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life after death / near death experiences
April 26, 2007
9:32 am
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I was given this very nice link:

http://www.skeptic.com/reading.....rlife.html

"The Great Afterlife Debate:
Michael Shermer v. Deepak Chopra"

April 29, 2007
11:34 pm
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Michael Shermer states:

"... claims are made that there is scientific evidence for life after death,"

I don't think that there is any scientific evidence of life after death. Experiments to replicate NDE's upon demand are not ethical. This is not to say that statistical probabilities cannot be obtained that put certain occurences beyond the likelihood of being pure chance - whatever that means. Much of social science is based upon such statistics and is often proven wrong. When I studied Psychology at uni the lecturer restrained us from using references over 10 years old. The reason he gave was the advances rendered older research redundant. Since I graduated 12 years ago this implies anything that I learnt then might well be redundant. Yet the social sciences claim to be scientific. Thus scientific evidence is not the be all end all but only our best shot using our intellect. But the intellect is just one way of knowing. There are others.

I have an electrical engineering text book dated 1879. It is absolutely fascinating how 'wrong' science was then in much of their understanding of electrical principles. Of course such errors are conveniently discarded as time passed. What makes us think science has everything right now? Hmmm! The scientiufic method, when applicable, is the best we have at this stage for arriving at relative truths.

However, when people are convicted of murder in a court of law, quite often they are not convicted upon scientific evidence, but upon the testimony of eye witnesses and other evidence of a non-scientific nature. The key premise is the existence of evidence that places the guilt beyond 'reasonable' doubt - not beyond all doubt.

When it comes to matters beyond the realm of science, such as life after death, demanding scientific evidence in order to establish probabilities is as rediculous as demanding scientific evidence as proof of guilt in a court of law.

Thus when one is beyond the realm of science, as is the case in an NDE and oftentimes the case of non-scientific requirements of the law, then non-scientific, anecdotal evidence from witnesses becomes paramount in making a personal non-scientific judgement as to the probability of life after life.

The interesting thing here is that there is not one shred of scientific evidence proving scientifically or conclusively that death is the end of all life thereafter - none.

The onus is always put back upon those who claim there is 'Life after Life' to prove it scientifically to those who don't believe there is. Just as it is in a court of law, the onus of proof lies with those who would demand it to find it, i.e. the prosecution's onus of finding proof of guilt - a task beyond science in regard to life after life.

Thus those who claim that life after life is 'bullshit', have the burden of proof placed upon them just as much as they would place it upon those who claim that there is life after life. In both cases the proof of a scientific nature cannot be found either way IMHO.

As for claiming that in all cases 'hope of surviving death' is the basis for believing that there is life after life, this is unproven, unsubstantiated and arrant nonsense.

In my case alone, I fear the repercussions of my past mind conditioning far more than the total extinguishment of my consciousness. In other words, I fear the pain of the dying process which I have witnessed in my mother's long protracted death. I fear the self-judging that I suspect occurs with the life review during the dying process. If death was like going under in an anesthetic and never regaining consciousness, I'd rather that anytime than what I believe will happen to me.

I'm told by a Catholic Priest relative who attends the side of many dying people that at the very end most people die peacefully. It is the going through the five stages of dying that produces most of the fear.

I have had the experience of dying many times in my diagnosed sleep apnea respiration failures. Only the fact that my RAS system kick started me into arousal at the point of the very early stage of dying that I am here to write this. I took advantage of this regular occurrence to program myself upon going to sleep to ask myself the question:"Why do I fear dying?" The answer that I received and brought back into consciousness was:" I fear losing the plot." I fear losing the experiencing of all of the people, places and things in my present life to which I am highly attached. As the body deteriorates and the 5 stages of dying are passed through, these attachments are lost in most cases, but not all, and dying comes easily and quite naturally - so I'm told by those who should know. Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross has written much highly accredited reference material and many books on this subject.

April 30, 2007
11:41 am
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My oldest son, claims to have seen an uncle at the age of 6. He described him perfectly having never seen him. The same son, now 25 while in CO a month ago, an old mining town/ghost town, went beneath an existing building...and, while walking back upstairs someone shoved him hard in the back, as in pushing him up and out of there. Jokingly, he said, 'do you think it was my guardian angel?' jokingly I jumped at the opportunity and said, 'yeah, telling you to get on with your life and quit hanging out with the dead, to get out of the basement.'

I have an old friend who wrote a book 'Ghostly Secrets', that I have never read. She used to exorcise spirits. Whether or not they are ghosts or not, I don't know, but there have been some interesting discussions here in Libs about ghosts. I don't know what they are. I hope to never see one, although I may have in the past....but admitting it as RW says, it gives me the heebie-jeebies!

April 30, 2007
11:43 am
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WRONG POST..I meant to post this on the ghost encounters thread. Now that is weird.

April 30, 2007
5:22 pm
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Rather than comment on the interesting reading written above at this time, I want to tell about a lecture I heard this morning about NDE's. It is a true story of a man who was taking a tread mill test to determine if he had heart trouble. When the tread mill went to 'jog' the man jogged, but his heart stopped and he fell to his death. Dr. Rawlings who tells this story, ran into to try to resusitate this gentleman. The first time he was resusitated his eyes were open wide and and he screamed in terror, "I AM IN HELL!!" then he died again. The Dr. tried to resusitate him again, did so, and the man screamed again, "I AM IN HELL!!", then he died again. The Dr. again goes to resusitate him and does so, only this time the man screamed,'Please don't send me back, everytime you bring me back I go back to Hell!' The Dr. looked into his eyes and knew by the terror in them that this man had been or seen something way beyond any normal realm that he was familiar with. The man died again, and was brought back. He stayed alive this last time and was transported to a hospital. A few weeks later, the Dr. thought it would be interesting to go and talk to the man to find out 'what hell is like'. The Dr. was expecting to hear about fire, a man with pointed ears and horns, but when he questioned the man, he did not remember any of it and said, "What hell?"

It was determined by the medical field from this experience, that the human brain will block out such traumatic experiences. It was determined that this man had been somewhere those few times he died, but blocked it from his memory. It was then determined that this is why there are so many more pleasant experiences told of NDE's rather than negative, as we will be more inclined to remember the good experience of the traumatic. Not rocket science, but humans are predictable.

Thought it to be an interesting lecture!

May 1, 2007
7:26 pm
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On my way.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven." - John Milton.

Death does not change that ultimate truth.

May 1, 2007
7:33 pm
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Tez,
Beautifully and truthfully noted.

And, home-made humble pie is tasting better and better.

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