a God-man paying for the 'sins' of another is only too apparent. The origins of suffering caused by the ignorance based sins of mankind would have to be laid at the feet of the creator. Besides why hasn't God just removed the flaws in mankind that contribute to our suffering?? Why do we live in a world that creatures for survival predate and alternatively are predated upon. All are eating and being eaten. In our case we are ultimately being predated upon by viruses, bacteria, other humans, old age, sickness and death. What sort of a God is this who either allows or causes all this to happen?? Salvation, hmmmm!! Where is it??

Getting back to the 'nitty-gritty', for me no one has ever been able to rationally reconcile to any degree the three characteristics of unconditional love, omnisciencience and omnipotence - purportedly possessed by the Christian God - with the horrors of the world in which we live.

Why would anyone want to be reconciled to a god who either causes or permits the horrors that we see around us daily???

January 29, 2005
5:44 pm
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The 50th anniversary of liberation of Aushwitz is upon us.

More recently:

Pol Pot murdered over a million of Cambodians.

The Chinese slaughtered over a million peace loving and harmless Tibetans.

Rwanda was another racist killing field in which over a million people were butchered.

Genocide is happening in the Sudan, today.

Right now, where is the God to whom Christians pray ???

Is God proud of His creation???

Did he deliberately include the defects from which humanity suffers??

Or at the time of creation, is it that God did not know that his creation would behave so abominably????

Or is God powerless to stop that which He put in motion at the big-bang???

January 29, 2005
6:14 pm
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Free will, Tez.

No "god" has any power over it...

Thanks so much for all the information you put out there for everyone. There is so much that we don't know about the bible. People who are basing their eternal soul on this book need to have ALL the information!

Love,

Ren'ai

January 30, 2005
7:59 pm
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Ren'ai.

You said:

"Free will, Tez."

Most human 'will' is blindly driven by the emotions, with little insight into the interactions that take place between cognitions and emotions.

If an unconditionally loving creator of humanity exists, then such a God would already have bestowed such insights into humanity from day one of creation.

"Free will" to choose from what is perceived by ignorant human minds to be very limited options, is hardly "free" will but is a will that is very constrained by ignorance. What use is this highly limited freedom of the will if omnisciense is not also bestowed upon the person to boot?? Hmmm!! This is hardly the act of an unconditionally loving creator of the ilk of the supposed Christian god.

And further referring to "free will", you said:

"No "god" has any power over it..."

Therefore you are saying that the Christian God is not omnipotent and therefore has only limited powers???

This disqualifies the Christian god from the position of 'Godhood'.

This common Christian belief regarding free will highlights just one of the irrationalities in general Christian thinking that discredits their religious beliefs in my eyes.

Other than 'blind' faith, I see no way around the irrationality inherent in the "three prerequisites" for the position of being the one and only Christian God. If blind faith is required, I might as well have blind faith in the sun god Ra or any other pagan god!!! Based upon blind faith belief in such Gods is equally as valid!

Will no one ever address this issue of the incongruencies in the Christian Godhood prerequisites????

February 1, 2005
5:33 pm
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Yes, Tez, I'm saying that the "Christian God" is not omnipotent because "HE" has no power over my will to make choices.

I doubt the general population would be very interested in debating the Christian incongruencies, but you and I can despite the fact that we would both be "preaching to the choir"--a little "Christian" ditty I have always found intensely amusing given my own personal experiences with a Christian Choir...

I would also say that "we" are far from ignorant, and that at the same time, we are very ignorant. I think some humans show an incredible amount of spiritual evolution. Yet regardless of how much we evolve, there is always an issue of how we "compare" to the rest of the universe and in that respect, we become insignificant. I love the duality of being all-knowing and knowing nothing simultaneously. I can be pompous and have an excuse at the same time...

Love,

Ren'ai

February 2, 2005
5:11 pm
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Ren'ai.

You said:

"Yes, Tez, I'm saying that the "Christian God" is not omnipotent because "HE" has no power over my will to make choices."

Then God becomes god with a lower case 'g'. This disqualifies him from the top job. 🙂

If we are all god in ignorance of this, then things start to make a little more sense.

If, as the Mind Only school of Buddhist thinking espouses, we humans are all Buddha Mind under the delusion that we are separate beings and all is manifestations of that Mind, then everything, including both God and gods, is Mind and there is no 'other' in Mind's boundrilessness. The plural word 'are' becomes totally redundant.

February 2, 2005
5:34 pm
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Tez I think it is free will gone amuck. I think that all of the negative energy in the world is causing natural uphealvals and catastrophes, because God in all of His loving goodness, would not cause these things to happen...because we have free will. I think we will eventually destroy ourselves, howevr I plan to be long gone before then. Do you beleive in negative energy vs. positive energy? Apparently the Tsunami flood caused our plant to move some sort of milli-degree(?)which could affect our climate, etc. God isn't doing it, although he is capable of it...Old Testament, but now we have the New Testament, and we are on our own unless we ask for help.

February 2, 2005
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"We" as a collective are "god" and therefore we are making the big decisions along with other forms of life that share our space...

This is my opinion...

Love to all,

Ren'ai

February 2, 2005
6:03 pm
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But Ren'ai,
If you beleive in the devil, the reason he was cast out of heaven along with his other dimwit followers, was becaue he too thought he was God, or likened unto. This in the Christian faith is the crux of us falling in the first place.

I guess it all depends on what one believes. This is what I beleive. And I don't judge anyone else for their's.

February 3, 2005
7:13 pm
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On my way

On the 2-Feb-05 you said:

"I think that all of the negative energy in the world is causing natural uphealvals and catastrophes, because God in all of His loving goodness, would not cause these things to happen."

Then why would an all powerful, all knowing, unconditionally loving God 'permit' these things to happen??

If such a God exists and He permits these things to happen then these occurrences of which you speak must be in conformance with His will! Logic 101

Or are all the horrors of the world that happen in our best interests??? If so how???

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