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Pathetic ministries
January 26, 2010
4:28 pm
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CraigCo
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(Dest)

January 26, 2010
6:25 pm
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andii
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Craigco

Seems some are afraid to look into the potential for spirituality as well.

You actually don't know the facts Craigco. What you "know" as facts are limited to your five physical senses. Those with less than five physical senses are even more limited, i.e the deaf and blind, etc.

andii

January 26, 2010
6:50 pm
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marypoppins
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There are so many atrocities committed in the name of God/in the name of religion. Why deny those facts? And anger over those atrocities is certainly warranted.

I think you've explained yourself clearly, Craigco, and I thank you for reminding us to be vigilant about the "lies and corruption".

My grandmother had faith in God until she died, but she certainly didn't approve of everything in Catholicism or the corruption in organized religion.

In my opinion, it is "spiritual" to consider the suffering of others. Not too long ago, there was a story in the news about priests in Africa telling families their children were possessed and then demanding fees to perform exorcisms. It was a money-making scam, but no one challenged the priests' authority. The children were beaten and starved and in some cases cast out by their communities. Who wouldn't be angry about this? Should we shrug our shoulders and just shake our heads?

The facts are that many in organized religion use their power unjustly. Nothing makes that right. Does writing this mean that I'm against people believing in God? Of course not. It's possible to be spiritual or have faith in something outside of ourselves and still have our EYES OPEN. Isn't it?

Mary

January 26, 2010
8:27 pm
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andii
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Marypoppins,

Is your post directed at me?

andii

January 27, 2010
1:45 am
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CraigCo
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Luv ya Mary!

January 27, 2010
9:11 am
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MsGuided
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When someone is discussing a subject their emotional state is besides the point.

In this case being wronged by religion, it's multitude of scriptures, specifically The Bible in the Old and New Testament, sighting how believers should deal with non-beleivers, "adulterers, gays, gives the person wronged a right to feel hurt or angry.

I have been maligned, abused by religious people, neighbours, etc. My son was also. It's MY JOB to protect. Theres; NO GOD that does that. period.

We moved to a new community when he was 8 and he was bullied horribly ( 2yrs). I thought if i switched him to the only other school in the area( a Catholic one)there would be more discipline and he'ld be protected.

Was i ever wrong! TWO MORE YEARS, of his peers ( the bullying continued. A few kids who transfered there also knew him from Hockey) He was harrassed on the bus, margianalized, lied about. The bullies wouldn't let him have ANY friends. Why? Jealousy. My son was making new friends, was kind and funny. ( strange, Adults act this way too, territorial and jealous) Then the teachers enabled and joined in because i was complaining to the ptincipal. Well that religious man, had an EGO the size of Russia and he had to teach this heathen mother and my son a lesson.My son developed anxiety, had horrible stomach cramps.The abuse continued until finally AFTER 4 YEARS of taking notes, watching the playground, going to The School Board and trustees, then social workers being set upon my son for "observation".( they suggested he be medicated. HA! Like i was going to let THAT happen) The conclusion was my son was well behaved, and adjusted, he was being BULLIED! By the kids and staff. His teacher got transferred to another school. We finally won but it was too late. By that time I had finally found a new place to live and we moved.

My son was damaged by the abuse not only socially but religiously. He was being hammered with religious dogma at 10-11 yrs old when he never had that kind of Shame based teaching before.

He became suicidal and THAT made me angry. To be outcast and tortured emotionally to the point of wanting to end his LIFE??!! He was only 13!!

It took a few yrs for him to recover from all that, a better community, better school and finally , the friends he deserved.

WALK IN MY SHOES.

If people want to embrace a religion that tells them they are imperfect and sinners, go about their divisive lives, controlling others, exerting this behaviour, cruelty then kindness, on those who don't beleive then they get what they dish out.

There is SOLID archeological and scientific proof the Bible is a hoax.I like the fact there's people like CC, MP, Tez, red, Hep, Lillabit ( religious but VERY tolerant and accepting)who will at least be open to discussing. Theres' more people here but there are certainly a few i will never trust.

Sure i can get emotional when it comes to religion because i almost lost my son!!.Thats' what happens when life is unfair and there seems a wave of people who just won't change that by examining their religious beliefs ( concept of sin, shame and punishing beleifs)

I appreciate how they have their own individual ways of expressing themselves.

That doesn't discount the GOOD moral lessons in there at all.

I'm TIRED of people judging me here also.

January 27, 2010
11:35 am
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MsGuided i am so sorry to hear that you n your son suffered from tht kind of bullying.right n thats the example they think they are spose to set? not even. that kind of hurt always stays with a person even when you see it happnimg to others. weather its gentle or out right shaming and bullyimg. im' so sorry my heart goes out to you both.

January 27, 2010
4:24 pm
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marypoppins
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I'm sorry, too, MsG, about what happened to your son. It's so obviously hypocritical when people bully "in the name of God"and then cry "religious persecution!" when they're called on it.

Dare to write about the deeds of religious bullies and one is likely to be called a "hater" or "Christian basher" here.

It was nice to see that Lillabit simply gave sincere sympathy rather than try to defend the behavior.

I'm not sure why some Christians are so quick to take responsibility for all Christians, though certain Christian posters here have stated that they've had horrible experiences with certain religions in the past and that they are sorry that the bad behavior of some Christians gives Christianity a bad name.

I, however, can do without the shame, guilt, and magical thinking that characterizes organized religion. And I think that people who have not yet healed from abuse are easily led down the God-path. A God who loves you despite your "sinful" nature is an easy sell to someone who already feels like a worthless piece of crap. Though it's rarely discussed here, religious addiction is rampant in our culture. However, as was mentoned before, some people are comfortable with circular logic.

To all here who are going through a rough time, I hope things get better. MsG, I don't know where that place is where we find like-minded individuals, but I know that I like your mind, and I would miss reading your posts if you left. What we all have in common is that we're posting here to try to learn something healthier than what we grew up with. We may trust and like some more than others, but it's a relatively safe place to share some thoughts and work on skills. In my opinion.

Love,

Mary

January 27, 2010
4:25 pm
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marypoppins
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(((Tez)))

January 27, 2010
5:11 pm
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MsGuided
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Hi ((Mary))

You just have a way of summing things up. I also like your logical input plus the fact you can let loose and have fun.

I didn't edit that post, and i do get VERY upset when i think about those years. My son was always ( still is) a kind, giving, peaceful soul and i just didn't understand why it was happening to him at first. I haven't written in great detail about it here, but I was up against a religious giant in that school system. If my son was at all at fault or had real social issues we would of lost. The social workers were a neutral body, outside of the Catholic system, called in to mediate. It wasn't until then that we finally got justice and they stopped the "assaults."

The principal told me i should of been a lawyer....not sure if that was an insult or compliment!LOL

This doesn't happen for many people who get persecuted. That saddens me greatly.

What you posted about religious addiction and posting here to learn ,working on skills was absolutely true!

Thanks MP!

January 27, 2010
7:51 pm
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Hepburn
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(((Mary, MsG)))

January 27, 2010
8:08 pm
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marypoppins
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(((Hep)))

January 28, 2010
3:12 am
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Thanks all for your sentiments.

I have just come home after attending the funeral of an 'associate'. Though I was on very friendly terms with him, he was not a friend as such. I like many others flocked to his funeral, much to the surprise of his relatives. When this guy shook my hand 4 days before he died, he had the strength of a lion. No matter how old or how young we may be, we are all just a one breathe at a time proposition. A brain aneurism can snatch life away from us at any instant. If we experience a huge brain aneurism, the next instant is then not for us - at least not while riding this 'horse'.

At the funeral, I observed many people seeking comfort by speaking as if the deceased was present with us. The speakers turned towards the coffin to address 'Don' - (my hugely dead 'associate')- as though he was alive in his coffin listening to all that was being said about him.

As I drove out of the cemetry, I saw many graves with huge marble monuments that must have cost thousands of dollars. It seemed to me that addressing corpses, erecting huge sepulcres of death above decaying matter, is a natural desire to cling to the belief that the corpse is still the person - even after death has shut down all biological functions!

Is this why religions have such a powerful appeal to us? At times when the grim reaper can no longer be ignored, do we really want old myths to cling to - just because our own mortality has been so bluntly thrust right under our very noses?

A very interesting meditation is to try to sit in the position of the observer completely devoid of any conscious reference to the 'self'. How the 'ego' of the 'self' will fight against the mind that attempts such an assault on its very existence. It seems that the mind fights against observing the simplest thing without doing so in relation to this imaginary 'self'.

How marvelous it must be for the great masters who sat in meditation and watched the passing of their own body into the jaws of death without the slightest concern for maintaining the integrity of the illusion of their departing 'self', the maintenance failure of which creates, so much of the suffering mentioned by others above.

January 28, 2010
12:09 pm
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bereft
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Some years ago the Canadian author and scientist, G.B. Hardy said, "I only want to know two things: Has anyone ever cheated death, and did he make a way for me to do it? If so, I want to find that man."

He looked in Buddha's tomb, but it is occupied. He looked in Mohammed's tomb, but it is occupied. When he looked in Jesus' tomb, he found it empty. He concluded, "Someone cheated death."

Then he asked, "Did He make a way for me to do it?" Then he read this in the Bible: "... Because I live, ye shall live also" (John. 14:19). Hardy said, "That's what I wanted to know."

January 28, 2010
5:26 pm
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CraigCo
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Bereft,

It's a myth. It's been PROVEN to be. You may as well argue that 'water is dry' & expect to be taken seriously by anyone here capable of critical thinking.

You poor lost soul hanging on to that silly myth. I think you just like trying to annoy the nonbeliever with repeating the same ol crap. But, apparently that's ALL you've got.

Yada-yada, tooth fairy, Yad-tada, God, yada-yadam any number of ridiculous stories. lol

January 28, 2010
5:32 pm
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CraigCo
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Hope the Xtians find real peace one day. Something based in reason, truth & disregard the harmful old myths.

January 28, 2010
8:22 pm
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CraigCo.

Bereft might have brought up a very good point. Christ's tomb may well have been found empty. It appears that JC might not have died on the cross but was revived by Joseph of Arimithea. It seems to me that JC after 'appearing to his apostles' who mistakenly thought he had risen from the dead, escaped back to India where he had previously spent his 18 'missing years' of his youth in a Buddhist monastry. This would explain the very Buddhist underpinnings in the Gospel of St. Thomas that was found in 1945 at Nag Hammadi.

This link to an article about Jesus and Buddhism makes for some interesting reading.

I saw an interesting documentary movie the other day about Christ's 'missing years'. This movie claims that JC did his 'spiritual apprenticeship' in India - at a Buddhist temple in Jaganath, from memory.

So it appears that JC didn't escape death at all. He only posponed that date with death and now his mortal remains are buried in a tomb in Srinagar in Kashmir, India. Apparently Mohammed indicates this in the Koran.

Whether or not the above info is based upon fact, it is a great pity that the whole foundations of the Christian religion hinges upon the myth of Jesus Christ rising from the dead and floating off to heaven in his (im?)mortal coil. It seems that the Xtain beliefs are not sufficient in and of themselves. But that is the way of all the religions of the past that have seemingly spawned the Xtain myths. See the opening of the film Zeitgeist for a very interesting expose of the foundations of the Xtain mythology that is to be found in the bible.

To answer your earlier question, Craig: No, I would never again take on board irrational, ancient myths as being facts. Therefore Xtianity together with all the other -isms are out. The very reason that I don't become a 'card carrying' Buddhist is that there is too much mythology and cultural practices that are leftovers from previous religions mixed in with the authentic teachings of the Buddha, for my liking. I suspect that the same applies to Christ's teachings. So much of ancient primitive Judaism is mixed up with Xtain teachings that I doubt that Christ, if he was alive today, would put his imprimatur on the Xtain bible at all. Who knows?

January 28, 2010
10:17 pm
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MsGuided
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Tez.

If christ did exist who was he really? when was he really born? If this persona existed why was there no solid evidence?

If this person was so important why did all of christs details morph from pagan beleif?

Acharya S was the consultant for Zeitgeist. On her site you can read about the origions of christ. She is one expert to investigate.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/religion.htm

It seems there was someone who led the masses in peaceful protest. Apparently women accompanied his travelling group ( the remainders of matriarchal influence when women had more freedom and power?)and there was a Gnostic focus to his teachings.It happened during the early onset of Roman occupation but since the Romans were the dominant culture many of the pagan based evidence was destroyed and mostly Roman historic accounts exist.

January 28, 2010
11:18 pm
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marypoppins
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Very interesting, guys!!

Love,

Mary

January 28, 2010
11:25 pm
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marypoppins
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"guys" as in men & women...

I'm going to check out the links when I have more time, but I wanted to say "thanks" for the info and wish everyone well.

January 28, 2010
11:26 pm
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MsGuided.

Thanks for your interesting post and for raising those very pertinent questions.

It is strange that the Roman records and the Jewish historians of the time have no record of such dramatic beginnings to such a wide spread religion as Xtianity.

I often wonder what would have become of Xtianity had Constantine not so superstitiously adopted Xtianity as his state religion. Had Constantine lost the battle after painting crosses on the shields of his soldiers then Xtianity would probably have largely disappeared from the face of the earth.

You wrote:

"If this person was so important why did all of christs details morph from pagan beleif?"

Strange that!! Zeitgeist, the movie, does present a huge amount of material to substantiate the origins of many nearly identical myths; all based on sun worship and astrology. Xtianity being only one of many such myth. My guess is that Rome injected much if not all of the old astrological and sun worship based mythology into Xtianity.

And:

"Acharya S was the consultant for Zeitgeist. On her site you can read about the origions of christ. She is one expert to investigate.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/religion.htm

Thanks for that reference. I'll follow it up.

And you wrote:

there was a Gnostic focus to his teachings.

Sadly the violent non-cheek turning Xtain sects, contrary to Christ's express teachings, put the gnostics and their supposed 'heresy' to the sword. There is something ironic about that isn't there. It was by the sword that these sects ensured that their version of Christ's message is alive and well today. I don't know whether Christ as a historical figure truly existed or not. I tend to think that there was an historical figure(s) around which the myth grew. But either way for me I find it irrelevant whether he existed or not. The message purportedly his as contained in the new testament in the bible is largely irrelevant to me. It has no real power in a very practical sense.

Some of the Buddha's supposed teachings do contain some power for me. I can try them out, and reject what I don't like. All this I can do on the advice of the Buddha himself. Did the Buddha really exist? I don't know or care. In my mind, his teachings can either stand or fall on their own merits. I've read of great masters claiming that some sutras are not genuinely the Buddha's teachings. Thich Naht Hanh is one master who disclaimed the authenticity of one verse attributed to the Buddha. This I like reading.

I am the final judge of what I believe and what I don't. No pontif either in Rome, Tibet or on some TV station is going to tell me what is true and what is not.

I wish that all of humanity would assume ownership of and therefore responsibility for examining the rationality of their own beliefs. sadly many just do not question the veracity and rationality of what they have naively taken on board as children as being the 'gospel truth'. Sadly others in desperation grab at the 'feel good' seductive messages given by beguiling, entrepreneurial, Xtain charlatans who drive around in luxury automobiles and live in plush homes.

January 28, 2010
11:47 pm
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Tez,

I think many take the easier road - judge a political candidate by a few key phrases, go no further looking into current events than listening to the nightly news during dinner, buy the item eye-level on the shelf - the one that requires no bending or stretching. And there are many willing to use all of that power that's just given away. We DO need to use our minds and the rights and freedom we have.

People in other parts of the world risk their lives to vote, to attend school, and to exercise religious freedom.

I try to remind myself every day how much I have to be thankful for.

Time to go to bed now, but thank you, Tez, and others, for making me think.

Mary

January 29, 2010
11:34 am
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bereft
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"It is strange that the Roman records and the Jewish historians of the time have no record of such dramatic beginnings to such a wide spread religion as Xtianity." - Tez

This is what Josephus, the Jewish historian, writing in A.D. 90 (even before John wrote Revelation), said in Volume 2, Book 18, chapter 3, page 3 of Jewish Antiquity, quote: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call Him a man, for He was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to Him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate at the suggestion of the principle men among us had condemned Him to the cross, those that loved Him at the first did not forsake Him for He appeared to them alive again the third day as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning Him. And the tribe of Christians so named from Him are not extinct at this day."

Tacitus who lived in A.D. 114 tells us that the founder of the Christian religion, Jesus Christ, was put to death by Pontius Pilate in the reign of the Roman Emperor Tiberius. Pliny the Younger wrote a letter to the Emperor Trajan on the subject of Christ and Christians. The Babylonian Talmud talks about Jesus Christ.

Hope that helps.

January 29, 2010
7:10 pm
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bereft

Thanks for correcting me on that seemingly 'erroneous' statement of mine.

I make two points:

1.

By the words "such dramatic beginnings" I had in mind current reports to Rome about people being raised from the dead(Lazarus), walking on water, changing water into wine, multiplying a basket full of loaves and fishes into enough food to feed 5000 people, curing lepers of leprosy, restoring the sight to blind people, curing schizophrenics, making the lame walk, killing a fig tree with his mind only; reports delivered in 30 AD to the Roman Emperor, not recording the scuttlebutt that was circulating some 60 years after the events. After all a Jewish miracle worker would have had great value in Caesar's arsenal. Why wasn't he informed and records kept of such staggeringly important information? Here I haven't even mentioned the so called 'resurrection'- (or was it 'resuscitation'?).

It is strange that the Roman records that are so efficient in giving us the writings of Marcus Aurelius and many others could overlook such mind blowing events mentioned above. Of course if these 'events' never happened and were the work of the wishful thinking of the overactive imaginations of primitive tribal Jews then such absence of Roman and Jewish records make sense.

2.

Regarding that passage supposedly written by Flavius Josephus that you quoted, Wikipedia states :

"The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been disputed since the 17th century, although most modern scholars agree that it is partially authentic.[1] The second passage mentions Jesus as the brother of a James, possibly James the Just. Most scholars consider this passage genuine."

And:

"... ... The Christian author Origen wrote around the year 240. His writings predate both the earliest known manuscripts of the Testimonium and the earliest quotations of the Testimonium by other writers. In his surviving works Origen fails to mention the Testimonium Flavianum, even though he was clearly familiar with the Antiquities of the Jews, since he mentions the reference by Josephus to Jesus as brother of James, which occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (xx.9), and also other passages from Antiquities such as the passage about John the Baptist which occurs in the same chapter (xviii) as the Testimonium.[4] Furthermore, Origen states that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ" [8] "he did not accept Jesus as Christ" [9], but the Testimonium declares Jesus to be Christ. Thus it could be inferred that the version of Antiquities available to Origen did not give as positive an endorsement of Jesus as the present-day Testimonium.

On the other hand, while the evidence from Origen suggests that Josephus did not write the Testimonium in its current form, it also demonstrates, according to some scholars, that the version of the Antiquities known to Origen must have written something about Jesus, for otherwise Origen would have no reason to make the claim that Josephus "did not accept Jesus as Christ." [10] It is possible, for example, that Origen read the original version of the Testimonium Flavianum, which textual evidence from Jerome and Michael the Syrian (see below) indicates was worded "he was believed to be the Christ" rather than "he was the Christ." According to Alice Whealey, this original version was also probably what Eusebius also had at his disposal. [11] Whealey has argued that the wording of Michael the Syrian's Testimonium in particular, which employs the word mistabra, meaning "was supposed," has a skeptical connotation, as evidenced in the Syriac New Testament where it is used to translate Greek enomizeto of Luke 3:23. She has argued that Origen's probable exposure to a reading like Greek enomizeto (corresponding to the Syriac mistabra) in the original version of the Testimonium would readily explain Origen's statement that Josephus did not believe in Jesus as the Christ.[12] ... ... ... ..."

January 29, 2010
7:38 pm
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Hi Mary

Thanks for your post. I hope that you had a good, restful sleep and feel refreshed, alive and vibrant now.

Have a wonderful day.

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