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Okay, EVERYONE, Where IS God?!!?
April 4, 2005
3:20 pm
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on my way
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The thing about God? is that we don't reach for Him, He reached for us. Behavior "good Christain" "bad Christian" is not the issue, as there are none in existence...you either are or you aren't..it isn't based on works, or we would all fall short. It is based on faith, trust...many things more personal...it is a realtionship,...just like the ones we have here...only a million times better.

April 4, 2005
6:40 pm
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Dear Ren'ai, mistress of the written word and creatively self-conceived thought - THANK YOU! I now feel I exist and am accepted here, at long last, by at least one genuine, emotionally & rationally mature person ... and am tearful with relief and joy.
I shall answer soon. I love your honest, imaginative, feelingful writing, by the way. Love to you too - however different our lives and the cultures that shaped us have been. The human 'Oneness' in Spirit shines through.

Hi there, 'on my way'.

Well, I used to think like you. But didn't Jesus Himself say it was not belief alone that mattered, but actions?
Somewhere in the Gospels He says: "He who says 'Lord, Lord' shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven - but he who does the Will of my Father, which is in Heaven".
So faith is empty & meaningless without 'good works', and vice-versa, surely? Aren't both neccessary?

Thank you so much for your imput. I respect your (& my former) point of view deeply, from which I have learned much, before I moved on beyond literalism. I still love and follow 'Jesus' (Yeshuah Ben Josef) as my best & dearest Teacher.

Love, gazelle.

April 5, 2005
1:42 am
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mamacinnamon
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Gazelle:

The verse referenced above is Matthew 7:21. "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven". It is speaking of a tree and it's fruit. That by your fruit you will be recognized.

I think it is talking about the change in one when they accept Jesus into their heart. You cannot truly accept Jesus and remain the same as you were. There will be a change because you will want to do good. Not continue as you were.

My thoughts.

April 5, 2005
7:05 am
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gazelle
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Thanks for the chapter & verse reference, MamaC. A great help, thanks.

It's how we LIVE that counts - not just what we say!

"Fruit" means results, doesn't it. Outcome. The "fruit" that one's behaviour "bears" = the consequences of one's actions. Somewhere else, Jesus says: "By your fruits you shall be judged" - i.e. according to one's actions & effects on others, rather than just by what one declares (which could be just hypocrisy.)

I agree that the Spirit of the Christ (the annointed One, the awakened One) is to be real-ised within us as we evolve and develop spiritually. I think we are all One "in Him" - i.e, in perfected human nature.

The only problem I have with your kind post is the implication that either I or anyone does not already, quite naturally, want to do good 🙁

Yes, we do! If God created us, along with everything else, and said that all was good - who are we to think otherwise? Why do we teach our poor children that they were conceived & born "in sin" - through no fault of their own - and unless they do / don't do certain things, they will be tortured forever by a 'god' they are supposed to love?! What a weird & gruesome travesty of spirituality, love and joy!

I agree with Plato that at our core, we all, quite naturally, want to be & do "good". (Even though this desire can become occluded.)
I believe our human nature IS "of 'God'" and therefore Good. And that that is why Jesus referred to himself as "son of Man", emphasising his full humanity.

Much respect & Love to you - gazelle.

Ren'ai -

The above ramblings are the closest I can get to answering your question about 'evil' at my present state of development. I have considered, discussed, read & studied heaps, meditated & thought about this all my life long, and see it as the biggest unanswerable question we face. (Even creation, death, Karma etc are a doddle in comparison! Lol.)

April 5, 2005
8:48 am
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mamacinnamon
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Gazelle,

You stated that "The only problem I have with your kind post is the implication that either I or anyone does not already, quite naturally, want to do good :("

I was not trying to implicate that a person could not be good without God. I do believe folks can be inherently good on their own. I know several wonderful folks that would give you the shirt off their back, but they do not accept Jesus.

What I was addressing above is that anyone that DOES accept Jesus will have changes. By that statement I was talking only of folks that have accepted Jesus. That those folks will have a noticable change in their lives. I was not at that point addressing folks that have not accepted Jesus. Those I just spoke of above.

conceived & born "in sin". Can you tell me where in the Bible it says that please. I did not find it. I have heard it said, but cannot find the passage to prove or disprove that saying.

unless they do / don't do certain things, they will be tortured forever by a 'god' they are supposed to love. I do not believe that, not in the least little bit, but I do know it is used against some children and that truly is a shame.
I don't see that in the Bible either. In fact the Bible says several times to let the little children come to me and do not hinder them; and about giving good gifts to them; do not exasperate your children. I have always taught my kids that God loves them no matter what they do. There will be consequences for every action, but that God and their family still loves them.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. 🙂

April 5, 2005
9:31 am
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gazelle
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Hi again, MamaC. Thanks for the good-hearted sentiments behind what you say. It's great & fairly rare to debate (& even disagree) with mutual respect & love.

You are right that many 'Christian' doctrines are not biblical. But there is much nasty stuff in the Bible besides good! Remember where 'god' orders us to kill our children ... if they play with dolls (have 'idols'), if our sons get drunk, if our daughters lose their virginity, etc. And much about 'god' ordering wholesale slaughtering of enemies - including their wives & poor little children! Not nice. Not Love. Not God!

The Bible is a supremely important and fascinating compilation of books, written by many people over hundreds of years. The books served completely different purposes.

Some document tribal genealogy.... some contain beautiful poetry ... some philosophy ... some fascinating symbolic stories with deep messages ... some hold staggeringly profound mythopoetic Truths about our origins, progress & destiny ... some is straight history, some lists tribal customs & laws ... and some is downright nasty, showing the worst, most bloodthirsty sides of humanity - even projected as the will of a 'god'! 🙁 Yet there is also plenty of magnificent spiritual inspiration and great wisdom too, IMHO 🙂

The bit about us being conceived & born in sin is part of Roman Catholic doctrine, and also accepted by many Anglicans and other sects within mainstream 'Christianity'.
It is called the doctrine of 'Original Sin' - and comes from Saul of Tarsus /"Saint" Paul.

Biblical too is the concept of "hell" as a place of eternal torture & torment, cut off forever from 'God' with no hope of reprieve. INFINITE torture & agony as punishment for FINITE 'sin'. How just is that?!

I was brought up to believe in all this - and lived in almost constant fear. Religion was mostly about desperately trying to avoid hell. Nowadays, after decades of learning & growing, my spiritual Path is one of Love - as shown & taught by Jesus (& many mystics worldwide.) Hoorah!

You talk about being good without God, MamaC.
But I believe we cannot EVEN EXIST without God; since God, for me, IS the Spirit / creative energy of Life Itself!

In Love - gazelle.

April 5, 2005
10:00 am
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mamacinnamon
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Gazelle:

It's a pleasure to speak to someone so kind. thank you.

You talk about being good without God, MamaC. But I believe we cannot EVEN EXIST without God; since God, for me, IS the Spirit / creative energy of Life Itself!

I did not state that right. What I meant to say, and I do get my words mixed alot, is we can be good without Jesus in our heart. Accepting Jesus is our choice. You are right. Nobody would even be here without God.

Sorry for the mixup in words. Glad you brought it to my attention.

April 5, 2005
6:30 pm
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gazelle,
>> According to this model, you DO 'need' 'God', simply in order to exist! < < These are all mindgames. You need substance "X" to exist, there you go. I claim substance X is not God (I'm athiest). Did God create men or did man create God? Anyway.. this can go on and on, you're right, we could stop here. Oh.. my mother was also cold, I'm sorry for you and feel that. My mom almost never even hugged me. I should share with you more but I feel tired right now. I need to pay importance to my body signals, I'm so hungry yet I'm here typing. heh. I'm sorry for your cold ex-husband too. He should keep a blanket with him at all times! (just kidding, heh). Oh gosh.. I think I'm somewhat cold too. You know the saddest part of my belief is that I know life is so short (no afterlife concepts for me). I'm imperfect, but what can I do? Nothing, gotta just survive and as Tez said, to enjoy the moment.

April 5, 2005
8:13 pm
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It just doesn't make sense to me that there can only be "one" way, one "right" or "wrong." There are too many differences in us for the "One Size Fits All," IMO...

I think that what you believe creates your reality.

I think we are much more powerful than we realize most of the time.

I think we sell ourselves short when we depend on someone else to pay the price for us.

If my only choices are to condone the crucifixion of Jesus, or go to hell for what I've done, then I choose hell. I don't condone crucifixion--no matter who the victim was or is! But I don't believe in hell. Again, it doesn't make sense to me that "god" would be so creative in the universe and then only come up with two afterlife options. If "god" is the creator of all things, and there are over a million different species of spiders, then why only Heaven or Hell?

I, too, did a lot of studying, especially of the bible. I spiritually "out grew" what I could find written there.

Love to all,

Ren'ai

April 5, 2005
8:20 pm
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Gazelle,

Don't let my writing fool you. I'm far from "mature!"

I'm really not kidding...I'm somewhat proud to say!

Love you,

Ren'ai

April 6, 2005
8:39 am
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gazelle
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If you really are 'far from "mature"', then you must be "kidding"! LOL.

Another old head on emotionally childish, exciteable, idealistic, over-sensitive, exuberant, still-growing shoulders?? (That's how I see myself on my better days, when feeling slightly more than invisible or sh**.)

Love, gazelle.

April 6, 2005
8:41 am
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gazelle
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I definitely know one place God is right now: in Mamacinnamon down on Jigs's latest 'mama' thread.
I really mean that. Anyone following the whole tragic Jigsaw story will see Love in action, struggling to overcome so much agony.
And IT WILL!

MAMACINNAMON, you are my biggest inspiration right now. You are 'walking your talk', at whatever cost to your own comfort. I'm in awe. And sending your strength & wisdom & true care as many prayers and heartfelt vibes of support as I can 'channel' - and all the refreshing sleep, healing & peace that YOU need too, in your own life.
You share so tirelessly with others in need - TAKE THE BEST, MOST LOVING CARE OF YOURSELF TOO! Especially right NOW!!!(((XXX)))- gazelle.

April 6, 2005
9:36 am
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And God is obviously shining out of the caring, responsible, humorous, loving Bonita, AW, and Orangeboy too of course. So many dear, kind, lovely people here. I'm so glad I found this site to learn from 🙂

Remember to look after yourselves, all! Nurture your own little tender, inner child as kindly as you nurture Jigs! xxxxx

April 6, 2005
10:52 am
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So, Gazelle,

I take it you are somewhere in England...?

You don't have to tell if you don't want to. I'm just trying to get a better "feel" for what your life is like.

I have enjoyed the things you have to say about "god". I think it takes a finely tuned spiritual eye to see god in many situations--like the one with little Jigs. I posed a question earlier about evil, stating that if abuse I suffered results in my wanting to help others, then is the abuse still "evil?" After I wrote it, what I realized is that the abuse is a different form of energy, and that it likely "changes" when I use it to do something differently than what was done to me.

It seems crazy to me when people blame god or the devil for things that happen in the world. People have free will. Some people choose to drive drunk and will crash into and kill someone else. That doesn't mean it was "god's will" for that person to be dead--IMO--it means someone made a choice to drive drunk. Not only that, but I must confess that I have driven under the influence in the past. I could have killed someone. Was it god's will that I NOT kill anyone? I don't think so. I think I just got lucky...

So, what are the murder, teen pregnancy, domestic abuse, drug abuse, et.al. statisticas like where you are living? Maybe I need to move...

Love,

Ren'ai

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