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Marraige: An immature, emotional and unrealistic contract
March 16, 2004
5:05 pm
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Marraige vows state:
-------------------------
(MAN), will you have this woman as your lawful wedded wife, to live together in the estate of matrimony? Will you love her, honor her, comfort her, and keep her in sickness and in health; forsaking all others, be true to her as long as you both shall live? (I will).

(WOMAN), will you have this man as your lawful wedded husband, to live together in the estate of matrimony? Will you love him, honor him, comfort him, and keep him in sickness and in health; forsaking all others, be true to him **** as long as you both shall live? **** (I will).

I,, takeas my wedded wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, **** till death do us part ****.

I,, takeas my wedded husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, *** till death do us part. ****

#################################

Lines which I want to focus on:
**** as long as you both shall live? ****
*** till death do us part. ***

Whats this? This is completely immature, emotional and unrealistic. It assumes:
- this partner is the best that I can get out of all the 3 billion on Earth.
- I will always love them, my love will never change
- She or He will never become bad or change their personality.

Marraige laws are stupid essentially. How can anyone assume that they'll keep loving that person for the rest of their life? 66% of marriages end up in divorce. Whats the point of making a promise that has a high rate of failure? A more wiser, more mature contract with more foresight would be something like: "I really like this guy/girl and we'll live together for as long as things are OK and if he or she changes his personality or becomes someone I hate, I will cancel the contract".

So again, the tradidional marraige is stupid and unrealistic. I'm thinking I will not make the traditional marraige contract when its my turn. I dont like to make promises that I might break later on.

March 16, 2004
8:53 pm
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gingerleigh
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Marriage is not for everyone. It's definitely not for the emotionally weak or non-committed. Marriage does have more to it than just a contract, at least for some people. For some, it is a religious ceremony, with much spiritual significance, representing a promise not only to each other, but also to God. Calling it stupid would be like calling Passover or Christmas stupid. For some, these times have no meaning, but for others, they are very solemn and core to their belief structure.

I think it's very special when two people choose to make that life committment. I recognize that this is a hard thing to do and stick with, year in and year out. Why not be inspired by it rather than attacking the institution of marriage and calling it stupid? No one is forcing you to get married (at least as far as I know...) so no big deal, right?

I see that you cited that 66% of marriages end in divorce. I will take you for your word that this is good data. Do you think that people who co-habitate without being married have a longer success rate of staying together? I have never seen stats on that. Probably a harder number to get.

I take my marriage vows very seriously. It brings me happiness and strength each day as I work through the coming year of separation while my husband is in Iraq. And he writes me that he feels the same way. Works for us, and definitely not stupid in my book, and I'm no dummy.

March 17, 2004
12:41 am
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ginger,
I wish you good luck in your relationship and i hope your hubby returns back safe and soon.

>> It's definitely not for the emotionally weak or non-committed. << you're saying that 66% of people are non-commited or emotionally weak? (they end up divorcing and breaking the marraige contract). >> I recognize that this is a hard thing to do and stick with, year in and year out. << the fact that its hard - it doesnt mean its the *right* thing to do. Its hard standing on your head for 24 hours too. It doesnt matter if its hard or not. Does it make sense? Also, many people dont beleive in God. 25 million of Americans are atheists or agnostics. Even if someone beleived in God, it still doesnt make sense to promise to God you'll live with your friend *forever*. The 3 points I mentioned, you have to find them out before. Remember the high 66% failure rate. It means perhaps, mankind is not *meant* to live with a single member of the opposite sex for the rest of their lives. Thats a very important point which I want to point out too.

March 17, 2004
12:45 pm
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Liverpool Lou
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Surely it is up to the individual, wouldn't it be boring if we all thought the same, which is something you appear to be promoting.

In fact, that just about sums you up.
BORING. Haven't you ANYTHING else to say.

It seems to me that 'thou doth protesteth too much'. If you spent as much time focussing on the good and substantially less obsessing about the bad you may find that women would find you an attractive proposition.

Without meaning to be personal, you do come across as somewhat of a nerd.
Still, it takes all sorts so I'm told.

March 17, 2004
6:17 pm
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I dont mind the personal attacks, all I want is explanation of why promising to live with someone for the rest of your life is rational, even though
- you dont know if you will change later
- you dont know if THEY will change
meaning, there is no gaurantee that the person's love will stay the same for the REST of their lives

Here's a very good example which makes the point:

How can I make a promise to give someone $1000 every month, if I cant gaurantee that I'll be earning atleast that amount every month?

Re-arranging:

When I cant gaurantee to be earning $1000 a month, how can I promise giving someone $1000 every month?

lol. this is really simple. How can I gaurantee anything about the rest of my life? I only know what I am right now and what I might be in the near future.. but for the rest of my life? Please. Remember that 66% is the failure rate of "promised coupling contracts", i.e. marraige.

March 17, 2004
7:32 pm
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gingerleigh
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OK Lou, easy does it with the name-calling. Please keep the posts about the topic, rather than the person. 🙂

Guest: "you're saying that 66% of people are non-commited or emotionally weak? (they end up divorcing and breaking the marraige contract)."

Hm, not exactly. I think you're trying to put words in my mouth here. Let's examine the phenomenon of divorce. Let's take couple A. The wife develops a terrible alcohol addiction and refuses to get help. The husband realizes that she won't get help, and he requests a divorce. Where is emotional weakness and immaturity there? What caused this divorce? Assuming no other abuse factors are at play (big IF), the wife has already violated her marriage vows by putting her addiction first rather than putting her marriage first and agreeing to get help to work through the issues. So yes, this situation shows one of the partners to be emotionally weak and not committed to putting the marriage first. And... it takes two people to make a marriage.

Take couple B. The husband feels neglected, unsexy, taken for granted, and he has an affair. The wife finds out and wants a divorce? So where did that break down? Who knows? Some would point the finger at the husband for cheating, period. Some would point the finger at the husband for not expressing his needs to his wife. Some would even point the finger at the wife for not fostering open communication with her husband before things got to that point. But either way, one or both partners were not willing to put the marriage first, not willing to make that committment.

So maybe your logic *was* right... perhaps that 66% number means that all of those people are not fully committed. Not all divorces are ugly, abusive, or substance-riddled. Some are "friendly". Things "didn't work out". Those people had commitments to something other than the marriage, perhaps job, art, children, past loves... and I am nobody to say whether that's right or wrong.

Similarly, I respect that not everyone believes in God. However, I would expect those people to be respectful of my beliefs even if they don't hold them. I eat meat, but I would never ridicule a vegetarian who chooses not to eat meat because they believe that ethically it is wrong.

Is mankind really "meant" to be anything? Does marriage "make sense"? For some. For others, perhaps not. I guess it's what you want out of life. Does it make sense to believe in God? Hm... I suppose the answer to that question depends on which side of the fence you're on...

March 17, 2004
7:38 pm
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Hole in your logic, Guest: "How can I make a promise to give someone $1000 every month, if I cant gaurantee that I'll be earning atleast that amount every month?"

Well, at least in Seattle, typically people make a promise to give $1000 a month all the time. That is called an apartment lease/rental agreement, and leases are typically signed for 6 months or a year. Is there a guarantee that you'll be making that money 5 months from now? Of course not. Layoffs and firings happen. But you calculate the odds and take the risk.

March 18, 2004
3:58 pm
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ginger
>> The husband realizes that she won't get help, and he requests a divorce. Where is emotional weakness and immaturity there? << The emotional weakness and immatiruty is there in *assuming* that the husband will NOT get alcoholic, or if he will, he WILL be able to get help, etc.etc. When there's no gaurantee that a person will stay away from regular alcohol and be able to get help if they do - is'nt it unwise to make a promise to stay with them for the rest of their lives? >> the wife has already violated her marriage vows by putting her addiction first rather than putting her marriage first and agreeing to get help to work through the issues. << Good point, but marriage is then ideal and humans are not. A building made out of wood, you cant promise to anyone that it'll stay put through thick and thin. The best thing is to say "I'll live them as long as I can and want to". >> The husband feels neglected, unsexy, taken for granted, and he has an affair. << Hm, same example. One cannot assume that the other partner wont go after other people and have affairs with them. Who knows what can happen? Why make the promise to stay together forever then. Its unrealistic. >> So maybe your logic *was* right... perhaps that 66% number means that all of those people are not fully committed. Not all divorces are ugly, abusive, or substance-riddled. Some are "friendly". Things "didn't work out". << Thats even more supporting my case. I bet those couples should have felt foolish when they divorced. Talk about making a promise to live with each other till we die and then breaking that promise just after 2 years (in case of Britney, 55 hours, but thats an extreme. Still it shows the absurdity of marraige, how easily the contract can be broken, how easily the wood house can come down). Marraige *is* emotional. Its based on a strong belief that a person will stay with us for the rest of our lives and we never want to be seperated from them. The reality is, the relationship fires die down and settle down almost always. Its wiser and more mature to say "dear, I like you very much and I'll live with for as long as its pleasurable for both of us and I hope it continue to be that way". But to say straightforward to live forever together.. thats Cinderella, its unrealistic. >> Is mankind really "meant" to be anything? << thats good question, well. Humans have limitations. The tradional Marraige is an ideal thing, "we'll keep loving each other till death do us apart" - thats ideal, thats not human. So I know, humans are atleast not meant to be *ideal*. Marraige is a perfect promise and vision and its unrealistic for that reason. >> Well, at least in Seattle, typically people make a promise to give $1000 a month all the time. That is called an apartment lease/rental agreement, and leases are typically signed for 6 months or a year. << Thats only 6 months.. or a year.. or 30 years (pretty long), and hey, the failure rate of leases or mortgages is definitely much much smaller than 66%. Mortages and leases are a kind of "perfect" promise, like marraige is. Marraige says "loving each other for the rest of our lives until we die". A lease/mortgage says "$900 a month for the next 30 years". Which is the contract which has higher probability to be fulfilled? The lease, right. Thats why, its not like 66% of Mortgage/Lease contracts are broken - but you got 66% of marraige contracts being broken. If I promise to stand on a certain spot for 30 minutes and I promise to stand on a spot for the rest of my life.. there's lot of difference. Rest of my life! How can anyone gaurantee that? I could gaurantee.. ok .. a few weeks at the most, or months.. or a few years, but not rest of my life.

March 18, 2004
4:02 pm
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Sorry, typo in there:

Mortages and leases are *not* a kind of "perfect" promise, like marraige is.

March 19, 2004
10:26 pm
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Good point, twinks. I'm still hoping this marriage will last a lifetime though. Let it never be said that I was pessimistic about EVERYTHING 🙂 Just most things...

March 20, 2004
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twinks, hmmmm.. yes good points.. i didnt think of the short term expectancy of life. But even if its 20 years, thats still a long time. pretty long. I'm glad you're looking for the "just for fun" thing. I think this is the natural sort of relationship- relationships are meant to be fun, life is.

>> Different kinds of relationships for different times of our lives may become the norm. << thats right.. i like the open-endedness of what you said. My gf wants to get married myself and I've told her already that I question the concept of marraige. I'm more comfortable with living for fun too and saying "we'll live together for as long as its fun"

March 25, 2004
3:16 pm
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hi twinks, whatsup

>> There are not many men around who are prepared to give that much thought to the whys and wherefores of life. << you got it .. abd i get hated for asking questions of why and stuff. but its ok, i keep going on. I gotta get my questions answered (i ask a lot to myself too), I cant just ignore it and say "well.. thats how things are". >> Otherwise how could he know that he had been successful in perpetuating his genes? << that may be right and *one* of the reasons for marraige, the written contract. maybe it came from wealthy men who wanted to give their wealth to someone after they died (someonoe talked about this before, but i dont fully understand). but anyway, this thread was "why marraige for life" and not "why marraige at all" which is a more complicated issue. i made a thread about it, thought and thought and discussed but gave up in the end for the time being. anyway, its good. have fun in the mother's day

March 25, 2004
4:46 pm
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Actually I was listening to the radio on the way into work this morning, and a person was on explaining his views against gay marriages. He felt that marriage itself was designed for having and raising children, and cited a study that showed that children fared best in life when raised by his biological parents who were together in a loving and committed relationship. Marriage as a contract makes it harder to walk away from a relationship, so perhaps it is there to help ensure that children produced through the marriage are cared for in the best possible way. It's not a surefire way to keep parents together, but it does make it harder to step away.

October 6, 2004
4:06 am
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Why promise someone that you will be together as long as you live? I believe that marriage shows how much you truly love another person... You care so deeply that you will never ever leave them. You are committed to working on whatever problems life may bring your way...and even when the relationship stops being fun, (which all do sometimes) you are promising to be there for that person when no one else will. Marriage is the first union that God established for people on this Earth, and He made it to give us just the slightest HINT of how deep His love is for us. Humans are not perfect... There are reasons to leave a marriage: When there is abuse, and refusal of help... etc. To be totally honest, I believe that if you are with someone, and you say that you love them, and you really do, then you should have no problems with getting married to them. Otherwise, I think you don't really love that person. Isn't love supposed to be for always? Or, is true love something that we can actually fall in and out of? If so, that scares me. But I think that true love is a choice, not a feeling.

October 6, 2004
5:46 pm
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Guest_guest.

Where are you? This is your opportunity!

October 6, 2004
6:40 pm
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bel
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LOL Tez!

October 7, 2004
6:06 pm
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Bel.

In pushing his respective points of view, I think that Guest_guest has abandoned us in order to cater for the needs of more receptive folk. 🙂

October 7, 2004
11:23 pm
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workinonit
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Marriage,love....marriage is a very concrete response to a nebulous idea!

October 8, 2004
2:12 pm
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SweetAmanda
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That's too bad... Hey, he did say his girlfriend wanted him to settle down... Maybe he ran off and got married! =) *lol* Amanda

October 8, 2004
10:42 pm
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Cici
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marriage is a financial contract between two individuals. it's a way to reduce taxes or whatever.

if you really want to be with someone you don't need a piece of paper and pay $87 to the government.

Conversely, marriage obviously isn't any indicator that you will stay together, with the divroce rate as it is.

it's a cultural thing, a social ideal.

October 9, 2004
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workinonit
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So cici what do you think the next social paradigm is for relationships? Seems like things are shifting from the traditional.

Do you see men and women ever finding a common ground of sorts?

October 9, 2004
11:22 pm
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marriage ugh.

Highly overrated.

so is cohabitation.

"autonomy and independence must be preserved. We will share our lives with one another, not meld them into one that causes misery and resentment.

You are free to stay over every once in a while and I'll stay over at your place every once in awhile. Otherwise, you sleep at your place, I'll sleep at mine. You take care of your finances, I'll take care of mine, and if either of us needs help, we can count on one another as long as it's not too extreme.

Each maintains their own personal friendships, even when that means doing something with the friend while you do something else.

Flirt away and build thy self-esteem. However, absolutely no licking and no doinking of others."

Now, THAT'S a contract.

free

October 9, 2004
11:23 pm
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Oh, and by the way, if I have to PROVE to you that I love you, then forget it.

My actions speak loud enough. Deafness I cannot fix.

free

October 10, 2004
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Free,

Okay, but are you sure that you aren't just putting up walls so that you can't get too emotionally involved? You do have some good points, but to truly love someone is to be vunerable to being hurt by them. ~Amanda~

October 10, 2004
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I don't see my little contract as puting up walls amanda. I see it as setting boundaries so that the two of us can share a life together without misery. I would be devastated if my honey left me or did something to hurt me. I love him so much.

The "well if you truly loved him and he you, the two of you would marry and live together as one"- I don't buy that. That's someone else's definition of love. Some of what has caused me to fall so deeply in love with him is that he is proud of me and the way I live my life, wanting to be a part of it. Not wanting to BE it. I don't want to BE his life either. Our lives have different components, and we walk together, sharing them with one another. It's truly a wonderful experience.

I miss him right now, as he is on a cruise to Bermuda with his family. I would have loved to have gone, but work prohibits. So I wish him the best of time.

Perhaps these boundaries CAN be called walls. In their safety, I am able to love him fully. In their safety, he is able to love me fully. Not control, but love. No squashig, or smothering, or controlling.

Just loving freely, safely, and without fear.

free

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