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Nice guy
February 24, 2006
9:18 pm
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nice guy
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Is it ok to have sex before marriage if everyone is doing it? Does religion accept that or is it ok to do it and ask for forgiveness? Do you think that most people put on an act from a church background saying that they will never break some of the rules and then do it without anyone finding out about it. Are we hypocrits?

February 24, 2006
9:39 pm
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I was a fervent, serious, deeply devoted, naive, practising conventional Christian all my life until about 6 or 7 years ago. (I'll leave my spiritual history & wonderful recent growth out of it for now.)

But to answer your questions from my erstwhile solid Christian point of view, I would say ... & you won't like this ...

NO! (Would it be ok to rape or murder just because 'everyone' was doing it? Like all the torture & human rights abuses during wars? If 'everyone' was beating someone up, would it be ok to join in?)

NO! That is 'malice aforethought' & totally disingenuous.

Yes! & YES! again to the final 2.

Ouch! Tough, isn't it? But I have to be honest.

My views on many things have changed & grown over the years as I have matured & extended my education & insights. Especially about what it is to be human and the nature of morality. My world-view has developed & expanded hugely from simple conformist "Christianity", which as I see it has little to do with the life & teachings of Jesus.

I have invested many hundreds of hours in reading & discussion, and especially in my studies on different religions & philosophies, history, theology, & general "What's it all about?"- type Big Questions.

Of course I'm not claiming to be 'right' - but merely that I have looked into lots of things beneath the surface presented by 'powers that be' - both religious & secular - to the masses (much of which is about increasing & preserving their own power & riches.)

I would love to share some of my views on here. Always 'work in progress'. The day I stop growing & changing will be the day I die. Lol.

It's 2.30am here & I must go to bed, but am up for deeper discussion another day.

Blessings - gazelle.

February 24, 2006
10:36 pm
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readyforachange
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I was raised Catholic. In my religion, it is definitely not okay to have sex outside of marriage. I was married for 17 years, and have only had sex with my ex-husband. In order for me to remain faithful to the teachings of the church, I cannot have sex until my marriage is annulled and I marry again. I'm 43...is that going to happen? I don't know. The thing is, I don't really miss sex that much. I much more miss having someone to do things with, share things with, go places with, talk with...

BUT...it also pains me that people don't view me as a good Catholic anymore because I am divorced. I have had people give me dirty looks at church when I receive communion, as if I am doing something wrong. I actually had someone say to me, "Can you still be Catholic now that you are divorced?"

It hurts me that I would not be able to receive communion if I remarried without an annulment or had sex before I was married, but that some priests that have abused young children are still allowed to. I don't understand many things, but it is my faith.

Anyway, I know for a fact that many Catholics have sex outside of marriage. It's probably the norm. They figure it's okay because they aren't hurting anyone. It's a complicated issue, and I sometimes can see their point.

It's too late for me to be up....I was up until 3 last night, and it's almost 10 so I'm beat...maybe I'll check in tomorrow.

February 25, 2006
1:09 am
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free2choose
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"Is it OK to have sex before marriage?"

In my opinion, YES! (I do not identify as Christian, yet I was raised Catholic and feel myself to be recovering from the spiritual abuse I was subjected to as a child.)

What everyone else is doing or not doing should not even come into play. Just like Gazelle said, if everyone was doing the things she mentioned would that make it ok to follow suit, well, NO, not if you personally view those things to be morally wrong or harmfull to yourself or someone else.

I believe that we all have (ot should have) our own PERSONAL code of moral conduct. Standards and values set for ourselves that we can hold ourself accountable for. Mine personally does not include premarital sex, for one because I am gay and can't get married, but more importantly, because I see nothing wrong with using sex as an expression of love or affection for another person, as long as we are doing it for the right reasons, and our behavior is not harming ourself or anyone else. See now that value says yes to sex but NO to cheating, helping someone else cheat, having sex with random people out of addiction or using other people for sex.

With religion, there are set rules or values that all practicing members of that religion are expected to heed and abide by. There are to be not excuses, they are just things you are not supposed to do, and if you do it is considered "sinning" against God, and against the church. This form of thought completely takes away the personal nature of our relationship with our Creator and our choice of what is right FOR US, what is True for US individually.

This is why, although I do very much like parts of Catholic mass and do often yearn for the fellowship and solidarity of being part of organized religion, I can not in any way say that I am a "Christian". Because some of my most instinctual TRUTHS, such as my homosexuality, goes against the basic principles of religious beliefs.

If one choses to call themselves "Christian" then yes, it is hypocritical to pick and choose the parts you want to keep and the parts that do not fit. You either are, or you aren't. Not that people do not make mistakes, but blatant disregard for the rules, and premeditated "sinning" is pretty reprehensible, and it is the very thing that makes me abhor most Christian people. The ones who want to preach, then go doing the dirty when they think no ones watching, or that all they have to do is ask for absolution and that it'll all be OK when they knew damn well what they did was wrong and did it anyway.

Just my Opinion
Free

February 25, 2006
8:57 am
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nice guy
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There are 3 good topics here that I am interested in and in time would like to discuss all to them because I am very interested. The first one is with gazelle. Why did you leave your beliefs on religion? I don't claim to have all the answers. I just believe in God and if I don't know everything or understand everything that is still ok.
Readyforchange you have a good ethical background and yet some people won't let you have communion. I personally don't think that is right. But like I have said I don't have all the answers.
Free2choose I have never discussed anything with someone who is gay and would like to know more about how you think about things. I have been a little closed minded in the past about that subject but am willing to try to understand your point of view. I will check back later and see if anyone would like to visit.

February 26, 2006
4:00 pm
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mamacinnamon
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NO

NO

and

YES

February 26, 2006
4:38 pm
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mamacinnamon
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niceguy: not bein a smartie there. just was in a hurry. Will post later. Sorry.

February 26, 2006
8:50 pm
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nice guy
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Good, I need some more thoughts on this.

February 26, 2006
9:10 pm
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Anonymous
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Nice guy,

My answers to your four questions are hardly revolutionary:

No, No, Yes, Yes.

The reasons for the two Yes's is that many do not do what they need to do in order to succeed in abstaining from sex outside marriage.

In spite of all my own precautions (not spending time alone with another woman, watching what I said to them, making sure my wife knew about any potentially compromising situations, etc), the only thing that ultimately prevented me from having an affair is that I believed it would be wrong, and I had promised God I would be faithful to my wife, and I didn't want to displease him.

Seeker

February 26, 2006
11:19 pm
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nice guy
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seekerw. I agree with you 100%. I commend you for being loyal to your wife and God. I have tried many years to be loyal to God and have fallen short. I am a hypocrit. I tried to stay on the straight and narrow and came up short. I have never married and yet fooled around a little with one woman. I didn't practice what I preached and feel bad about it.

February 26, 2006
11:26 pm
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free2choose
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Hey nice guy..

LOL, that's funny...Mr. Nice Guy...is that from a movie or something, I don't know why but that just tickled the heck out of me.

Anyways, Mr. Nice Guy (ROFLMbuttO,sorry couldn't help myself)...UmmmmHummm*clears throat,getting down to buisiness* Anyways...

I'd be willing to talk to you about any questions that you may have, as long as they are not offensive, and you do not try to preach the Bible to me. I love talking to people, listning to their opinions and having them hear mine, but I will not cross the line into debating Christian morlity in reference to homosexuality, I find it is like beating my head into a wall and serves no purpose other than really P*ssing me off. So....if you can agree to the boundaries that I have set, COOL, lets talk!! ๐Ÿ˜‰

Go ahead, hit me with yer best shot!! Fire away...(the question,lol)

Respectfully,
Erica
free2choose

February 27, 2006
12:01 am
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mamacinnamon
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Nice guy:

I think what you are trying to say is described well in Romans 7:15-20... I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to doโ€”this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

There is no way you are gonna be perfect, but you know you are forgiven if you ask. Does that still make you a hypocrite? Are we not all hypocrites at one time or another? I think so.

February 27, 2006
2:40 pm
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kathygy
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nice guy,

There's nothing in the 10 commandements that say having sex within a committed love relationship outside of marriage is wrong or sinful. There is talk about adultry and prositution being sinful.

But no where is there any mention of a committed loving realtionship and pre-marital sex.

I choose to believe that sex is healthy and natural between two people who love each other and are committed to each other married or not.

Why should this be a sin?

Why should you let other people's interpretations guide you in your own life choices?

Sometimes people who have issues with sex hide behind relegion in order to avoid sex.

I suggest you do your OWN thinking on what is best for you and not rely on what other people say. Just because some Christians believe pre-marital sex is a sin or an offense against God dosen't make it so.

You might try having a private conversation with God about this issue and let your choices be between you and your God.

February 27, 2006
7:39 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Nice guy:

I agree w/ Kathy that you should talk to God and that you and he should be the ones making your decisions. However, I totally disagree w/ Kathy when she said โ€œBut no where is there any mention of a committed loving realtionship and pre-marital sexโ€.

Here are the verses in the Bible that speak of relationships and premarital sex to aid you in your research::

Ruth chapters 2-3;
Ruth 3:10-14

1 Samuel 20

1 Kings 11:1-13

Proverbs 2:5-9;
Proverbs 13:20;
Proverbs 17:17;
Proverbs 22:24;
Proverbs 27:6-9

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12

Amos 3:3

Luke 6:28

John 13:34-35

Romans 12:9-21

1 Corinthians 6:18-20;
1 Corinthians 13

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Ephesians 4:31-32

Philippians 2:3-4

Colossians 3:13

1 John 4:7-8

Hope that helps w/ your research.

February 27, 2006
9:42 pm
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Anonymous
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Kathygy,

{There's nothing in the 10 commandements that say having sex within a committed love relationship outside of marriage is wrong or sinful.}

I beg to differ with you, Kathy. The seventh commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery, actually includes all sex outside marriage. A married couple were the only ones allowed to have sex. The ancient Hebrews had a stricter definition of adultery than we have today.

Also, by the law of Moses, if a man and woman were found to be having sex, and neither were married, the man was to marry her, and he was not allowed to divorce her.

So you had one chance, and only one chance, to have sex outside marriage. If you did, you were stuck with that person for life, whether you wanted to be or not. THAT would make people think twice before having sex, wouldn't it?

BTW, that is excellent advice to talk to God about the matter. Seems a bit unusual coming from you, but I welcome it.

Seeker

February 27, 2006
10:10 pm
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mamac,

Thanks for the verses you referenced. I've printed them out and will look them over tonight.

Seeker

February 27, 2006
11:14 pm
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nice guy
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I have also printed out the verses and will look them up. I think that religion can get a little carried away at times. Who really knows what is right or what is wrong? In my heart I feel that it is wrong to have premarital sex. The guilt factor is what really gets me. When I fooled around with one woman I had so much guilt inside of me for not being married that all I could do was oral sex. I couldn't have intercourse. I am attracted to women but the guilt has been too much for me in the past. I won't let guilt control my life anymore but I will be married when I have intercourse.

February 27, 2006
11:25 pm
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free2choose,
I will not discuss religion with you. I just don't know what your lifestyle is like and haven't taken the time to understand. I am interested in your point of view without judging you. Without trying to make you mad or uncomfortable, have you been gay since you were a kid? I don't know any gay people, or at least I don't know who they are if I do know them. Is it easier for you now than years ago? Do more people accept your way of life than earlier years? What is it like to be gay? Is it really difficult or are people accepting of you? I am interested in your view because I haven't taken the time to find out in the past.

February 28, 2006
2:29 am
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free2choose
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Hiya Mr. Nice Guy! ๐Ÿ˜‰

Thanks for the respect about the boundaries, I apreciate it. Now I'll answer those questions, which are pretty big questions...meaning that it might take a lot to answer, you know...broad subjets. But right off the top I want you to know that I am speaking for me, not for all gay-kind, LOL(like mankind! ;)just a funny.)

Anyways...questions, OK

"have you been gay since you were a kid?"~~ Ummm, well, I don't know how to answer that one. I dated boys all through middle and high school, in fact I had the same boyfriend from freshman year until after I graduated and once I thought we would get married. But you see, this is what was expected of me, it was all that I knew! I'm from a small town in Louisiana and truthfully, there were not alot of Out gays around here!! There were no gay rolemodels, no one for me to learn from, so I just ignored my dislike of the boys and picked a boyfriend who was real meek and did not demand much from me (sexually, I mean.) My close friendships with my female friends were more like romantic love affairs (without the physical aspect) on my part. I was in love with my best friend in high school, although at the time I did not realize it.

"Is it easier for you now than years ago?"~~ Well, I am only 26 and I have only been Out for like 8 years, so I'm not sure what you mean when you ask this. I know that my friends who are older and who were trying to live life as a lesbian like 10 or 15 years ago tell me it is MUCH better now. Still not perfect, we still face a HUGE amount of hate and discrimination, but it is getting better.

"Do more people accept your way of life than earlier years?"~~ Socially, kinda same answer as above. Personally, yes, my family is much more accepting of it now than when I first came out. My dad sort of disowned me at first, although I'm sure from our history he was just waiting for a reason, but even he is alot better now. I bring my partner to family dinners and stuff. Now it is the little things. Like my sister and her husband can hold hands and kiss and sit all loved up on the couch, nut when we go home (to my parents) we are expected to act as if we are just close friends, no affection, no pet names, it makes everyone uncomfortable. And when my sister got married, my parents paid for it, but my dad refuses to help us pay for our commitment ceremony because he does not believe gays should get married. And also, we are looking into getting pregnant. My family can not wait for my sister to get pregnant and have a baby but when I mentioned we were thiking abou it, everyone just got real scilent and then changed the subject. So even though I am for the most part accepted, there are still HUGE differences in the way I am treated and the way my straight sister is treated. Still face discrimination in my own family, what can I expect from America??

"What is it like to be gay?"~~ WOW, LOL, that is a huge question...you might have to be a little more specific. I mean, most of the time, I don't even think about it, it is just who I am, I'm just me being me, you know. The only time I really think about it is when my girl and I are holding hands walking down the shopping isle and I get some dirty look from the old lady standing by the ground meat, then she turns to her friend and says, "Look it's a gay, Myrtle. How dare they?"

"Is it really difficult or are people accepting of you?"~~ Ummm, the best answer for that is acceptance comes in degrees. SOme people are completely ANTI-gay. Some folks could care less. Most people are somewhere in the middle. It can at times be very difficult, very painfull, and I feel very much like an outcast. Sometimes I get very angry, like when the people pass me in their cars on the street, with that damn yellow bumper sticker with the little man and woman stick figures screaming, "Marriage=one man one woman." Sometimes I want to run them off the road. Someimes I just cry. It is a shame that in this world where there is such a need for more love and kindness that a love as pure and as beautifull as the one I share with my partner could be looked down upon as dirty or wrong when it should be celebrated for the beauty that it is.

So there are your answers, I hope that gives you some insights. About what it is like to be gay...well you gotta break that question down some. ๐Ÿ™‚ Anything else, don't be afraid to ask.

((((Mr Nice Guy))))

Erica

February 28, 2006
1:35 pm
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kathygy
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seeker,

I read the ten commandments in great detail before posting my opinion.

I see nothing that defines adultry as any sex outside of marriage.

"Also, by the law of Moses, if a man and woman were found to be having sex, and neither were married, the man was to marry her, and he was not allowed to divorce her.

So you had one chance, and only one chance, to have sex outside marriage. If you did, you were stuck with that person for life, whether you wanted to be or not. THAT would make people think twice before having sex, wouldn't it? "

If that is a realistic intrepreatation than I think it is ludicrius. I don't buy into that thinking. Why would this matter to Moses? Why the big deal?

I'm sure a lot of people had sex anyway.

According to the catholic church if I have pre-marital sex it is a mortal sin and I would have to spend ETERNITY in hell for this.

That sounds rather harsh and way, way out of proportion to the behavior. I don't see the logic why this is such a horrible thing to do when two people love each other and are committed to each other. Why should God care?????

February 28, 2006
10:26 pm
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nice guy
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Hi Free2choose - Erica
The reason why I am interested in your views is because I found out that my last girlfriend was bisexual and I didn't understand. I broke up with her. It was difficult for me and I didn't have an open mind at all at the time. I just want to visit with you from time to time and if you don't mind a question every once in a while it might be helpful for me to understand. Thank you for being open with me and have a nice day.

March 1, 2006
12:39 am
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free2choose
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Kathy... I totally agree...personally I think that we as humans have NO WAY to comprehend a time span like "eternity". It does sound impossible long though!! Also I would never believe in God that base what we do in these average 80 years of life on this planet and use that as a guide to what to do with our souls FOR ETERNITY!!! I also refuse to agree with the thought or belief that a God who is supposed to be compassionate and loving would actually DAMN someone to HELL for all ETERNITY for ANYTHING!!! We should at least get to come back and try it all again, right. I mean, dosen't everyone deserve at least a SECOND CHANCE???

More abuse designed to shame and fear people into a standard of living deemed apropriate by a bunch of MEN who wanted control and domination and used God as their weapon of choice.

Erica

March 1, 2006
12:44 am
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free2choose
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Mr. Nice Guy...

Lots of people, both gays and straights I think are a bit perplexed and threatened with a Bi partner. I know I could not handle it. It's OK.

And anytime you have a question, let me know. It's all good!!!

๐Ÿ˜‰

Erica

March 1, 2006
11:27 am
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Kathygy,

I did some research into the subject of adultery in the 10 commandments, and it appears I was wrong about something.

I don't have time to explain now, but will later. It will be while before I can post next, so I wanted to let you know in the meantime.

Seeker

March 1, 2006
10:31 pm
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free2choose,

{I also refuse to agree with the thought or belief that a God who is supposed to be compassionate and loving would actually DAMN someone to HELL for all ETERNITY for ANYTHING!!! We should at least get to come back and try it all again, right. I mean, dosen't everyone deserve at least a SECOND CHANCE???}

If it makes you feel better, the wicked, even Hitler, won't be damned to hell for all eternity. They'll be damned to hell only until the end of the Millenium (roughly a thousand years from now). They'll then be resurrected and live for eternity in a kingdom that's far more glorious than this present earth. Far more glorious.

Seeker

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