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Okay, EVERYONE, Where IS God?!!?
March 31, 2005
1:57 pm
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Where is God when an 8 year old little girl is being raped with a 2x4?

Where is God when a woman is being beaten by her husband?

Where is God when a 3 month old infant is being burned by cigarettes and beaten until its flexible arms and legs are ALL broken? (Yeah, this baby died, btw...)

Where is God when someone with cancer has their insides melting and gurgling out of their mouth?

Where is God in the tsunamis and earthquakes and tornados and fires?

I'll tell you where God is. God is in me. God is in me when I hold the abused child. When I counsel the abused woman. When I comfort the family whose husband/father was lost to cancer. When I grieve for the life of a baby that no one could save. You see, all of these experiences are very close to me. Is it any wonder I want to die and leave this place? It's fucking disgusting!

At the same time, I see the beauty in each sunset, and the symbolism in the knowing that I survived another day. I feel the love of people all around me, who care whether or not I live or die. I walk in the mountains and see the beauty of the world in which we live. I have my conversations with "god" and I find a way to survive just a little bit longer.

But I am sick of this earth in so many ways. I am sick of mankind and the way we treat one another and the earth we've been blessed with. I'm sick of people with their pompous attitudes telling me how my life "really" is, or what I must believe--shoving their morals down my throat--it feels like being forced to give a guy head--his hands in your hair--not caring if you gag, choke, or puke.

There is such duality here in this place. Such ugliness in the midst of such overwhelming beauty.

I'm tired of dealing with the ugliness. I need a break. I want to be in the beauty for a while and rest.

Love to all,

Ren'ai

March 31, 2005
3:44 pm
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It may not seem like it, because I gave my "opinion" but this is a serious question for me. Where do YOU think "god" is, in relation to all that is happening not just within each individual, but with us as a collective?

An inquiring mind wants to know...

Love to all,

Ren'ai

March 31, 2005
4:28 pm
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I believe God is in us, around us, and is the collective I.

March 31, 2005
4:31 pm
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Ren'ai.

You asked:

"Where do YOU think "god" is, in relation to all that is happening not just within each individual, but with us as a collective?"

"Where is God" you ask? God is a fantasy construct of the limited collective human mind; a mind desperately trying to find a 'big daddy in the sky' who will look after their interests now and in the after life; a mind that is driven by fear - not by rationality!

If one applies reason then the conclusions are that either, all is God who is a masochist or, all is not God but God is a sadist, or there is no creator and all is part of one unlimited process that had no beginning nor has any end.

Whatever one concludes the human mind has been conditioned by the senses in the domains of three dimensional space and in the fourth dimension, time. Such a conditioned mind is ill-equipped to cope with such concepts as 'infinity' and 'zero', which is the reciprocal of infinity.

Thus the 'collective human mind' likes to create a concept called God that can be used to answer the eternal question of where everything originated and who will save us from the fear of extinction and meaninglessness.

We are like little children whistling in the dark to keep our spirits up and the boogie man at bay. When will we ever grow up?

March 31, 2005
5:55 pm
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Interesting view Tez. Do you think that all people who believe in God are immature?

March 31, 2005
7:28 pm
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Love you Tez.

Now to the matter at hand. God is in me through the Holy Spirit, and I can make a difference. To explain all of the atrocities in the world, is beyond me, but someday when I sit down with God I am sure it will be one of the questions I will ask.

March 31, 2005
9:20 pm
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Hi Renai and Tez,

These were the very first questions I was asking myself right before I went through my Healing Process. Where was God when such thing and thing happened to me? Why didn't God provide me with more..., better people/circumstances, or protect me from evil abusive people???

We all have heaps of sorrows, abuse, injustice, lack of love which have been done to us...whether it from our direct family members, strangers, co-workers, or simply unfair/harsh circumstances.

Here is what Sweet God, our Heavely Father answered me right before I went through one of the most profound & instrumental journeys in my life:

When I God created you all, I gave you all free will to make choices and decisions to influence, impact, improve; OR destroy, abuse, distort.

Most people who have been abused by either one or both parents early on, tend to be angry at God. That really makes perfect sense, cause we view our parents in the same way we view God. After all they are our earthly parents, God is our heavely Father.

Many of my friends are like that, they are having hard time submitting their heart to the Lord, cause one or both parents were emotionally unavailable. I used to be like that some day. Not any more, thanks to the Healing Process I went through several years ago, through the help of Jesus, my Best Friend!!!

God has nothing to do with anything wicked in our life. In fact, the moment we surrender our heart to Him; He has our best interests at heart, and wants to work things to our highest good!

Hence, God is not responsible for any rape, explosion, robbery, dishonesty, betrayal, abuse or anything evil, wicked or bad that happen to us. People made choice to harm.

Ex: If a rapist breaks into a house and rapes a girl/woman, do your think God told him to do that?

He(The rapist) made a CHOICE to rape!!! You see, God gave us a free choice to do what we want, by showing us what is right or wrong in His Word, the Holy Bible!

Here is what the Bible says about blaming God:

"Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice." (Job 34:12)

I hope I managed to clear some confusion! If you have any more Qs, I am here for you!

Jesus loves you and I love you both!!

Rasputin

March 31, 2005
10:27 pm
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I'm not angry at "god" and didn't mean to give that impression, if I did.

I don't believe "god" has control of all or maybe any of this stuff because of FREE WILL!!!

Tez, I like what you had to say, but disagree with the idea that we are unable to grasp zero or infinity. I believe I have a realistic concept of both.

I guess what I need to do is explain that I don't really believe in "god." I believe in energy. It's real, and it changes things one way or another.

We are energy. Everything in this particular plane of existance is energy. So I guess what I believe in is an undying source of energy that exists, and that we have an ability to tap into that source to _________.

I hope this makes more sense...

Love to all,

Ren'ai

March 31, 2005
10:34 pm
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Ren'ai:

It's ok to say you believe in God. I know you do, you said it many times and you own it. Don't let anyone bully you, correct you or make you doubt. You believe what you believe and nobody can change that unless you allow it.

Yes, God is in you just as he is in me. I to get so disgusted and sick of this world I wish I could just check out too. If you want to see the beauty just close your eyes. It's all there.

As for this shit world we live in... this to shall pass. šŸ™‚

April 1, 2005
8:55 am
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Hey Ren'ai,

Good to hear from you, GIRL!! šŸ˜‰

You know, those are all good questions you've asked, and that I asked at one point in my life. It was right after I went thru finding out that my ex-husband had gotten another woman pregnant and after I had left a very abusive household as a child.

After that time, I was filled with so much self-hate because of all the rejection that I didn't care about anything. I figured that God was someone Who I believed in all my life but He seemed to delight in suffering. In anger, I went ballistic and threw morals and decency to the wind...I figured God was just a distant, uninvolved, holy fabrication that people leaned on to feel good about themselves.

I won't get into the details, but after living a life of pure rebellion, I ran into an old woman where I worked. She stopped me in the halls and said "I'm praying for you, and so are others". I just remained and thought, "wow, if people are praying for me I must be pure evil". In time, this woman and several others reached out to me with such kindness that it felt like a cold glass of water to a person dying of thirst. I had never known such love. These people were Christians, and they cared about me...something I had never known. They were not pompous or forced anything on me, just plain, ordinary folks with an extraordinary mission, to show God's love to a hurting world.

I can't defend the evil things that God allows to happen in the world. God doesn't have to defend Himself and what He allows to happen simply because He is God.

My part in this messed up world is to bring Him closer to hurting people, not always perfectly, in fact I screw up a lot because I'm human. But I know that before everything in my life was black-and-white and is now in living color!! šŸ™‚

I know this is long, Ren'ai, but hey you were probably bored anyway and needed something to read, right?? šŸ™‚

Take care, love ya!

CM

April 1, 2005
6:26 pm
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LOL, CodaMom, aka "Smart A**"!!! (You know I said that with the deepest, heart-felt love, right!!?)

Okay. I need to explain some things again...

I do refer to "god" regularly in my postings, but I use the quotes and the lack of a capital "G" intentionally because to write it any other way would not honor my personal belief system. It's just easier for me to write "god" than it is to write "great universe" or "higher power" or whatever I think someone else might be able to relate to...

And I do not, in any way, believe that "god" has genitalia. I don't see "god" as a male or female entity, I see a pure creative force of energy that provides us with the environment for learning if that is our utmost desire.

I don't know how it works. I don't know why. And if I'm really going to be honest then what I must also say is that I am God, and so are you, and you, and you, and you because this energy lives within all of us and within all that exists on this particular plane--trees, animals, water, fire, clouds, nebulae--you name it! This is why I believe that "we" have influenced things like the tsunami and the earthquakes of late. "We" are tired of living like this. "We" are tired of seeing each other shat upon, and tired of seeing our world torn apart for money. "We" desire change, and "We" will bring it about, one way or another.

This is why I say that George Bush had to win the election!!! People weren't quite sick enough yet to make things change on an astronomical level! Now, we are getting that way, along with millions of other forms of life energy, and so things are happening. "We" are receiving wake-up calls because "We" are asking for them. It's all quite miraculous in my opinion. I love the way the world works.

I know that for me to say "I am god" will put some people off. It's considered blasphemous in the "christian" realm, at least, as far as I was taught, but I stand by my statement and know that whatever I decide is best for me is what will be because I do have the power to create in this place.

I do it every day, as do "We" all!

Love,

Ren'ai

April 1, 2005
7:14 pm
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mj.

You said:

"Do you think that all people who believe in God are immature?"

Was a neanderthal man immature? Are the pigmy tribes with their 'demons'and 'shamans' immature? Are the New Guinea tribes with their cargo cult immature? Are the Australian Aborigines with their dream time myths immature?

I think that from a cognitive development perspective and the ability of the cortex to control the amygdala humanity has a long way to go. See Dr. J. LeDoux(2002)NYU, "The Synaptic Self"

Yes on the evolutionary scale in the above sense, the vast majority of humanity are very 'immature'. Were it otherwise wars would have long since dissappeared from this planet! The religious right in the USA would never have existed to push their representative, G. Bush into power to create the present debacle in Iraq in the name of 'righteousness' and 'pre-emptive' self-defence. In this case its is not turning the other cheek - as Christ would have advocated -but 'taking your neighbour out' altogether just in case he might slap your cheek. Raw fear is in full control with the approval of the majority of US citizens. How mature is that??

April 1, 2005
7:22 pm
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Right on, Tez!

We are immature!

But what, then defines "mature"?

I'm not being a smart ass here, I'm really serious...

Love,

Ren'ai

April 1, 2005
8:54 pm
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I don't quite grasp your correlation between fear and God.

I don't believe in God because of fear. I believe in a higher power because I do. It works for me. I believe what you give out you receive. I agree that there are fearful people but I didn't really think fear and maturity were the same.

April 1, 2005
9:04 pm
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Ok, Ren'ai, I greatly respect your opinion, and I love teasing ya, but please don't ever ask me to pray to you, or confess my sins to you because they might wind up on these threads.

BTW, at my age it is great to be called immature...makes me feel 20 years younger šŸ™‚ I guess mature is anyone over 40 who acts like it.

Love,

Smart A** Coda_Mom

April 1, 2005
10:22 pm
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Ren'ai,

You know, that's a heck of a good question.

And I just don't know the answer. I have guesses and opinions, but I really just don't know. What I don't know fills libraries. There are libraries of just card catalogs of what I don't know.

My educated guesses:

Some believe that God is the creator of the Universe. If that is true, then God must be an exceedingly clever and resourceful individual.

My opinion is that if the Universe was created by God, then studying the universe might offer clues about the nature and purpose of God.

It is also my opinion that people say all kinds of things about God that and God worth the title probably would not approve of.

I am pretty sure that God is not a controlling parent figure who judges and punishes.

Scott Peck had an interesting observation though. He said that the remarkable thing about people is not that there is so much evil in the world. The remarkable thing is that there is so much goodness in people, that for the most part people so much want to be good, loving, and just. And the presence of that goodness just might have something to do with God.

Certainly bacteria and bugs and tsunamis don't seem to care what damage they do. But most people seem to have a deep desire to be good.

April 2, 2005
11:07 am
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Hi WD,

Thanks for your input on the subject. I don't think "god" is a judgmental, punishing parent, either. This has recently been the subject of deep debate between my STB-daughter-in-law, who was raised in a fundamentalist christian church, and myself. We beg to differ, and do so regularly. It amazes me that she and I can agree to disagree on so many levels yet continue to grow closer to one another.

I also read what you said about being in a position where someone made you feel like you were of little or no value, and that your self-esteem has been effected by all of this.

In what ways do you apply spirituality to the idea of "self?" Do you find such things to be helpful to you in your healing process?

I have always been highly focused spirtually, but not very focused physically. I am now going through a period of time where I'm forced to focus on my physical body because of chronic illness. This, I deduce, is the price I pay for having neglected this aspect of my journey on this particular plane of existance, during this lifetime...

Love to you, WD,

Ren'ai

April 2, 2005
1:34 pm
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Ren'ai,

I guess my sense of sprituality has been badly damaged by all of this. I was a deeply spiritual person when the yogurt hit the fan, and I see how my idealism blinded me to what was going on.

I still quite like the Teachings of Jesus, Buddha and Lao Tzu, but at this time I am really very secular in my outlook--a man of this world.

I can't say that I'm particularly happy this way though. I just don't feel as if I am as good a man as a used to be.

April 2, 2005
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Hi Renai,

I have been reading so many of your posts and responses on both threads, and all I can say is that you are an adimirable person. You sound like a warm, passionate, generous , kind person with big heart!!!

All these qualities talk loudly that God is in you, whether you realize it or not, confess it or not. I am not a psychiatrist, so I do not know why or what reasons forbid you from admitting your belief in God. But He is already in you, whether you realize it or not.

Love,

Rasputin

April 2, 2005
5:35 pm
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Ren'ai

In your post of 1-Apr-05 you posed the question:

"But what, then defines "mature"?"

On TV I recently saw a young 15 year old lad who was an unpaid 'carer' of his demented mother. The Carers Association was trying to get him government assistance. The TV presenter described this lad as "mature well beyond his years".

This lad:

1. Accepted responsibility for the welfare and the wellbeing of another - his mother.

2. He was devoid of all self pity in his predicament.

3. He was extremely rational and contemplative when presented with deep questions.

4. He had a deep seated confidence and competence in dealing with major life issues that would have daunted many 40 year olds.

5. Above all, he accepted responsibility for 'doing his own thinking' about life's issues. Whilst taking advice freely given, he didn't turn to others to tell him what he should 'think and believe' about his life circumstances.

Maturity, in my opinion is a word generally used to describe the attribute of someone whose cognitions are well and truly in control of their thoughts, feelings and actions. Such people have found the courage to introspectively look at themselves in relation to their world - warts and all.

On the other hand, in my opinion an immature person is someone whose emotions rule them and whose cognitions slavishly work to rationalize, justify and gratify every emotionally driven desire without consideration for how detrimental the outcomes of desire gratification might be. Characteristically, they often blame others for their failings and seek the praise of others for their successes. They want others to accept responsibility for meeting their own needs and disregard the needs of others. They abnegate all responsibility for thinking for themselves and look to authority figures to do their thinking and to define their moral standards for them.

For such immature people, often God is a 'big daddy in the sky' who might look after their gross and subtle security needs if thanked, gratified, worshipped, praised, begged and grovelled to with sufficient zeal and lip service.

If looked into at any real depth, the concept of an unconditionaly loving God separate from all that which 'he' supposedly created is absurd and totally irrational - it is a concept that is emotionally driven and backed up by an enslaved and blinkered intellect. That is why in my opinion, statements such as this evoke so much emotion in religiously 'immature' people.

April 2, 2005
6:05 pm
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mj.

You said:

"I agree that there are fearful people but I didn't really think fear and maturity were the same."

I didn't say that at all. In fact my search facility tells me that I never used the word 'immature' at all. But I implied as much anyway - so I will assume that I had. I was talking about the relationship between fear and people in seeking a 'big daddy in the sky'.

I hope my above post clearly gives my opinion on the strong relationship between the emotions, fear being just one emotional response, and 'maturity levels'. Of course I have introduced the other partner, cognitions, into the equation.

Put succinctly, maturity levels are a function of how cognitions and emotions interact and which one is dominant. Generally speaking in most human beings, emotions are 'dumb' and powerful while the intellect is 'smart' and weak. In our lower cousins the primates, their emotions almost totally dominate their responses. Eyeball a 'silverback' and see what happens. A 'mature' dog is far less emotional than an 'immature' dog.

Emotions are good things to have when under control - they are good servants but poor masters. Mature people know that.

April 2, 2005
6:20 pm
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Hi, Tez. Interesting discussion here! Whilst agreeing with much of your above post in the main, I must take issue with 2 points in particular, plus make a few general points.

1) Re. "every emotionally driven desire". Aren't ALL desires emotionally driven? Isn't that what "desires" are? I agree with Plato here: that all human motivation is emotionally driven - though of course the most serviseable actions and behaviours are filtered & moderated via the intellect (rational, cognitive faculties.)

2) Don't we all seek acknowledgement and praise of others for our successes to some extent? We do not - cannot - survive for long in total isolation, and have evolved as social beings. Our whole civilisations rely on social, societal constructs - i.e. sets of beliefs and mores that form our 'consensus realities' in different cultures. That is how cultures evolve, and why the approval or disapproval of others is vital for our existence as social animals, IMHO.

Finally, don't you mean "spiritually 'immature' people" by your last words?
Wouldn't it follow from your arguments to label all dogmatically-religions thinking as 'immature'?

Where I would beg to differ quite fundamentally from your extreme rationalist stance is that IMO we have developed many faculties to use in our being / doings in the world. Rational thought (cognition) is only one aspect of our total humanity - albeit an extremely important one. Equally, though differently important to me, are faculties of educated emotion, empathy with others, intuition, and spiritual awareness of ourselves as conscious agents of our thoughts / words / actions.
Think of Mr. Spock in Star Trek! There were times when his Vulcan logic alone was not enough to overcome difficulties & dangers for the good of all. Human intuition and the visceral, feeling self was necessary too. The visceral, non-verbal, inarticulate, a-rational side of our natures has a v important place in human fulfillment & betterment, in my opinion.

Maturity, for me, = as full an integration as possible of all our faculties. (After all, these evolved for survival value and progress of our species.) I'm not a disciple of Freud, but concepts like the Id, the Ego & the Superego may help here.

For me, no 1 aspect of our functioning should rule our behaviour.
I'd love to hear any feedback from you on this fascinating subject!

Blessings - Gazelle.

ps. 'Spiritual', for me, = the conscious will in action. And I DO believe in 'GOD' or a supreme creative, all-encompassing power. But not as a single, separate 'being' and certainly not as a rather flighty, temper-ridden, volatile invisible man in the sky, who gives & takes life ... rather like Zeus the begetter-and-zapper-with-thunderbolts! Lol.

April 2, 2005
6:22 pm
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My post above referred to your last-but-one, Tez. Your 2nd one only appeared here after I had posted.

April 3, 2005
12:51 pm
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CodaMom,

I would never disclose any of your sins on these threads! That would be unethical!!!

I'm only here to disclose my own "sins," live, learn, love, and grow.

Besides, what would such a good person have to confess about? šŸ˜‰

Love to you, CM!

Ren'ai

April 3, 2005
1:11 pm
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I think that there are many people who are "fear" driven in their beliefs, for example, they will adhere to a particular religious affiliation because they believe that by doing so they can avoid "hell." I think I have a bit of a concept for what Tez is trying to say.

I think a better word for "immature" might be "un-evolved." On the outside, because we believe we have such intellect, we believe we are the highest on the evolutionary chain in this place. But you don't see dolphins trying to figure out how to stock up on enough "WMD" to wipe out some other dolphin species, just in case things get real bad...

And I do believe many of us live in fear--of medical illness (thus tons of pharmaceuticals for the consumption of all!), of each other (thus we produce and "consume" more firearms than any other country), of the world around us (thus we seek ways to protect ourselves more creatively with things like "OnStar"), of "god" (thus, we constantly search for answers in RELIGION rather than in SPIRIT). These fears are all based on profit, by the way, for people in power in this country--people with a lot of money who want more money!

Remember when Oral Roberts went on TV and said that if he didn't raise like a million dollars within a certain amount of time that "god" was going to strike him dead?! And he got the money! This man lived better than 99% of America at the time!

Pay attention to what the media is trying to feed you, both overtly and covertly, and you can see the element of fear interwoven in much of what is out there.

This is why, I believe, things that are of "nature" like the tsunami and other "natural disasters" are taking place. You can't predict them, as much as we want to believe we can! You can't decide when and where they strike. And when it comes down to it, you just have to keep on putting one foot in front of the other regardless. If you allow it, these things can bring about the dissolution of fear and the knowledge that things will happen, you can't control it, and you have to keep on putting one foot in front of the other over and over again until you are in the grave, or throw in the towel and suicide--period.

Tez, I do, however, believe that the young man you spoke of is caring for his mother out of his "desire" to do so. I don't think that negates his actions. I do think it is a valid piece of the puzzle to be pondered, however.

Love to all!!!

Ren'ai

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