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Ma Strong....i was wondering.
February 23, 2009
5:45 pm
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tree_hugs_4life
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I'm just lost on this. I never said guest was a narcissist. I didn't even bring guest up. Shaney did.

MsG was asking MaStrong what she saw or meant and it's become a big tadoo. Weird.

I know I wanna understand, I wanna know what she saw, what she thinks. That happens to be something I'm trying to learn about. But it seems the topic has been shut down.

peace

February 23, 2009
6:19 pm
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Shaney
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When I mentioned "G" in my post, I wasn't referring to guest. Maybe you assumed that I was.

February 23, 2009
7:20 pm
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Oh! My bad. I had just been reading one of guests threads and so when I saw the reference to G and his thread, I DID immediately think of guest.

My brain gets so dang scrambled sometimes. Just doin' too much and thinkin' about too much at one time. Sorry about that mix up.

peace

February 23, 2009
7:26 pm
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Ma

has the ability to energize us to reflect and sometimes even defend who we are and what we are going through.

To me it doesn't matter if she is right or wrong.

She makes me think.

littlespirit

February 23, 2009
11:31 pm
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StronginHim77
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Dear MsGuided,

Sorry that I did not respond earlier, but I do not come to the Liberation Brew side very often. I know that you are trying to learn as much as possible about the "red flags" of narcissistic traits/behaviors. I also want to emphasize that any individual can exhibit narcissistic "traits" without being a full-blown, diagnosed narcissist. It is a matter of "degrees."

However, I am well-acquainted with the red flag traits of narcissism, due to my upbringing, two marriages to diagnosed narcissists, as well as my years of college studies which entailed over 30 hours towards my counseling degree and licensing.

Here is a partial listing of "N" red flags from the postings which you referenced:

The poster indicated that he had "moved her [his pregnant wife's] things into our spare bed room..." This is a highly controlling, shaming and dehumanizing act which is frequently carried out by male N's.

Look for "verbage" cues. For example, when questioned about the problematic CD's of the poster's wife, his response incorporated the wording, "her EXCUSE," rather than the wording, "her EXPLANATION."

Also note the highly pseudo-intellecutal (let's use the biggest, most intimidating, hyper-intellectual words possible) verbage used by the poster when any of his actions or motive were challenged, questioned or disparaged. Huge overaction, expressed via essays saying (essentially) NOTHING concrete. Just lots of fancy talk. Classic N behavior.

Other N traits: taking notes on his wife's behavior(s); presenting the exwife (whose religious beliefs/values clashed with his own) with nearly two years of studied out rationalizations as to why her religious beliefs were WRONG. Attacking and belittling the religious beliefs of a spouse is very common in abusers and extremely typical of N's; critical of his wife's shopping efforts ("...when she does [shop], she goes to the BIG box stores and loads up on things that we use but not in those quantities. This is an extremely common trait in N's. The purchases of their spouses are ALWAYS wrong somehow. Never praised and never appreciated. They must always FIND FAULT.

The poster was shocked by some of the doctor's observations on the poster's behaviors, NONE OF WHICH he openly shared with us on his thread. Again, negative observations or comments are either viciously counter-attacked (how dare you question me or consider me less than perfect?) or dismissed. More classic N behavior patterns.

Alot of references to the grandiosity of his business (dealing with "royalty;" negotiating multi-million dollar deals). Again, this grandiosity (and desire to align themselves with people of stature and/or importance such as "royalty" is an N trait. They must always impress others and be looked up to. Always.

Look for contradictory statements. (Note: an N will not realize he/she has contradicted him/herself in the same paragraph.) Example from the poster in question: "If you love someone and something is upsetting to them, then nothing should stop you from making changes where possible." Yet this poster will not consider relocating, so his wife can be closer to her family and friends. It is not negotiable.

More contradictions: The poster wrote, "I agree with your assessment, indeed I did know to a certain extent that she [his wife] was/is immature. On the other hand with time and experience people do if they are willing mature." Then continues, "I am perplexed at your comments that in your words 'You want her to be different and are putting her down for being EXACTLY WHO SHE WAS WHEN YOU MET HER...at no time throughout my submissions have I ever suggested that I want to 'change her.'" He totally fails to see how he has contradicted himself. Another N-trait.

Another posting: "...in time it is my hope that [his wife] appreciates that there are more creative ways to express ourselves without having to be offensive" and continues with remarks about her "blue collar" origins which differ so markedly from his own "circle." Another classic N-flag. Denigrate the class or caliber of the N's spouse, while neatly withholding ANY discussion or revelation of his own social origins. It is important to all N's that they appear superior to their hapless spouses in every way.

Let me also point out that he makes constant references to his fear that he is his wife's "second choice." To any N, this would be anathema. They must be admired. They must be the best. They must be perfect and above all others. Should their spouse/partner/children/social contacts or fellow employees fail to regard them in this light, they will be immediately reprimanded, punished, dealt with and/or dismissed (such as removing her from the master bedroom and moving her things to a spare bedroom). Again, classic N trait/behavior.

Lastly, let me add a comment from his wife's email which deeply touched my heart: "You [her husband, the poster] constantly try to prove yourself correct at all costs." This is -- again -- the N pattern. They must be right. They must be perfect. To admit anything less is unthinkable and unbearable.

Initially, I indicated to the poster that "your postings demonstrate highly narcissistic traits." I still stand on that statement, based on the foregoing observations. I am not diagnosing...simply sharing with you my observations, gleaned from his own postings.

- Ma Strong

February 24, 2009
12:13 am
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tree_hugs_4life
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ma, thank you so much for responding to this thread.

peace

February 24, 2009
8:27 am
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lollipop3
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Hi Tree_hugs,

No worries, it's very easy to get confused reading all the threads on site. I think it happens to all of us at one time or another 🙂

Lolli

February 24, 2009
9:40 am
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MsGuided
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Thanks ((Ma))

That helped A LOT! ;0)

February 24, 2009
1:38 pm
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red blonde
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Ma -

Ns will go to therapists, not to change themselves, but in hopes of changing the behavior of others, to maintaining control over the situation and others, and to be 'proven' right! And if the therapist does not agree with them, they will dismiss them, what they say and probably will look for one that DOES agree with them.

Ns have an obsession with trying to find any way possible to make another conform to the N's image of a partnership, marriage, relationship or life should be and to be in control at all times ...of what others say, do, think and whom others can have as friends.

The spying still persists..and now there seems to be a question as to whether she is pregnant or not because no the pregnancy test packages where found in the wastebasket of 'her' bathroom! Perhaps this is a way of looking for an 'out'???

Ns can be very 'crazy-making'.

My xbf would bitch and complain about not having enough money. When I suggested that I go to work (even though I had savings), he would say that he makes enough money to support the two of us...yet in the next breath - he would accuse me of 'driving' him into bankruptcy!

Or like my mother, she would always bitch and complain that I didn't do what she wanted. When I tried, she would not allow me, then she would turn around and say to everyone..."I don't know why she hates me so, I do everything for her!"

That reminds me of someone doing all the 'house work' and apparently his wife tried. Either he would either not let her, not like the way she did it or it was not up to his standards....then do it himself...and then complain that she doesn't do any cleaning.

February 24, 2009
5:07 pm
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StronginHim77
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Red -

You nailed it accurately on all points brought forward in your posting. All excellent and practical observations.

Thank you.

- Ma Strong

February 25, 2009
2:38 am
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red blonde
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Ma -

Even before I got the 'insight' about my mother being a N personality (amongst others!), I was always reminded of a scene in "The Wiz" with the crows...when one of the crows said (or sang..can't remember) "You can't win! You can't lose! You can't even get out of the game!" That was how I felt when my mother was in one of her 'crazy making' modes!

Ma, you did a really great job explaining!

Thank you!

Red!

February 25, 2009
11:21 am
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Hi Everyone,

I posted on the "CD of the 2 of them" thread. Please, it is important that everyone who continues to post on this thread, please go and read the post.

Diagnosing is not permitted on this website, for any reason.

We are here to talk about ourselves, not others. The site is to learn about ourselves. If you learn something about YOURSELF (not someone in your own life, or someone on these threads), please talk about that experience. We are NOT here to tell others what we think we have learned about THEM. If you read something and have a personal insight about YOURSELF (not about your mom or husband), then please share those thoughts. Those are the primary purpose of this website.

If you wish to talk to others about their issues or problems, it should be done in a clarifying fashion ie: ask how certain actions or behaviors make them feel. Ask someone what kinds of behaviors they have when they feel a certain way, etc... this brings about insight, which is the ONLY WAY someone learns about themselves. Posting judgments or diagnoses are not helpful, and not permitted.

Focus on ourselves. Only.

Thanks,
Site Coordinator

February 25, 2009
12:08 pm
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MsGuided
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So that's why I had this needling feeling inside.

My bad!

Ok back to the mirror! :0)

February 26, 2009
11:53 am
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Hepburn
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LOL

February 26, 2009
1:34 pm
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_anonymous
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If someone posts something here that gives you a strong reaction that is a defense mehanism called Personalization. It means that you have lost site of the fact that what a person is posting about is not about you it is about them it is not happening to you it is happening to them.

For some a post can cause a post traumatic stress response if it triggers a bad memory.

But, if you realize that the person who created a thread did not do it with bad intentions, with the intentions of harming someone here then you wont take it personally.

As far as diagnosing is concerned it is my belief that in my state anyways you have to be either a licensed MD or a licensed psychologist. It is also against HIPPA not to mention the hippocratic oath along with professional ethics to diagnose someone without a license to practice or a persons persmission.

Also to the best of my knowledge professional therapists always treat people with respect and dignity and do not discriminate against someone or humilate them because they may have a mental disability.

I dont trust anyone who claims to be working towards a professional license to do therapy who would bully, intimidate, or gossip about someone who is having problems and reaching out for help. As this is cleary a deviation from the normal standard of care that one would expect to see from a professionally trained person.

In my state a person has to undergo therapy themselves before they can become licensed to practice. So they can oversome any issues they have before they practice.

What is cool about this site is we have had people from the counseling profession come and post and recieve help from us, cause after all they're people to.

February 26, 2009
3:23 pm
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bevdee
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Hey Destinystar

HIPAA, the Health information and Portability Account Act, covers security and confidentiality of patient information. I'm not sure what HIPPA is and how either tie in with the Hippocratic Oath?

You bring up a good point, something I don't know. Does the Hippocratic Oath extend to licensed psychologists, or religious "counselors"? A psychiatrist, of course, because that is an MD, but the way it reads, I'm not sure if that applies to therapists, social workers and counselors.

I agree with this -
"If someone posts something here that gives you a strong reaction that is a defense mehanism called Personalization. It means that you have lost site of the fact that what a person is posting about is not about you it is about them it is not happening to you it is happening to them. "
and "I dont trust anyone who claims to be working towards a professional license to do therapy who would bully, intimidate, or gossip about someone who is having problems and reaching out for help. As this is cleary a deviation from the normal standard of care that one would expect to see from a professionally trained person."

Everyone has triggers, some have flashbacks and all of us project to some degree, so I see why therapy and self-exploration would be beneficial to someone interested in counseling others.

And if someone claims to be a counselor, on an anonymous site, I would take that with a grain of salt- we have no way of knowing that what someone claims to be is what they are. You said "professional therapists ". I suppose someone could be a licensed therapist or counelor and adhere to the code of ethics they are expected to adhere to, but it might be different with the filter of the anonymous screen, couldn't it? I'm more reticent in person than I am here. I haven't divulged everything about myself.

Those self-proclaimed "professionals" really aren't being too professional if they are naming and diagnosing a poster they have never seen in person, or in their insistence about the conclusions they have drawn about the poster. That in itself raises questions in my mind.

We also have to remember that no one except the site coordinator is officially posting for the site, and even the SC does not claim to act as a counselor - at this site.

Grain of salt.

February 26, 2009
11:54 pm
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Hi Bevdee- Always a pleasure to hear from you. My angst really isnt about who can and can't diagnose cause I could care less. Its about using a diagnoses in such a way to harm someone. Its about cyber bullying. Its about balatant ridicule. Its about someone that would use advance knowledge to hurt someone else...deliberatly.

I agree with you. Have to take what people say with a grain of salt.

I love what the site coordinator wrote and I am using it as a guide so I can get the most out of this place. Cause sometimes I feel like a misguided missile.

Bless you for all the time you have taken to help me out and get me out of my darkest, deepest depth of denial and ignorance. You have a very enlightening way about you. In my opionin a corner stone around here.

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