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Marraige: An immature, emotional and unrealistic contract
October 10, 2004
3:03 pm
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workinonit
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This is the goal free. You said it very well and I congratulate you on the so far successful adaptation in your own life.

I think about the original expectations I had going into marriage at 19.(God how horrible) I thought I would have kids, settle down, be happy, and what.....mindless? Maybe. As I grew, he tried smothering and controlling with many covertly manipulative methods. Being so young and naive, I didn't see it or understand when I felt something wasn't right in my euphoria.

I am somewhere in the middle os free and twinks. So there seems to be a maturity process in understanding yourself that leads to not having expectations in a relationship. Is that accurate free?

My life improvement quest is moving forward rapidly and I am really enjoying myself!!!

October 10, 2004
7:22 pm
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SweetAmanda
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Well, I am 20. I still think that there is a perfect guy out there for me! I just think that I have to get myself all straightened out. I dunno. I don't want to stop believing that yet. =(

October 10, 2004
11:46 pm
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SweetAmanda
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Free,

Wow, what you are saying sounds wonderful: "Just loving freely, safely, and without fear" But what if children are involved? Is it best to continue to live apart like that? Or should you get married? I guess it's all to each his/her own... I don't think that makes me bad that I someday want to be married. Maybe have a family. I believe that if both people really try, no matter what the situation...living apart, or marriage...It can work out wonderfully. =) ~Amanda~

October 11, 2004
2:55 am
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free
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Well, workinonit, I do have expectations of my honey, and him of me. We expect one another to be monogomous. We expect one another to never disrespect the other, to each other's faces, or out in public, or in private with somebody else. Would you believe that in 5 and a half years neither one of us has called the other a bad name or said something knowingly hurtful-hitting below the belt type of thing?

Neither one of us is perfect. So that means we've been hurt or angry or upset. So ya say "I'm hurt, angry, upset." And talk it out. When this has happened, it's always been an "Oh, my gosh" response, "I'm so sorry." and it's been meant. It's never defensive. We each have the right to be hurt or angry or upset. And we've agreed to disagree on some very sensitive issues, such as abortion and handing out condoms.

We're both very sensitive as we've both been very hurt. We both expect each other to respect that.

We'd both be devastated if the other did not.

I don't wanna get married or live together yet because I don't see the benefit. I see possibly ruining a very good thing.Plus, I have kids to raise, and bottom line, they come first, relationship second. That can be death to a marriage.

wrokinonit, if kids are involved, I think things really change. They need stability so bad. This whole concept is part of what kept me with mh ex monster for so long. Kids need two parents who make things work.

If my honey and I had a child together, well, everything changes.

My own parents made it work. almost 50 years now. And they've been through some pretty tough times, including the death of a baby and sever financial setbacks. But ya know, in all my childhood, not one time did I ever hear either of them speak ugly to the other. I could tell they were angry by their tone. But there was never name calling, never screaming or yelling, never hurting. there was disagreeing. They lost a house finances got so bad, and I can only see how difficult things must have been now that I'm grown. I never knew we were struggling financially as a child. They lost a 13 month old, and the pain was something we all dealt with, a part of life as horrible as it was. They were down to earth, we went all over the place, to the beach, camping, hiking, picnics, fishing, dad was the scoutmaster, mom the den leader and girl scout leader, room mother, etc. We sat at the table every night for dinner and said grace. But they weren't God Squad- religion was not pushed down our throats, we just tried to live the right life and be a family, with all the sibling rivalry and crap that goes on along with the good stuff.

I had the childhood every child dreams of. Because I had two parents who loved each other and loved their children above all else. Two parents who would have sacrificed anything and everything for the welfare of the family, but never had to, kuz neither parent ever requested it from the other. They just worked together.

And to this day, they are the cutest couple. High School sweethearts.

It takes two to make a marriage like this. But only one to make it never happen.

I just really think they both got extraordinarily lucky.

But then, I do have the oldest brother. Ya know, the perfect sibling. Was the perfect son, the perfect scholar, the perfect athlete, and is now living in the perfect house with the perfect wife raising six, yep six, perfect kids.

And the other have the perfect life thing goin on as well.

I'm the black sheep. Blew it.

I have the almost perfect life- my life has that dark spot in it, the ex and all the memories that accompany the ex. Kinda like the ex-files lol.

Why would I want to risk blowing it again?

He's on his fourth marriage now. I've been contemplating number two for a little over two years (he proposed in June two years ago.) I said yes. But not when.

free

October 11, 2004
11:28 am
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Cici
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The next social paradigm? Egads....that would probably get me big research dollars, wouldn't it? har har har. snark.

My parents have been married nearly 30 years. As far as I can tell, marriage becomes more like hey we're comfy friends.

When I was 20, because of a traditional upbringing, I assumed that I would marry and raise a family and be all stable like the rest of my family. Unfortunatley that wasn't in the cards.

I just don't personally want to be laboring under the aegis of yet another contract. I don't understand the necessity of marriage and never have.

You can raise kids without being married. You can live together without being married. You can share property, be the beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and have a joint bank account without being married.

What, exactly, is the point of the legal contract?

Historically marriage was the transfer of property (the bride) between two parties (father to husband), and the main reason for the legally protective issues in the marriage contract were because the woman was not considered human, was unable to own property, and was not allowed to be gainfully employed for a living wage or enjoy the benefits of higher education.

This is no longer the case.

What is the point of marriage, then? Would someone please answer me because I have been dying to know this since I was aware that marriage occurred.

October 11, 2004
3:49 pm
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Anonymous
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Free! I really love your marriage contract, except the part about not licking or doinking others...

Does "marriage" go hand-in-hand with monogamy?

For me, the point of "marriage" came the first time I made love to my partner. It just was, for both of us.

But sexually, I still have my little temptations...

October 11, 2004
8:35 pm
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SweetAmanda
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Free,

This older brother of yours...With the six children...*lol* Do any of these 'perfect' children happen to be male and between the ages of, (oh...I dunno) 18-28? *smiling* Oh, yeah, and single too! hehe Just wondering if there really is such a thing! But I bet you are just blinded by the love you have from being in such a family! *sigh* My wishful thinking! Oh hey, when does your Hunny get back from that trip thing? And from how you talk about your relationship with him, it sounds wonderful! So, do you talk to him about anything? And does he feel the same way as you about marriage? If so, that is neat to find someone so insync with you! *hugs* You definitely deserve it! ~Amanda~

October 11, 2004
8:52 pm
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Did that poor excuse for a human being crash this site?

It's Monday afternoon, and every time I try to access the support threads, I get hijacked to "the risenrealm crash" which is just a thing that puts the computer on hold forever.

Is anybody else coming in through the back door?

If so, post okay?

I want this person's head.

free

October 11, 2004
9:06 pm
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SweetAmanda
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Free, I have the threads bookmarked on my computer...So I haven't had any problems. Hmmm. It is Monday night here... 9:05 PM Eastern =) I will try to access this site some other way to see if I come across any problems. Maybe they are playing silly games with you for warning them with the pegs? I dunno. ~Amanda~

October 12, 2004
11:33 am
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sixfootblonde
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Hey free. Girl, you kill me!! No lickin or doinkin others ... ROFLMFAO.

Marriage. I don't understand. I don't understand how people change and grow and ever end up the same as they were, or how they grow together. I love my husband deeply and cannot fathom his absence in my life. But the fact of the matter is, there are integral needs of mine that he does not nor has he ever really met. It's not purposeful, it's simply not in his makeup, I've come to believe. Somehow along the way, a very very deep and close friendship I have had with my rescue squad partner has deepened. He is there for me in emotional ways my husband refuses -- my husband just does not get how to talk things out, how to express verbally how and why he feels, etc. He won't. He won't go to counseling. Says he is fine with how things are, if I am not, then perhaps I need to seek counseling but he does not. My partner and I recently discussed what has been happening around us for a long time -- as we discuss everything. At home it's always been, don't talk about it and it will go away. Well, you know how that works... So my partner tells me when I ask what's going on here, that he is in love with his best friend -- me. Mind you, this has gone no further as far as physically. He is not pushing, he is apologizing for how he feels, but says that it's there and it's not going anywhere. We are trying so hard to do the right thing. Ok, so I have a decision to make. It is the saddest thing in the world to me, and I don't understand how or what to do. I wasn't looking for this. I didn't set out for it to happen. But it's there, it's real, and it's deep.

I don't know if humans are unable to remain in one committed relationship for the remainder of their days, or if maybe I'm just not. Or am I , but not with the spouse I am with? But, I love him. There is no doubt. I dont' love him like I used to, but we have ten years between us and his presence in my life is a dear thing. I won't hurt him. I know that. I will lose my friend first. But that seems impossible too.

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Life is so confusing. I don't care what 'they' say. 'They' are full of it, whoever tells you otherwise.

October 12, 2004
12:45 pm
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Cici
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dammit! i wish someone could answer my question.

October 12, 2004
1:36 pm
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sixfootblonde
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What is the point of marriage? Cici, girl, I'd tell ya. If I knew. I guess it's a legal way to say hey, I'm going to be vested in this relationship, I will share my life with you and I'm hoping for the best.

Of course it's diff things to diff people. Therein lies the rub.

October 12, 2004
2:13 pm
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Cici
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I've asked others not on this site and I get everything from judeo-christian morality (all well and good, but not really good in explaining why, say, hindu people stay married, or buddhists, or pagans), to sociological statistics (married people are happier and live longer than "singletons" - uck what a term).

But I don't see what, essentially, a piece of paper does. Then again, twinks, as you said...that probably explains my unsuccessful marriage!

Ya know, everything was great between my husband and I until we got married, then it all went down the proverbial crapper.

October 12, 2004
2:28 pm
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sixfootblonde
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AMEN!! Oh Cici, amen on the last statement. How true.

October 12, 2004
7:08 pm
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Well, that perfect brother I have described is just one of those people that always makes the right choices. There's gotta be a certain amount of luck in that ya know?

In all honesty, I don't see the benefits to marriage. I think the piece of paper makes it EXTREMELY difficult to walk away from a marriage. It also makes it hard to get out of one without paying bookoo bucks to the legal system, especially if there are kids involved and one party decides to wage a custody battle. there isn't a tax benefit to marriage, it's worse- it's a marriage tax. I know there was lots of talk about that in the political arena, so maye the marriage tax issue has been addressed, I don't follow that too closely.

I like my relationship, but ya know, I think I would like a marriage like the one my brother has. Or should I say, I would have like one like this.

But now that I've been through a marriage made in hell, I don't think I could ever again have the same outlook on marriage. It's like an innocence has been lost or something. Does that make sense? I don't know that it's walls, maybe they are (been thinkin about this since it was posted above), but if they are, I don't see them as bad, as something to take down.

I feel like right now I have my cake and eat it too. I don't mean that in a bad way. My honey seems to feel the same way. He feels he has his cake and eats it too.

anyhow, this thread has me thinking.

Hopefully not walking down any aisles anytime soon, though. I kinda like the ten year plan.

free

October 14, 2004
10:08 pm
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workinonit
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What is the point of marriage?

You gave us the historical perspective and we all know the famous,"everything was fine til we got married" thing. Said that one myself about my recent ex. When two people over retirement get married they lose a social security check or al least some of the benefits.

Kids, has to be the only point but as Cici said, many do just fine outside of wedded blisters.

No point as far as I am concerned except to show the difference. Like, how would you know good if there was no bad! Right?

In my opinion, ( and we all know I usually have one) each couple needs to set up there own way. If monogamy works, go there. If you like to have an occasional fling and your partner says ok as long as I can watch, who cares. Too many societal parameters and do and don'ts. Who says they know and who the hell are they anyway?

Right now, I am too afraid to do anything but have casual sex and that has never been my way. Oh well, first time for everything and my last attempt at marriage.

Just a few cents worth.....

October 15, 2004
1:48 pm
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Cici
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Was talking to my Dad about this. He said even in the '50s and '60s, he knew lots of couples that lives on the base in navy housing who lived together for years, got married, then got divorced 6 months later....weird.

Happened to my ex's mom. She and his dad were together for like 10 years. She got pregnant and he insisted they marry, a year later they got divorced!

October 15, 2004
3:47 pm
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workinonit
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I wonder if this is a bigger expectation that exists within the confines of this institution? Personally, I think if women were raised to feel they could succeed on their own, the marriages would be more like partnerships but, since the underlying emotional notion is men are "the head" or "wear the pants" women become defensive without even realizing it. Maybe the feeling of independence dissapates after marriage for women, all because of a preconceived notion that has power!

Interesting, what do you think?

October 15, 2004
4:30 pm
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Cici
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i agree, workin - marriage changes the expectations and framework of the relationship. Like with my husband, I didn't marry to fix anything. Just assumed it was the next step. But the context of our relationship changed completely, and subconscious assumptions about marriage surfaced.

All the hang ups we inherited from our parents - we started replaying them between ourselves. I started being crazy like my mom, he became an alcoholic like his dad....

October 15, 2004
11:43 pm
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Wow... I really would like to jump in on this one...But I'll wait...

Interesting....

October 16, 2004
1:39 am
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SweetAmanda
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This is getting good. I am learning so much from you guys...And really questioning what I think about things I have just accepted my entire life. ~Amanda~

October 18, 2004
8:40 pm
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There is a great PBS documentary that goes into much detail about this - It's called the "Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell as interviewed by Bill Moyers. Goes across the spectrum of world history about marriage with different cultures etc....great flick to catch!
Compelling, broad and profound.

October 19, 2004
11:03 am
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upfront
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I'm just thinking at the time that when I do things it makes sense. I got married at 22 to have children and I thought I was in "love".

My ideas have changed in the last 25 years. As I'm sure most peoples do. "Love" is different to me now. If I were going to have children again, I would probably get married again because of the culture that I live in, the stigma of not having a father who acknowledges you with a legitimate society endorsed relationship (marriage) with your mother is deep. These are called "outside" children in our country. (Similar to the red headed step child).

As an adult though who will not have children again, I would not get married. It is no guarantee. Each person's perception of what marriage is seems to depend on how and where they were raised and what their examples were and how they are. ( I don't know many Ozzie and Harriet types.)

Marriage does not mean fidelity, it does not mean financial security, it does not mean an emotionally equal partner, it seems to be a "story", like the creation, that we can all interpret how we want. And everyone has their own interpretation of what it should be.

Also, many people, including myself, carried great expectations into marriage, many that I was not even conscious of at the time.

Maybe I think too much.

October 19, 2004
3:56 pm
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sixfootblonde
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Those expectations, I think, are what poison the union more than anything. How about not expecting anything more than what we are willing to put in ourselves? How about just taking each day as it comes and trying to do the best we can, by each other, out of respect?

I am trying. No one said it would be easy. And it's not!

October 24, 2004
4:29 pm
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Supposedly a reporter once asked Cher if she believed in the institution of marriage, to which she replied "Yes, but who wants to live in an institution?!"

What I do have to wonder is why any rational person would ever choose to have children.

Also, does the brake fluid and chlorox thing really work?

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